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#102278 - 03/28/05 08:01 PM The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think all of us here would (I hope) agree that it is not right to go about maiming and killing just because some of us may have learned how.

I think that all of us here would also agree that it is CORRECT to defend yourself and others from aggressors.

Now I recently saw a thread advocating spearing the eyes as a technique for street combat. The first response on that thread was an ethically sound admonishment to never do any sort of thing.

This raises an important issue: how do we balance incapacitating an aggressor to the point that they cease to offer aggression without using unreasonable force?

Now I don't pretend to be a professional ethicist so I don't think I have all the answers to this quesion. But I do have some opinions I am willing to share.

1: The best way to end a confrontation is to never engage in one. If the opportunity to PREVENT a fight from occuring arises it should be siezed readily by ANY trained fighter.

2: The second best way to end a confrontation is to prevent the parties from engaging in struggle. This can be done by separating the parties using force. However if there is more than one person wanting to fight and if there are not an equal or (preferably) greater number of people restraining the would-be pugilists this may not work. This also will be less likely to work if you are directly participating in the conflict rather than intervening to defend the security of another.

3: The third best way to end a fight is fast. If a person can not be talked out of fighting and if a person can not be restrained they should be put out of commission as fast as possible. Broken bones will heal in time and even a small bone (when broken) provides sufficient pain to quell most aggressors urge to fight.

Fingers, toes, feet, wrists and noses are the easiest bones to break. Although arms and legs will (if broken) leave the aggressor less able to act they are also much harder to break, especially if the defender is the physically inferior individual.

After broken bones the next best way to end a fight is to damage soft tissue with a high concentration of nerves. This means groin shot and (yes) eye shot are high targets. The point where the jaw meets the neck and the sides of the neck in general also make good targets as do any spot on the head soft enough to present a viable target. There is one target that should be avoided in any altercation except for the most severe and that is a strike to the front of the throat; this is probably the most dangerous point to be struck on and can cause death sometimes.

A fight should be ended fast but remember the weight of law and of ethics lies on the victor of a fight more heavily than the loser in most jurisdictions and if the fight is in legitimate self-defense you will have be able to demonstrate that you acted with no more than minimal force to end the situation. This means that permanently maiming targets by (for instance)poking eyes or biting ears should be avoided unless an aggressor proves to either be too persistent to be put down by less or too physically superior for any other strategy to work.

This is where judgement becomes important so I think the most important rule is:

STAY CALM!

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#102279 - 03/28/05 08:23 PM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would say that u made a good speech there!lol!anyway when a mortal combat occurs u have to be sure tht ur enemy is down and stays down!meaning u hit vital areas and critical spots such as knee,groin jaw,solar plexus,lower ribs,armpit,throat,kidneys and back of the neck!when i train i train like i am surrounded with a lot of them so everi punch,kick and strike must ko,kill or incapacitate!it is very important to train in thAt way and to maintain discipline and spirit to go for a kill!if u do so the enemy will see it and it will fear u and possibly wont even start a fight!i rather dont start a fight then to fight and to let my oponent "live"!cus bastards always keep coming for more heheh!

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#102280 - 03/28/05 10:00 PM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


SimonM, I completly agree. Using your eyes and brain are so important in the real world. Also, I don't care what country you're from, overeacting in a self-defence situation can land you in serious trouble with the law. Just avioding violence is the best defence. However even if you can't aviod it you need to assess the situation. If someone simply starts a fight with you, you DO NOT have a license to beat the living crap out of them and put them in hospital.

I myself found myself in the middle of a pub brawl years ago (nothing to do with me, just didn't get out of the way quick enough) and had to defend myself. Depite, at that time, training in TKD, I just couldn't kick. I didn't feel it was justified in a simple brawl. Luckly my dojo did a lot of hand work and I was able to block, throw a punch and just get out of there. If I had kicked, I would have esculated the violence and probaly have a whole bunch of guys coming for me.

My point is if you just train to break bones and beat people to a pulp, you may, like me, find yourself in a situation where most of what you learnt is overkill and therefore, useless. Things like kicking to break bones, shatter knees and knock people out, eye gouging, etc, is serious stuff. You better be sure you are aware of the consequences of those techniques. I personally would only use them if I felt my (or my allies) life to be in danger.

Recently I have started doing Shorinji Kempo and Aikido. Especailly with Shorinji, the sensei always tells me to not hit so hard (my old TKD training). This is because in Shorinji, they aim to hit presure points with lightning fast strikes to disable, rather than destroy, the attacker. To me the control needed makes this far harder than just breaking bones (or boards) but I can see now its usefulness in a real situation.

Might is not always right.

[This message has been edited by JayJay (edited 03-28-2005).]

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#102281 - 03/28/05 11:29 PM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


true true. i have to agree. when in a confritation with someone, you must wisely choose your level of force against someone. like the police do you should have a system of amount of force used. forinstance if their just unarmed and want a fist fight, just take them down with presure points, or any way to make them be in pain. if they still insist on continuing the force, then it's more reasonable to apply more force, breaking bones ect. But when your opponent has a weapon, and is threatening yoru life, then like the police, it is ok to use deadly force, or incompacitate your opponent.But make sure that your enemy strikes first, so it's self defence. because remember, if you are trained in M.A. the law will charge it as assault with a deadly weapon.But if used in self defence, it's ok. as long as you can prove it ofcourse.

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#102282 - 03/29/05 02:06 AM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


That's a really smart post, SimonM. The way you described 1), 2) and 3) remind me of a little bit of the wisdom of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War." I don't know why I was reminded of that book, but your post got me thinking of it.

~CF

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#102283 - 03/29/05 10:44 AM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by journeyoflife:
That's a really smart post, SimonM. The way you described 1), 2) and 3) remind me of a little bit of the wisdom of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War." I don't know why I was reminded of that book, but your post got me thinking of it.

~CF
[/QUOTE]

Probably because I read a lot of strategists like Sun Tsu and Musashi in my youth and then read a lot of ethicists like Aurelius and Kierkegaard in University. My position is simple: Violence is wrong and causing the violence to end as rapidly as possible is best. I have been in a few fights in my day. I have usually escaped from these fights with no more than offensive injuries (cut knuckles and fingers). However I have avoided more fights than I have been in by simply talking my way out of the situation and calming any involved parties, this is the best solution. Otherwise there is too much risk of becoming a bully.

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#102284 - 03/29/05 10:48 AM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with the original post but I place purposeful bones breaking after the KO or Choke out, I think is kinder and gentler.
And it ends the threat a guy with a broken nose can still fight, though he is impaired and in great pain. Another strike there would certainlly test his fight drive and making him want to stop.

I feel that the if you can't talk your way out of a situation and have to fight your way out. I think the semi-unconcious or unconcious state is the safest for me and the assailant, sometimes you can catch him and lower him to the ground other times it happens so fast you just monitor him for injury.

Working techniques for the threat level is a sound practice. But like others have posted initally you don't know what the level is, until fists start flying.

I measure threat level at that point by how vicious his attack or how many are attacking. If a guys armed or really good I might strike his eyes with a finger sweep and if its more then one person attacking me I'm certainly looking for that oppurtunity.

But initially I want a quick ending weather its knocking the wind out of him/them, knocking them down or make them gag for breath or grab their eyes it depends on them or him. You can't go in half cocked/over confident you must evaluate and re-evaluate while the battle roars.

I place the KO 1st, maiming facial & Limb breaks 2nd (though a facial fracture could be part of the Ko s&%t happens), Eye or center line throat counter/attack 3rd, and so on...

Some guy's mouth plus their fist can talk themself into a pretty good a$$ whipping but you can't let their lack a$$ coverage have U end up in prison or jail(sometimes jail or scout car detention is unavoidable until the smoke clears).

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#102285 - 03/30/05 11:44 AM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neko456:
I think the semi-unconcious or unconcious state is the safest for me and the assailant,
[/QUOTE]

Although there is merit in what you suggest it is not always that easy. Some people have marvelously hard heads and may resist all but the most determined efforts to KO them. Again we cannot assume that we will be physically superior in a fight. If the aggressor is strong enough (or dirty enough) to avoid a choke and has too hard a head to KO the would be KO-er will be facing an angered opponent who still retains complete functionality. Perhaps the nosebreak is one that we can agree on but I still think that causing persistent pain is more likely to end a fight than attempting to cause unconsciousness.

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#102286 - 03/30/05 01:37 PM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with the bulk of your supposition but would steer clear of getting between or trying to separate folks that are getting ready to go at it. I've seen the "good samaritan" get clocked way to many times. Other than that...valid points are made in your post.

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#102287 - 04/06/05 10:49 AM Re: The importence of accurately gaguing threat level.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by snakeeel:
I've seen the "good samaritan" get clocked way to many times. Other than that...valid points are made in your post. [/QUOTE]

Yeah; I have taken a couple of lumps in my time but it hasn't done any lasting harm.

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