I suppose if you have limited access to training partners, kata might be better than nothing. For the life of me though, I can't see how having a lack of partners is possible in this day and age.

In my opinion, considering that I have a limited amount of time available to train - I personally want that training to be as alive as possible. I want to optimize that available time. Its hard for me to fathom spending any of the precious time doing some kind of solo drill. But that's just me.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattJ:
Satter -

I was under the impression that ninpo taijutsu did not have kata in the traditional Okinawan/Japanese sense.

Are you refering to prescribed self defense technique practice? We did a lot of that in American kenpo, and yes, injuries were common.

I do not really consider those kata in tha manner being thought of in this thread, though.[/QUOTE]
Bujinkan has katas, but yes they are a little bit different.
These katas are shorter than your normal karate katas, and we have katas that are precribed self defense techniques, but we also have normal katas (just a little bit shorter).

People that don't really understand kata are never going to get it.
They often are totally blind to the shortcomings of their own training regimens.

They also have little grasp of history or how kata relates to the practice of martial arts.

Don't think you can actually reason with people that don't get it--they are not actually intersted in either reason or logic.
For them its a BELIEF system--and anything that does not support their belief is considered "wrong."

Course there are many folks on the kata side that have the same erronous belief system as well.

Like to different relgions--neither one understands that both have elements of "truth."

Satter,
I apologize for the misinterpretation of your post. I thought you were making fun with "doing a kata on someone". Sorry. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I didn't realize that your style has short kata that you actually "do" to someone.

No problem.

Hmmm....how can I say this?

OK, let me say it directly...

Kata is simply a training method for teaching correct footwork, body placement, hand positioning, and ki extension. Kata doesn't mean anything unless it's in relation to someone attacking you. Hence bunkai or application.

So a "2-person kata" is also valid.

Now here's the kicker: If you do a 2-person kata quickly, what do you get? What does it look like? Now do it with someone charging at you with intent to strike. What does that look like?

Most people already know that kata is not a contiguous paradigm - i.e. you cannot apply movements from a kata contiguously in response to an attack. But you can take a short non-contiguous sequences of kata movements and apply that as ONE particular response to a specific attack.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:
Hmmm....how can I say this?

OK, let me say it directly...

Kata is simply a training method for teaching correct footwork, body placement, hand positioning, and ki extension...
[/QUOTE]

And KI extension.


There you go folks!

-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 04-24-2005).]

Ahh, guilt by association....

Kata is just a convenient package...if you don't like it, train, and we'll train together later...

Kata are like the encyclopedia of a systems.

Can they be used in combat or in sparring? They are everyday in individual techniques or combinations but not in Kata sequence people don't fight in patterns, left then right side.

I value Kata as much as I do shadow boxing or randori, it gives you a chance to practice your techniques. Once you have the pattern down you can use the techniques in the kata to train as you do in shadow boxing. I can work up as much sweat doing all the Katas I know as I can Shadow boxing.

Value of kata I've used it to defend in sparring matchs were my mind went blank and I was caught off guard.

I've used Sepias mid level parry & grions strike in real fights and its over shoulder arm break or submission on the street handling two opponents. I've used the lighting snap punches on Saisan to knock men out, did it feel like the Kata? No the hands came from my side right into the strike not from a dual forearm uke. But it was the same strike. I've also delivered the front kick elbow strike of Shisosan. Elbows & Fore knuckled strike of Saifa ect...

In my base system I am now in admiration of how simple and usable Kata technique are. Those guys were genious, after trying to devise Kata myself. I Once wanted fancy stuff as young competitor, but simple is econmical and effective.

When you start studying the internal side of your art you will start seeing the Chi strikes and merdian manipulation used to heal and destroy.

I know some of you young guys think this MA BS, but seeing is believing. Kata maps this out, wait and you will see.

Herbal, Accupuncher and Accuppressor is an science, that works. Its at the near end of every Martial Art once you get there and you look.

I'm not trying to convince any one, everybodies journey through the MA is different.

I only need to say one name and thats it and I know that you probable say " Oh what ever." But the name is....BRUCE LEE.