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#103894 - 10/26/04 09:36 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andrei78:
When a big guy charges at you it may be good to just stick out a side kick. The guy will run into it and it WILL hurt him.[/QUOTE]

It will also have him charging into you just as you have one foot up in the air. Since the premise is that this is a big opponent the other result will be that, at best, you'll be knocked off balance by his built up momentum. At worst you'll be knocked to the ground. Not the best scenarios when you're dealing with a big guy.

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#103895 - 10/26/04 10:08 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've seen an aikido move that you step to the side and rotate his shoulders. He goes to the ground. don't know how effective it is against a resisting opponent...

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#103896 - 11/10/04 01:15 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yo. Why has no one siezed on this before (someone wrote it earlier. I should give them props, but i forget who it was and this thread is damn long to skim...) A simple front push kick with the leading leg (or trailing leg if you have time) delivered to the hip abdomen or chest will do the trick EVERY time someone rushes you with punches.

Side kick is of course a stupid idea because you will get thrown on your back. Ducking the punch(es) or kick(s), stepping in and establishing control in a clinch and take-down situation is also a good move. You said you've trained jiu-jitsu..., USE it. Smaller guys have the advantage on the ground, especially when they've just thrown their heavier opponent on their head and have taken the top position.

This is perfect advice. No one dare contest it.
-Mauibum

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#103897 - 11/10/04 06:38 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi mauibum

I had a couple of comments on the points you've made;

"A simple front push kick with the leading leg (or trailing leg if you have time) delivered to the hip abdomen or chest will do the trick EVERY time someone rushes you with punches."

If as the original question posed was you are severely out weighed by the opponent, when you do your simple front kick, if the force generated by the big guy moving forward is greater than the force of your kick, you're just going to be flattened.

"Ducking the punch(es) or kick(s), stepping in and establishing control in a clinch and take-down situation is also a good move."

Ducking the punches is fine, but if you're still standing in front of the big fella, it's not a good place to be.

"Smaller guys have the advantage on the ground"

Why. In all grappling arts there are weight divisions for the the simple reason that the big guys have the advantage.

As such, I don't believe the advice you've given is the be all and end all.

JohnL

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#103898 - 11/10/04 01:58 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mauibum:
Yo. Why has no one siezed on this before (someone wrote it earlier. I should give them props, but i forget who it was and this thread is damn long to skim...) A simple front push kick with the leading leg (or trailing leg if you have time) delivered to the hip abdomen or chest will do the trick EVERY time someone rushes you with punches.

Side kick is of course a stupid idea because you will get thrown on your back.

This is perfect advice. No one dare contest it.
-Mauibum
[/QUOTE]

JohnL handled the rest, so I'd just add that the kick you recommend will have the EXACT same outcome as a side kick in this scenario: Even if it connects perfectly, at best you'll be knocked out of balance. At worst, flat on your @$$.

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#103899 - 11/10/04 04:06 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


In respectful response:
1. If the guy is running/rushing you at full speed in a mad rush, then a side-step plus a kick or hook (if you get the chance) also can be very effective.

2. My accomplished muay-thai friend got rushed outside of a bar by a "bar-room brawler" type. My friend just leaned heavily into the front kick (rear-leg), pushing the guy away three times before the guy got the idea and decided not to push his luck. You lean into the guy your pushing against and use him as ballast. Lean all your weight forward, and don't kick your leg too high (hip and stomach are most stable). There's no real penalty for leaning too much into a push kick when the guy's rushing you. If you're a karate person and used to kicking air, you will likely get knocked on your ass. Karate is not as much of a martial art as it is a point-based sport and art based on martial principles, but that's my opinion. On top of all this, more highly trained fighters (ones you have to worry about it), won't rush madly with the power of a thousand horses, and you will probably get away with even a poorly-weighted front-kick. Also, How can you miss? The person is locked into their momentum, and their whole midsection is your target.

3. It doesn't matter if you are smaller. If you are able to use the persons mad rush to gain control in a stand-up clinch, you can bring the fight to the ground with you on-top. Good control is good control, no matter how big they are, whether it be muay-thai clinch, duble underhooks with hips pulled out, or locked arms behind the knees. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

4. The bigger person always has an advantage, no doubt. They just have LESS of an advantage on the ground, where they do not have the option of getting in a couple lucky and heavy shots. On the ground, you have to have good base and good knowledge of grappling fundamentals. If you have more of this knowledge it won't matter how big they are. My jiu-jitsu instructor, who is purple belt (which is actually damn high in bjj) and 165, can and does easily tap huge body-builders at his mma gym. These guys have some wrestling experience and are in the range of 250lbs, and are tapped by my instructor with or without the gi! So there.

how about now. Still don't agree with me?
Does my story not lead credence? Do you do live, nhb style sparring? Over here we do some light nhb sparring with smaller, finger-free hybrid gloves. punches at like 30-60%, kicks at like 30%, elbows entirely controlled, and groundwork at like 70-100% strength. I believe that sparring in this kind of format is truly the only way to test a set of martial arts skills (although maybe not the best format to learn and initially practice them). I know I come off as a snot, but that's the way my prize-fighting instructor (Gabe Ruediger) tteaches us to be. I'm really a nice guy, and open to hear your opinions, even though i think that in this case i'm almost deffinitely right. Peace.
-Gabe

p.s. sorry for the long essay above. I'll keep it shorter from now on.

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#103900 - 11/10/04 04:15 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


p.s. the gloves we use are not UFC, rock hard gloves that only protect the fingers. They have much more padding. Akin to a heavily padded TKD glove made from boxing glove material (like 10oz, and 3-4inches thick). You can take a strong punch to the face with them without any trouble.
If anyone's really interested, I could hook you up with a pair, but they sell them online from the UK... do some research

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#103901 - 11/11/04 01:37 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


not to reply to my own post or anything, but my Muay Thai friend was a small thai guy, while the assailant was a husky white american. so, basically front push kick works.

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#103902 - 11/11/04 07:21 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Hi, mauibum.
Not to make a major production of this, but:

Your subsequent post changes things slightly, but enough to make it a brand new ball game. If you sidestep and kick a large man charging at you, the physics involved are totally different. Kicking a large opponent head on as he's charging will have the results I describe (Remember Newton's sometimes inconvenient third law?). Changing the angle will give entirely different results, and is something I might try myself.

If I may be allowed to wax philosophical, we live in a society where exceptions are hyped to the point where they almost totally hide the rule. E.g.: If a vaccine has the power to prevent a disease that kills one in a thousand, but has the potential of causing the very disease it's supposed to prevent in one in twenty million, with one in a thousand of those dying from it, it's the downside that makes the news. The result is that people focus on this exception, instead of the RULE that getting a shot will very much likely save their life.
The MA are no exception to this. Can a well trained smaller fighter defeat a larger, untrained opponent? Yes. Can a well trained smaller fighter defeat a larger, WELL TRAINED opponent? Again yes, sometimes. But what is the RULE?
You're basing your statements on facts, yes, but you need to bear in mind what the generality is. If strength didn't matter in a fight, there would've been no need to invent MA to try to level the playing field.

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 11-11-2004).]

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#103903 - 11/11/04 02:35 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok. so i think we're mostly in agreement. about the whole sidestep + hook or sidekick thing if they're really rushing madly and at high speed, but what do you think about what i said before?:
"more highly trained fighters (ones you have to worry about it), won't rush madly with the power of a thousand horses, and you will probably get away with even a poorly-weighted front-kick" good fighters have to have some control, and at least in my training center, i've never seen someone who couldn't be stopped by a front push kick (if they hadn't already closed the gap betweeen the fighters). The only danger being that if you telegraph what you're going to do they can feint, wait for the kick, and then charge, when you're slightly off balance to the front.

another point (to make a total production out of this, heheh) It's not about momentum so much as the use of weight/gravity and leverage, i think. It's like if you run straight into a pole, the pole's momentum is 0, but it will still stop you cold. When you push kick and lean into it, you're back leg will be at an angle approaching 45 degrees(leaning towards your opponent), and all of their momentum will get transmuted to the ground, so all you have to do is make sure you're leaning in at an appopriate angle, and you'll have all the force of the ground backing you up (almost as if you had your back to a wall and someone ran full speed into your foot, except instead of the wall, you are using the ground and angles and some friction between your foot and the ground to keep you firmly rooted. Also bring your kick pressure downwards after you connect, not horizontally and deffinitely not upwards. Imagine running into a piece of rebar (with a shoe on the end) coming 3 feet high off the ground at a 45 degree angle. The only differenc is that the rebar is actually stuck to the ground, and you are relying on friction. I wouldn't reccomend this move on an icy pond, but in general i think it would work.

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