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#104717 - 04/15/02 12:32 PM Pinan Versus Seisan
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, I've been through this kind of topic two other times, but I've another way to put it . . .

In training, how many of you practice the "beginner's" kata, such as Pinan?

For those that do, a question: What benefits do you feel this type of set gives you as a martial artist?

For those that don't: Why?

I've been through styles which teach kata similar to the Pinan and Passai, and am currently in Isshinry, which teaches in a fashion that's a lot easier for me.

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#104718 - 01/16/03 12:49 PM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
gojuwarrior1 Offline
tougher than you

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 1178
Loc: East Coast, USA
my sensei makes us do them every time,he said there just a basic form getting the body ready for the more advanced ones to follow,the only benifit that i get out of it it just a loosining of my body.in goju we have 4 diff. pinans.

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#104719 - 01/21/03 07:55 AM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
I would like to add that variuos OKINAWAN styles teach the kata's in differant order.
case in point I trained in the late 80's in RYUKYU KEMPO and the 3 niahachi and pinans were the fist I learned. After a lapse in training and moving to a new state I started in RYUKYU KEMPO and these are not taught until after first dan The siesan kata is one of the first taught. I would likee toi hear the toughts everyone has on this. thanks

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#104720 - 01/21/03 01:28 PM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
senseilou Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2082
Loc: Glendale, Az.
I'm kinda in the same boat. Actually the first kata I learned was Juroko but that was a different story.we learn the Pinons first, actually have a couple proir to the Pinons, Shinsei and Chino kata,then all the Pinons. We learn the Nihanshi's at Shodan, yet a school in the same Organization, do the Nihanshi's first. I have heard that the Nihanshi's are taught early because there is not much Ashi Sabaki(footwork) to learn. However I think the Nihanshi's have alot to offer and rather have an advanced student look at them then a beginner.

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#104721 - 01/23/03 09:35 PM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
sanseiryu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 18
Loc: los angeles ,california
I have to ask you what is a beginner kata?
What is an advanced kata? In Okinawan Gojuryu, Sanchin was traditionaly the first kata taught. As simple as it looks, it is considered to be the hardest to get right. In Isshinryu it is about the fourth kata taught. Today, Gekisai 1 an 2 are taught as the beginning katas and they are by no means easy or simple to learn. In many Shorin schools, Naihanchi is the first kata taught, in Isshinryu the second. The Pinans and Heians are similarly difficult to do correctly as each builds upon the one prior to it. Uechiryu originaly had three kata. Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiru. Five more were added to "round out" the system, to connect the three kata. When I studied Isshinryu many years ago, I had to practice the Pinans and a "T" kata, a very simplified pattern kata as well as the normal Isshinryu upper and lower drills. If you don't place much value upon "beginning" kata, it's easy to dismiss their usefulness. If for example Vash, if you began to study Shorinryu Pinan 4, it could help you in your study of Seisan, Wansu and Kusanku as it contains elements from all of those kata.
George

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#104722 - 01/24/03 04:13 AM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sanseiryu:
I have to ask you what is a beginner kata?
What is an advanced kata? In Okinawan Gojuryu, Sanchin was traditionaly the first kata taught. As simple as it looks, it is considered to be the hardest to get right. In Isshinryu it is about the fourth kata taught. Today, Gekisai 1 an 2 are taught as the beginning katas and they are by no means easy or simple to learn. In many Shorin schools, Naihanchi is the first kata taught, in Isshinryu the second. The Pinans and Heians are similarly difficult to do correctly as each builds upon the one prior to it. Uechiryu originaly had three kata. Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiru. Five more were added to "round out" the system, to connect the three kata. When I studied Isshinryu many years ago, I had to practice the Pinans and a "T" kata, a very simplified pattern kata as well as the normal Isshinryu upper and lower drills. If you don't place much value upon "beginning" kata, it's easy to dismiss their usefulness. If for example Vash, if you began to study Shorinryu Pinan 4, it could help you in your study of Seisan, Wansu and Kusanku as it contains elements from all of those kata.
George
[/QUOTE]If U studied Isshinryu,UWld know, That Seisan is the first kata tought in isshinryu.& Then,Seuchin,Naihunchin,Sanchin,Chinto, KUsanku & Sunsu. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#104723 - 01/24/03 09:31 AM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Here again is the point I brought up. Also from style to style the names are the same however the moves are not. I have seen some where they are close and others that have nothing in common. So the question of WHAT IS AN ADVANCED KATA? comes back. Perhaps the breakdown can help , however this to is open to many points of view. Is there a document that backtracks through the variuos masters/styles to perhaps the point of creation for each.

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#104724 - 01/24/03 06:43 PM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
sanseiryu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 18
Loc: los angeles ,california
isshinryu kid wrote:

>>If U studied Isshinryu,UWld know, That Seisan is the first kata tought in isshinryu.& then, Seuchin, Naihunchin, Sanchin, Chinto, KUsanku & Sunsu.<<

Yes, I did know that. Thanks. But the dojo where I trained did incorporate the Pinan series. George

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#104725 - 01/24/03 06:56 PM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
isshinryu kid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 618
Loc: Knoxville tennessee u.s.a
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sanseiryu:
isshinryu kid wrote:

>>If U studied Isshinryu,UWld know, That Seisan is the first kata tought in isshinryu.& then, Seuchin, Naihunchin, Sanchin, Chinto, KUsanku & Sunsu.<<

Yes, I did know that. Thanks. But the dojo where I trained did incorporate the Pinan series. George
[/QUOTE]No Insult was ment,BUt Grandmaster shimabuku,Replaced The pinan katas,With charts 1 & 2. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#104726 - 01/24/03 07:16 PM Re: Pinan Versus Seisan
sanseiryu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 18
Loc: los angeles ,california
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempocos:
Here again is the point I brought up. Also from style to style the names are the same however the moves are not. I have seen some where they are close and others that have nothing in common. So the question of WHAT IS AN ADVANCED KATA? comes back. Perhaps the breakdown can help , however this to is open to many points of view. Is there a document that backtracks through the variuos masters/styles to perhaps the point of creation for each. [/QUOTE]


Probably not, as kata and movements or techniques were difficult to translate onto paper. The Bubishi seems to be one that did attempt to record the techniques of karate. Perhaps the earliest mentions of Okinawan kata appears to be the record of an exhibition in Okinawa in 1867 where the katas Seisan, Suparinpei and perhaps Shisochin were performed. See the Dragon Times article by Charles Swift.
And the question of what is an advanced kata is still puzzling. Chojun Miyagi taught each student Sanchin and then only one other kata before WW2. So many of his students only ever practiced two kata. The second kata could have been Suparinpei, Seisan, Seipai or Kururunfa, which are considered to be the most advanced kata in Gojuryu now. Then the various students would then learn kata from each other. It was only after the war that he began teaching the curriculum in Gojuryu as it is today.
George Yanase

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