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#101392 - 02/23/05 02:52 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by coxne:
Someone mentioned grabbing the slide saying that it won't let the gun recoil and therefor you won't get shot. The recoil happens after the gun is shot. On semi autos, a bullet is in the chamber, and the hammer is cocked. Pulling the trigger will drop the hammer causing it to fire. After it shoots, the slide goes back ejecting the spent cartride, loads another, and pulls the hammer back for a second shot. So grabbing the barrel, and just holding it, will get you shot assuming the guy had it cocked before sticking you up. I would give them what they wanted, but if you want to defend, I would say block the gun out of the way and continue from there. [/QUOTE]

Don't forget that in double- action semi- autos the hammer doesn't need to be cocked in order to fire. If there's a round in the chamber, these guns WILL FIRE with the hammer down. Pulling the trigger cocks and drops the hammer the same as on a revolver.

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#101393 - 02/23/05 03:46 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


obviously you dont know what you are talking about MAgon, try it, it doesnt matter if the hammer is cocked or not, gripping the slide firmly will allow the bullet in the chamber to fire, but that is it. if you dont believe me go to a shooting range, get a semi auto and hold the barrel firmly and pull the trigger, the bullet will exit, but the casing wont eject.
I don't know about you but I have used this defense in real life, it actually works

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#101394 - 02/23/05 06:25 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with some of you and disagree with others.

Trying to duplicate this scenario in training is a very difficult task. Working a "move" and going for speed is only half of the equation. The reality is that no matter what your technical training, the adrenalin dump and fear that you will experience at that moment will affect your decision to act or not.

Getting your hands burned or pinched by the slide of a Glock (which has an internal hammer) should be the least of your worries.

I have worked this many times with sim weapons. Sometimes you get bit. You make up your mind that you are going to deal with it and not stop fighting.

In the ISR Matrix, they have what I believe is one of the best Counter-Gun programs available. It is restricted to LEO however.

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#101395 - 02/23/05 10:05 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I take it not many of you have actually had a hold of the Braael while a gun is being fired. When a gun is fired the bullet travels at such a high rate of speed that it produces heat. A lot of heat. So much so that as the bullet is traveling down the barrel, the barrel swells. Now if you want to do something real dumb, go grab your revolver, step outside and firmly grip the barrel as some of you have suggested and pull the trigger. Dont shoot yourself just shoot in some open area. You will feel the swell, it will hurt immensely and you will drop the gun. Everytime.

The disired effect isnt to fight over the weapon. You waste a lot of energy trying to control and grapple someone. not to mention that the longer the weapon is in either combatants hand, the more chance there is for severe injury or worse. Knock the weapon to the side. Even if it doesnt leave the opponents hand it should no longer be a threat. Since you have knocked the gun away your main focus is the enemy. Rush him fast and hard and dont stop. The opponents focus at this moment isnt on defence but on putting the gun back in front of him in a postion to hurt you. This is his mistake and your one key to victory. Obviously range makes a difference. Me myself, Id never go for it past five feet away. Unless I had reason to believe that I could do it successfully or I thought it was my only hope to survive. Five feet or shorter, Im going for it everytime. Ive successfully defended myself from weapons four times. Once against a gun, twice against a knife and once against a golf club. I never had too bad of injuries that I could walk away and I feel like the biggest reason that is is because I view the weapon as the opponents weakness. I address it once, hard, then I dont worry about it again. Might not work for everyone but worked for me.

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#101396 - 02/23/05 10:18 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I take it not many of you have actually had a hold of the Braael while a gun is being fired. When a gun is fired the bullet travels at such a high rate of speed that it produces heat. A lot of heat. So much so that as the bullet is traveling down the barrel, the barrel swells. Now if you want to do something real dumb, go grab your revolver, step outside and firmly grip the barrel as some of you have suggested and pull the trigger. Dont shoot yourself just shoot in some open area. You will feel the swell, it will hurt immensely and you will drop the gun. Everytime.

The disired effect isnt to fight over the weapon. You waste a lot of energy trying to control and grapple someone. not to mention that the longer the weapon is in either combatants hand, the more chance there is for severe injury or worse. Knock the weapon to the side. Even if it doesnt leave the opponents hand it should no longer be a threat. Since you have knocked the gun away your main focus is the enemy. Rush him fast and hard and dont stop. The opponents focus at this moment isnt on defence but on putting the gun back in front of him in a postion to hurt you. This is his mistake and your one key to victory. Obviously range makes a difference. Me myself, Id never go for it past five feet away. Unless I had reason to believe that I could do it successfully or I thought it was my only hope to survive. Five feet or shorter, Im going for it everytime. Ive successfully defended myself from weapons four times. Once against a gun, twice against a knife and once against a golf club. I never had too bad of injuries that I could walk away and I feel like the biggest reason that is is because I view the weapon as the opponents weakness. I address it once, hard, then I dont worry about it again. Might not work for everyone but worked for me.
[/QUOTE]

I know it get's hot, but not that hot. Besides if it's a ceramic gun (the kind that you can get through a detector) than I think, and that is think since I don't have conclusive proof yet, that it won't get as hot.

But besides that, I know alot about weapons like that, I even took apart an M4 once and put it back together. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some legistics to take care of.

Oh, does anyone know where I can LEGALLY purchase an M4A2, preferably in HA, CA, AL, or AZ?

[This message has been edited by Oozuru (edited 02-23-2005).]

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#101397 - 02/24/05 09:42 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all, why the bejeezus do you wish to purchase an m4? The big military battle rifles? Believe me, no matter how much you practice on the real thing, you'll never learn to disarm an opponent wielding one of those [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

And if I may ask, why is everyone throwing the gun away? If I get the angle correct and force the wrist lock, he's giving me that damned gun or sacrificing his wrist bones. And I will continue to twist LONG after I hear the snap if he doesnt release.

I'd do everything in my power not to neutralize the gun, but to obtain it. Just my opinion.

- Op. Skinny Ninja

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#101398 - 02/24/05 09:52 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Don't forget that in double- action semi- autos the hammer doesn't need to be cocked in order to fire. If there's a round in the chamber, these guns WILL FIRE with the hammer down. Pulling the trigger cocks and drops the hammer the same as on a revolver.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, wasn't thinking of those... but my point still stands [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#101399 - 02/24/05 04:01 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OperationSkinnyNinja:
First of all, why the bejeezus do you wish to purchase an m4? The big military battle rifles? Believe me, no matter how much you practice on the real thing, you'll never learn to disarm an opponent wielding one of those [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

And if I may ask, why is everyone throwing the gun away? If I get the angle correct and force the wrist lock, he's giving me that damned gun or sacrificing his wrist bones. And I will continue to twist LONG after I hear the snap if he doesnt release.

I'd do everything in my power not to neutralize the gun, but to obtain it. Just my opinion.

- Op. Skinny Ninja
[/QUOTE]

Here is a few good reasons to dump the gun.
1) Its someone elses. It could work, it could explode in your hand. It could already be a dirty gun thats killed someone or their family and now your prints are on it.

2) Cops. If the cops get called about a fight with a gun involved and they walk up with the one guy screaming about his broke arm and you clinching his gun, who do you think is going to go to jail? You are. Either because you are going to appear to be the aggreesor or because you simply went too far in defending yourself and you are going to jail for felony assault.

3)He might have another gun. You going to get into a shootout? Going to do it with an unfimiliar weapon that may or may not work properly?

4)By picking up the gun your weapons have been reduced because your focus has changed from protecting yourself to holding this weapon and possibly using it.

Its just not smart. Leave the gun, hurt the bad guy, and run like hell.

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#101400 - 02/24/05 04:57 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


IF you run, don't forget to pull out the clip and drop it half way through on the way to the police. I mean no one wants to hear that a member here died, right, a gun without ammunition is useless.

[This message has been edited by Oozuru (edited 02-24-2005).]

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#101401 - 02/24/05 10:08 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A gun without ammo is a hammer. It is still a weapon.

Losing focus of the gun is a huge training mistake in my opinion. I say "training" because I believe honestly, no matter how much you try to ignore the gun, tunnel vision will draw you to it and you'll end up fighting over it anyway. Since that is what I believe will happen (based on many reported live incidents and countless unrehearsed training exercises), I choose to base my tactics on that perspective of reality.

But that's me.

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