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#103834 - 12/13/03 06:56 PM How do you deal with a charging bull?
NomindNotrouble Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Lynwood, Ca Us
Ok, I'll set the background. I'm about 195lbs at 5'11''. I've taken judo, Brazilian jujitsu, tkd, kungfu, and a few other arts. I'm not much to sneeze at and I knw my stuff. My buddy does the pretty much the same but with only one differece between us, he's built solid like a mac truck. When we spar against each other its more like a hight speed chase. I had plenty of people say that I should stand my ground and use tatics, while they simply do the same. He's very intimidating. So question is how do you deal with your mack trucks? I don't want to hear from mack trucks themelves because I already know you have an advantage. I want to hear from others who dealt with them? How do you deal with a charging bull?

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#103835 - 12/14/03 05:26 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Stand by a brick wall.

When he charges, shout, "Toro" and side step.

Let the bull charge the wall.

JohnL

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 12-14-2003).]

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#103836 - 12/16/03 12:42 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
oizuki, ive seen a japanese karate sensei, i forget the name but will find out if you request that demonstrated the power of oizuki by literally jumping in a bullring with a very large powerful bull and waiting there to get charged at then,he just stood there and as the bull charged at him he did oizuki and killed it instantly

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#103837 - 12/16/03 12:49 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Kotetsu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 314
Loc: Hollis, NH, USA
Tomoe-nage. This is my personal preference to this and arguably the easiest one to execute.

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#103838 - 12/16/03 01:41 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by karate-do:
oizuki, ive seen a japanese karate sensei, i forget the name but will find out if you request that demonstrated the power of oizuki by literally jumping in a bullring with a very large powerful bull and waiting there to get charged at then,he just stood there and as the bull charged at him he did oizuki and killed it instantly[/QUOTE]


Dare I say it?

Bulls**t

JohnL

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#103839 - 12/16/03 06:18 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
Regarding the karate master versus the bull...

Not quite b******t, but certainly worth questioning. The karate man was Masutatsu Oyama, founder of kyokushinkai. There ARE pictures of him killing a bull with a punch to the skull AND of him chopping a horn off with shuto. Some of these pictures were published in his first book. (This is Karate is the title I think.)

I have heard tell that the conditions of this "contest" (ridiculous and cruel if you ask me) were less than fair and that the bull was small and old. In fairness, Oyama was a very strong man and kyokushin is very strong karate. As I get older, however, I do question the validity of some of these legends.

Did he kill a bull? Yes, that seems to be documented. Is it really that impressive? I don't know. Is it relevant to this thread? Well, Oyama was often described as something of a bull himself, so perhaps this is not the best strategy for smaller guys like me.

Happy training.

David

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#103840 - 12/17/03 07:42 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
And yet again the perpetuation of myths and legends.

If Oyama, who was no doubt a strong karateka, faced a strong bull that was charging at him, and hit him with oi-zuki (or any technique for that matter) the mess of a human being that would be left would be hardly recognizable as either animal, mineral, or vegetable.

Guys, use your brains. Stop spewing forth garbage.

JohnL

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#103841 - 12/17/03 10:11 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
JohnL,

I agree with your assessment. Any real bull worth his salt would have killed Oyama, quite literally.

Mas Oyama was a strong karateka AND a master of self promotion. The cultish way in which some Kyokushin stylists revere him is a little disturbing. (He has been called "the God Hand" and the "God of Karate" by his students. To be honest, while I admire kyokushin as a potent form of karate, I have not found the footage I have seen of Oyama himself to be overly impressive.) I believe the "bull thing" to be more of this marketing.

Again, I do not mean to propagate myths and legends. (I think the martial arts world has enough hucksters, the kind who lie on a bed of nails, have cement broken over them and call it "ki.") Oyama's bullfight was no doubt a publicity stunt performed under very strict conditions. I just wanted to mention that, in whatever form, it really happened.

In case you've never seen some of the pictures, here's a link to a few. (Consider them a curiosity or a well orchestrated and misleading demo.) Again, I agree that Oyama could never have stood against a charging bull.

Only Bruce Lee could have done that... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
http://www.diegobeltran.com/htms/oyama/oyamalegend.htm

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#103842 - 12/17/03 10:19 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
and speaking of hard to swallow myths and legends...(I apologize for hijacking this thread NomindNotrouble)

Has anyone ever heard the story of Gogen Yamaguchi "taming" a tiger with the mere power of his presence/stare?

There are so many of these ridiculous stories that they could really have their own thread.

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#103843 - 12/17/03 11:57 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
NomindNotrouble Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Lynwood, Ca Us
Go ahead. I want to hear this.

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#103844 - 12/17/03 01:44 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrhubbs:
and speaking of hard to swallow myths and legends...(I apologize for hijacking this thread NomindNotrouble)

Has anyone ever heard the story of Gogen Yamaguchi "taming" a tiger with the mere power of his presence/stare?

There are so many of these ridiculous stories that they could really have their own thread.
[/QUOTE]

Go on, go on, I dare you.

You're going to tell me he did it with his chi aren't you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

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#103845 - 12/17/03 01:50 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
NomindNotrouble Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Lynwood, Ca Us
Hey, I'm also I biochemist. Chi is biomagnetic field that is produced due to electric exchange due to chemical reaction of the mitochondria's production of ATP. More mitochondria more chi!

But like I said before, I want to hear this.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#103846 - 12/17/03 06:02 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
Okay, you asked for it, but it makes the Oyama stories seem like regular old jiyu-kumite. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I remember this story from Peter Urban's book The Karate Dojo, which I threw in the garbage when I was a teenager, realizing even then that it was crap. As a result, I tried to track the story down on-line. Either I misremember it, or it exists in several permutations. Here the story doesn't involve a staredown, but an ACTUAL FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!! (Lord help us!)

(I copied this from some website related to Dragontimes. Look up Gogen Yamaguchi of Goju-Ryu and you will undoubtedly find this story told in several places. Or pick up Urban's book for a good laugh...)

"Urban states that when Yamaguchi was in Manchuria he was captured by the Chinese, who tried to break him by solitary confinement, near starvation and torture. They failed. Hitting on another idea, the Chinese obtained a tiger and didn't feed it for three days. Then they put Yamaguchi in the animal's cage, expecting him to be torn limb from limb.

But instead, Yamaguchi kicked the tiger in the nose and struck it in the head with his elbow before diving onto its back. He got the big cat into a stranglehold and, at the same time, "let out an intense, shattering scream, right into the ear of the animal." The tiger was strangled to death .

Naturally, some people doubt that this ever happened, and trying to look further into it only deepens the confusion. For one thing. Urban's details are shaky. He says that Gogen Yamaguchi was arrested in Manchuria by "the hostile Chinese Government," but at that time there was no Chinese Government in Manchuria (Manchukuo) it was a Republic controlled by the Japanese. Yamaguchi in his autobiography, makes no mention of being captured by the Chinese, of being tortured (by Chinese or Russians), or of fighting a tiger.

American karateman, James Genovese, who trained at the Goju-kai headquarters in the seventies, says that Yamaguchi denies the story (see Official Karate, August 1978). Yet, to confuse the matter still more in his interview with Roland Gaillac in the French magazine Karate (April 1977) Yamaguchi is quoted as saying: "In Manchuria one day I went away into the mountains and had a fight with a tiger. with bare hands. It was a terrible experience. I repeated this experience later, before witnesses. ("J'ai renouvele cette experience par la suite. devant temoins.")"


Again, I remember this story being told as Yamaguchi "taming" the tiger with the intensity of his stare/karate spirit, but whatever. People will do a lot of stupid things to promote themselves and their art. They will also believe a lot of things to justify their pursuits.

In any event, I hope you enjoyed the legend of Gogen "The Cat" Yamaguchi.

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#103847 - 12/18/03 09:04 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hey mrhubbs:

I have trouble getting my house moggy into a cat box to take it to the vet.

Clearly I have a long way to go as a MA.

JohnL

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#103848 - 12/18/03 10:03 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
Well, at least you have a goal. I suppose it's always best to start with the basics. ;

David

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#103849 - 12/18/03 10:05 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
There was supposed to be a "knowing wink" at the end of that last post [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#103850 - 01/20/04 12:41 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
colowado Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Fort Collins, CO USA
This thread might be a little outdated, but I found it interesting so here's my toss:

While the stories of karate men fighting bulls and tigers are obviously of little value, the bull fighting analogy is a great way to answer the original question. How do you deal with a charging bull?

I'm a bit taller than you, NoMind, but I'm super skinny (despite my efforts [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]). While my reach is helpful, it doesn't always finish the job when someone who is heavy is charging. But like a bull-fighter, the best way I've found to deal with these types of fighters is to lure them one way, and switch directions as they approach more closely. Watch a bullfight. The matador will slightly lead the bull on, let's say to the right. Not a big move, mind you, but subtle hints that he's moving to the right. The bull charges and as the beast gets close, the matador swirls to his left, escaping (albeit narrowly) danger. Likewise, when fighting someone who is a charger, you can "encourage" him to follow you in a particular direction. Moving out of the way as he gets close will send him past you.

Now, I'm certainly no master, but this has worked for me on occassion. There are of course details to be considered. When you make your evading move, are you moving to the opponents open or closed side? This has ramifactions on how quickly the opponent responds. Also, if you are able to send the opponent past you, you should probably think about countering with something at the same time. A reverse is what I typically end up using as the opponents kidney's are, for a brief moment, exposed.

OTOH, If someone is charging, you can always put your foot up to stop them. The chargers I work out with tend to get so overly focused on charging, that they forget about my feet. Since we all have reach advantage with our legs, it makes sense to stick a foot out there quickly, essentially halting the attack. (To cover my arse, the kick should be a good one, as a mack truck might just roll you over even after they take a kick to the ribs).

Just my thoughts. I could be way off base...

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#103851 - 01/21/04 03:59 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Shaolinboy Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 256
Loc: England
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NomindNotrouble:
Ok, I'll set the background. I'm about 195lbs at 5'11''. I've taken judo, Brazilian jujitsu, tkd, kungfu, and a few other arts. I'm not much to sneeze at and I knw my stuff. My buddy does the pretty much the same but with only one differece between us, he's built solid like a mac truck. When we spar against each other its more like a hight speed chase. I had plenty of people say that I should stand my ground and use tatics, while they simply do the same. He's very intimidating. So question is how do you deal with your mack trucks? I don't want to hear from mack trucks themelves because I already know you have an advantage. I want to hear from others who dealt with them? How do you deal with a charging bull?[/QUOTE]

Sometimes you just can't meet force with force. I know that in Kung Fu we're taught to evade, and counter. Soft Martial Arts such as Aikido and Tai Chi teach using the opponents's strength against them.
When a car comes towards you doing 80 miles an hour, you're going to move out of the way or you'll get hit. So in other words use his strength against him.
I have sparred with guys bigger than me in my class and have managed to hold my own.
Use tactics, such as feints, draw him in, use footwork, don't stand still, don't ever turn your back, sidestep. When he is preparing to attack, attack him first, don't wait to block and counter, attack!

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#103852 - 01/23/04 06:22 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
I was not talking about oyama and you shouldnt immediately dismiss what i say as crap because it sounds incredible it takes 1600kg of pressure to smash a coconut into tiny pieces with a single blow ive seen many people do this as many are able to and if you look into it you will be able to watch some footage of it aswell, some people at the world championships in america did it which was shown on the discovery channel not long ago, take into acount that a human skull for instance takes just 1400kg of pressure then you can imagine how easily they can just smash through them now a bulls head will be stronger but not a lot i dont think it is that unreasonable if you look into it, a correct strike can shatter through skulls quite easily

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#103853 - 01/23/04 08:18 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A coconut that was secured so that it could not move-thereby forcing it to absorb all the force of the blow.
Striking a skull on a living being is quite different, unless of course you pin them down on a concrete surface-breath deeply for a minute,then strike.

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#103854 - 01/24/04 10:16 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
karate-do Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
the bigger the thing you hit the stronger neck muscles and less itl move plus if its running at you its easier. and they dont breathe deeply for a minute before they do it either

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#103855 - 01/26/04 07:56 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by karate-do:
I was not talking about oyama and you shouldnt immediately dismiss what i say as crap because it sounds incredible it takes 1600kg of pressure to smash a coconut into tiny pieces with a single blow ive seen many people do this as many are able to and if you look into it you will be able to watch some footage of it aswell, some people at the world championships in america did it which was shown on the discovery channel not long ago, take into acount that a human skull for instance takes just 1400kg of pressure then you can imagine how easily they can just smash through them now a bulls head will be stronger but not a lot i dont think it is that unreasonable if you look into it, a correct strike can shatter through skulls quite easily[/QUOTE]

You say where and when, I'll rent the bull. We both put $5000 in a hat, if you kill the bull with one blow when it charges you, you win.

JohnL

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#103856 - 01/27/04 02:03 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
colossus Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/26/04
Posts: 2
How did that coconut get there? By African or European swallow? It might make a diff. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#103857 - 01/28/04 05:57 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Yoseikan Student Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Have you ever even SEEN a fully mature, really pissed off bull, karate-do?!?!?!

Its not even funny!!!

Alec.

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#103858 - 02/03/04 11:44 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
ShorinRyuMatt Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Indiana, PA
Although it seems that the question has been partly answered I can identify with the subject at hand. When I joined my class there were two 3rd degree black belts (my sensei's) and myself. As I progressed I got to spar a little, not much contact as control has always been the focus. One of my sensei's is quite a bear and although less raging is still quite a bull with his attacks. Throughout the years the only way I've been able to spar him without receiving a quick reminder to keep my guard up or on balance through a strike from this big guy has been to accept the fact that I was going to be hit and step in to meet him, seems that most bulls know how to chase very well but when confronted they have to suddenly change their long approach to a much closer attack. I have yet to win a sparring match against my sensei but progress is progress! Hope I've been able to at least stir something that can help.

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#103859 - 02/03/04 11:51 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
You say where and when, I'll rent the bull. We both put $5000 in a hat, if you kill the bull with one blow when it charges you, you win.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

I'll put $5,000 in the hat as well. May the force be with you Karate-do.

Raul

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#103860 - 02/03/04 02:56 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
You haven't quite got the idea have you ShorinRyuMatt.

By stepping in you have just added more power to the bulls impact. See my first response on this thread for the secret technique needed for dealing with bulls.

JohnL

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#103861 - 02/03/04 10:00 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
ShorinRyuMatt Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Indiana, PA
Perhaps you're right JohnL [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] From a serious perspective, however, I feel that confronting any issue is preferable to running away even if that means that we put ourselves in harms way. You can't learn from mistakes if you don't have the courage to stand up and choose to defend something you believe in, in this case a sparring match. Again, I could be wrong but I think this perspective should at least be shared.

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#103862 - 02/04/04 06:28 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
ShorinRyuMatt:
Read my first response on this topic again. You clearly haven't read it thoroughly enough.

I haven't suggested running away.

Also in my response, it dealt with the confrontation, just in what I believe to be a tactically superior method.

JohnL

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#103863 - 02/04/04 06:35 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
eel Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 6
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NomindNotrouble:
Ok, I'll set the background. I'm about 195lbs at 5'11''. I've taken judo, Brazilian jujitsu, tkd, kungfu, and a few other arts. I'm not much to sneeze at and I knw my stuff. My buddy does the pretty much the same but with only one differece between us, he's built solid like a mac truck. When we spar against each other its more like a hight speed chase. I had plenty of people say that I should stand my ground and use tatics, while they simply do the same. He's very intimidating. So question is how do you deal with your mack trucks? I don't want to hear from mack trucks themelves because I already know you have an advantage. I want to hear from others who dealt with them? How do you deal with a charging bull?[/QUOTE]

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#103864 - 03/05/04 06:09 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Hmmm, charging bull, what would a Matidor do?
Did I spell Matidor right?


Bonzai

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#103865 - 03/05/04 06:35 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by schanne:
Hmmm, charging bull, what would a Matidor do?
Did I spell Matidor right?


Bonzai
[/QUOTE]

Schanne

Why do you keep writing Bonzai at the bottom of your posts.
Are you trying to root them or something?

JohnL

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#103866 - 03/08/04 06:18 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Schanne

Why do you keep writing Bonzai at the bottom of your posts.
Are you trying to root them or something?

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

No, it's like my signiture, if it bothers you I will stop. Bonzai!!!!

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#103867 - 04/23/04 03:23 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Do you mean Bonsai (little bitty tree) or Banzai the Japanese cheer meaning (may you live 1000 years)?

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#103868 - 04/25/04 06:14 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Does he lean when he charges in? If he does try to take advantage of that.

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#103869 - 04/28/04 01:58 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
WADO Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Just a note Rocky Marciano was 5'11'' and only 180 lbs and he knocked a bunch of guys out. Michael Spinks was 6' 195 whan he beat Larry Holmes in a 15 round fight. He tried to bulk up against Tyson and got whacked. Endurance and quickness will always beat size. A charging Bull will expend a bunch of energy in his charge. I was also thinking Hypothetically if a bull was charging and you killed him with one punch wouldn't his momentum carry him foreward and crush you anyway. I don't know about other places but I have never seen a full grown bull much under a ton. Mabey they come smaller in Japan.

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#103870 - 04/30/04 04:15 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
Hypothetically if a bull was charging and you killed him with one punch wouldn't his momentum carry him foreward and crush you anyway. I don't know about other places but I have never seen a full grown bull much under a ton. Mabey they come smaller in Japan. [/QUOTE]

I like the way you think, WADO. No doubt, you will never fall prey to the mythology that runs rampant in our community.

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#103871 - 05/05/04 10:59 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
seeker of truth Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4
Loc: united kingdom
my sensei was talking with suzuki sensei once about the bull that oyama killed,he said yes he did kill the bull,but it was a very old bull,i think the asian people in general have different thoughts on animals,we might think things cruel that they dont,personaly i dont like cruelty to animals it says a lot about the state of your country. i read the big oyama book ,and i think as you progress you realise what a lot of it is about and what can be acheived through regular dilligent training,one thought i had was that i read somewhere bulls legs at the back are longer than there front ones,so run down hill away from the bull and it will fall over,i havent tested this theory,but its in the back of my mind if the situation arises. the only thing i can think of when fighting a guy bigger or as big as you is take the fingers and dont use power against power, also use your head,or run away,a nd live to fight another day,so there you go pick that to bits [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#103872 - 05/11/04 04:11 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
1st Round KO Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 1497
Loc: New York City, USA
i once killed a bull with a swing kick to its nuts. then i ate its heart to make me strong like bull.
i kept its skin as a winter coat and memento.
if you dont believe me, ask your mom.

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#103873 - 06/13/04 09:09 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Dante Kazuma Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 32
Loc: Green River, WY, US
getting back to the topic in witch this was all started by, i have a friend i spar against. he is 220lbs, and im olny 160lbs. he uses an axe, i use a katana (both are wood, to ease concern)and when he charges at me, i just duck around him and hit him once from behind. but, im not really sure on what to do in other MA's that do not use weapons. i just needed to add in my 2 cents. btw, JohnL, you seem really pissed off about something. might i suggest meditation?

-Dante Kazuma, Ranger of the Takura Sugi
p.s. does this bother you?

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#103874 - 06/14/04 08:04 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
No, I'm far too old to let idiots bother me.

JohnL

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#103875 - 06/16/04 08:50 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
ken harding Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
Lol @ JohnL

I'm late on this thread but have been informed by a sensei way back that Oyama's "bull" was a bull calf. The have a bone apparently in the skull that is soft for some time much like human babies. Accoring to this chap (on what he based this all I have no knowledge) said animal was stationary at the time. Am only putting this on to fuel an already fatuous thread [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#103876 - 06/17/04 04:55 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


that pour pathetic tiger story sounded like a version of the one in the christian bible, i find it equally stupid.you have too much time on your hands if your reading this sort of b******t.honestly.that tiger probably just dropped dead of starvation.

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#103877 - 06/17/04 07:59 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline
Member

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
I assume you are referring to my recounting of Yamaguchi's meeting with a tiger.

You obviously missed my skeptical tone. I read and was impressed with that story when I was 16. I am 32 now and far too old to believe in the myths and parlor tricks that people associate with the martial arts.

And you're correct. At 16 I probably did have too much time on my hands [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

David

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#103878 - 06/18/04 11:25 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
WADO 1 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 308
Loc: Denver, Co USA
I read a story that Davey Crocket killed a black bear with a bouey knife it's in his autobiography and it was supposed to be an adult female bear. I saw a documentary about massai kids who have to kill a lion with a separ on their 16th birthday. The one thing these people all seem to have in common is a weapon of some kind. I don't think it is likely a person could kill a tiger without some kind of weapon.

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#103879 - 07/07/04 01:45 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


first round tko, best post I've read in a really long time. I will have to call PETA however. My mom told me to.

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#103880 - 07/07/04 01:51 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ummm it is true JohnL, Sosai Mas Oyama has killed many bulls using Karate techniques, and Gene Lebelle use 2 wrestle bears!!!!!

proper technique can defeat weight and strength!!!!!!!

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#103881 - 07/07/04 12:17 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by warrior_james:
ummm it is true JohnL, Sosai Mas Oyama has killed many bulls using Karate techniques, and Gene Lebelle use 2 wrestle bears!!!!!

proper technique can defeat weight and strength!!!!!!!
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, despite being a strong karateka who no doubt enjoyed a good bit of contact in his karate, Mas Oyama's stories have now been exagerated out of all proportion to his abilities.

If ANYONE were to attempt meetin a full sized, pissed off bull, head on. They're toast!

The fact that you believe the legends means that you've given up thinking.

JohnL

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#103882 - 07/07/04 05:26 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
i killed a rabbit once with a full power front kick...dont know if that helps [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

But i wouldnt fight the "fluffy bunny" in Monty python and the holy grail, those nasty sharp pointy teeth can be jolly dangerous.

mark

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#103883 - 07/07/04 09:58 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Back to the orginal question "how do you deal with a charging bull"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kotetsu:
Tomoe-nage. This is my personal preference to this and arguably the easiest one to execute.[/QUOTE]

I think not... Tomoe-Nage requires one to fully commit to the technique. If your timing isn't perfect, and your opponent is aware of the counter to this technique, you are instantly caught in a VERY bad situation... on your back with a larger person standing over you.

Perhaps Sasae Ashi would be a better idea. Even if you cant execute the sweep, your stepping out of the way, so your not taking any damage from the opponent

[This message has been edited by DanzanRyu (edited 07-08-2004).]

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#103884 - 08/27/04 02:39 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
You haven't quite got the idea have you ShorinRyuMatt.

By stepping in you have just added more power to the bulls impact. See my first response on this thread for the secret technique needed for dealing with bulls.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

in taekwondo, stepping in would be just right..as the bull aims to kick u..u step in, closing the distance. therefore his feet is now too close to kick u..no score

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#103885 - 08/27/04 02:44 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by seeker of truth:
my sensei was talking with suzuki sensei once about the bull that oyama killed,he said yes he did kill the bull,but it was a very old bull,i think the asian people in general have different thoughts on animals,we might think things cruel that they dont,personaly i dont like cruelty to animals it says a lot about the state of your country. i read the big oyama book ,and i think as you progress you realise what a lot of it is about and what can be acheived through regular dilligent training,one thought i had was that i read somewhere bulls legs at the back are longer than there front ones,so run down hill away from the bull and it will fall over,i havent tested this theory,but its in the back of my mind if the situation arises. the only thing i can think of when fighting a guy bigger or as big as you is take the fingers and dont use power against power, also use your head,or run away,a nd live to fight another day,so there you go pick that to bits [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE]

hi
im frm asia..and oyama killing the bull is cruel..and we're not all cold-hearted. abt the downhill bull thing yeah..i heard it before too...
u can lead a cow up stairs but not down the stairs....

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#103886 - 09/07/04 11:51 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Stand by a brick wall.

When he charges, shout, "Toro" and side step.

Let the bull charge the wall.

JohnL

[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 12-14-2003).]
[/QUOTE]


You forgot the red cape, John. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#103887 - 09/12/04 10:14 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#103888 - 09/12/04 10:20 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#103889 - 09/12/04 10:25 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#103890 - 09/12/04 10:31 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:

You forgot the red cape, John. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NomindNotrouble:
Ok, I'll set the background. I'm about 195lbs at 5'11''. I've taken judo, Brazilian jujitsu, tkd, kungfu, and a few other arts. I'm not much to sneeze at and I knw my stuff. My buddy does the pretty much the same but with only one differece between us, he's built solid like a mac truck. When we spar against each other its more like a hight speed chase. I had plenty of people say that I should stand my ground and use tatics, while they simply do the same. He's very intimidating. So question is how do you deal with your mack trucks? I don't want to hear from mack trucks themelves because I already know you have an advantage. I want to hear from others who dealt with them? How do you deal with a charging bull?[/QUOTE]

Seriously, now, I posted the following in a thread entitled "Skill vs. Strength" in the self- defense forum. It somewhat describes what sort of works for me when dealing with "Mack trucks".
P.S.: It also sorta says what DOESN'T work for me. So much for mindlessly standing your ground!:
"I have to agree with John on this. I can't offer an example from "street" fighting, but here's a personal anecdote: My sensei (Shotokan) was very firendly with, and respectful of, another sensei of the Kajukenbo style. So much so that for Dan tests all judansha from both dojos participated in the fighting part of the test (Full contact, no gear).
I first met Dave, one of the Kajukenbo sensei's students, during his test for shodan. He's about my height, at 6'2", and at the time weighed in at 210#, compared to my 175# soaking wet. While at that skill level, he would give me a good fight, but didn't prove to be especially troublesome. In fact, for fun I'd go toe to toe with him, just slogging away. He packed a punch, but not enough to deter me. And then the years passed...
When Dave tested for his sandan, I was once again paired with him. By then he was up to a buff 230#, me still 175# soaking wet. I went into the fight thinking that what worked before ought to work always... A half swollen shut eye and double vision one minute into the fight showed me different. Not only was the guy more powerful by then, his technique had much improved. I learned the hard way that the toe to toe business was out at least where Dave was concerned. I learned to fight him by moving around just out of reach and countering when he became impatient and overextended himself in trying to hit me (Not always possible in a street scenario).
To this day, I can fight Dave to a draw in the dojo (We're both old f*rts by now, so we usually succeed in not hurting each other, which wasn't always the case from Dave's sandan test onward). But if we were younger guys still coming up it would probably be the case that his technique would improve to the point that he'd defeat me. In a street fight, I think he'd win, even though he'd sustain a goodly amount of damage."

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#103891 - 09/12/04 10:42 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#103892 - 10/01/04 01:31 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


in response to the main topic, sit back and rock him with a side kick to knock the wind out of him. Or step to the side and kick him to the solar plexis with a roundhouse to knock the wind out of him. Granted this will only work a couple of times, but he will think twice about charging at you again, or he will get angry and become very sloppy.

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#103893 - 10/21/04 11:45 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


When a big guy charges at you it may be good to just stick out a side kick. The guy will run into it and it WILL hurt him.

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#103894 - 10/26/04 09:36 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andrei78:
When a big guy charges at you it may be good to just stick out a side kick. The guy will run into it and it WILL hurt him.[/QUOTE]

It will also have him charging into you just as you have one foot up in the air. Since the premise is that this is a big opponent the other result will be that, at best, you'll be knocked off balance by his built up momentum. At worst you'll be knocked to the ground. Not the best scenarios when you're dealing with a big guy.

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#103895 - 10/26/04 10:08 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've seen an aikido move that you step to the side and rotate his shoulders. He goes to the ground. don't know how effective it is against a resisting opponent...

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#103896 - 11/10/04 01:15 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yo. Why has no one siezed on this before (someone wrote it earlier. I should give them props, but i forget who it was and this thread is damn long to skim...) A simple front push kick with the leading leg (or trailing leg if you have time) delivered to the hip abdomen or chest will do the trick EVERY time someone rushes you with punches.

Side kick is of course a stupid idea because you will get thrown on your back. Ducking the punch(es) or kick(s), stepping in and establishing control in a clinch and take-down situation is also a good move. You said you've trained jiu-jitsu..., USE it. Smaller guys have the advantage on the ground, especially when they've just thrown their heavier opponent on their head and have taken the top position.

This is perfect advice. No one dare contest it.
-Mauibum

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#103897 - 11/10/04 06:38 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hi mauibum

I had a couple of comments on the points you've made;

"A simple front push kick with the leading leg (or trailing leg if you have time) delivered to the hip abdomen or chest will do the trick EVERY time someone rushes you with punches."

If as the original question posed was you are severely out weighed by the opponent, when you do your simple front kick, if the force generated by the big guy moving forward is greater than the force of your kick, you're just going to be flattened.

"Ducking the punch(es) or kick(s), stepping in and establishing control in a clinch and take-down situation is also a good move."

Ducking the punches is fine, but if you're still standing in front of the big fella, it's not a good place to be.

"Smaller guys have the advantage on the ground"

Why. In all grappling arts there are weight divisions for the the simple reason that the big guys have the advantage.

As such, I don't believe the advice you've given is the be all and end all.

JohnL

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#103898 - 11/10/04 01:58 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mauibum:
Yo. Why has no one siezed on this before (someone wrote it earlier. I should give them props, but i forget who it was and this thread is damn long to skim...) A simple front push kick with the leading leg (or trailing leg if you have time) delivered to the hip abdomen or chest will do the trick EVERY time someone rushes you with punches.

Side kick is of course a stupid idea because you will get thrown on your back.

This is perfect advice. No one dare contest it.
-Mauibum
[/QUOTE]

JohnL handled the rest, so I'd just add that the kick you recommend will have the EXACT same outcome as a side kick in this scenario: Even if it connects perfectly, at best you'll be knocked out of balance. At worst, flat on your @$$.

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#103899 - 11/10/04 04:06 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


In respectful response:
1. If the guy is running/rushing you at full speed in a mad rush, then a side-step plus a kick or hook (if you get the chance) also can be very effective.

2. My accomplished muay-thai friend got rushed outside of a bar by a "bar-room brawler" type. My friend just leaned heavily into the front kick (rear-leg), pushing the guy away three times before the guy got the idea and decided not to push his luck. You lean into the guy your pushing against and use him as ballast. Lean all your weight forward, and don't kick your leg too high (hip and stomach are most stable). There's no real penalty for leaning too much into a push kick when the guy's rushing you. If you're a karate person and used to kicking air, you will likely get knocked on your ass. Karate is not as much of a martial art as it is a point-based sport and art based on martial principles, but that's my opinion. On top of all this, more highly trained fighters (ones you have to worry about it), won't rush madly with the power of a thousand horses, and you will probably get away with even a poorly-weighted front-kick. Also, How can you miss? The person is locked into their momentum, and their whole midsection is your target.

3. It doesn't matter if you are smaller. If you are able to use the persons mad rush to gain control in a stand-up clinch, you can bring the fight to the ground with you on-top. Good control is good control, no matter how big they are, whether it be muay-thai clinch, duble underhooks with hips pulled out, or locked arms behind the knees. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

4. The bigger person always has an advantage, no doubt. They just have LESS of an advantage on the ground, where they do not have the option of getting in a couple lucky and heavy shots. On the ground, you have to have good base and good knowledge of grappling fundamentals. If you have more of this knowledge it won't matter how big they are. My jiu-jitsu instructor, who is purple belt (which is actually damn high in bjj) and 165, can and does easily tap huge body-builders at his mma gym. These guys have some wrestling experience and are in the range of 250lbs, and are tapped by my instructor with or without the gi! So there.

how about now. Still don't agree with me?
Does my story not lead credence? Do you do live, nhb style sparring? Over here we do some light nhb sparring with smaller, finger-free hybrid gloves. punches at like 30-60%, kicks at like 30%, elbows entirely controlled, and groundwork at like 70-100% strength. I believe that sparring in this kind of format is truly the only way to test a set of martial arts skills (although maybe not the best format to learn and initially practice them). I know I come off as a snot, but that's the way my prize-fighting instructor (Gabe Ruediger) tteaches us to be. I'm really a nice guy, and open to hear your opinions, even though i think that in this case i'm almost deffinitely right. Peace.
-Gabe

p.s. sorry for the long essay above. I'll keep it shorter from now on.

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#103900 - 11/10/04 04:15 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


p.s. the gloves we use are not UFC, rock hard gloves that only protect the fingers. They have much more padding. Akin to a heavily padded TKD glove made from boxing glove material (like 10oz, and 3-4inches thick). You can take a strong punch to the face with them without any trouble.
If anyone's really interested, I could hook you up with a pair, but they sell them online from the UK... do some research

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#103901 - 11/11/04 01:37 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


not to reply to my own post or anything, but my Muay Thai friend was a small thai guy, while the assailant was a husky white american. so, basically front push kick works.

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#103902 - 11/11/04 07:21 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Hi, mauibum.
Not to make a major production of this, but:

Your subsequent post changes things slightly, but enough to make it a brand new ball game. If you sidestep and kick a large man charging at you, the physics involved are totally different. Kicking a large opponent head on as he's charging will have the results I describe (Remember Newton's sometimes inconvenient third law?). Changing the angle will give entirely different results, and is something I might try myself.

If I may be allowed to wax philosophical, we live in a society where exceptions are hyped to the point where they almost totally hide the rule. E.g.: If a vaccine has the power to prevent a disease that kills one in a thousand, but has the potential of causing the very disease it's supposed to prevent in one in twenty million, with one in a thousand of those dying from it, it's the downside that makes the news. The result is that people focus on this exception, instead of the RULE that getting a shot will very much likely save their life.
The MA are no exception to this. Can a well trained smaller fighter defeat a larger, untrained opponent? Yes. Can a well trained smaller fighter defeat a larger, WELL TRAINED opponent? Again yes, sometimes. But what is the RULE?
You're basing your statements on facts, yes, but you need to bear in mind what the generality is. If strength didn't matter in a fight, there would've been no need to invent MA to try to level the playing field.

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 11-11-2004).]

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#103903 - 11/11/04 02:35 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok. so i think we're mostly in agreement. about the whole sidestep + hook or sidekick thing if they're really rushing madly and at high speed, but what do you think about what i said before?:
"more highly trained fighters (ones you have to worry about it), won't rush madly with the power of a thousand horses, and you will probably get away with even a poorly-weighted front-kick" good fighters have to have some control, and at least in my training center, i've never seen someone who couldn't be stopped by a front push kick (if they hadn't already closed the gap betweeen the fighters). The only danger being that if you telegraph what you're going to do they can feint, wait for the kick, and then charge, when you're slightly off balance to the front.

another point (to make a total production out of this, heheh) It's not about momentum so much as the use of weight/gravity and leverage, i think. It's like if you run straight into a pole, the pole's momentum is 0, but it will still stop you cold. When you push kick and lean into it, you're back leg will be at an angle approaching 45 degrees(leaning towards your opponent), and all of their momentum will get transmuted to the ground, so all you have to do is make sure you're leaning in at an appopriate angle, and you'll have all the force of the ground backing you up (almost as if you had your back to a wall and someone ran full speed into your foot, except instead of the wall, you are using the ground and angles and some friction between your foot and the ground to keep you firmly rooted. Also bring your kick pressure downwards after you connect, not horizontally and deffinitely not upwards. Imagine running into a piece of rebar (with a shoe on the end) coming 3 feet high off the ground at a 45 degree angle. The only differenc is that the rebar is actually stuck to the ground, and you are relying on friction. I wouldn't reccomend this move on an icy pond, but in general i think it would work.

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#103904 - 11/11/04 02:42 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If strength didn't matter, then uh..., martial arts still would be invented because the chinese bhuddhist monks were being beaten with clubs by haters.
but anyway, to agree with you:
the rule is strenght is an advantage. no one says otherwise. it's not the winning edge though. and there are ways to minimize the big guys' advantages, hence another main point of MA as you've said.

i was just basically pissed because most people were like "oh he's bigger than you, there's not much you can do. fight someone in your weight class". and i'm still a firm believer in my beliefs as stated above.

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#103905 - 11/11/04 02:50 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


After this post I'm done hogging this board for a while...
My belief is essentially that if in a fight, people are mismatched with one having X% more skill and the other having X% more weight (where x= anything from 10-100), as a RULE, i'd put my money on the skilled guy. maybe i should post this question as a new thread and see what other people feel...

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#103906 - 11/12/04 09:04 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mauibum:
ok. so i think we're mostly in agreement. about the whole sidestep + hook or sidekick thing if they're really rushing madly and at high speed, but what do you think about what i said before?:
"more highly trained fighters (ones you have to worry about it), won't rush madly with the power of a thousand horses, and you will probably get away with even a poorly-weighted front-kick" good fighters have to have some control, and at least in my training center, i've never seen someone who couldn't be stopped by a front push kick (if they hadn't already closed the gap betweeen the fighters). The only danger being that if you telegraph what you're going to do they can feint, wait for the kick, and then charge, when you're slightly off balance to the front.

another point (to make a total production out of this, heheh) It's not about momentum so much as the use of weight/gravity and leverage, i think. It's like if you run straight into a pole, the pole's momentum is 0, but it will still stop you cold. When you push kick and lean into it, you're back leg will be at an angle approaching 45 degrees(leaning towards your opponent), and all of their momentum will get transmuted to the ground, so all you have to do is make sure you're leaning in at an appopriate angle, and you'll have all the force of the ground backing you up (almost as if you had your back to a wall and someone ran full speed into your foot, except instead of the wall, you are using the ground and angles and some friction between your foot and the ground to keep you firmly rooted. Also bring your kick pressure downwards after you connect, not horizontally and deffinitely not upwards. Imagine running into a piece of rebar (with a shoe on the end) coming 3 feet high off the ground at a 45 degree angle. The only differenc is that the rebar is actually stuck to the ground, and you are relying on friction. I wouldn't reccomend this move on an icy pond, but in general i think it would work.
[/QUOTE]

As I said, when you modified your post to add kicking at an angle instead of head on, it became a whole different situation.
And now that you add the modifier about a trained fighter's methodology, it changes again.
Given the above, I don't see anything I would object to in what you're saying.
However, regardless of the angle or the amount of momentum being generated by the opponent, "action/ reaction" will always be present. The trick is to minimize it's effects. Angles and body mechanics to maximize your leverage are a big part of the answer, as well as timing.

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#103907 - 11/17/04 05:46 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd personally recommend the side step and side kick for a rushing opponent over that thrust kick, or if you aren't afraid to get in and dirty, a nice hip throw as he rushes past you. It works effectively for me, and I spar with a guy who's like 250 or so. Haven't lost to him yet. I don't know if you guys grapple when you spar, but if you really want to take the bull head on, this takedown always works for me, no matter how big the opponent. As he rushes in you need to sidestep left and catch his his head in a guillotine headlock in your right armpit and secure it. Then leading with your right leg, hook sweep his right leg. You should try to direct his fall under you and across at 45 degrees. You will land in a very secure reverse nelson and have control of his breathing.

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#103908 - 12/06/04 09:55 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


In my style we would sink a little lower in our horse stance, rotate torso and opposite arm to attacker swings through and folds with elbow point smashing into upper thorax/throat/face of opponent. You will not be moved, I am 5 foot 9, 200lbs. No one has moved me yet.

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#103909 - 12/07/04 06:33 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andyjc9:
In my style we would sink a little lower in our horse stance, rotate torso and opposite arm to attacker swings through and folds with elbow point smashing into upper thorax/throat/face of opponent. You will not be moved, I am 5 foot 9, 200lbs. No one has moved me yet.[/QUOTE]

If you are still standing in line when you are bull-rushed by a significantly heavier guy, you will be stomped on. The horse stance you suggest will do very little for you. If the stance is at right angles to the attack you will have no base to oppose the incoming force. If your stance is in line with the attack, all you have done is expose the side of your knee to being crushed in a way that no self respecting knee deserves.

Overall technique score 2 out of 10.

JohnL

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#103910 - 12/08/04 01:47 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm slightly confused as to what defines a "mack truck". I'm 5'11" (about 180cm) and mass close to 2 bills. (about 88kg) In my sparring class, (which is a continuous point format with excessive contact being defined as that which causes serious injury), I'm quite capable of stopping, with a defensive side kick, a blitz from people to whom I give up close to a hundred pounds. Perhaps this is a result of a difference in sparring rules where I fight and where other fight or a difference in the technique of the side kick, but a properly executed side-kick (where I grew up) should be able to stop a larger opponent if thrown properly. (W/in reason. A 115# person who can leg press 80lbs probably can't stop a 300lb person who can leg press close to a 1000.)

We are taught to throw the side leaning into the target, and not standing straight up on the support leg. (which, I agree, would result in being knocked on your butt.)

So I guess my question is this - What rules are in place when trying to stop this "mack truck"? It sounds like a ring situation and not street, but I may be mistaken...

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#103911 - 12/08/04 08:45 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I had to spar with a "charging bull" once. I'm 5'9 and weigh 135lbs. I had to spar with a 40 year old guy that probably weighed 250 lbs. He would always come charging at me and when i tried to meet him in the charge it wouldn't end good. So we broke up and my master told me to dodge and counter, so the round started and he came at my charging, i side stepped and kicked him a few times. That kept going on, and finally he tried to front kick me and put all his weight in the kick. i side stepped and he threw out his knee. I thought it was a pretty good victory ^_-

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#103912 - 12/08/04 10:53 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Awesome. Not so much that he got hurt, because that's bad, but that he did it to himself trying to crush somebody half his size.

Best way not be hit? No be there. When fighting a larger opponent, use guerilla tactics. Be the VietCong against the US.

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#103913 - 12/28/04 02:43 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I too am a smallish guy 5'8" & 148lbs and ponder the idea of how to tackle bigger guys. I am fortunate to have a 6'2" 250lb'ish friend to train with and i've found the best non-fancy methods work best. A snapping lead leg front kick to the groin would be my preferred initial counter.

Falcon

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#103914 - 01/06/05 03:01 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You could, roll into the fetile position with your back fasing up and he would trip over you. XD
or..
Palm strike on the tip of the chin with the front hand, a strong punch from the back hand, short punch to his side w/ front, then w/e..
or..
stick your finger and gouge his eye balls out!!! ARR!


I don't know... There's a big guy at our school and always starts fights by rammming into people's stomachs and knocking them over. If he rammed me my reaction would probably be putting all my weight in the leg farthest from him and hammering his leading shoulder. Should put him off balance

[This message has been edited by RockHard Huy (edited 01-06-2005).]

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#103915 - 01/13/05 10:38 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
FearlessJones Offline
Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 28
Loc: San Francisco, CA, USA
If I remember correctly the original poster said he knew some judo. If so why not just give ground fast eough and far enought to establish a grip and use the "bull''s" forward motion as kuzushi. At that point, any forward throw will work. As for punches and kicks that he'll have to endure on the "bull's" way in... most likely they wont be accurate or effective because of lack of balance.

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#103916 - 01/18/05 01:09 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Geez this is a strange argument. Im very impressed with 1st Round KO's bravery and skill, anyone who can kill a bull with one nut-kick is obviously not to be messed with! Im a little confused as to whether the 'charging bull' you are all talking about is someone actually running full tilt at you (as some people seem to be implying) or a slightly more sane martial artist driving forward relentlessly.

If its someone running full tilt, I have to chuckle and ask why you're worried. Running people tend to be slightly easier to hit than people with a guard and a brain behind their horns. Pick somewhere vital, and drop them. If its the other case, not so easy.

First of all, whats moving the bull? Its legs. If you stop someone at their legs their body stops. If its a buddy, jam their leg. If its someone out to get you, kick straight through their knee and drop them.

Next, use your footwork. If they have bulk on you, you have agility on them. Keep the fight at your distance, wait for the inevitable gap, and then hit them so hard and so fast that they lose a bit of their eagerness to chase you. Hit accurately. Dont waste your strikes, hit places that will demoralise, slow, or drop your opponent. Straight after you stop them at the legs is often a good time to close in and hurt them. If you're a grappler, use this moment of unbalance as that gap you wanted, take them down.

Last of all, don't try and use one sweeping tactic. Don't just stand your ground, dont just run. When you need to step back or sideways, do so. When theres a gap, use it. Why limit yourself to one half of your possibilities?

If this was all misinterpreted, Im sorry. Oh, Im not talking about a real bull by the way. Im talking about a PERSON. Go on, say Im full of crap.

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#103917 - 01/26/05 09:05 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
And yet again the perpetuation of myths and legends.

If Oyama, who was no doubt a strong karateka, faced a strong bull that was charging at him, and hit him with oi-zuki (or any technique for that matter) the mess of a human being that would be left would be hardly recognizable as either animal, mineral, or vegetable.

Guys, use your brains. Stop spewing forth garbage.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

Easy there big fella, Oyama did fight a bull, not once but twice. Sorry to disapoint ya but I have the (very)poor quality film and he doesn't just punch the bull as it charges he strikes and kicks at it and frustrates the beast until he can get close enough to wrestle it to the ground. He has it on the ground and strikes the neck until it is immobile (dead hmmmmmmmmmmmm, I don't think it matters, at that point it would just be a matter of hitting it until something breaks)

Marketing, certainly but effective, he said he was going to do it and he did.

for the "Godhand" title, that refers to a nickname given to him by the press junket following his '58' tour of the States where he broke various objects with his strikes, I believe the original quote to be "the brick broke, shattered as if hit by the very hand of God" The nickname stuck and OF COURSE Oyama let it.

Myth? nope, marketing? absolutely

As to the remark about it being a small bull,that is not true. The second time he attempted the feat in Tokyo (1960) the bull gored him and put him in hospital for several months.

He was not invincible it seems but certainly tried very hard to be.

[This message has been edited by Kyokushara (edited 01-26-2005).]

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#103918 - 02/08/05 08:07 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i fink you should just avoid getting ran at in the first place

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#103919 - 02/16/05 02:56 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i suggest that when he runs at you then u give him a full power thrust kick to the gut!

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#103920 - 02/19/05 07:32 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If ur smaller, use that to ur advantage - be fluid and agile, keep on your toes and move around alot, circle him. It is very rare for a big guy to have fast movements. Also hit the weak points - the knees (try and hit from side on and put him down so he can't get up), throat, nose, Solar pelixis (i can't spell). But most of all DO NOT GET STUCK IN A CORNER. The only way out of this is to wait for a punch and counter-move, go under it and smack him from behind. Its almost impossible just to run out of there cause their often wide enough to cover that.

I'm 5'10, and 53kg - i know what i'm talkin about cause i do this all the time. The full powered thrust kick to the gut works only if u have enough momentum - Its called physics and u risk jarring ur knee if u do go for it and that can screw u over in the street.

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#103921 - 02/25/05 09:24 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by NomindNotrouble:
Ok, I'll set the background. I'm about 195lbs at 5'11''. I've taken judo, Brazilian jujitsu, tkd, kungfu, and a few other arts. I'm not much to sneeze at and I knw my stuff. My buddy does the pretty much the same but with only one differece between us, he's built solid like a mac truck. When we spar against each other its more like a hight speed chase. I had plenty of people say that I should stand my ground and use tatics, while they simply do the same. He's very intimidating. So question is how do you deal with your mack trucks? I don't want to hear from mack trucks themelves because I already know you have an advantage. I want to hear from others who dealt with them? How do you deal with a charging bull?[/QUOTE]

Learn to wrestle; if he shoots sprall and brall; if he stands punch a combo and shoot. never pull guard; always turn to your belly and work on standing up (look out for the rear naked and leg locks)

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#103922 - 02/28/05 04:15 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd go for a takedown. The bigger they are... Just make sure you're always moving faster than he is because if he's bigger and moving just as fast it's going to be hard to take him on even with flawless technique.

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#103923 - 04/06/05 02:41 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok so, he's charging towards you and by the look of things you're gonna get flattened. wait till hes about 2 and 1/2 to 3ft away and start to step outwards to your 'strong side' for me this is my right. as you do this raise your left hand to his eyes so he either has to close them or move his head which will break his concentration. the chances are that because you are going to his left he'll go right to avoid you so his left side will now be open to strikes. i usually find the kidney area works for just sparring with a freind but in real fights i've been caught up in i find the side of the neck and legs work better for an instant imbolisation/setup for a takedown.

hope this helped.

ben

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#103924 - 04/17/05 12:34 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I also had a problem of fighters rushing in on top of me. I found effective a side kick in the belly, if you get him with it he prob wont rush like a bull again. but it is all about timing stay well away about your leg lenth usually before sombody rushes in they lean forward a bit, sone as he does this strike with that side kick hard.

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#103925 - 04/17/05 12:45 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You need to step in and apply pressure. Kick low to the legs and punch around his guard, then move in a circle around his line of force and attack again.
Again, when you move backwards you are open to all attacks, you must step in and attack, then move to the side and attack again.
Do not allow him the space to build momentum, you must apply pressure and press the attack from the angle by his weakest side.
Offence is the best defence, use powerful and effective strikes to make him think twice about charging in.

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#103926 - 04/17/05 01:10 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh and just in regards to the Karate master's unbelievable claims of impossible feats. Have you guys ever seen the Shaolin Monks when they tour around doing their shows? Man it's absolutly amazing what they can do.
Similarly, it is also amazing what a man or woman is capable of when they have dedicated their whole life at an average of ten to twelve hours per day to a single worthwhile purpose.
Just because in the context of your own life, it is impossible, doesn't mean that it actually is.

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#103927 - 07/31/05 03:09 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: FearlessJones]
mantis_boxing Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 62
what my instructor always said was "salubungin mo" which is filipino for meet his force. when he charges at you extend a straight kick right up into his solar plexus. or if you dont like force-to-force, pivot around to his rear at the last moment throw a quick combo then dance a la matador
_________________________
Simplicity

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#103928 - 07/31/05 05:08 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: karate-do]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

oizuki, ive seen a japanese karate sensei, i forget the name but will find out if you request that demonstrated the power of oizuki by literally jumping in a bullring with a very large powerful bull and waiting there to get charged at then,he just stood there and as the bull charged at him he did oizuki and killed it instantly




Could you mean Mas Oyama? He's killed several bulls, however, I believe most were with a shuto-uchi to the horn, severing it from the head, and the bulls bled to death.
_________________________
Calling yourself "Master" implies that you have slaves.

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#103929 - 07/31/05 05:15 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: Boomer]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
duh...I guess I shoulda read further into the posts before I posted myself, huh? Won't make that mistake again...my apologies.
_________________________
Calling yourself "Master" implies that you have slaves.

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#103930 - 07/31/05 12:13 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: NomindNotrouble]
Hawk1216 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 12
Well, if this is JUST for point type sparring...I'd personally say as he starts to charge, feint a retreat, and then maybe try a turning side kick preferably to the solarplexus. Now, I ain't superbly high up there in rank in MA, but that's just my two cents.

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#103931 - 11/03/05 01:48 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: mrhubbs]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Editted out due to further research.


Edited by Subedei (11/03/05 01:52 AM)

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#103932 - 11/03/05 06:27 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: mrhubbs]
Belnick Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 1165
Loc: SWEDEN
Quote:

Regarding the karate master versus the bull...

Not quite b******t, but certainly worth questioning. The karate man was Masutatsu Oyama, founder of kyokushinkai. There ARE pictures of him killing a bull with a punch to the skull AND of him chopping a horn off with shuto. Some of these pictures were published in his first book. (This is Karate is the title I think.)

I have heard tell that the conditions of this "contest" (ridiculous and cruel if you ask me) were less than fair and that the bull was small and old. In fairness, Oyama was a very strong man and kyokushin is very strong karate. As I get older, however, I do question the validity of some of these legends.

Did he kill a bull? Yes, that seems to be documented. Is it really that impressive? I don't know. Is it relevant to this thread? Well, Oyama was often described as something of a bull himself, so perhaps this is not the best strategy for smaller guys like me.

Happy training.

David






Quote:


In 1950, Sosai (the founder) Mas Oyama started testing (and demonstrating) his power by fighting bulls. In all, he fought 52 bulls, three of which were killed instantly, and 49 had their horns taken off with knife hand blows.




LOL

_________________________
the only one being punished for posting more than one post in 60 minutes

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#103933 - 11/14/05 05:11 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: NomindNotrouble]
Blindsided Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 217
iev only been boxing for a few months and im going to fight my friend whos been taking gung foo for 4 years. I dont even think im going to try to stand up with him. we are both the same height and im a little bit heavier then him. I lift way more then him, i think im just going to charge in like a bull and ground and pound his ass lol.

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#103934 - 11/16/05 07:34 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: JohnL]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
Hey yall it was nice to read all yall lil respones to the "charging bull". And the asian dude killin a chargin bull with a punch(LOL).Its even more funny cuz bull can wieght up to 2000lb and run 40mph. Anway back on subject gettin out of the way kinda is the best thing to do and attack they sides.

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#103935 - 11/19/05 10:54 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: NomindNotrouble]
TaeKwonMiles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Cincinati, Ohio, United States
Use his momentum against him. When he charges at you grab his shirt and fall to your back, put your feet on his stomach and throw him over your head.

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#103936 - 11/22/05 03:56 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: MAGon]
SubZero Offline
Will breakfall for food

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 141
I use my chi to freeze them with ice from my fingertips, followed by a vicious uppercut, then before they hit the ground I take them out with a sliding sweep.
_________________________
"**** OFF! Judean People's Front...We're the PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA!" - The Life of Brian

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#103937 - 11/23/05 10:17 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: SubZero]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
LOL can some monderator lock this ahahahah.

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#103938 - 11/29/05 05:00 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: Blindsided]
TwistingKick Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 194
Loc: UK (oxford)
Quote:

iev only been boxing for a few months and im going to fight my friend whos been taking gung foo for 4 years. I dont even think im going to try to stand up with him. we are both the same height and im a little bit heavier then him. I lift way more then him, i think im just going to charge in like a bull and ground and pound his ass lol.




lol, erm... goodluck with that
_________________________
Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes!!

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#103939 - 11/29/05 08:58 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: Leapordsknowbest]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I agree. Time to lock this thread. This has gone on far too long.

Want to learn how to fight bulls? Do it properly and go to Seville, Andalucia, and learn from the best matador.

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#103940 - 12/11/05 05:26 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull? [Re: NomindNotrouble]
TaeKwonMiles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Cincinati, Ohio, United States
Grab his/her shirt, put your feet in their stomach, fall back and throw them over your head.

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