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#103315 - 04/27/05 09:07 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
The problem is that you answered "PROBABLY not", and a lot of people would answer probably yes.[/QUOTE]
But I like having the freedom to choose if I want to, just like everyone else should be allowed.
[QUOTE]
That is a freedom that should not be allowed.
I am not saying that people should not be allowed to go hunting, or protect themselves. Buy a tazer like another thread mentioned. Why do you have to own something that can kill so easily and so impersonally?
Why do you feel the need to have a deadly weapon in your house to supposedly protect your family, since you have never been robbed. Ok, it MIGHT happen. But it will probably not happen, and people are getting killed left right and centre with guns. Not by thieves, who come into your house, but on the street. And if you dont intend on carrying a gun with you on the street where you are most likely to be attacked, then why own one at all?[/QUOTE]
Sifu once told me, "Best defense, is to not bet there." I do not wandering the streets so I have no need to carry one wherever I go. Why I own a gun, because I am a hunter. I don't own it in case I get robbed, which I admit is a reason alot of people give. However, if that thief is stupid enough to come in my house, he/she had better be prepared to vacate my property.
[QUOTE]
So you are putting thousands of people's lives at risk so that you can exercise your right to own a gun, so that you FEEL safer. When in actual fact you are not any safer than i am.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how me owning a firearm puts thousands of people lives at risk... maybe my driving [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG], but certainly not my firearm. You are right about one thing. I am not any safer than you. Sanchin is not any safer than I, and any government offical is not safer than Sanchin. We can all die at the drop of a hat, that was proven on 9-11. Firearms are a tool, just like any weapon in martial arts. It can be used to protect, or it can be used for harm.

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#103316 - 04/27/05 09:32 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I go hunting too.
And i thoroughly enjoy it.
But, my rifle is kept in a locked cuboard and is not loaded.
Quite useless for self defence really!

Your gun doesnt put thousands of lives in danger, but the collective existence has put many lives in danger.
Those kids who shot up columbine and the other schools (i forget their names) would not have been able, should not have been able to gt a hold of those guns.

If i had a kid who was over 16 and mature i might let them go hunting with me, but i certainly would not give them the key to the cuboard with the rifle.

Adults also have different opinions on the matter. I personally could not take away a life, even if it is a criminal.
Make no mistake, if my life is in danger, or my family's then I would not even bat an eyelid, and would kill him no problem. But I would not shoot a thief who came into my house even if i had a loaded gun with me, unless he threatened my life.
There are very few cases that i have heard of that the thief even is carrying a gun, let alone use it.
Thieves are there to steal not kill. If they kill somone it just makes it harder for them to get away! They will not kill you unless they have to, like if you are holding a gun against one of them. If you just told them to take what they want and to leave, that would give you more chances of survival than if you put a gun in their face.
Unless of course you are planning on shooting them without even checking.
This guy shot two 15 yearolds who came into his house to steal his tv. Okay they were commiting a crime but did they deserve to die?
My friend's guns which were stolen, are probably being used for illegal purposes right now, maybe even used to kill someone.
Liek the tree huggin hippy (j-k) said before, peace through mutual deterrence is not the answer.

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#103317 - 04/27/05 09:45 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA
MAGr

You had me until you mentioned that a thief is there to steal--not kill.

Problam I have with that is how are you supposed to KNOW why someone has broken. into your home.

Are they there to lift your silver and run?

Or are they pulling a "home invasion" where they are planning on raping your wife and daughter, then tortureing you to make you give up the locations of your valuables then shooting all three of you in the head--then driving off in you car?

Or are they some crack head that came to steal but when he finds you home panics and kills your whole family?

Or maybe they are here to kidnap your daughter.

I did not make up any of these examples--they have all happened.

How are you supposed know the INTENT of the guy that just broke into your home--what are you a mind reader?

If was just me in the house--I would probably take a chance--but with my wife or kids--no way.

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#103318 - 04/27/05 09:46 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


the problem with having firearms out there is not that the skilled and responsible ones will use them. the problem is how easy it is for them to fall into the hands of those who are too lazy and undisciplined to train and use them safely. it isn't that easy to get over the physcological barrier of beating somebody to death, or stabbing them. if you have a gun around the house, or your family does, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to kill. for what every reason, every year hundreds of people who grew up in houses with firearms, and who feel very safe with firearms, have firearm accidents. they felt just as competent as any body here did in their ability to handle their firearms safely.

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#103319 - 04/27/05 09:55 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The majority of childrens deaths in the home are due to gun accidents "just read this now from a newspaper on the net"

Not from crazy crackheads coming into your house!
What i am saying is that the 1/1000000 risk that a crackhead with a gun comes into your house is too small to justify easy ownership of handguns.
The risks of getting run over, or crashing the train on your way to work, some idiot on the street raping your daughter.
That is more likely, and yet people still justify the ownership of guns.

The amount of people that die every year from guns that are purchased are so much more than the deaths that they prevent.

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#103320 - 04/27/05 10:14 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I keep large canisters of good quality gas in my house. in the event of a break in, the plan is to fill the house up with gas, and get out with my family.

I fail to see a resonable scenario where a firearm would provide me with a more secure result, and I see many scenarios where somebody could get killed by my having a firearm in the house.

it is my belief that many people keep guns, not because they have figured out that they provide them with the best home security for their families, but for emotional reasons - they think guns are cool.

I don't want to get into a gunfight with a criminal. I am not that interested in killing the criminal. I have insurance on my possesions. all I am interested in is keeping my family safe. it makes no sense to guard my family from thieves and yet put something in my house that could cause lethal accidents.

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#103321 - 04/27/05 10:32 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
Let me give you a hypothetical scenario.
You are a 17 year old drug addict, and you need to get some cash.
There is a job oppening cleaning dishes in a restaurant, and there is also a wall mart selling guns so you can go rob a liquer store.
The gun option is there for the drug addict. He would think about it more however if the option was a knife rather than a gun.
[/QUOTE]

If he is a drug addict, and a criminal, then he isn't going to go through the red tape at wall mart to get a gun. You seem to think all the criminals like to shop at wall mart for their ak-47's or that they just ask for one and it's given to them.

I seriously doubt that criminals use the legal means to obtain weapons for illegal purposes. I just doesn't make sense. They use the "black market" or whatever, they don't go to Wall Mart.

Yes, 2 kids got guns way to easily and shot up their school. But how often does that happen? Out of 80,000,000 gun owners, 79,999,998 use them responsibly, but because the 2 who didn't killed people, all guns should be banned everywhere or some crazy strict law comes out making guns next to impossible for even the best law-abiding citizens to obtain?

Plus, this is the number of REGISTERED gun owners. I don't think any criminals, after getting their uzi and ski mask at wall mart, take a trip down to the police station to get it registered.

If you took the number of accidental gun deaths or deaths from crimes using guns, and subtracted that from the 80,000,000 gun owners, you still have a lot of responsible gun owners. I'd guess somewhere in the
90%'s easy.

Stricter gun laws can increase this number, and help reduce accidents, because hey, "knowing is half the battle". Education and proper training will only help.

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#103322 - 04/27/05 10:53 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by UofM Shorin Ryu:

Yes, 2 kids got guns way to easily and shot up their school. But how often does that happen? Out of 80,000,000 gun owners, 79,999,998 use them responsibly, .
[/QUOTE]


It wasnt just once or just two kids. Its happened once too many times recently.
And even onece is enough.
How many times did the 9-11 attack have to happen before they banned metal cutlery on planes?
Its not just 2 out of the whole population, if most childrens deaths at home are from gun accidents, then the number of people using them irresponsibly are way more than you are suggesting.

We have established that no one carries their gun on the street and are therefore vulnerable in the majority of dangerous situations.
We have also established that the likelyhood of someone coming into your home is smaller than the likely hood of someone using the gun irresponsibly.

You said that around you think around ninety percent of people use their guns responsibly (and that is a really high percentage in my opinion).
Do you think that 10% of all gunowners have been robbed?
NO.
So if the number of people robbed and that have had a gun in that situation, is smaller than the amount of accidents that have happened,
THEN......
WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING GUNS?

FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY!

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#103323 - 04/27/05 11:04 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA
MAGr

But that was not the example you raised--you said that a thief was there to steal--not kill.

And I am asking how you can possibly know why/the intent of someone that has broken into your home in the dead of night.

Children are ANOTHER issue--a very serious one I grant and one that needs to be discussed.
But they have nothing to do with the statement and example you listed above.

Gotta do this case by case.

For example given the deaths caused by cars--a REALLY high number--should we ban the use of cars?



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-27-2005).]

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#103324 - 04/27/05 11:12 AM Re: Guns as Self defence?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok,
I agree that you dont know the intent of someone entering your home.
But waht i am saying and i said it before aswell, is that the chance of an accident happening with a gun is bigger than the chance of a invader.

I know you have to take it case case by case, because peoples lives are not just statistics.
And i am sure that there have been situations that the presence of a gun would have benefitted the defender and even saved his life.

But when you are making regulations and laws, you have to deal with statistics.
And if the crimes commited to gun owners whihc were potentially lethal are less the number of accidents that have happened within gunowners, it followes that guns are not of benefit as self defence over all.
Does that make sense?

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