MattJ

Don't blame you, his little "cost vs benefit" Q&A with almost everything got old fast.

Only time I even kinda felt good about it was doing a "cost vs benefit" breakdown of HIS class--on the final.

Good thing for me that he had a good sense of humor.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

CXT,

Wonderful post and absolutely to the point and "is" the conundrum that is current Martial Arts practice. We don't use swords and rocks anymore...but you do have small men looking to use their big thundersticks.

However, one must also recognize, if we were honest, that most of us originally started training in the MA to learn how to fight. Archaic as it might be...Martial still means some utiltiy in the defense area (HTH), but to what degree and to what extreme do we train with respect to appreciating modern weapons technology and the use of them?

The argument that most would use is that, what if you got into a fight and didn't have access to a weapon, what then? Exactly.

Now, do we practice as if we are going to the UFC....some do. I am too small and know that I would get smashed by these guys...but I try the best I can without placing any title of fighter or "street dude" on my shoulders and hope I practice with utility in mind. But this is the place that most martial arts shine...to encourage you not to be out there trying to get your "macho" out over another person.

This can happen in two ways...one may be that philosophical aspect to not engage in fighting for reasons outside of sport or defense...another is to actually get your ass handed to you. If you get too big for your britches, think of the bigger dogs that are out there with weapons and consider what they may do.

But still for the life of me....if I went over to a friend's house and he had a book of poetry (and I do like poetry) and he had a knife collection on a coffee table....I know which one I'd be picking up first to look at...and it wouldn't be the book.

-B

Butterfly

I agree.

What I am trying to do is NOT get all caught up in the whole style/training method thing.

Read a great article recently--(which I will try and find the link to)-about all the time and effort folks spend arguing about this training or that style and how it "may" work in some hypothetical "real" encounter.
And what supposed "advantages" this has over that.

Its fun to do at times and I suppose it could be considered informative on some level.
But at the end of the day I think a "real" encounter is almost never what we think its going to be.
And argueing about hypotheticals is ultimatly of little real value.

Other than if folks are having a good time doing so of course [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

Hey, what do you know! Both CXT and JKogas are right.

-B

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
JKogas

You know what else "speaks volumes" the fact you don't need ANY form of HTH MA to defend yourself at all.

A gun is a far better weapon--more effective, can be used with less physically intense training, size "really" does not matter a little kid or the smallest women can kill the biggest baddist guy. [/QUOTE]

Even better than that is complete avoidance of potential trouble to begin with. That’s the choice I always make. But I enjoy fighting (sparring to knock out and wrestling to submission). It’s great fun. To be the best at those things, the LAST thing I’d want to do is waste what little time I have. Kata for me, would do that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Heck, look at the number of violent attacks in any major city.
The numer of attacks compared to the number of people living in the city pretty much means that VERY few people are EVER the victem of violent crime--the number gets REALLY small when you look at the nature of the attack--as in how many of them could have been avoided thu MA training--such as people being shot.
Like I said above--being an expert HTH fighter does you little good in a gun fight.
[/QUOTE]

That’s true. Good thing I’m not a violent person or, a person with the propensity for finding himself in trouble spots or the proverbial, “wrong place at the wrong time”. But I wasn’t talking about self defense issues, I was specifically speaking of fighting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

And many self-defense situations can be best addressed thu the use of simple common sense--don't go place and do things that are risky. [/QUOTE]

That’s always the best choice. The instinct for self-preservation is always something to be preferred over the ability for self defense.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

As one of old econ profs used to tease me about--why spend all that time, energy, expense, sweat and pain, when the chances of EVER havin gto use your skills is so remote--and if your "really" worried then why "waste" your time at all with skills of such limited utility? [/QUOTE]

Because competition is fun. Because a little sweat is a good thing. I could go on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Esp since much of street crime involves a gun?[/QUOTE]

That’s why avoidance is always the preferred choice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

If being a "great fighter" (I assume you mean no weapon and HTH is your only critria of value)--then you have to admit that being a "great fighter" in HTH in world full of people with guns and documented willingness to use them is of VERY limited utility. [/QUOTE]

Absolutely – if I were speaking of street fighting, if I were speaking of going out and picking “bar fights”, etc. But that’s not even REMOTELY what I’m referring to when talking of becoming a great fighter.

In my opinion, becoming a great fighter is an athletic pursuit. It’s something that occurs within the gym, not the street. It’s not some title that I might brand upon myself by going out and picking fights with people in bars or elsewhere. I most certainly wouldn’t do that sort of thing. There’s no honor in street fighting.

I thought that most everyone who knew me by now would have already realized where I was coming from.


-John

Jkogas

The key words there are "for me."
For others its not such a "waste."

I always say if it works for you--then do it.
If it does not work for you--then don't.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Jkogas

The key words there are "for me."
For others its not such a "waste."

I always say if it works for you--then do it.
If it does not work for you--then don't.[/QUOTE]


That's why I use that manner of speech.

However I still stand with the fact that kata isn't a necessity for becoming a good fighter. That won't change.

That said, if kata is "fun" for you and others or if you derive any sort of benefit away from fighting, more power to you and all. Do it to your heart's content.

-John

JKogas (and CXT)

And another great post! Now I remember why I still read these forums outside the stupidity of little kids, it is out of a civil contention of ideas...with elements of truth that belong to two parties with logical arguments. Hey now, I applaud you both.

But as a nod to the original topic...I still rather do pad work and working with resisting opponents than Kata....but that's me.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

-B

Anyone wanting another view. Read Multiversed post on the purpose of kata in the talk forum. Great post.

Jkogas

I never said that I was a great fighter at all and you took what I had wrote way out of context. I myself have a conceal carry permit and carry a Sig Sauer P239 9mm. I also instruct a combat pistol course. A trained professional is the best in any of the situations. But this threat is about kata's. I would talk about guns with you all day but I think that you are some guy that probable carries looking for crime so that you can save us all from big bad cities of crime.