Good links Neko. And yes indeed the violent crime rate has gone up. But is that because of gun control or other factors (immergation, issues with aboringines). Both you and Sanchin make very good points and I respect your debating skills, but I am still to be convinced about "guns causing less crime". Still seems like an oxymoron to me.

Yes Sanchin, those figure were off the top of my head and probally not correct, sorry, my bad. But I still have never had any problems with guns, ever. The only time I saw lots of guns was when I visited my family in the US.

Both side have their statstics and I'm not really sure what to believe.

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

Facts from the Uniform Crime Report 2003-FBI:
In 2003, most of these violent crimes, 30.7 percent, were committed with personal weapons(hands, fists, feet, etc.), 26.9 of these offenses, firearms were the weapon of choice.
Knives or cutting instruments accounted for 15.2 percent of the weapons used in these violent crimes, other weapons were employed in 27.3 percent of these offenses.

One more thing to think about:

Think about this:

a. The number of physicians in the US is 700,000.
b. Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year is 120,000.
c. Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171. (US Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Then think about this:

a. The number of gun owners in the US is 80,000,000.
b. The number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) is 1,500.
c. The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Another reason for me to bite my tongue. According to stats New Zealand and Finland have among the top 5 highest violent crime rates in the world!

I'm from NZ but only saw one in my life. But both Finland and NZ have small populations. Does that have anything to do with the stats? NZ certianly didn't seem violent to me.

Damn Neko, you know your stuff. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

Sanchin, In 2003 350,000 crimes invloved firearms in the US (I admit, it doesnt say if the victims died or not). And interestingly 57% of actual deaths where suicides. 3 to 4,000 people died in 911. So what I said was right, at least that time, but I didn't back it up. Sorry. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 04-25-2005).]

crimes involved firearms-does not say they were used.
Only that a firearm was present during commision of a crime.

The statistics are crime rates adjusted for population size.
Usualy acts per 100,000 people.

Crimes involving firearms means robberies and such. A gun crime doesn't have to mean it was even fired.

I am still with Sanchin on this one. I agreed with another poster MaGon awhile back who mentioned incidents involving guns and their use for protection. Whether anyone likes it or not, the bad guys have them...and if I have a choice to protect me and mine with one...I'll take the choice of having one.

-B

Listen to yourself.
The bad guys have them!!!
You are so paranoid.
When was the last time you confronted someone with a gun. Its easy to say i have, over the internet.
But I dont believe you.
Fact is that if you are going to allow people to own handgun, you have got to educate them and you have got to do stict psychological screening. I m not against rifles and shotguns for sport, and you can use a shotgun for self defence.
handguns are made for killing.
Again, statistics can show anything you want them to show, there is no use in comparing stats.
I am talking about gun crime, not violent crime. I would rather have the crap kicked out of me than shot. I would rather be stabbed than shot. There are no eseis(spelling) with AKs on the streets in London, and armed robberies are rare. In Brazil, where you can get an automatic for around 50 bucks, people dont keep their money in banks anymore and there is a financial crisis.
I dont trust poeple with guns. And the arguement that if bad guys have them then i should have them. Is crap. NOONE should have them.
You can say what you want about Michael Moore, but all you know is what people have said of him. I dont know him, he might be a complete idiot, but at least he is raising questions, and not just sitting there staring blankly at the world.
All I know about gun crime, is through the media, and that is a highly unreliable source of perspective i admit. But to deny a trend between gun ownership and gun deaths is ignorant.
http://www.guninformation.org/

please look at the site.

[QUOTE]Just goes to show that new laws aren't needed. What's needed is stricter enforcement of old laws[/QUOTE]


Please read www.keepandbeararms.com

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]