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#102870 - 04/18/05 11:26 AM Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players? I've wondered this for a while but I'd like to take a census from experience to just Oppinonons.

From takedown to top grappling the wrestler seem to be able to counter and move with the BJJ guys until hes on the bottom.

Now a newbie wrestler may be easy to submit once on the ground but a wrestler with just a little back ground in Submission can do quite well.

Now I don't see wrestling as Complete as JJ but it can counter alot of JJ moves and setups, just by being shifting and balance.

Of course one of the keys that wrestler has to learn is not to use strength by extend his arms to push away and to never give up there his back/stop worrying about being pinned.

I've have background in both and Like I mentioned find JJ more complete. But wrestling though simple is effective in countering BJJ, espeicailly standing and on top, not too good finishing and on the bottom.

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#102871 - 04/18/05 11:40 AM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Neko

Care to post where I can I find the statistics for this conclusion?

Or are you just asking from person experience?

Important question. People make the mistake of taking their PERSONAL experience to be the experience of EVERYONE quite a bit--esp in the MA.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-18-2005).]

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#102872 - 04/18/05 11:54 AM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Neko -

????????

Counter BJJ guys? Do you mean wrestlers are able to neutralize the positions that BJJ guys use?

They are similar skillsets, and wrestlers are usually quite fit. I would say that a wrestler without knowledge of submissions is ultimately at a serious disadvantage vs. a BJJ guy (assuming the wrestler does not KO or simply outlast the BJJ guy).

My 2 cents.

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#102873 - 04/18/05 04:02 PM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
Anonymous
Unregistered


CXT - This is the census I'm asking from what you observed or experience isn't this what you found is true? Yes or No? Probably? I find that as long as the Wrestlers is on top he can compete well.

Mattj - I agree a wrestler without submission skills is at a disadvantage against a Judo or Jujitsu player. Especailly if he is on the bottom for sure 8-10 times he'll give up his back "thinking he going get pinned", then the fat lady sings. But on top he can ride the JJ guy into exhaustion as you mentioned or pound and ground.

Sometimes strikers trying t press their advantage can get off balance or loose it and get caught up over the shoulder of the guy on the ground and setup for an arm or reverse ankle lock or even triangle choke.

I've seen and can find data to support this but on a World wide there is enough experince here to use raw data.

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#102874 - 04/18/05 04:17 PM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all, it is all grappling.

Second, a competitive wrestler usually has more time on the mat and is in better physical condition than the average Jiu Jitsu player. In wrestling, the activity is driven by physical attributes as well as skill. In Jiu Jitsu, the emphasis is on skill.

At a certain level, things balance out. A wrestler who is in shape and has years of competitive training at college and even HS level can learn quickly how to play defense against a JJer.

This all works out very well for wrestlers until they run into someone who puts them on their back and keeps them there as even if you can avoid/ power out of submissions in someone's guard, you can still get the crap beaten out of you if you don't have your own skills from your back.

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#102875 - 04/18/05 04:24 PM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
First of all, it is all grappling.[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY! Many jits guys these days are current or former wrestlers. They tend to run over many pure wrestlers without the jits skills. Its all relative. As Fletch said, you have to have the bottom game firmly established. That "used" to be the foundation that a person's jiu-jitsu skill developed from.


-John

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#102876 - 04/18/05 04:31 PM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Neko

First--thats what I am asking you!

No, I have seen very few (as in none)pure grappling vs jujutsu matchs where the participent was ONLY/RESTICTED/ALLOWED to use techniques from "thier" style, and no other.

The only times I have seen guys roll has been folks trained in several arts--many of whom used to wrestle in HS/College IN ADDITION to their MA training.

So I honestly have no idea how to answer the question.

Love to see your "raw data."

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#102877 - 04/20/05 10:51 AM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
Anonymous
Unregistered


CTX- You guys reply is my Raw data, I agree most season grapplers have mixed skills but my observation was based on the new wrestler that just started in mix grappling, he still fairs well if you you just rolling around and he's on top.

Flecth1 - Its all just grappling is a profound statement and the fact that JJ spends only 2/3 its time rolling on the floor. The main advantage that I give JJ on the floor is that its trying to submitt/hurt you and wrestlers trying to pin your shoulders. Its the hardest thing for them instinctly stop doing or being afraid of. On his back his plan is to reverse or escape not fight from his back.

Jkogas - Your statement of working from the guard as a basic of JJ grappling is so true. But personally I feel better in someones half guard or when I'm in the mount, maybe its the wrestler in me but I don't like working from the Guard. But can counter and escape well if the guy mess up.

Doesn't the bridge in wrestling just throw the theroy of chest smoothering from the mount out the window. The back & legs are so strong that you can lift a guy trying to smoother you with his chest and reverse positions. JJ obviously doesn't teach this reversal.

Of course there mounds of things JJ teaches that Wrestling doesn't.

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-20-2005).]

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#102878 - 04/20/05 05:19 PM Re: Why is it that Wrestlers can Counter Jujitsu players?
Anonymous
Unregistered


For an example of this you could watch the Diego Sanchez fight vs Josh that put sanchez against kenny in the finals.

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