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#101402 - 02/25/05 01:20 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
A gun without ammo is a hammer. It is still a weapon.

Losing focus of the gun is a huge training mistake in my opinion. I say "training" because I believe honestly, no matter how much you try to ignore the gun, tunnel vision will draw you to it and you'll end up fighting over it anyway. Since that is what I believe will happen (based on many reported live incidents and countless unrehearsed training exercises), I choose to base my tactics on that perspective of reality.

But that's me.


Its interesting how the weapon, once introduced, becomes the main focus by both participants. The unarmed man, often times focuses on the weapon and the guy holding the weapon usually only attacks with the hand holding the weapon, disregarding defence as well.

The way I look at it is this: If Im pummeling your face, the last thing you are going to be able to do is use that weapon. Lets be honest here, if you pull a weapon on me, Im trying to kill you. With every hit Im trying to take your life because you are attempting to take mine and you have a tool to do so. Theres no way the man with the weapon is going to hold me off with one hand while trying to attack me with a weapon in his other hand. His only hope is that he has adequate distance. Once attacked, if the attack is pressed the fight is over. Hes limited in his actions unless he drops the gun. If he does that he still has to recover the offensive. Not going to be an easy task while trying to keep someone from destroying you.

#101403 - 02/25/05 11:11 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?

We are going to have to disagree on this one.

I simply think it is rather presumptious to believe that you can always seize the initiative and attack using a cognitive plan to ignore the weapon. There are too many factors to ignore.

While this plan may work sometimes, it's consistent success and reliability for people of diffent abilities and attributes is questionable.

Most people are not always dialed in or prepared for confrontation. That is something that should be factored into training.

#101404 - 02/25/05 12:49 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Not too many things work for the masses. Especially in extreme situations like this one. What would you have the student do; focus solely on the weapon? Why? To me this strategy leaves you lacking in defence. Lets not forget that the whole time you are trying to grab twist and jerk this weapon that there is a resisting opponent. Most likely he's going to try and knock you around while you are busy scrambling for the weapon. Thats not good enough for me. I want it over quickly. Address the weapon, but do it hard and fast and forget it. You arent fighting the weapon you are fighting the man holding the weapon. A lot of people forget that.

#101405 - 02/25/05 01:52 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I have to side with Fletch on this one. I previously mentioned an article I read some years ago on gun disarms, and that one of the findings was that LEOs with a weapons background were FAR more likely to achieve the disarm successfully than those with a MA background. The reason was PRECISELY what you guys are debating about: The LEOs with a weapons background concentrated on controlling and disabling the GUN (Web of thumb between hammer and firing pin, hand grasping revolver cylinder and preventing it to rotate and the hammer to rise, etc.). LEOs with MA backgrounds tended to concentrate on attacking the opponent, with less than desirable results mostly (Sorry, can't remember author, title, magazine or even the date. Take it for what it's worth).
For those people that hit like a mule's kick, ignoring the gun after getting out of the line of fire might very well work. For the rest of us, though...

#101406 - 02/26/05 12:18 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?

Two opposing viewpoints. No problem.

For the record, our counter-gun training goes a lot deeper than just focusing on and scrambling for the gun. There is a very specific and common dynamic that we address that is core to the program.

Suffice it to say, I believe that anyone practicing counter-gun tactics (I hate the term disarms) should be very familiar with how a handgun works. I do not however, believe that everyone must know guns inside and out and vigerously practice blocking the hammer with the webbing of their fingers in order to be able to respond effectively.

#101407 - 02/26/05 04:31 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?

I agree with Fletch, you should know the basics of the gun, but dont have to be an expert on it.
Also, the training that tells you to but the web of the hand to keep the hammer from striking the firing pin is not very good, it is hard trying to get it in their in the first place.
Lastly, after moving the gun out of the line of fire, divert your attention to the opponent and strike targets that will override his consciece thought. (i.e. eyes, throat, groin). This will distract him from taking the weapon away

#101408 - 02/27/05 11:18 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I think that if you can get the gun quickly thats great. But the last thing I want is to take too long with it and get stabbed by the other hand. Id say it mostly depends on your opponent.

#101409 - 02/28/05 06:54 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?

[QUOTE]Id say it mostly depends on your opponent. [/QUOTE]

As it always does. Wise words.

#101410 - 03/01/05 06:31 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?

I skipped through a good portion of this post, but got the main points and just wanted to add my two cents if they haven't been added already.

First off, statistics tell us that if somebody has pulled a gun on you chances are they are going to use it. Secondly, you really do have to know how guns work to be able to disarm them correctly.

I know of two steps for a >more< succesful avoidance, unfortunately I've only had them spoken to me.
1)The most important part is knowing which way the gun recoils when fired, which is all dependant on the hand the gun is being fired from. When you fire a gun it recoils back at an angle generally towards the face.
2)Now that you've assessed which way the gun recoils, you move in the opposite direction(down at an angle most likely) and push the gun in the direction of the recoil.

but then you have to disarm or immobilize and that's dangerous.

Rule of thumb, best way to stay out of danger is to avoid dangerous situations.

#101411 - 03/05/05 09:31 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?

Can't believe how much hollywood-ized misinformation is on this thread.

1) An auto can and will fire even if you hold the slide or prevent it from recoiling [think--where does the recoil come from?]

2) The slide will move back even if you hold it; you'll just cut some skin off your hand and get a burn for your trouble.

3) Most 9mm, sold before and after the [US AW] ban, are 17 round [or 15, or various other--in other words, double-stacked magazines].

4) If you are being shot at, you will not be able to count. Higher brain functions like counting don't work. You'll think 10 shots is 100. That only works in the movies.

5) Most people intending to kill you would not do it with a gun to your head. [But then again I'm not SURE I'd want to risk it, and being close is a good oppty to disarm--depends on the situation I suppose. If it's a stickup, the guy is masked, and doesn't seem like he's on crack, I'd PROBABLY just try to remain calm.]

6) Handgun engagements are FAR less lethal than TV/movies make them out to be. First inescapable fact: handguns are INCREDIBLY innacurate. On average you've only got a few measly inches of rifling to stabilize the bullet. That's why the targets are so close at the pistol range [the real ones that is], and the patterns so bad. Secondly, since the barrel is so short, it is extremely hard to aim under duress. On TV cops always use the "stiff-arm" approach. That can work for LEOs who get alot of range time. But when the adrenaline pumps, those dots just DO NOT line up. And the barrel is so short, it's hard to tell which way it's pointing! Sounds crazy, but that's the way it works when the adrenaline is pumping. Long rifles are different--you have a looong barrel which, by itself, is a good clue as to where it's pointing even without the sights. Your best bet with a handgun, esp for defense, is to practice, practice, practice shooting it by feel, from a high-hip. That is shooting from pure muscle memory--much less accurate than aiming in a controlled environment, but far more accurate for most average people with the adrenaline pumping. Good luck finding a range that will let you do that though. Third, most handgun engagements happen at a distance of less than 10 feet (!). Fourth, anything over 20 feet: RUN! Preferably around a corner or in a random pattern. The odds of them hitting you are SLIM TO NONE. It's not at all like the movies. It's rather pathetic, actually, if you see some police videos--head-on engagements at 20 feet where both clips are EMPTIED, and neither cop nor crook gets hit. All yet more reasons that handguns make a very poor choice for home defense (a 5.56 carbine or better yet a baseball bat are far more effective and safe choices--[safe because you have better aim, and 9mm penetrates through 3 layers of sheetrock, while NATO 5.56 stops at the first).

7) TRY to notice (through the adrenaline) if the guy has his finger on the trigger. If he does, he's an amatuer with a gun, and dangerous. If it's to the side, and his other actions support the notion, then he's probably a pro and knows the consequences of murder, and just wants the money.

Oh man I could go on but I gotta go.

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