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#104700 - 04/11/02 11:55 PM Seiunchin Bunkai
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Although I do a shorin based style, I am learning seiunchin at the moment. What is the bunkai?

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#104701 - 04/12/02 12:53 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Joe,

May I ask which version of Seiunchin Kata are you learning, Goju's, Shitoryu's, or Isshinryu's versions.

In particular which movements are you interested in. Any kata can have a wide range of applications.

If you can give details to version and or movements in question, perhaps I can offer some suggestions.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

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#104702 - 04/12/02 06:56 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Well thankyou Mr Smith, I have also been reading your bushibi article and have gotten a little more out of Seiunchin and my cirriculum kata.

The Seiunchin I am learning is Shito Ryu, as I am learning of a Shukokai practicioner.

I would be (mainly)intersted in the low stances and hand movements not common to a Shorin based style. probably also kyusho stuff because lcoks and throws are usually what I first get out of a kata.

Also, your Bubishi article mentions a few applications for Passai. Which Passai?

Thankyou, once again.

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#104703 - 04/14/02 07:56 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Joe,

For the Shito-ryu based Seiunchin Kata, I think the first place to look would be Mabuni Kenwa's 1934 book on Sanchin and Seiunchin Kata.

The opening section where you execute a double down block, followed by an open right hand parry and then a left spear hand strike, for application he shows:

1. if the opponent attacks with a left punch, back up the left foot and parry with the down block.
[Notice he's moving in the reverse of the kata movement.]
2. if the opponent attads with a right punhc, parry in open hand to the joint of their arm, while bringing the arm up from the bottom, then turn the right hand over, grab their arm and pull it towards you while you throw a right uppercut into their chest.
[Notice he's chagned the spear hand to a strike.]

You can't get more traditional Shito Ryu than its founder. The most interesting thing is how the applications he discusses (shows) while based on the overall intent of the kata, aren't necessarly 100% the same as the kata either.

I suspect that was a basic principle he was choosing to underscore, unless he was showing that the actual applications had nothing to do with the exact kata movement. Which might be a reflection of real old-style paranoia about keeping secrets, too.

Hope this helps.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

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#104704 - 04/14/02 11:46 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Thankyou, Mr Smith, but what is the name of Manubi's text?

Is it available online?

[This message has been edited by joesixpack (edited 04-14-2002).]

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#104705 - 04/15/02 07:43 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Joe,

The book is 'Goshin Karate Kempo' published in 1934.

It is not availble in English and I translated a French Text of the book for that information.

To the best of my knowledge it is not available on the internet.

It was his first book, and Sanchin Kata, Seiunchin Kata and Seiunchin Kata Bunkai were done with line drawings.

That same year he published a second text, 'Karate-Kempo, the defense and the attack, Study of Kata Sepai'. Also only available in Japanese and French, but in that text he demonstrates the kata and its bunkai with photographs of himself.

I'm unsure if there will ever be a market for commercial presentation of this material.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

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#104706 - 12/14/05 11:44 AM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: Victor Smith]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
bump

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#104707 - 12/15/05 12:48 AM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The bunkai I was taught from goju version seiunchin is defense from attacks from behind. Throws,locks,etc,but it's really hard to desrcibe online. Perhaps in a video!!!!
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#104708 - 12/15/05 04:10 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I agree with you Brian.

I'll throw a couple things out there....opening move Seiunchin bunkai:
* lapel grab release.
* double wrist grab release.
* defense against someone trying to steal your coffee.
* bla
* bla
* and bla

There are plenty of 'if X then do Y' applications...most of them sound very effective in text... look effective in pictures.... seem effective on video. feel effective (hopefully) in training.

What are applications anyway? are they X vs.Y applications of kata movements or are they applications of kata principals?

The example movement (opening to Goju-Seiunchin) principal is what exactly? (first of all, there are two alternative openings - one, the most common, is closed fists drop down into shiko dachi: http://www.infonegocio.com/shihan/morio.gif the other one is a secret. lol)

I understand the open move to be an application of off-balancing in a downward direction. thats it. thats all you need to know to be able to come up with N-teen SD applications.

The popular bunkai for this is crap.
If someone was throtling my neck, or even double grabbing my lapel...I wouldn't be grabbing the wrists and pulling down- I'd probably kick or break the hold violently - and why drop your weight down first anyway?...looks easier than it is against a resisting opponent. Depending on your and opponents position, you might be better off breaking the grip with your elbows from the top...THEN perhaps grabbing and off-balancing.

so what is the first movement then? I suspect it was altered over the years for posturing, but the basic principal is there. break a grip, grab, off-balance. The alternative beginning shows the breaking of the grip ...the other version does not.

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#104709 - 12/15/05 06:09 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: Ed_Morris]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Ed, spot on mate. I was thinking just the same but couldn't be arsed to type it out.

BTW I also know the "secret" opening moves and their Mcapplications.
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#104710 - 12/16/05 12:10 AM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I totally understand the bla bla bla applications.

The first move should not be the crap application,obviously. One possibility is a bearhug defense from behind,step out to 45 to off balance him while grabbing the wrist or breaking the hold,turn it into a wristlock or break opening a neck/throat strike. It's not one I've been able to pull off very pretty when someone resists. But it shows principles behind the applications that can be used in any similar positions.
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#104711 - 12/16/05 01:43 AM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Let me give you some secret applications.

Opening move stepping forward can be interpreted as a clinch (grabbing behind the head/neck) dropping down followed by knee strike jumping up.
When being grabbed by the vest (lapel) put both hands on top of one of his hands and drop down backward, puts a lock on his wrist while pressing down, take over on fingers and break them. (I have used this succesfully in free sparring with resistance but not the breaking part).
When hands go upward, can be release of a wrist grab, but more important is the forward or backward step to disbalance (forward, opponent standing in front) or throw (backward, oponent grabbing from the back). Could also just be blocking with harai uke and positioning with body shifting to the side of opponent. Could also pull opponent forward (you stepping back) while first pushing his arm upward, grabbing his wrist, and pulling down in harai motion while stepping backward putting stress on his shoulder. The shiko dachi could also be a knee press into opponents knee from the outside (very nasty thing, but only works on static opponents up till now).

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#104712 - 12/16/05 11:57 PM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
The same move can be used against a double lapel grab from the front. Your right shoulder can torque his left hand, then slide up his arm a little until your weight unbalances him.
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#104713 - 01/05/07 09:50 AM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: Ironfoot]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Bump

So...how about an evalution of THIS school's 'version' of Seiunchin? Can you find the bunkai in this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWRnpUNPxnI&mode=related&search

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#104714 - 01/05/07 11:08 AM Re: Seiunchin Bunkai [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm sure I could find bunkai in the similar things I practice. The super low weird stances and robotic movements were way out there. A lot of added moves to a traditional kata for showmanship.
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