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#102736 - 04/15/05 10:40 AM Re: 21 feet
Anonymous
Unregistered


I didnt know about that 21 feet thing, how many meters is that around?
I do know however about the fact that if they have a gun shoved next to you, if you know what to do, it is suprisingly easy to take it away from them.
scenario:
someone is holding a gun facing you, to your ribs with their right hand. You turn your body on the spot, using it to push the muzzle out of the way. effectively you are on the side using your body as a block against him. He would then have to step and face you again, which by that time you should hopefully have the gun in your posetion.
Obviously i would not try it even after having it been shown to me to work.
I would still give them what they were asking for, unless they were asking for a life

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#102737 - 04/15/05 11:00 AM Re: 21 feet
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AgenT:
This reminds me of something I saw once in a class. The attacker started at 21 feet with the rubber knife, defender a gun. The attacker charged him, the defender did a combat roll similier to a judo roll but alot more sloppy since it was a stress test. He went half way across the room to. Also by the time the attacker changed course the guy had the gun drawn and could have pumped him full of lead. The defender managed to draw the gun before he rolled but just didnt have time. [/QUOTE]

That's why one of the standard counters to this scenario is to get get offline and retreat as you draw and fire. Getting offline forces the knife wielder to redirect, retreating gives the defender extra space and both hopefully buy the defender enough time to draw and fire.

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#102738 - 04/15/05 11:18 AM Re: 21 feet
Anonymous
Unregistered


In desperate situation you have to do desperate things, imagine not only turning your back slightly to the knife weilder but hitting the ground too.

I'd do it if I couldn't step around a table, or kick it at his legs or retreat in a semi circle, all you need is for him to pause or stumble, for a second. But with nothing there, the rolling recovery into a firing position would do nicely.

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#102739 - 04/16/05 11:25 AM Re: 21 feet
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
It originally came from the FBI package “surviving edged weapons” A video and training drills.

I have a copy of this, and the 21 ft is all to well demonstrated.

It does indeed have a sort of mutual “go” time. But it takes officer after officer 21 ft space to draw and fire 2 aimed shoots into a charging attacker with a blade.
Reminded me of the Hollywood western shoot outs with the gunman losing!

The drills from 6 ft were shocking, police officer not even got to his gun before knife man has run a rubber knife across his throat at full sprint.

Very informative, I still base most of my blade training on the principles that were demonstrated in this video.

mark


[This message has been edited by mark (edited 04-16-2005).]

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#102740 - 04/16/05 12:03 PM Re: 21 feet
Khayman Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 724
Loc: Wiltshire, UK
I have seen the surviving edged weapons video as well, its very well put together and quite an eye opener. They have Dan Inosanto and Leo Gage as in experts to show how easy it is to be cut.

In one section the have police officers who have been victims of an edged weapon talking about their experiences.
In another section they show you graphic pictures of real injuries that have been caused by an Edged weapon.
Leo Gage shows how quickly a trained person can draw a blade and cut in a variety of direction, they slow this down as its too fast to actually see.
They get Dan Inosanto run at officers to prove the 21 foot rule, all the officers get cut.
They also show correct searching techniques as one guy is shown with a variety of concealed weapons.
It really gets you thinking, I have seen jitsu classes still taught in the UK where as an attacker comes in with a downward swing of a bottle you merrily use technique no1: i.e. perform a cross arm open handed block followed by an armlock. oh so dangerous!

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#102741 - 04/16/05 03:16 PM Re: 21 feet
Anonymous
Unregistered


Unfortunately, the real lesson in the video is often overlooked. That is that when confronting an edged weapon in it's particular range, transitioning to a firearm is not necessarily the best tactical option.

Say you get the gun out and manage to get a shot off that lands center mass (torso). Is it over? Will the attacker stop immediately and lay down and die? Will his momentum simply disappear? Maybe. Maybe not.

Historically, it has been shown that a motivated attacker can continue forward towards his goal for at least long enough to close the distance even after receiving lethal shots to anything but the base of the spine, a relatively small target.

Fighting with a gun is different from gunfighting. Self defense and preservation should be more concerned with the fighting part.

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#102742 - 04/16/05 08:03 PM Re: 21 feet
Khayman Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 724
Loc: Wiltshire, UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
Unfortunately, the real lesson in the video is often overlooked. That is that when confronting an edged weapon in it's particular range, transitioning to a firearm is not necessarily the best tactical option.

Fighting with a gun is different from gunfighting. Self defense and preservation should be more concerned with the fighting part.
[/QUOTE]

Point taken, but for us in the UK the video is more relevant for highlighting the damage an edged weapon can do and the philosophy that you are going to get cut, so get cut with the minimal damage.
Thankfully for the subject of best handgun practice is not appropriate for our society.

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#102743 - 04/16/05 10:35 PM Re: 21 feet
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good point. The knife defense program I initially learned was from a Police Officer in North Hamptonshire.

The STAB program is also from the UK (www.karltanswell.com).

I use the same mindset for counter knife strategy that I use for counter gun or gun against knife and all goes back to my fight analogy.

"Ok, you got cut. Now what? Wanna quit?"

"Ok, The gun went off and you are shot. Now what? Wanna quit?"

"Ok, the guy is coming at you with a knife and you shoot him. He keeps coming even after getting hit. ........."

If the criminal can get through it and keep fighting, you can too.

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#102744 - 04/17/05 12:22 AM Re: 21 feet
Anonymous
Unregistered


Being an avid practitioner of "gun fu" [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I find this topic of interest.. I'll start of by saying I found this site searching for a MA style of my liking.. I'm a 22 yr. old Firefighter looking to complete my self defense training, Or try too!! anyway I was also told about the "21 foot rule" by my concealed carry instructor.. He showed us a video of a police officer with wax bullets gun holstered, and a BG with a marker (simulating a knife).. With the officer standing still, from draw fire he got marked across the chest and shot the BG in the hand only firing 1 shot (lost).. moving backwards he shot 3 times hit the BG once again in the hand and still got marked across the chest(lost).. However with the LEO moving at a 45 degree angle towards the BG he got 4 shots off all COM and never got touched(winner).. I was really amazed at the results and after consulting a couple leo buddies of mine, they all were taught the 45 degree movement some way or another.. Sounds good to me but I hope I'll never have to face that situation..
P.S Great site!!!!!!

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#102745 - 04/17/05 12:31 AM Re: 21 feet
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Hillbilly,
I thought hillbilly's were in Arkansas!!Sounds like you're getting good training. You'll like it here,lots of fun and learning.

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