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#103396 - 04/25/05 01:15 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Rouge

What about "Bruce Lee?"

Spent his formative years getting a solid foundation in a very traditional system.
Complete with kata.




[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103397 - 04/25/05 01:21 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


In Judo, kata is performed w/ 2 people.

In Shorinji Kempo, it isn't called kata, but the attack/response exercize uses 2 people & each has a name. For me, all those names were confusing (& I speak some Japanese) - a different name for each technique or variation of the technique.

I prefer karate-style kata that encorporate several techniques in a flowing series. The only other difference is that in SK, the techniques are literal & in kata it's interpretive. Very economical because you don't need to know each minor variation. You learn the basic concept & apply w/ your own variation.

And I'd like to reiterate: performing kata is NOT a choreographed fight against multiple opponents.

[This message has been edited by hedkikr (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103398 - 04/25/05 01:38 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


Spent his formative years training in Wing Chun and then brokle off after finding that it took to long to end the fight. Sok he promoted being formless and shapeless like water. I know that, that little insert came from one of his innerviews but bruce showed that to be free thinking and using everything in your arsenal is optimal. Sometimes forms limit ones thinking or become over kill. Im not completly saying that forms dont have anyplace. I think that forms are a great start for any one starting a new art or starting out from the beinging. But after a while if they just stay the same they become stale and leaves nothing to look forward to.

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#103399 - 04/25/05 02:01 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Rouge

Many ways to deal with this.

1-As per what I have read from some WC guys, Bruce never really was all that good with WC.
And how could he have been--"really" only spent a few years, and a boy/teenager training WC.
Which considering that the guys that Lee trained with (as a student) are teaching WC WITH the kata intact, well, should give you another viewpoint.

2-For a guy that was involved in only ONE supportable fight--and even that one has a number of eyewitness that disagree as to what exactly went down, Lee was certainly outspoken in his opinion of kata.

3-As a chinese stylist, and one with little time spent in the system that trained in, Lee was in no position to offer authoritative views on the kata practiced elsewhere, in other systems, such as karate or other chinese arts.

4-A number of folks that trained with Lee, Norris, Jhoon Ree, any number of karate guys---despite training with him--still trained in and retained kata training in their respective systems.

5-Holding Lee up as some kind of MA "uber" authority is questionable at best.
He even lifted the quote you mention--"being like water" from OTHER MA guys--the concept and quote PRE-DATE Lee by a couple of decades and a couple of 100 years depending on the person you wish to use.

If your wishing to have a whole "Bruce Lee" debate--please check the multiple threads where this has been done to death.
Including a really good one that used modern sport analysis techniques to determine just how strong etc Lee "really" was in modern terms--and he really is not so impressive.

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#103400 - 04/25/05 02:25 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am impressed, and I really mean that. I really just wanted to see if you would give me an answer that would hail the great Bruce lee as a god. I do not. Bruce was a thinker and I will give him that. But one of the greatest martial artist of all time I think not. If being the greatest martial artist of all time only takes a movie career then sign me up for lessons under Jean Claude van damm. Forms do have there place and are great for training. But I think that its good to change it up from time to time. My students have forms that they complete under wing chun and kenpo. They also learn Muay thai and western boxing. But their learing does not stop with me. I give them what I can and then lead them in the right direction. I usually turn them over to a great martial arts training center The jasukai marital art training center in provo utah.


[This message has been edited by Rougewarrior (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103401 - 04/25/05 03:54 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Everyone's opinion of kata is going to differ. That's always going to be the case.

One thing that will not change is the fact that kata isn't a necessity for becoming a great fighter.

I think that speaks volumes.


-John

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#103402 - 04/25/05 03:59 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


RougeWarrior so that is your Jeetkunedo, great and MA is and endless book. Lee did effect in that you point the way to advance study after they forfil your requirements.

As for Lee being a great fighter or teacher, he is Great because years after his death he is still held with great respect and talk about him to this day, and on into the future.

As Achilles, B.P. said to the littel boy in Troy. That is why you will be forgotten, because you will never acheive greatness, because you are afraid.

As for being great in Wing chun, I gather from the people in the know he was only at Black slash level Intermediate/ begining advance level. Which would indicate he was not a master but far from a beginer.

Which is a good foundation to buld a base from. Most people thought him a better fighter/technican then teacher and he did like sparring anybody that could spar. He himself would say I can't teach you anything I can only ....

He did not like teaching beginers with no skill, its said that Guru Dan is a better teacher. But Insanto would say that he can't do physical speed/timing/strength things that Bruce could do and its why his Jeetkunedo is so different. And anybody thats worked with Guru Dan knows he quite powerful.

All the new flangle Filipino and Silat stuff say they don't teach Kata but they do. They say the intent is different in that it never been a sport always a self defense. But I get the same feel a sequence of moves to learn one way of doing various set of techniques, some done to music to set timing.

STILL THE SAME THING.

Bruce was a taoist philosopher the Punch being just a punch is Taoist monk quote.

In honesty he never said those ideal were his he only stated them, to make his point.

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103403 - 04/25/05 04:16 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lee was a great martial artist but you will see time and time again that he is refered to as the greatest martial artist of our time. He should be refered to as the most reconized martial artist of our time. I think that there are many minds right know that have great ideas and fresh ideas that would make Mr. Lee very proud. I too left wing chun to go to the military at a young age at black sash. But when I returned from serving my contry I found that in the fights that I got into in the bars (not my fault) wing chun didnt always work. So I also used my early muay thai training and with the combination of both styles it made me a more affective fighter.

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#103404 - 04/25/05 04:22 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
JKogas

You know what else "speaks volumes" the fact you don't need ANY form of HTH MA to defend yourself at all.

A gun is a far better weapon--more effective, can be used with less physically intense training, size "really" does not matter a little kid or the smallest women can kill the biggest baddist guy.

Heck, look at the number of violent attacks in any major city.
The numer of attacks compared to the number of people living in the city pretty much means that VERY few people are EVER the victem of violent crime--the number gets REALLY small when you look at the nature of the attack--as in how many of them could have been avoided thu MA training--such as people being shot.
Like I said above--being an expert HTH fighter does you little good in a gun fight.

And many self-defense situations can be best addressed thu the use of simple common sense--don't go place and do things that are risky.

As one of old econ profs used to tease me about--why spend all that time, energy, expense, sweat and pain, when the chances of EVER havin gto use your skills is so remote--and if your "really" worried then why "waste" your time at all with skills of such limited utility?
Esp since much of street crime involves a gun?

If being a "great fighter" (I assume you mean no weapon and HTH is your only critria of value)--then you have to admit that being a "great fighter" in HTH in world full of people with guns and documented willingness to use them is of VERY limited utility.


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103405 - 04/25/05 05:16 PM Re: Kata as Self-Defense
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote by cxt -

[QUOTE]And many self-defense situations can be best addressed thu the use of simple common sense--don't go place and do things that are risky.[/QUOTE]

THE BEST SD ADVICE EVER!!!

[QUOTE]As one of old econ profs used to tease me about--why spend all that time, energy, expense, sweat and pain, when the chances of EVER havin gto use your skills is so remote--and if your "really" worried then why "waste" your time at all with skills of such limited utlity?
Esp since much of street crime involves a gun?

If being a "great fighter" (I assume you mean no weapon and HTH is your only critria of value)--then you have to admit that being a "great fighter" in HTH in world full of people with guns and documented willingness to use them is of VERY limited utility.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry cxt.....but I think I'm going to have to kick your econ prof's ass for making me ponder that point.

*MattJ enjoys a thorazine break with the talking dish towel*

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