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#103235 - 04/22/05 06:26 PM Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The following I posted on another topic but because it didnt match the original one and because Sanchin quite rightly said i should start a new thread, here it is:

If there is a demand for something and the market is left to its own devices, then (living in a capitalist system) there will be a supply.
But, there are things called negative externalities, such as factories polluting the water and we pay to clean the water.
In other words there are certain products which require some sort of intervention from the government so that the rights of every citizen are protected and so that there will be increased welfare.
Free education, unemployment benefits etc etc.
Withtin this in my opinion, lies public safety.
And i believe that it is in the interest of public safety that guns are banned from civilian use.
Of course like you said there is no point in having such a law, if gangsters can still get a hold of guns and people cant, because that works to the disadvantage of the civilian.
But if the law is enforced correctly then gun related deaths would go down.
And crime related deaths would also go down.

In my opinion and i am sure you agree with me.
The best option would be to educate people to a standard that they would not use guns by their own accord. That is highly unrealistic because like you said there is not enough money for that to go around.

Its a very tricky situation,
but you are right, it comes down to education, not the law,
If people want to do it they will do it.

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#103236 - 04/22/05 06:36 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A gun puts my wife equal with a 350lb thug who wants to break in my home. In the state where I live I have the option to get a license to carry a gun,however I've opted not to simply because I don't want someone stealing it from my car if I had to go in somewhere.
GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE,PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.
I keep guns for my safety,hunting,and target shooting. People will abuse the right to have guns and they would if there was a law or not.
There are laws that prevent felons from possesing firearms,hasn't worked yet! Do you think banning would be different?

[This message has been edited by SANCHIN31 (edited 04-22-2005).]

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#103237 - 04/22/05 06:45 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by SANCHIN31:
A gun puts my wife equal with a 350lb thug who wants to break in my home. In the state where I live I have the option to get a license to carry a gun,however I've opted not to simply because I don't want someone atealing it from my car if I had to go in somewhere.
GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE,PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE.
I keep guns for my safety,hunting,and target shooting. People will abuse the right to have guns and they would if there was a law or not.
There are laws that prevent felons from possesing firearms,hasn't worked yet! Do you think banning would be different?
[/QUOTE]

Good points sanchin I agree completely.

I think the way to decrease criminal acts, gun related or other is to increase the penalties. Criminals know the legal system is a joke in most countries. So why not do the crime when the reprecushion is minimal.

Dont eliminate the tools the bad guys will just find a new one.

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#103238 - 04/22/05 07:41 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Arg, this is why I'm glad about the gun laws in NZ. Just about to go for my gun licence, and I have to get two people interviewed by the police to make sure i'm not a nutcase (one has to be a family member) and have to pass a test, as well as get the police to come to my house and make sure I have a gun safe that an average thief/small child wont be able to break into. Assuming you pass this you are allowed to own rifles/shotguns only (bolt action, lever or pump). To own a handgun you have to be a member of a pistol club for at least 6 months and known to go there regularly (this gets checked out by the police). Even then its only allowed to be fired on the gun range.

Nice result because your average Joe dosn't own a firearm of any type, only people in the country really ever seem to have them. Makes me feel reasonably snug and safe [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#103239 - 04/22/05 07:59 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally I'm a strong gun advocate. Guns help to leave the playing field no matter the size of the person, however I feel that if you're going to take the responsibility of own or carrying one, you need to learn how to do so responsibly.

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#103240 - 04/23/05 12:26 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


When considering using a gun in self defense do you think about the mental aspects of taking a life? You need to.
If I caught someone in my home and pulled a gun on him I wouldn't shoot unless I had no other choice. If he turned to run I'd let him go. There's nothing like the sound of a slide and chamber of a 12 guage in the dark to make the biggest and baddest crap their pants and run!!

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#103241 - 04/23/05 12:48 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
The irony is that after gun laws are passed and crime rises, no one asks whether the original laws actually accomplished their purpose. Instead, it is automatically assumed that the only "problem" with past laws was they didn't go far enough. But now what is there left to do? Perhaps the country can follow Australia's recent lead and ban ceremonial swords.

Despite the attention that imitation weapons are getting, they account for a miniscule fraction of all violent crime (0.02%) and in recent years only about 6% of firearms offenses. But with crime so serious, Labor needs to be seen as doing something. The government recently reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the four years from 1998-99 to 2002-03.

Crime was not supposed to rise after handguns were banned in 1997. Yet, since 1996 the serious violent crime rate has soared by 69%: robbery is up by 45% and murders up by 54%. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.

The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S.

Britain is not alone in its experience with banning guns. Australia has also seen its violent crime rates soar to rates similar to Britain's after its 1996 Port Arthur gun control measures. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law in 1995. The same comparisons for armed robbery rates showed increases of 74%.

During the 1990s, just as Britain and Australia were more severely regulating guns, the U.S. was greatly liberalizing individuals' abilities to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now have so-called right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed handguns once they pass a criminal background check and pay a fee. Only half the states require some training, usually around three to five hours' worth. Yet crime has fallen even faster in these states than the national average. Overall, the states in the U.S. that have experienced the fastest growth rates in gun ownership during the 1990s have experienced the biggest drops in murder rates and other violent crimes. -Quoted from article by Dr.Jon Lott

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#103242 - 04/23/05 02:20 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]There's nothing like the sound of a slide and chamber of a 12 guage in the dark to make the biggest and baddest crap their pants and run!![/QUOTE]


amen to that .....click clack clicka [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#103243 - 04/23/05 02:25 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just goes to show that new laws aren't needed. What's needed is stricter enforcement of old laws.

How many times have you watched cops and seen felons with guns? Alot!

[This message has been edited by SANCHIN31 (edited 04-23-2005).]

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#103244 - 04/23/05 02:14 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by SANCHIN31:
Just goes to show that new laws aren't needed. What's needed is stricter enforcement of old laws.

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#103245 - 04/24/05 06:08 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nekogami,
With all due respect, I do not live n a fantasy world. I am an economist, so if you want to pull up a load of statistics to prove something, that says nothing to me.
I can paint you a picture with different statistics that will show the opposite of what you are saying.
First of all you do not know if after the banning law passed, whether gun crime would have gone up anyway. Maybe the law even slowed the inevitable rise of handgun use.
Maybe you are the one who is right.
I used to own a gun, it does not bother me anymore that the bailifs came and took it.

Lat me tell you a story.
My friend had a summer house and his dad kept a few handguns and shotguns that were for private use. One night (whilst everyone was sleeping) their house got robbed. The thieves used that spray that makes you not wake up. In the morning they woke up to find everything stolen, including all the firearms.
The problem with my friend ownng guns in that scenario is twofold.

1. They stole the guns and now they are going to be used for illegal purposes and possible killings.

2. If they had wolen up, the result might have been a gun fight, which would probably end up with the deaths of the whole family.

Do you see how badly the situation could have potentially gotten?

Guns, depersonalise the killing.
You will think twice before stabbing someone.
And secondly they are not to be trusted in the hands of immature people.
The fact is that if it is harder for you to get a gun, the lesss likely you are to use it.

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#103246 - 04/24/05 06:17 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you own guns,buy a safe.If you're away your guns will not be stolen.
They need to enforce the laws they already have in place. If they ban guns the only ones who will be without them will be law abiding citizens.

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#103247 - 04/24/05 08:00 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Violent crime rose-not just gun crime.
All violent crime.

State of Texas had a 36% decrease in ALL violent crime after the concealed carry bill passed.
All violent crime, not just offenses with a firearm.

An armed society is a polite society-Robert Heinlein

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 V2.0 (edited 04-24-2005).]

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#103248 - 04/24/05 11:20 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've always living in countries with tough gun laws (NZ then Japan). The only guns I ever seen or used are rifles and shotguns (hunting). Personally I think the only people who should have handguns are the cops.

I've always felt safe knowing there aren't many guns around and those that are, are in the hand of trained professinals (police, military). And that any average Joe that owns one must get a licence and can only own weapons for sport. Handguns are only allowed if you are a member of a handgun club, and the licence is harder then. When you get your licence the poilce inspect your house and make sure you have a safe and that your guns are kept unloaded and the bullets keep in another location.

You can argue with me if you like, but its a statiscial fact that countries with tough gun laws (keep in my guns aren't banned, just concealable handguns and automatic weapons, lol) the violent gun-crime rates are much lower. If you don't believe me, look it up. Ten times the number of causties of 911 die in the US from gun crime every year! Not only that, a captured El Quida textbook cited the US as one of the best places for terroists to get weapons! Scary.

However whether the lower violent crimes rates are due to gun laws or not is debatable. Micheal Moore's excellent, if somewhat bias film "Bowling for Columbine" asks some good questions about this. For example, many people in Canada own guns but the gun crime rate doesn't even come that of the US. Why?

Another question, why allow ordinary Joes own automatic weapons? Those kids at Comlubine where pumping kids full of cheap 9mm rounds bought for a few cents at teh local Walmart! With sub-machine guns! I mean COME ON! What kind of county allows that to happen?

Another fact, most gun deaths in the US are actaully due to accident (kids fiddling with loaded weapons) NOT crime.

Banning guns is absurd and against democratic freedom to an extent I agree (some of us like sport). But allowing anyone to run around with a MP5 or M16 is just nuts! There must be some control on who owns what weapons.

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-24-2005).]

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#103249 - 04/24/05 11:26 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
JayJay, did you just ignore my post?

UK has a higher violent crime rate than the US, Australia also-both banned guns.

The Columbine incident had nothing to do with automatic weapons-they used semi-auto. There is a big difference.



[This message has been edited by nekogami13 V2.0 (edited 04-24-2005).]

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#103250 - 04/24/05 11:40 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Violent crime or gun-crime. Violent crime includes assault and in that case I would believe you. But I've been to Australia many times, recently and to big cities and "dodgy areas" and I can see no evidence of this "failure of gun control". Nor can I find any evidence on the net.

In London the VIOLENT crime rate has gone up including 4000 gun crimes. Still nowhere near the US.

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-24-2005).]

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#103251 - 04/24/05 11:45 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


THE TRUTH ABOUT AUSTRALIA

The National Rifle Association likes to tell tall tales about Australia. The best one is that gun control Down Under is a failure.

April 28th, 2003, marked the 7th anniversary of the Port Arthur Massacre, Australia's most devastating gun tragedy, in which a disturbed man went on a killing spree that left 35 dead and 19 injured. The massacre catalyzed a demand for comprehensive gun control. By 1997, Australia's States and Territories had passed the most significant gun law reforms in their history, including a ban on semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns; registration of all firearms and licensing of all shooters; and safe storage requirements for guns and ammunition.[1]

To persuade gun-owners to turn in their semi-automatic long guns, the Australian government established a buyback program, funded by the Federal Government and administered by the States and Territories. Reimbursements were generous; the program eventually cost over $320 million Australian dollars and resulted in over 643,000 guns being turned in.[2] Per capita, the Australian buyback was massive, equivalent to an estimated 40 million guns in the US.[3]

Has anything changed in Australia since the new laws went into effect? Between 1987 and 1996, 100 Australians were killed in mass killings of four or more people. Since the new laws went into effect, there has not been a single massacre. Moreover, in Australia, homicides committed with firearms have been declining - slowly before the Port Arthur Massacre, more sharply since - from 28 percent of all homicides in 1989-90 to 16 percent in 2001.[4] While the 1996 gun laws did not initiate the decline in firearm homicides, they appear to have accelerated it.

Along with the declining use of firearms in homicide, Australia has seen a decline in the use of firearms in armed robberies. From 1993 to 2001, the proportion of robberies committed with a firearm dropped from 16 to 6 percent.[5]

Suicide rates using a firearm show a sharp drop from 1979-98 with rates continuing to drop after 1996 [6] and firearm-related accidental injuries in Australia are also declining.[7] Public health experts see these declines as related to tighter controls over who may obtain a gun, stricter requirements for training and safe storage, and longer waiting periods for obtaining gun licenses.

The next time a credulous friend tells you that Australia actually experienced more crime when it got tougher on crime, offer your friend a Fosters and a helping of truth.

We need some Aussie on here for their point of view too.

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#103252 - 04/24/05 11:47 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]I've always living in countries with tough gun laws (NZ then Japan). The only guns I ever seen or used are rifles and shotguns (hunting). Personally I think the only people who should have handguns are the cops. [/QUOTE]

I hope the bad guys will follow this.

[QUOTE]I've always felt safe knowing there aren't many guns around and those that are, are in the hand of trained professinals (police, military). And that any average Joe that owns one must get a licence and can only own weapons for sport. Handguns are only allowed if you are a member of a handgun club, and the licence is harder then. When you get your licence the poilce inspect your house and make sure you have a safe and that your guns are kept unloaded and the bullets keep in another location.[/QUOTE]

I've always felt safe near my Desert Eagle and 12ga. at night. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] What good would it do me to have the bullets in another place when I'm at home?

[QUOTE]You can argue with me if you like, but its a statiscial fact that countries with tough gun laws (keep in my guns aren't banned, just concealable handguns and automatic weapons, lol) the violent gun-crime rates are much lower. If you don't believe me, look it up. Ten times the number of causties of 911 die in the US from gun crime every year! Not only that, a captured El Quida textbook cited the US as one of the best places for terroists to get weapons! Scary.[/QUOTE]

Can you reference this statistical fact for me? Statistics aren't facts.

[QUOTE]However whether the lower violent crimes rates are due to gun laws or not is debatable. Micheal Moore's excellent, if somewhat bias film "Bowling for Columbine" asks some good questions about this. For example, many people in Canada own guns but the gun crime rate doesn't even come that of the US. Why?[/QUOTE]

Michael Moore is a nut case driven by greed.


[QUOTE]You can argue with me if you like, but its a statiscial fact that countries with tough gun laws (keep in my guns aren't banned, just concealable handguns and automatic weapons, lol) the violent gun-crime rates are much lower. If you don't believe me, look it up. Ten times the number of causties of 911 die in the US from gun crime every year! Not only that, a captured El Quida textbook cited the US as one of the best places for terroists to get weapons! Scary.[/QUOTE]

You should look it up before listing it as fact.

[QUOTE]Another question, why allow ordinary Joes own automatic weapons? Those kids at Comlubine where pumping kids full of cheap 9mm rounds bought for a few cents at teh local Walmart! With sub-machine guns! I mean COME ON! What kind of county allows that to happen?[/QUOTE]

Ordinary Joes aren't allowed to own automatic weapons! You have to get a license,but that law(like any other) only applies to LAW ABIDING citizens.Another one of your facts?

[QUOTE]Another fact, most gun deaths in the US are actaully due to accident (kids fiddling with loaded weapons) NOT crime.[/QUOTE]

Again,where do you get your"facts"?

[QUOTE]Banning guns is absurd and against democratic freedom to an extent I agree (some of us like sport). But allowing anyone to run around with a MP5 or M16 is just nuts! There must be some control on who owns what weapons.[/QUOTE]

Tell me the difference between what you think we should have and shouldn't.

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#103253 - 04/24/05 11:51 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA

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#103254 - 04/24/05 11:54 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
You keep talking only GUN crime-I am talking VIOLENT crime.
Crimes involving Violence-whether with a gun or not.

Australia's VIOLENT crime rate went up.

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#103255 - 04/25/05 12:01 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good links Neko. And yes indeed the violent crime rate has gone up. But is that because of gun control or other factors (immergation, issues with aboringines). Both you and Sanchin make very good points and I respect your debating skills, but I am still to be convinced about "guns causing less crime". Still seems like an oxymoron to me.

Yes Sanchin, those figure were off the top of my head and probally not correct, sorry, my bad. But I still have never had any problems with guns, ever. The only time I saw lots of guns was when I visited my family in the US.

Both side have their statstics and I'm not really sure what to believe.

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103256 - 04/25/05 12:09 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
Facts from the Uniform Crime Report 2003-FBI:
In 2003, most of these violent crimes, 30.7 percent, were committed with personal weapons(hands, fists, feet, etc.), 26.9 of these offenses, firearms were the weapon of choice.
Knives or cutting instruments accounted for 15.2 percent of the weapons used in these violent crimes, other weapons were employed in 27.3 percent of these offenses.

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#103257 - 04/25/05 12:16 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
One more thing to think about:

Think about this:

a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Then think about this:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

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#103258 - 04/25/05 12:21 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Another reason for me to bite my tongue. According to stats New Zealand and Finland have among the top 5 highest violent crime rates in the world!

I'm from NZ but only saw one in my life. But both Finland and NZ have small populations. Does that have anything to do with the stats? NZ certianly didn't seem violent to me.

Damn Neko, you know your stuff. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103259 - 04/25/05 12:27 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sanchin, In 2003 350,000 crimes invloved firearms in the US (I admit, it doesnt say if the victims died or not). And interestingly 57% of actual deaths where suicides. 3 to 4,000 people died in 911. So what I said was right, at least that time, but I didn't back it up. Sorry. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103260 - 04/25/05 12:40 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
crimes involved firearms-does not say they were used.
Only that a firearm was present during commision of a crime.

The statistics are crime rates adjusted for population size.
Usualy acts per 100,000 people.

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#103261 - 04/25/05 12:42 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Crimes involving firearms means robberies and such. A gun crime doesn't have to mean it was even fired.

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#103262 - 04/25/05 01:06 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am still with Sanchin on this one. I agreed with another poster MaGon awhile back who mentioned incidents involving guns and their use for protection. Whether anyone likes it or not, the bad guys have them...and if I have a choice to protect me and mine with one...I'll take the choice of having one.

-B

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#103263 - 04/25/05 06:49 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Listen to yourself.
The bad guys have them!!!
You are so paranoid.
When was the last time you confronted someone with a gun. Its easy to say i have, over the internet.
But I dont believe you.
Fact is that if you are going to allow people to own handgun, you have got to educate them and you have got to do stict psychological screening. I m not against rifles and shotguns for sport, and you can use a shotgun for self defence.
handguns are made for killing.
Again, statistics can show anything you want them to show, there is no use in comparing stats.
I am talking about gun crime, not violent crime. I would rather have the crap kicked out of me than shot. I would rather be stabbed than shot. There are no eseis(spelling) with AKs on the streets in London, and armed robberies are rare. In Brazil, where you can get an automatic for around 50 bucks, people dont keep their money in banks anymore and there is a financial crisis.
I dont trust poeple with guns. And the arguement that if bad guys have them then i should have them. Is crap. NOONE should have them.
You can say what you want about Michael Moore, but all you know is what people have said of him. I dont know him, he might be a complete idiot, but at least he is raising questions, and not just sitting there staring blankly at the world.
All I know about gun crime, is through the media, and that is a highly unreliable source of perspective i admit. But to deny a trend between gun ownership and gun deaths is ignorant.
http://www.guninformation.org/

please look at the site.

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#103264 - 04/25/05 07:20 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Just goes to show that new laws aren't needed. What's needed is stricter enforcement of old laws[/QUOTE]


Please read www.keepandbeararms.com

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#103265 - 04/25/05 12:23 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


What do you mean that you would be rather stabbed than shot!? Are you crazy? You have a greater chance of dying if you are stabbed. If you are shot most of the time its going to just hit the meat. But when you are stabbed the knife can still enter in the body over, over, and over again. Plus if anyone is trained to use the blade, they are trained to kill. Plain and smiple. A guncan defuse the situation alot quicker and most of the time stop violent crimes from happening. In the US when we are introble we call who...the police who have guns. So are you telling me that police officers shouldnt have weapons?

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#103266 - 04/25/05 12:34 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
According to studies from ER stats, a knife wound is 20 times more likely to kill you then a gunshot wound.

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#103267 - 04/25/05 01:11 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


MAGr,

Now when I agreed with MAGon, take a look at the archives: He had been held up a couple of times. He also had to contend with an armed home invasion robbery attempt against he and his wife. One of my friends, his first day in the states, confronted with an armed ganster....now You tell me you don't want to protect yourself...fine.

Don't tell me not too...I don't think I am paranoid. But what I have stated is the truth. If you are lucky to live in a perfect world...please invite me along. I would be happy to give up my gun, if I was certain everyone else would to, but it ain't gonna happen. Whether you believe it or not.

-B

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#103268 - 04/25/05 01:54 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the problem will always be here.

There are people who responsibly own firearms and value their right to their possession. They take issue with people who want to disarm them for their "own good".

There are people who own or acquire firearms who are less than committed to their personal resonsibilities.

There are criminals who clearly should not have access to firearms for any reason.

And there are people who do not own firearms and see them as unnecessary and unreasonably dangerous. They do not trust gun owners and feel that armed citizens are paranoid fanatics who will not responsibly maintain their weapons.

It boils down to weighing the risk and playing the numbers. Everyone has stats that can support their opinion.

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#103269 - 04/25/05 03:07 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let's just say that if people want to carry fire arms let them. And for those who think that fire arms are unnessasary then let them think that. Yes there are those out there who misuse their right to carry fire arms (americans) but there are always going to be those type of people. I know that other contries like having the no gun laws but, americans like having that right and if it makes them feel safe and more like an american then let them. I for one am pro gun but I think that the obtainiblity of a handgun is very lax in our contry. A 4 hour class isnt enough time to get the proper training and also the class instructor should be the one to say if you can have the fire arm based on your personality. But in that fantasy world that would be great. Point is no matter what there are stupid people. And some have guns, others dont. Plain and simple

[This message has been edited by Rougewarrior (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103270 - 04/25/05 06:17 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I tell people that I sleep armed. Am I paranoid? No. But in my neighborhood, it can take quite some time for EMS to get here, so if something happens, it's going to be the agressor who dies in this situation. Guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns. I don't go carrying a weapon looking for trouble. My home is my sactuary, and I will be safe in my own home. And when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. I will not be left unarmed against someone who is illegally in posession of a firearm when he breaks into my house. Gun control is what needs to be limited. Gun control only makes it harder for law abiding people to get a hold of a weapon.

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#103271 - 04/25/05 10:24 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Used to pack em....back in my "bad old days".
I got rid of them because I was too crazy back then and knew if I did not I would end up killing someone.

I don`t carry weapons of any kind outside my home right now, though I might consider a small knife again.

I can fight very well, and know what it takes to survive on the street...been there done that.

I choose to not carry, though I do plan on learning some arnis type disarment techniques. Possibly some of the short blade stuff that goes with it as well.

I may pay the price if I come up against a gun, but hey....I played that game for a long time so I will take my chances, I feel safer without it to tell you the truth. Its my way of keeping at least one gun off the streets, and I believe in setting a good example.

I do own a bow still, and used it for hunting at one time. ( and other less legal activities, I liked the fact that it is silent) No good as a weapon without a lot of practice first though, and it takes about 20 seconds just to string the thing and nock an arrow. With an arrow on the string it is almost as fast as a hand gun, and just as acurrate in my hands. It is a short bow made for tight places, like thick bush.

I keep it in my bedroom next too a heavy kosh, left over from my navy days.

I am also a VERY light sleeper and move very quietly, things I learned from bow hunting. (and from my bad old days)

My home is MY castle, I have caught people their a few times over the years. I don`t call the cops, but so far none of them has ever come back a second time.

It hasn`t happened in a long time. Once about a year ago, but I knew who the kid was and that he was not armed.He did not know I was home until I had him by the throat, pinned against the wall, he made funny sucking sounds. He was very lucky I heard his voice outside and recognised it. He was a former foster child of mine, he is doing pretty good now from what I hear, and staying out of trouble.

[This message has been edited by WildBill (edited 04-25-2005).]

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#103272 - 04/26/05 02:20 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just need to clear something up. Contary to popular belief, firearms are legal in countries like the UK, Australia and New Zealand. They are just controled. To me it makes sense. Think about it this way.

Both a car and a gun are simular in the fact that they can be used to kill be people, either on purpose or accident. Would you want people driving around with no driver`s licence? Damn alot of drivers are unsafe enough as it is. Following the same logic, owning a gun should require a license too. And if you are a law abiding citizen, it shouldn`t be to hard to get one.

In most Commonwelth countries it is pretty easy to own a rifle or shotgun (and as another poster pointed out, a good ol` 12-gadge is all you need to defend your property and your family). You just need to get a licence to learn how to handle them safely and check you aren`t a complete pycho. If you have a criminal record or aren`t a citizen of the country (making it very hard for terrorists) forget about it. Handguns are more difficult but still possible if you join a pistol club (sport). However you CANNOT carry guns around in public, common sense if you ask me. Also assualt weapons are completly banned except for the military and some law enforcement branches which again, is common sense.

Some people seem to think gun control means banning all firearms. Its just not the case. Like owning a car, its just a method of making sure only law abiding citzens own such a dangerous tool and they know how to safely handle them.

I know many gun owners are sane, law abiding people, some of my friends own guns. But also realize that those of us you like the idea of gun control aren`t all anti-gun Nazi`s.

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#103273 - 04/26/05 02:46 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]There are people who responsibly own firearms and value their right to their possession. They take issue with people who want to disarm them for their "own good".[/QUOTE]

No matter,assault rifle or not.

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#103274 - 04/26/05 04:42 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Fact is, that i would not get in a car with a stanger because i dont know them. I dont trust them with my life.
And I dont trust you (gunowner) with my life. In the the US people talk about the right to own handguns.
I was walking down santa monica bay and a cop told me to put out my cigarrette because it was no smoking area (in the open air). Non-smokers claim it is their right not to have people breathing smoke in their face.
I have the right not to have gun wielding neighbours.
How should I know, if in a heated arguement about screwing my neighbours wife, he doesnt take the gun that he uses to "protect himself" to kill me!
How many crimes of passion have there been, and how is it to pull the trigger.
And yes people who use it for protection are paranoid!!
1. if it is a professional thief, you will not hear him come in or out, trust me been there!
2. If it is an amature then he is not going to be on his own, and ht esituation would possibly turn into a gun fight, since its so easy to get guns then the thief would definetely have one.
3. When was the last time you got robbed?
4. Do you have children to protect?
5. Do you carry the gun with you in case you get mugged?

The chance of something happening to you at your own home is so slim that the pros for banning guns, outweight the cons.

You may feel safer with a gun, but you are not!

If it makes you FEEL safer that is a different story. Society should not have increased risk of gun crime because it makes some people FEEL safer.

Cops should carry guns, because they deal with criminals.
YOU DONT!!

In all other threads, when asked what woudl you do if....
most logical and educated people answer run away as a first option and confront second.
Why does the story change if you have a gun on you?
Because you are not the one in danger?
The point is to avoid confrontations because he have learnt something from MA.
The easy way out, that is what a gun is.

But i feel safer knowing my kids and other kids are going to a school were I know that the other kids dont have access to guns and are not going to come in and shoot up the whole school, even if that means me (in the one in a million chance) getting killed by some dude on the street. Honestly, sometimes what is right for society is not always right for the individual.

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#103275 - 04/26/05 05:24 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
Fact is, that i would not get in a car with a stanger because i dont know them. I dont trust them with my life.[/QUOTE]
That's a good decision.
[QUOTE]And I dont trust you (gunowner) with my life. In the the US people talk about the right to own handguns.[/QUOTE]
The right we deserve,thanks.

[QUOTE]I was walking down santa monica bay and a cop told me to put out my cigarrette because it was no smoking area (in the open air). Non-smokers claim it is their right not to have people breathing smoke in their face.[/QUOTE]
It's called the law,deal with it.
[QUOTE]I have the right not to have gun wielding neighbours.[/QUOTE] No,you don't.

[QUOTE]How should I know, if in a heated arguement about screwing my neighbours wife, he doesnt take the gun that he uses to "protect himself" to kill me!
How many crimes of passion have there been, and how is it to pull the trigger.[/QUOTE] Don't screw his wife and you won't have to worry about it.Who's paranoid??
[QUOTE]And yes people who use it for protection are paranoid!![/QUOTE]80,000,000 paranoid people! Must be an epidemic!!
[QUOTE]1. if it is a professional thief, you will not hear him come in or out, trust me been there!
2. If it is an amature then he is not going to be on his own, and ht esituation would possibly turn into a gun fight, since its so easy to get guns then the thief would definetely have one.[/QUOTE] Yet,you don't want your law abiding neighbor to have one?
[QUOTE]3. When was the last time you got robbed?
4. Do you have children to protect?
5. Do you carry the gun with you in case you get mugged?[/QUOTE]
3. never
4. yes
5. no

[QUOTE]The chance of something happening to you at your own home is so slim that the pros for banning guns, outweight the cons.[/QUOTE] Your pros and your cons!

[QUOTE]You may feel safer with a gun, but you are not!

If it makes you FEEL safer that is a different story. Society should not have increased risk of gun crime because it makes some people FEEL safer.[/QUOTE] So,I'm safer without a gun while the robber who has no regard for the law has one???

[QUOTE]Cops should carry guns, because they deal with criminals.
YOU DONT!![/QUOTE] Cops do carry guns last time I checked.

[QUOTE]In all other threads, when asked what woudl you do if....
most logical and educated people answer run away as a first option and confront second.
Why does the story change if you have a gun on you?
Because you are not the one in danger?
The point is to avoid confrontations because he have learnt something from MA.
The easy way out, that is what a gun is.[/QUOTE] I can't run while inside my house and leave my family there..??

[QUOTE]But i feel safer knowing my kids and other kids are going to a school were I know that the other kids dont have access to guns and are not going to come in and shoot up the whole school, even if that means me (in the one in a million chance) getting killed by some dude on the street. Honestly, sometimes what is right for society is not always right for the individual.

[/QUOTE]

Look, the law is the law and as long as it says I can have guns I will exercise that right. YOU don't have to if you don't want,but you have no right dictating what is best for me or society. Who's paranoid??? U R [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by SANCHIN31 (edited 04-26-2005).]

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#103276 - 04/26/05 05:35 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dont be so sanctimonious.
I am not dictating, i have no authority over you.
You can do whatever you want.
I am saying that they should change the law.
You said that that is the law and that i should deal with it, when i said about the smoking, then you would have to deal with it to if they changed the law.
Or would all the US militia go gun ho trigger happy?

"So,I'm safer without a gun while the robber who has no regard for the law has one???"

Didnt you say two lines before that you have never been robbed?
Thats my point! You have never been robbed and yet you have the fear that maybe one day.....
Yeah well, as happened two days ago, maybe the train will derail and kill you. But that does not mean I am going to be living in fear of it happening.
And I sure as hell not going to be endagering other peoples life to exercise my right to be paranoid.
I may be paranoid about my neighbour owning a gun, but I am not harming anyone with my paranoia, gunowners are.
You can say what you like, but society is better off without guns.

We are obviously dont agree on this, and its obvious that very few people share my opinion, on how harmful guns are.
Its a shame.

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#103277 - 04/26/05 05:43 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Who is paranoid, the guy who is scared of lax laws allowing people he has never met before to carry guns, or the person who carries a gun thinking he is going to get robbed? Maybe both of us. But you are, definetely!

I can guarantee you that if your children (knock on wood) were at that school that got shot up, you would be singing a different tune.

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#103278 - 04/26/05 06:07 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You are making alot of ignorant statements! You don't know why I have a gun,you assume it's because of robbers. You assume what I'd do if my kids were in those schools. How many people have been killed by law abiding CCW people?
Like I've said before.....huh.....We don't need new laws,we need the old ones enforced stricter.

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#103279 - 04/26/05 06:14 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
Who is paranoid, the guy who is scared of lax laws allowing people he has never met before to carry guns, or the person who carries a gun thinking he is going to get robbed? Maybe both of us. But you are, definetely!

I can guarantee you that if your children (knock on wood) were at that school that got shot up, you would be singing a different tune.
[/QUOTE]

You've probably never met most police officers or military personnel before, but they are well armed and well trained with firearms. Most gun related violence in America is linked to the drug trade.

Secondly, that would be emotive and stupid. Lott's work is very hard to dispute.

At best there is a net benefit. At worst the position of lax gun laws is neutral.

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#103280 - 04/26/05 06:29 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gotta go with Sanchin on this one.

Carrying a gun is not a reason not to disengage from a confrontation. In fact, it is a great responsibility that gun owners carry that provides a very real consequence should they act recklessly. Every responsible gun owner I know understands this.

Most anti gun people I know, don't.

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#103281 - 04/26/05 06:32 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sanchin. If you dont own a gun for protection then why are you?
Its either hunting or protection, and a handgun is not for hunting!
Tried, its really innacurate!
And anyway I was not talking about you , or an ex-cop, or a jewlery shop owner who is a very likely target.

I am not saying that you are a danger because you have a gun. I am pretty sure that you are not. But I cant say that for everyone.
People attach personal safety to whatever makes them feel better.
Is it that weird that I feel better knowing that I live in acountry where the majority of people do not own a handgun?

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#103282 - 04/26/05 08:22 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just to make my position on the issue clear, I have absolutly no problem if my neighbour owns firearms IF

1) they are sane
2) they have a license and are regestered with the cops
3) the firearms are under lock and key
4) the firearms don't leave the house except for hunting trips and sporting events.

Is that so unreasonable? I'm not in favour of disarming people at all. Just some common sense on keeping such dangerous weapons.

Things seem so polarised and thats bad. What even happened to the sane middle?

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#103283 - 04/26/05 09:35 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JayJay:
Just to make my position on the issue clear, I have absolutly no problem if my neighbour owns firearms IF

1) they are sane
2) they have a license and are regestered with the cops
3) the firearms are under lock and key
4) the firearms don't leave the house except for hunting trips and sporting events.

Things seem so polarised and thats bad. What even happened to the sane middle?
[/QUOTE]

If my neighbour fulfilled all of the above criteria, i would have no problem with it either.
The trouble is that a lot of people do not!
If you can get a tech9 from wallmart (i think that is what someone said) its not quite the same as registering, keeping it under lock and key where kids cannot get to, and having a psycological examination!

I dont have a problem with people owning anything, if the above rules are enforced properly. In some countries they are not.

You cannot trust everyone to own a gun and use it responsibly.

I am not saying that the solution is to ban guns, the solution is to make stricter and better enforced regulations on who and how you own a gun.

But..... they dont, do they?

If a child gets warned about touching something he shouldnt, and the child just wont learn, it gets taken away from him.
The same with adults. Those people who have a violent history, who are even minutely unstable, who, who, who, they should not be allowed to cary guns.
Unfortunately, if the teacher doesnt know who did it, the whole class needs to get punished just to make sure.

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#103284 - 04/26/05 10:59 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am not anti-gun. I spent several of the best years of my life in a very good unit of the Israeli military, and then I spent a few other good years doing what seems to be called "security contractor" work, and a little while as a bady guard. I imagine that I am as comfortable with a fire arm as anybody on this forum, and I would imagine that I have had the opportunity to see a firearm in action, from both ends, as much as anybody here.

I agree with the posters from New Zeeland - to own and operate a firewarm you should be checked out thouraly and be known to be sane and to keep your skills up. you should have a good safe at home (verified by the government) and keep track of both your weapon and your ammo. you should be allowed a very limited number of firearms, and a very limited amount of ammo, aside from what you use at a legal range. that is my feeling.

I believe

1. most people who own firearms in american don't know how to use them well enough. even if you think you do, you don't. I think a manditory 8 week, 40 hour a week firearm course would make sense, or at least 4 weekends.

2. people think that they have their firearms safe, but they don't. in israel, if your gun is stolen, you are responsible for any crimes commited with that gun in the future. makes sense to me. if a child plays with your firearm and is killed, that should be homicide.

3. people get crazy weapons, like the dessert eagle and powerful assult rifles. this leads me to beleive that they are doing it for reasons of fantasy, and not good logical reasons. you want to defend your house, in all probability the best weapon will be a 20 gauge with no. 7 shot, and or a featherwieght 38. why do you need a .45 with an extended clip?

4. all of these people getting high performance ammo and then living in apartments scares me. you can put a good rifle round through 3 apartments. you can easily put a high performance 9 mm round through 3 or 4 walls. you have no idea what is going on on the other side....

5. I have a few night sticks and a few large canisters of CS gas pepper spray mix in my house. if anybody comes in, I am going to fill up the house with gas, and get out. if they want to take what they can in the cloudy house, they should feel free. I do not want to kill them, I just want then out of my way when I get my famly out. nobody has to get hurt.

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#103285 - 04/26/05 11:19 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Globe

I shoot on a rifle team, and sad to say your correct--too many people own guns without spending the time needed to know what the heck they doing with them.

I see people coming into the range all the time with a brand new gun--and they usually quit after they find out how much practice it takes to shoot with any degree of precision--but they DON'T get rid of the gun.

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#103286 - 04/26/05 11:26 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Globe and CTX

BINGO!

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#103287 - 04/26/05 11:34 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Globetrotter and CXT,
You are both right. First, for those who are of good character and own guns and know how to use them and keep them safely, great no problem with me.

My father is a Vietnam vet and was a farmer and a hunter before a military career. Thus, I have seen guns and always knew they were around. And I have owned guns and sold them when I moved to an apartment...same reason as described above by Globetrotter. Bullets easily go through walls.

I took shooting classes and went to the range often enough (expensive hobby though), but even after getting rid of my guns, I still believe one cannot disabuse oneself of the utility of a weapon if it is legal and you feel the need for protection of your home.

-B

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#103288 - 04/26/05 11:47 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, some people here have a problem with just ANYBODY owning a gun.

First off, convicted felons who still have a record cannot legally purchase a gun, of any kind. They still get them.

Second off, not just "any psycho" can get a gun. Anyone who has been fully 5150d in this country (taken before a MH administrative justice" cannot legallay purchase a gun. Yet somehow many of them still get a hold of a firearm.

Now to the main point. The Second Amendment to the US Constitution reads "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED." It is my constitutional right to own a firearm, and it is one that I will excercise, with responsibility, as I see fit. That does not mean I find the next guy I don't like and shoot him, that means that for my own defense, and the defense of my home and family, I will, when I can afford to, keep a firearm in my home for the afforementioned purpose.

I don't even think registering handguns is that great of an idea, as it just lets people who have no need to know that I have a weapon. They know enough when my name is ran through a background check.

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#103289 - 04/26/05 11:55 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


you are right, you have the right to serve in a well regulated militia. go down to the mall and see the nice guy in uniform, he will sign you up to a nice organization that will teach you to use a firearm, and pay you, as well.

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#103290 - 04/26/05 12:01 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Bushi

A-Great, glad that you take the steps you feel are needed to protect yourself and your family.
All I am saying is that if you own a gun you should (not "you" specifcally-just "you in general) should take the time to get proper training in its use--which you personally may well have.

Really don't think its so much to ask that people with guns should get the proper training in their use.

B-I personlly have no problem with registration of firearms.
As far as I am concerned a crimnal caught with an UN-REG firearm should get a automatic jail sentence (on top of what ever else they got caught for)
Esp since criminals should not HAVE guns.
They should also fine/jail the guy that sold it to him.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-26-2005).]

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#103291 - 04/26/05 12:12 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oops, forgot to define "militia". Today, the closest we get to a "militia" is the state by state "National Guard". Yes, that is a good place for someone to get proper training, and yes you even get paid as well. Quite decently if you end up in "hostile" territory. However, a militia is similar to the draft, but most of the men in a militia bring their own weapons, including guns. Militia was the common practice in the US up until the time of WWI. It fell out of favor as other nations were using large professional armies that were better trained and equipped. However, the idea of militia is a contributor, I'm sure, to the fact that the US hasn't fought a true war on its home soil since the early 1900s. Every other nation we fought with just didn't do so well in "frontier" with all the militia boys who owned a gun ready to defend it.

The rules have changed slightly, but if suddenly the US was faced with invasion of its home soil, the idea of "militia" would find new life, and there would be 80,000,000 people ready to defend their country and freedoms.

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#103292 - 04/26/05 12:16 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont care about your constitution.
In Saudi Arabia it is written in their version of your constitution that if your wife is caught cheating you have the right to kill her be public stoning!

Just because someone says it, it dont make it right.
I am not saying the constitution is not important, and that it doesnt protect law abiding citizens, but it was written by MEN, just like you and me.
Also it was written in a period when lawlessness was widespread.
Stop hiding behind your constitution and formulate an argument please!

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#103293 - 04/26/05 12:25 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am formulating an arguement. It is written in our constitution that I have a right. It is also written in our constitution that there is a procedure for amending the constitution. The constitution has not been amended, so until that time, I have the right to keep and bear arms. Should that time ever come, I'll grumble a little, and sell my guns, and get on with my life. But I have a constitutional right, and the states that are most in favor of that right have less problems with break-ins and in home shootings than more restricting states. The lawful posession of a weapon is a proven deterrant to some crimes. I'm not going to quote statistics as I know they've been quoted in other threads on this forum.

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#103294 - 04/26/05 12:58 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
I think the problem will always be here.

There are people who responsibly own firearms and value their right to their possession. They take issue with people who want to disarm them for their "own good".

There are people who own or acquire firearms who are less than committed to their personal resonsibilities.

There are criminals who clearly should not have access to firearms for any reason.

And there are people who do not own firearms and see them as unnecessary and unreasonably dangerous. They do not trust gun owners and feel that armed citizens are paranoid fanatics who will not responsibly maintain their weapons.

It boils down to weighing the risk and playing the numbers. Everyone has stats that can support their opinion.
[/QUOTE]

This is the best arguement of the whole thread.
Older laws need to be enforced better, and banning guns will do absolutely nothing. It doesn't get rid of the problem, it changes it. Criminals with knives are just as dangerous.
A handgun for protection is good and dandy, no problems there, as long as he/she is well educated on the laws and proper uses of his/her weapon.
Any sort of power weapon, ie, machine guns, super HVAP bullets, or whatever should not be held by anyone but the military.
I don't think that having gun controls will stop criminals from getting their weapons. Since they are criminals, they have their "connections" to seedy gun dealers who don't work in accordance to the laws anyways, so banning guns or super strict gun control won't eliminate the problem.

Stricter punishments for improper gun use would help though, like owning an unregistered gun is an auto jail sentence, that might deterr some criminals (of the lesser variety) from using guns.

But there will always be the problem of criminals with weapons they shouldn't have, it has existed for as long as we have lived in organized societies and cities, and it won't go away.

Fact is, if a criminal wants a gun, he isn't going to go through gov't red tape to get one, so having laws that ban guns aren't solving anything. But having strict gov't control on who can LEGALLY obtain a gun, and only certain types of firearms, will reduce the chances of accidents, psychos, and others from legally obtaining weapons.

As side info, I am pro-gun for respectable citizens, except hand cannons that fire 100 rounds a minute, I don't see the need for something that powerful for "home defense". I do not own a gun, nor have I ever had experience with a gun related crime.

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#103295 - 04/26/05 05:00 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Its either hunting or protection, and a handgun is not for hunting![/QUOTE]

ALOT of ignorant statements being made still! You only need a 4 inch barrel to hunt legally,lots of people do it and are good at it.
[QUOTE]You cannot trust everyone to own a gun and use it responsibly.[/QUOTE]
Or a knife,car,etc...
[QUOTE]3. people get crazy weapons, like the dessert eagle and powerful assult rifles. this leads me to beleive that they are doing it for reasons of fantasy, and not good logical reasons. you want to defend your house, in all probability the best weapon will be a 20 gauge with no. 7 shot, and or a featherwieght 38. why do you need a .45 with an extended clip?[/QUOTE]
Desert eagle? Which one? Lots of calibers for desert eagles,mine is 40cal. w/10rd clip. Is that too powerful?20guage 7 shot is bird shot wouldn't huet a big guy. Do you know anything about weapons or ammo? Apparently not.
[QUOTE]I dont care about your constitution.[/QUOTE]
I don't care for your ignorant statements.You don't even live here,so what are you going on about?
Some of you don't know weapons,ammo,statistics,and don't care about our constitution which has made our country the best in the world.
I've got an idea,stay out of our country if you don't like it!
As for me and millions of others we will excercise our right to keep and bear arms within the law for protection,hunting,collection,target practice,whatever. Thankyou.

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#103296 - 04/26/05 05:03 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sanchin,

Yes. Indeed. Exactly!

-B

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#103297 - 04/26/05 05:08 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


P.S.

Sorry for the double post..."Best Country" in the world. This is subjective, I like to think so....But I recognize that there are lot of others out there who have love their country just as much.

-B

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#103298 - 04/26/05 05:24 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well we ARE the only remaining super power in the world...

It is primarily subjective, but the U.S. excells at many things, making it "#1" in those categories. So in a sense we are the best. Loyalty to one's country doesn't necessarily make your country the best either.

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#103299 - 04/26/05 05:27 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


UofM,

Yes, you are right. But Love and Loyalty are separate issues as well. Here's to everyone who cares about their country...

-B

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#103300 - 04/26/05 09:17 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
I believe in responsible gun ownership.
I agree, private citizens probably have no valid reason for owning a fully automatic assault rifle.

I also know that the state of Texas passed a concealed carry law-our violent crime rate dropped 36%.

My father was a hunter and then a marine. We always had firearms in the house. None of us, our friends or our schoolmates were killed. I learned to shoot with a single action .22 revolver when I was 8 years old. I learned to respect a firearm, I learned it was not a toy, I learned basic gun safety.

For the past 20+ years or so, children are not taught respect for anything.
They are not taught this in school or at home.
They do learn that there are no consequences for their actions and that their precious little ego and feelings are far more important than anything else.

They then go off and kill people, instead of putting the blame where it belongs we blame an inanimate object.
Until people wake up and begin taking responsibilty for themselves, their actions and their children-we are doomed.

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#103301 - 04/26/05 09:48 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First off, I feel a little guilty for not saying this often enough:

GOD BLESS THE USA

Now, on to the matter at hand.

This is the best country/nation/political whatever in the world to live in. That is just my opinion, my honest opinion. I'm not saying that because someone lives in another country, they are less than me. I believe I live in the greatest, best, most awesome nation because of all the freedoms I posess.

The first amendment to our constitution covers several vital freedoms, including freedom of speech, expression, religion, the press, and the right to peaceably assemble. No law or statute can prevent me or anyone else in this land from doing any of those things. The next is the right to keep and bear arms. This guarantees that I can defend my rights, from any threat to them, foriegn or domestic, even if domestic is a traitorous politician. I have guaranteed legal rights regarding if I am charged with a crime. I am guarenteed legal representation in proceedings. I am guaranteed due process of law. No bureaucrat or politician can just order me locked up just becuase. I have to be given a preliminary hearing within a set period of time. I have the right to a speedy and public jury trial. The only limitation put on that is limiting the amount of cameras and recording equipment in the courtroom. I have the right to privacy, and am protected against unlawful search and seizure, in my person home and effects. No legal authority can enter my home, or invade my life without a properly authorized search warrant.

The only exception made to any of this is the "Patriot Act", which only applies to terrorism, and since I'm not a terrorist, I'm not worried.

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#103302 - 04/26/05 11:23 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'll second that. God Bless the U.S.A.!!!

I grew up around guns.When I was in jr.high my dad got me a .22 an a 20guage.I was taught responsibility and gun safety.I can tell you just about anything you want to know about guns.One thing I do know is it's not the objects fault for it's abuses.
My uncle collects guns,he has some worth over 10grand.He has several hundred of working and non-working machine guns. No one in my family has been hurt as a result of all our guns,but my grandpa and my dad have used them in self defense without firing a shot.God Bless the U.S.A.!!!

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#103303 - 04/27/05 01:17 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Am I allowed to third that?

God bless U.S.A.!

But Michigan weather still stinks, lol. New phrase: April snow brings May showers!

MAGr:

I find your comment about our constitution HIGHLY offensive, and I'm being REALLY polite. I don't know how old you are, but I'm sure you would find it very offensive if I sneered at your country and debased your country with rude commentary. So please refrain from making inappropriate comments towards something many people hold in very high esteem, as many, including me, value the Constitution of the United States of America as the fundamental document that gives the American people more freedoms than any other country in the world.

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#103304 - 04/27/05 05:10 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by UofM Shorin Ryu:
MAGr:

I find your comment about our constitution HIGHLY offensive, and I'm being REALLY polite.
[/QUOTE]

I did not mean to offend. My point is that this is not a discussion about the different gun laws in each country, but about their use in self defence.
In this context i dont care about the constitution, yours or mine, because its not what is under discussion. My point is that you cannot say, the law allows me to do so I should do it. I am not talking about what the law lets you do, I am asking what you think should be done.

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#103305 - 04/27/05 05:24 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


What I think should be done is what the laws allow if that's my decision.

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#103306 - 04/27/05 05:48 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by UofM Shorin Ryu:
This is the best arguement of the whole thread.
Older laws need to be enforced better, and banning guns will do absolutely nothing. It doesn't get rid of the problem, it changes it. Criminals with knives are just as dangerous.
A handgun for protection is good and dandy, no problems there, as long as he/she is well educated on the laws and proper uses of his/her weapon.
Any sort of power weapon, ie, machine guns, super HVAP bullets, or whatever should not be held by anyone but the military.
I don't think that having gun controls will stop criminals from getting their weapons. Since they are criminals, they have their "connections" to seedy gun dealers who don't work in accordance to the laws anyways, so banning guns or super strict gun control won't eliminate the problem.

Stricter punishments for improper gun use would help though, like owning an unregistered gun is an auto jail sentence, that might deterr some criminals (of the lesser variety) from using guns.

But there will always be the problem of criminals with weapons they shouldn't have, it has existed for as long as we have lived in organized societies and cities, and it won't go away.

Fact is, if a criminal wants a gun, he isn't going to go through gov't red tape to get one, so having laws that ban guns aren't solving anything. But having strict gov't control on who can LEGALLY obtain a gun, and only certain types of firearms, will reduce the chances of accidents, psychos, and others from legally obtaining weapons.

As side info, I am pro-gun for respectable citizens, except hand cannons that fire 100 rounds a minute, I don't see the need for something that powerful for "home defense". I do not own a gun, nor have I ever had experience with a gun related crime.
[/QUOTE]

I agree completly. Though I am still in favour of at least trying to control them. Guns are not just used for defense, for many they are part of enjoying the great outdoors or (if a farmer getting rid of pesky rabbits) a nessesary tool. To ban all firearms is absurd. This is the kind of issue you can't look at black and white IMO. There is too many variables.

I also agree knifes are just as dangerous. But given their uses (more than guns) controling them is next to impossible.

ps. Being proud of your homeland is a good think IMO. I love my country, and the freedoms it has afforded me in my life, too (though I'm not living there now. I'm homesick [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]). We may disagree sometimes but free speech allows us to. Democracy rocks! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-27-2005).]

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#103307 - 04/27/05 07:40 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think that the US is the best country in the world. I had options as to where I would raise my family, I have lived in 5 countries, and I chose the US.

that said, I think that the issue of too many guns is one of the biggest problems we have in the US. I find (no offense meant to any gun collectors) the idea of collecting guns strange. I believe that you should ahve the right to keep and bear arms, but that right brings with it responsibilities, and that a certain ammount of training and annual practice, as well as specific storage guidelines should be required for keeping firearms.

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#103308 - 04/27/05 07:53 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]"it's called the law, deal with it."

"What I think should be done is what the laws allow if that's my decision."

"God bless U.S.A"

[/QUOTE]

The three scariest statements I have seen on this board in my time here.

Lets tackle the first two. Because of thinking like this some of the most atrocious acts in the history of man have occured. We are not debating law here! In fact for the most part the current law is a tiny part of this argument. Hardly worth a footnote.

Law in no way, shape or form if EVER a good argument when debating moral issues. For obvious reasons it would seem. Slavery was a law. Women not having the right to vote was a law. There are many unjust or immoral laws. It is arrogant to think that the current state of the government is the perfect one. Im sure many people thought that 30 years ago, 60 years ago etc...

You see why those first two quotes make me uneasy?

The third one? I don't feel I can get into this on this board for fear of shutting down this thread/causing strife between members. Besides its more of a personal issue.

If anyone does want to debate this e-mail me and we can talk about it sepperately.

Rawr.. I've gotten myself in quite the tizzy. Will go for a walk to cool off.

Peace.

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#103309 - 04/27/05 07:59 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Where have I been the last couple of days? lol. I am from Ohio, USA, so some people won't agree with my view on gun control. Here in Ohio, we do have a conceal and carry law. We also have a Walmart. You can not buy a Tech9, also known as an automatic 9mm handgun, here at walmart. You can get ammunition for any 9mm weapon here. With that being cleared up... onto my conceal and carry ideals.

I believe it is a good deterrent to crimes such as theft and robbery. I don't have any articles or statistics to support my belief, but think of it this way. You are a robber, and you go into a Walmart to rob the place. Would you re-think your plan knowing that there is a possibility that the 30 people waiting in line to purchase goods are potentially carrying some form of firearm? I know I would, but maybe I am just more intelligent than the thieves here in the States. According to our laws, citizens have the right to bear arms, and I agree. Just like I don't agree with what Michael Moore says, I would defend to death that he has the right to say what he does, as it is also protected by our laws, freedom of speech. Should any regular citizen with no ties to the military, law enforcement, or gun manufacturer be allowed to have access to military grade weaponry(i.e. m16, m4, ak47, m60, any variation therein)? No. Should citizens have to have a waiting period before being able to purchase a gun? Yes. Do I carry a weapon with me? No, not old enough. Will I? Probably not. Do I like having the freedom to do so? Just like every liberal trying to ban guns love thier freedom, so do I.

If someone wants to kill you, they are going to do try, regardless of if they have a gun or not. Terrorists had no problems killing thousands in 9-11, and not a single firearm was used.

I agree with Sanchin, stricter control on old laws, not new ones to take thier place.

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#103310 - 04/27/05 08:14 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let me give you a hypothetical scenario.
You are a 17 year old drug addict, and you need to get some cash.
There is a job oppening cleaning dishes in a restaurant, and there is also a wall mart selling guns so you can go rob a liquer store.
The gun option is there for the drug addict. He would think about it more however if the option was a knife rather than a gun.

"Do I carry a weapon with me? No, not old enough. Will I? Probably not. Do I like having the freedom to do so? Just like every liberal trying to ban guns love thier freedom, so do I."

The problem is that you answered "PROBABLY not", and a lot of people would answer probably yes.
I am all for people exercising their freedoms, but freedom is only freedom if it does not affect other people's freedoms. Like I said, men in the middle east like the freedom to beat their wives.
That is a freedom that should not be allowed.
I am not saying that people should not be allowed to go hunting, or protect themselves. Buy a tazer like another thread mentioned. Why do you have to own something that can kill so easily and so impersonally?
Why do you feel the need to have a deadly weapon in your house to supposedly protect your family, since you have never been robbed. Ok, it MIGHT happen. But it will probably not happen, and people are getting killed left right and centre with guns. Not by thieves, who come into your house, but on the street. And if you dont intend on carrying a gun with you on the street where you are most likely to be attacked, then why own one at all? In case you get robbed?
So you are putting thousands of people's lives at risk so that you can exercise your right to own a gun, so that you FEEL safer. When in actual fact you are not any safer than i am.

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#103311 - 04/27/05 08:18 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't think a single person here has advocated banning guns..(Except maybe automatic weapons)

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#103312 - 04/27/05 08:24 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bullfrog,

LOL. I didn't mean to scare you. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#103313 - 04/27/05 08:24 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


c'mon people...it's one thing to love and respect your country, but you guys are making it sound like you drank way too much tricolor cool-aid.

There is a right to bear arms in the US. period. until that gets updated to something more specific, (at the time, they were probably thinking 1 round per minute gunpowdered muskets as protection in very different circumstances), it will remain as law. for better or for worse. It won't change anytime soon for the similar reasons of why we are still using record amounts of gasoline/oil, refuse a public metric system, and don't invest more in children's education. Bu$iness, stuborness, and short-term thinking respectfully. As a country and as a world for that matter, we seem to have our priorities messed up. Peace is the long-term answer, people...not artificial peace thru mutually assurred deterrence. I know I'm idealistic and sound hippyish...but it's my right. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
{takes off sandles and munches on granola}

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#103314 - 04/27/05 08:25 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thats ok, I get over scares quite quickly [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

*does a little dance to lightnen the mood*

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#103315 - 04/27/05 09:07 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
The problem is that you answered "PROBABLY not", and a lot of people would answer probably yes.[/QUOTE]
But I like having the freedom to choose if I want to, just like everyone else should be allowed.
[QUOTE]
That is a freedom that should not be allowed.
I am not saying that people should not be allowed to go hunting, or protect themselves. Buy a tazer like another thread mentioned. Why do you have to own something that can kill so easily and so impersonally?
Why do you feel the need to have a deadly weapon in your house to supposedly protect your family, since you have never been robbed. Ok, it MIGHT happen. But it will probably not happen, and people are getting killed left right and centre with guns. Not by thieves, who come into your house, but on the street. And if you dont intend on carrying a gun with you on the street where you are most likely to be attacked, then why own one at all?[/QUOTE]
Sifu once told me, "Best defense, is to not bet there." I do not wandering the streets so I have no need to carry one wherever I go. Why I own a gun, because I am a hunter. I don't own it in case I get robbed, which I admit is a reason alot of people give. However, if that thief is stupid enough to come in my house, he/she had better be prepared to vacate my property.
[QUOTE]
So you are putting thousands of people's lives at risk so that you can exercise your right to own a gun, so that you FEEL safer. When in actual fact you are not any safer than i am.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how me owning a firearm puts thousands of people lives at risk... maybe my driving [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG], but certainly not my firearm. You are right about one thing. I am not any safer than you. Sanchin is not any safer than I, and any government offical is not safer than Sanchin. We can all die at the drop of a hat, that was proven on 9-11. Firearms are a tool, just like any weapon in martial arts. It can be used to protect, or it can be used for harm.

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#103316 - 04/27/05 09:32 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I go hunting too.
And i thoroughly enjoy it.
But, my rifle is kept in a locked cuboard and is not loaded.
Quite useless for self defence really!

Your gun doesnt put thousands of lives in danger, but the collective existence has put many lives in danger.
Those kids who shot up columbine and the other schools (i forget their names) would not have been able, should not have been able to gt a hold of those guns.

If i had a kid who was over 16 and mature i might let them go hunting with me, but i certainly would not give them the key to the cuboard with the rifle.

Adults also have different opinions on the matter. I personally could not take away a life, even if it is a criminal.
Make no mistake, if my life is in danger, or my family's then I would not even bat an eyelid, and would kill him no problem. But I would not shoot a thief who came into my house even if i had a loaded gun with me, unless he threatened my life.
There are very few cases that i have heard of that the thief even is carrying a gun, let alone use it.
Thieves are there to steal not kill. If they kill somone it just makes it harder for them to get away! They will not kill you unless they have to, like if you are holding a gun against one of them. If you just told them to take what they want and to leave, that would give you more chances of survival than if you put a gun in their face.
Unless of course you are planning on shooting them without even checking.
This guy shot two 15 yearolds who came into his house to steal his tv. Okay they were commiting a crime but did they deserve to die?
My friend's guns which were stolen, are probably being used for illegal purposes right now, maybe even used to kill someone.
Liek the tree huggin hippy (j-k) said before, peace through mutual deterrence is not the answer.

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#103317 - 04/27/05 09:45 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
MAGr

You had me until you mentioned that a thief is there to steal--not kill.

Problam I have with that is how are you supposed to KNOW why someone has broken. into your home.

Are they there to lift your silver and run?

Or are they pulling a "home invasion" where they are planning on raping your wife and daughter, then tortureing you to make you give up the locations of your valuables then shooting all three of you in the head--then driving off in you car?

Or are they some crack head that came to steal but when he finds you home panics and kills your whole family?

Or maybe they are here to kidnap your daughter.

I did not make up any of these examples--they have all happened.

How are you supposed know the INTENT of the guy that just broke into your home--what are you a mind reader?

If was just me in the house--I would probably take a chance--but with my wife or kids--no way.

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#103318 - 04/27/05 09:46 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the problem with having firearms out there is not that the skilled and responsible ones will use them. the problem is how easy it is for them to fall into the hands of those who are too lazy and undisciplined to train and use them safely. it isn't that easy to get over the physcological barrier of beating somebody to death, or stabbing them. if you have a gun around the house, or your family does, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to kill. for what every reason, every year hundreds of people who grew up in houses with firearms, and who feel very safe with firearms, have firearm accidents. they felt just as competent as any body here did in their ability to handle their firearms safely.

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#103319 - 04/27/05 09:55 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The majority of childrens deaths in the home are due to gun accidents "just read this now from a newspaper on the net"

Not from crazy crackheads coming into your house!
What i am saying is that the 1/1000000 risk that a crackhead with a gun comes into your house is too small to justify easy ownership of handguns.
The risks of getting run over, or crashing the train on your way to work, some idiot on the street raping your daughter.
That is more likely, and yet people still justify the ownership of guns.

The amount of people that die every year from guns that are purchased are so much more than the deaths that they prevent.

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#103320 - 04/27/05 10:14 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I keep large canisters of good quality gas in my house. in the event of a break in, the plan is to fill the house up with gas, and get out with my family.

I fail to see a resonable scenario where a firearm would provide me with a more secure result, and I see many scenarios where somebody could get killed by my having a firearm in the house.

it is my belief that many people keep guns, not because they have figured out that they provide them with the best home security for their families, but for emotional reasons - they think guns are cool.

I don't want to get into a gunfight with a criminal. I am not that interested in killing the criminal. I have insurance on my possesions. all I am interested in is keeping my family safe. it makes no sense to guard my family from thieves and yet put something in my house that could cause lethal accidents.

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#103321 - 04/27/05 10:32 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
Let me give you a hypothetical scenario.
You are a 17 year old drug addict, and you need to get some cash.
There is a job oppening cleaning dishes in a restaurant, and there is also a wall mart selling guns so you can go rob a liquer store.
The gun option is there for the drug addict. He would think about it more however if the option was a knife rather than a gun.
[/QUOTE]

If he is a drug addict, and a criminal, then he isn't going to go through the red tape at wall mart to get a gun. You seem to think all the criminals like to shop at wall mart for their ak-47's or that they just ask for one and it's given to them.

I seriously doubt that criminals use the legal means to obtain weapons for illegal purposes. I just doesn't make sense. They use the "black market" or whatever, they don't go to Wall Mart.

Yes, 2 kids got guns way to easily and shot up their school. But how often does that happen? Out of 80,000,000 gun owners, 79,999,998 use them responsibly, but because the 2 who didn't killed people, all guns should be banned everywhere or some crazy strict law comes out making guns next to impossible for even the best law-abiding citizens to obtain?

Plus, this is the number of REGISTERED gun owners. I don't think any criminals, after getting their uzi and ski mask at wall mart, take a trip down to the police station to get it registered.

If you took the number of accidental gun deaths or deaths from crimes using guns, and subtracted that from the 80,000,000 gun owners, you still have a lot of responsible gun owners. I'd guess somewhere in the
90%'s easy.

Stricter gun laws can increase this number, and help reduce accidents, because hey, "knowing is half the battle". Education and proper training will only help.

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#103322 - 04/27/05 10:53 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by UofM Shorin Ryu:

Yes, 2 kids got guns way to easily and shot up their school. But how often does that happen? Out of 80,000,000 gun owners, 79,999,998 use them responsibly, .
[/QUOTE]


It wasnt just once or just two kids. Its happened once too many times recently.
And even onece is enough.
How many times did the 9-11 attack have to happen before they banned metal cutlery on planes?
Its not just 2 out of the whole population, if most childrens deaths at home are from gun accidents, then the number of people using them irresponsibly are way more than you are suggesting.

We have established that no one carries their gun on the street and are therefore vulnerable in the majority of dangerous situations.
We have also established that the likelyhood of someone coming into your home is smaller than the likely hood of someone using the gun irresponsibly.

You said that around you think around ninety percent of people use their guns responsibly (and that is a really high percentage in my opinion).
Do you think that 10% of all gunowners have been robbed?
NO.
So if the number of people robbed and that have had a gun in that situation, is smaller than the amount of accidents that have happened,
THEN......
WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING GUNS?

FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY!

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#103323 - 04/27/05 11:04 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
MAGr

But that was not the example you raised--you said that a thief was there to steal--not kill.

And I am asking how you can possibly know why/the intent of someone that has broken into your home in the dead of night.

Children are ANOTHER issue--a very serious one I grant and one that needs to be discussed.
But they have nothing to do with the statement and example you listed above.

Gotta do this case by case.

For example given the deaths caused by cars--a REALLY high number--should we ban the use of cars?



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-27-2005).]

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#103324 - 04/27/05 11:12 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok,
I agree that you dont know the intent of someone entering your home.
But waht i am saying and i said it before aswell, is that the chance of an accident happening with a gun is bigger than the chance of a invader.

I know you have to take it case case by case, because peoples lives are not just statistics.
And i am sure that there have been situations that the presence of a gun would have benefitted the defender and even saved his life.

But when you are making regulations and laws, you have to deal with statistics.
And if the crimes commited to gun owners whihc were potentially lethal are less the number of accidents that have happened within gunowners, it followes that guns are not of benefit as self defence over all.
Does that make sense?

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#103325 - 04/27/05 11:20 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
Ok,
I agree that you dont know the intent of someone entering your home.
But waht i am saying and i said it before aswell, is that the chance of an accident happening with a gun is bigger than the chance of a invader.

But when you are making regulations and laws, you have to deal with statistics.
And if the crimes commited to gun owners whihc were potentially lethal are less the number of accidents that have happened within gunowners, it followes that guns are not of benefit as self defence over all.
Does that make sense?

[/QUOTE]

If people relied solely on statistics, then we wouldn't be allowed to drive cars right now, because we are at much greater risk to die in a car accident than a gun accident, statistically of course.

Statistically we have a better chance of being abducted by aliens than dying in a plane accident. Does that mean we should prepare for an intergallactic war? Or wear tinfoil while we fly?

Statistics are one piece of info that goes into decision making, just one piece out of many.

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#103326 - 04/27/05 11:25 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


sure cars are dangerous. in order to drive, I needed to prove who I was, I needed to take a written exam and then I needed to take a 4 hohur course and a road test. in addition, I need to display a sticker on my car that says that my car has been checked in the past year, and a plate on my car that says it is registered. and I need almost $4000 in insurance.

I am fine with the same limitations being on firearms.

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#103327 - 04/27/05 11:25 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
There are only 1,500 accidental gun deaths a year in the US, 75% of those are males 14-25(read gang members)
Cars kill 43,000 people a year-when are we going to ban them?


[This message has been edited by nekogami13 V2.0 (edited 04-27-2005).]

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#103328 - 04/27/05 11:36 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
10. Machinery
Deaths per year: 350

We can thank the farmers of America for the inclusion of this particular misfortune as a cause of death. Between corn-huskers and wheat-threshers, is it a wonder? The reason it is last on the list is that there just aren't enough people in farming these days. Ironically, they have all been replaced by machines. Hmm… accident, or deliberate act by wanton machinery? We may never know.


9. Medical & Surgical Complications and Misadventures
Deaths per year: 500

While we are incredibly insensitive people, we did not coin the term "medical misadventure"- the National Safety Council did. How is death by surgeon a "misadventure?" While we're not sure, we suspect that this number refers to elective surgeries that people undertake, such as liposuction. After all, the removal of a brain tumor is not usually considered to be an "adventure."


8. Poisoning by gases
Deaths per year: 700

There's nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning … In this category, you mostly have deaths by carbon monoxide poisoning due to faulty operation of a heating or cooking appliance, or a standing automobile. We assume, however, that the noxious gasses emitted by Uncle Albert qualify too.

7. Firearms
Deaths per year: 1,500
Of the 1500, you're looking at about 75% young males between the age of 14 and 25 (and getting younger every year), who unintentionally shoot themselves or someone else. For more information on the place of guns in society, click over to our pros and cons section.


6. Suffocation
Deaths per year: 3,300

Call this one the "Heimlich" section, as these deaths mostly resulted from blockages of the respiratory system by food or other objects.


5. Fires and burns
Deaths per year: 3,700

This would include deaths resulting from fires, such as smoke inhalation, falling beams, and sitting through Backdraft. Ironic that cancer is number two on the total deaths list, and a by-product of smoking is responsible for one of the top causes of accidental deaths. Are we getting the picture that this is a dangerous pastime? What kind of warnings do we have to put on these boxes, anyway?

4. Drowning
Deaths per year: 4,000

This includes all sorts of drownings in boat accidents and those resulting from swimming, playing in the water, falling in, or even having a bath. The human body is what, 70% water? And we begin our lives in a watery environment, there's lots of oxygen in water… what's the deal? Something for the scientists to work on.


3. Poisoning by solids and liquids
Deaths per year: 8,600

These would be all your commonly recognized poisons, as well as such items as mushrooms, shellfish, drug overdoses, and problems with medicines-which is a wide category, and why it is so high on the list. What they leave out is things like food poisoning or salmonella, which they classify as "disease deaths" and place on another list.


2. Falls
Deaths per year: 14,900

Then we come to the America's Funniest Home Videos category of accidental death, including falls from ladders, down stairs, over curbs, off buses, into manholes, and through plate glass windows.

1. Motor vehicle crashes
Deaths per year: 43,200

The winner, by a ridiculously huge (and ever-increasing) margin is: death by car wreck. Head on collision, sideswipe, single-vehicle smash-up, full car rollover, pedestrian takedown, choking on own carsick vomit, spontaneous combustion-the fun never stops for car owners. Try air travel instead; it's much safer. Do you see it anywhere on this list?

from http://www.soyouwanna.com

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#103329 - 04/27/05 11:53 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by globetrotter:
sure cars are dangerous. in order to drive, I needed to prove who I was, I needed to take a written exam and then I needed to take a 4 hohur course and a road test. in addition, I need to display a sticker on my car that says that my car has been checked in the past year, and a plate on my car that says it is registered. and I need almost $4000 in insurance.

I am fine with the same limitations being on firearms.
[/QUOTE]

this argument is all well and good until you start placing restrictions on it like the guns were. "What if a drunk, whos license is revoked, cancelled his insruance policy, drove home, crashed, and killed three other people, so cars should be banned as well" type mentallity that has happened in this argument for gun control. Guns are tools. Guns are not dangerous. Idiots with guns are. Why punish those of us because of what the idiots do?

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#103330 - 04/27/05 12:24 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


no, I wouldn't say ban guns. what I would say is - what if a guy came home drunk and decided it was a good time to clean his guns? well, if it can be proven he should have his guns taken away from him and he should spend a short stretch in jail. what if a person buys a cheap tin box for his guns, and his guns are stolen and used in a robbery homicide? well, the gun owner should be punished with the same punishment as the guy who pulled the trigger.

what if a gun owner decides that he doesn't feel like going to the range to have the annual test to renew his license? well, we should take his guns away.

how does that sound?

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#103331 - 04/27/05 12:26 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
I never had to prove who I was to get a driver's license.
I just showed up, filled out the form-they took my word for it.
Perhaps it was because I have an honest face.

To get a concealed carry permit, have to provide birth certificate and finger prints-go through a national criminal background check. Also cannot have a history of mental illness, heck any psychopath can get a driver's license.

Driving courses are not mandatory-you merely have to take a driving test. You don't even have to retake it periodicly, unlike a concealed carry license in TX-every 2 years have to retest.

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 V2.0 (edited 04-27-2005).]

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#103332 - 04/27/05 12:30 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by globetrotter:
no, I wouldn't say ban guns. what I would say is - what if a guy came home drunk and decided it was a good time to clean his guns? well, if it can be proven he should have his guns taken away from him and he should spend a short stretch in jail. what if a person buys a cheap tin box for his guns, and his guns are stolen and used in a robbery homicide? well, the gun owner should be punished with the same punishment as the guy who pulled the trigger.

what if a gun owner decides that he doesn't feel like going to the range to have the annual test to renew his license? well, we should take his guns away.

how does that sound?

[/QUOTE]

Substitute "car" for "gun" in the above-
How does that sound to you?

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#103333 - 04/27/05 12:30 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


guns are tools. but people don't collect chain saws like they collect guns.

guns are weapons, they are made to kil people and animals. the best guns are very good tools for killing people. they make it easy for people to kill other people, without understanding all the difficluties and consequenses.

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#103334 - 04/27/05 12:35 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by nekogami13 V2.0:
I never had to prove who I was to get a driver's license.
I just showed up, filled out the form-they took my word for it.
Perhaps it was because I have an honest face.

To get a concealed carry permit, have to provide birth certificate and finger prints-go through a national criminal background check. Also cannot have a history of mental illness, heck any psychopath can get a driver's license.

Driving courses are not mandatory-you merely have to take a driving test. You don't even have to retake it periodicly, unlike a concealed carry license in TX-every 2 years have to retest.

[This message has been edited by nekogami13 V2.0 (edited 04-27-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

in my state (NY) you need 6 points of id to get a license, and you need to take a 4 hour course to take the roud test. if you get tickets, you need to take the course again to renew your license.


I think that the rules for a firearm and a car should be similar - tests, registration, periodic checks, illigal to opearate (in the case of firearms handle) when drunk or intoxicated, require insurance and training. I think that the training required for a firearm should be more extensive. I also think that ammunition should be regulated.

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#103335 - 04/27/05 12:49 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
MAGr

Globe

I would have go with what Globe outlined above.

At the very least.

I am gun onwer and I think guns have gotten way out of control here in the States.

Globe the Swiss are often used as an example of a nation where pretty much everyone has access to a military grade firearms and yet is a very peaceful society--few shootings.

(the Swiss have a very well organized "milita"/Natl Guard system)

What they don't talk about is that the ammo for the weapons is STRICTLY controlled.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-27-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-27-2005).]

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#103336 - 04/27/05 12:55 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ditto israel. it is almost impossible to get a rifle in israel, unless it is your reserve rifle. you can have one pistol. if you want to upgrade, you need to bring in your old one. you can have a shotgun, if you have a hunting license. ammo is very strictly regulated. you are responsible for all crimes commited with your firearm, and you are responsible that your firearm is secure. you need to go to the range every year to renew your license. you need to have several people vouch for you when you get the license, including your army comander. you need to talk to a shrink, and not have a police record.

there are almost no accidental shootings in israel, and not that many family homocides. no home invasions.

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#103337 - 04/27/05 01:37 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by globetrotter:
there are almost no accidental shootings in israel, and not that many family homocides. no home invasions. [/QUOTE]

But there are plenty of suicide bombers, maybe if they had guns... okay okay, that wasn't neccisary. Obviously, Sanchin, Neko, and myself have our views, while globe, and MAGr have theirs. I fail to see how this is going to be resolved any time soon. Is it possible that we can reach an agreement on these grounds:

1) Guns are tools that are not only used for home invasions.
2) Guns are dangerous in the hands of irrational, irresponsible people. (include: drunks, druggies, gang members, mafia, kids, teenagers, dogs, by anyone driving, and by husbands that come home early from work)
3) Everything is dangerous when alcohol is involved.
4) All assault rifles should not be available to the general public.
5) Coxne is a danger to all those around while he is behind the wheel of his truck.
and
6) That this thread has fallen horribly off track, and should be either locked or deleted.

Can that be aggreed upon, or will this relentless debate of scenero, logic, statistics, and opinions continue? I know I am certainly willing to agree to disagree.

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#103338 - 04/27/05 01:46 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by coxne:
But there are plenty of suicide bombers, maybe if they had guns... okay okay, that wasn't neccisary.


actually, in the good old days before terrorists used suicide bombs in israel, there were a hell of a lot of cases of people shooting terrorists dead. and strangly enough, these were people who usually had only one handgun, usually a handgun that would be considered "small" in america, and had been trained at government expense and kept up their license and training and so on.


but aside from that, I think that we can all agree to disagree.

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#103339 - 04/27/05 01:55 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I disagree to agree to disagree, but I agree to agree to what we have disagreed on, provided you disagree to agree to what you have disagreed on.

....And now I'm dizzy...

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#103340 - 04/27/05 02:55 PM Re: Guns as Self defence?
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
at 105 posts, I do believe this has run it's course.

I would like to congratulate everyone on keeping it civil, without resorting to personal attacks and name calling.

Thread will now be locked.

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