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#103844 - 12/17/03 01:44 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mrhubbs:
and speaking of hard to swallow myths and legends...(I apologize for hijacking this thread NomindNotrouble)

Has anyone ever heard the story of Gogen Yamaguchi "taming" a tiger with the mere power of his presence/stare?

There are so many of these ridiculous stories that they could really have their own thread.

Go on, go on, I dare you.

You're going to tell me he did it with his chi aren't you [IMG][/IMG]


#103845 - 12/17/03 01:50 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
NomindNotrouble Offline

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Lynwood, Ca Us
Hey, I'm also I biochemist. Chi is biomagnetic field that is produced due to electric exchange due to chemical reaction of the mitochondria's production of ATP. More mitochondria more chi!

But like I said before, I want to hear this.


#103846 - 12/17/03 06:02 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
Okay, you asked for it, but it makes the Oyama stories seem like regular old jiyu-kumite. [IMG][/IMG]

I remember this story from Peter Urban's book The Karate Dojo, which I threw in the garbage when I was a teenager, realizing even then that it was crap. As a result, I tried to track the story down on-line. Either I misremember it, or it exists in several permutations. Here the story doesn't involve a staredown, but an ACTUAL FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!! (Lord help us!)

(I copied this from some website related to Dragontimes. Look up Gogen Yamaguchi of Goju-Ryu and you will undoubtedly find this story told in several places. Or pick up Urban's book for a good laugh...)

"Urban states that when Yamaguchi was in Manchuria he was captured by the Chinese, who tried to break him by solitary confinement, near starvation and torture. They failed. Hitting on another idea, the Chinese obtained a tiger and didn't feed it for three days. Then they put Yamaguchi in the animal's cage, expecting him to be torn limb from limb.

But instead, Yamaguchi kicked the tiger in the nose and struck it in the head with his elbow before diving onto its back. He got the big cat into a stranglehold and, at the same time, "let out an intense, shattering scream, right into the ear of the animal." The tiger was strangled to death .

Naturally, some people doubt that this ever happened, and trying to look further into it only deepens the confusion. For one thing. Urban's details are shaky. He says that Gogen Yamaguchi was arrested in Manchuria by "the hostile Chinese Government," but at that time there was no Chinese Government in Manchuria (Manchukuo) it was a Republic controlled by the Japanese. Yamaguchi in his autobiography, makes no mention of being captured by the Chinese, of being tortured (by Chinese or Russians), or of fighting a tiger.

American karateman, James Genovese, who trained at the Goju-kai headquarters in the seventies, says that Yamaguchi denies the story (see Official Karate, August 1978). Yet, to confuse the matter still more in his interview with Roland Gaillac in the French magazine Karate (April 1977) Yamaguchi is quoted as saying: "In Manchuria one day I went away into the mountains and had a fight with a tiger. with bare hands. It was a terrible experience. I repeated this experience later, before witnesses. ("J'ai renouvele cette experience par la suite. devant temoins.")"

Again, I remember this story being told as Yamaguchi "taming" the tiger with the intensity of his stare/karate spirit, but whatever. People will do a lot of stupid things to promote themselves and their art. They will also believe a lot of things to justify their pursuits.

In any event, I hope you enjoyed the legend of Gogen "The Cat" Yamaguchi.

#103847 - 12/18/03 09:04 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Hey mrhubbs:

I have trouble getting my house moggy into a cat box to take it to the vet.

Clearly I have a long way to go as a MA.


#103848 - 12/18/03 10:03 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
Well, at least you have a goal. I suppose it's always best to start with the basics. ;


#103849 - 12/18/03 10:05 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
mrhubbs Offline

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 418
Loc: Carmel, NY 10512
There was supposed to be a "knowing wink" at the end of that last post [IMG][/IMG]

#103850 - 01/20/04 12:41 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
colowado Offline

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 2
Loc: Fort Collins, CO USA
This thread might be a little outdated, but I found it interesting so here's my toss:

While the stories of karate men fighting bulls and tigers are obviously of little value, the bull fighting analogy is a great way to answer the original question. How do you deal with a charging bull?

I'm a bit taller than you, NoMind, but I'm super skinny (despite my efforts [IMG][/IMG]). While my reach is helpful, it doesn't always finish the job when someone who is heavy is charging. But like a bull-fighter, the best way I've found to deal with these types of fighters is to lure them one way, and switch directions as they approach more closely. Watch a bullfight. The matador will slightly lead the bull on, let's say to the right. Not a big move, mind you, but subtle hints that he's moving to the right. The bull charges and as the beast gets close, the matador swirls to his left, escaping (albeit narrowly) danger. Likewise, when fighting someone who is a charger, you can "encourage" him to follow you in a particular direction. Moving out of the way as he gets close will send him past you.

Now, I'm certainly no master, but this has worked for me on occassion. There are of course details to be considered. When you make your evading move, are you moving to the opponents open or closed side? This has ramifactions on how quickly the opponent responds. Also, if you are able to send the opponent past you, you should probably think about countering with something at the same time. A reverse is what I typically end up using as the opponents kidney's are, for a brief moment, exposed.

OTOH, If someone is charging, you can always put your foot up to stop them. The chargers I work out with tend to get so overly focused on charging, that they forget about my feet. Since we all have reach advantage with our legs, it makes sense to stick a foot out there quickly, essentially halting the attack. (To cover my arse, the kick should be a good one, as a mack truck might just roll you over even after they take a kick to the ribs).

Just my thoughts. I could be way off base...

#103851 - 01/21/04 03:59 AM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
Shaolinboy Offline

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 256
Loc: England
[QUOTE]Originally posted by NomindNotrouble:
Ok, I'll set the background. I'm about 195lbs at 5'11''. I've taken judo, Brazilian jujitsu, tkd, kungfu, and a few other arts. I'm not much to sneeze at and I knw my stuff. My buddy does the pretty much the same but with only one differece between us, he's built solid like a mac truck. When we spar against each other its more like a hight speed chase. I had plenty of people say that I should stand my ground and use tatics, while they simply do the same. He's very intimidating. So question is how do you deal with your mack trucks? I don't want to hear from mack trucks themelves because I already know you have an advantage. I want to hear from others who dealt with them? How do you deal with a charging bull?[/QUOTE]

Sometimes you just can't meet force with force. I know that in Kung Fu we're taught to evade, and counter. Soft Martial Arts such as Aikido and Tai Chi teach using the opponents's strength against them.
When a car comes towards you doing 80 miles an hour, you're going to move out of the way or you'll get hit. So in other words use his strength against him.
I have sparred with guys bigger than me in my class and have managed to hold my own.
Use tactics, such as feints, draw him in, use footwork, don't stand still, don't ever turn your back, sidestep. When he is preparing to attack, attack him first, don't wait to block and counter, attack!

#103852 - 01/23/04 06:22 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?
karate-do Offline

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 428
Loc: Wales
I was not talking about oyama and you shouldnt immediately dismiss what i say as crap because it sounds incredible it takes 1600kg of pressure to smash a coconut into tiny pieces with a single blow ive seen many people do this as many are able to and if you look into it you will be able to watch some footage of it aswell, some people at the world championships in america did it which was shown on the discovery channel not long ago, take into acount that a human skull for instance takes just 1400kg of pressure then you can imagine how easily they can just smash through them now a bulls head will be stronger but not a lot i dont think it is that unreasonable if you look into it, a correct strike can shatter through skulls quite easily

#103853 - 01/23/04 08:18 PM Re: How do you deal with a charging bull?

A coconut that was secured so that it could not move-thereby forcing it to absorb all the force of the blow.
Striking a skull on a living being is quite different, unless of course you pin them down on a concrete surface-breath deeply for a minute,then strike.

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