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#101362 - 02/16/05 03:50 PM Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I say they point it at your head this assumes they're right up next to you, on which side...I can't say, but just assume it's in front.

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#101363 - 02/16/05 05:36 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oozuru,

First off, Gun disarms are a DICEY propostion at best. But, I know you know that.

I can't tell you how anything is going to go down. A lot of the disarms taught at most schools don't happen that way in real life.

I can hope to impart basic principles.

1) Body rotation and stance shifting, make yourself as thin a target as possible.
2) Clasp both hands around the gun. Soft and gentle, not hard and brittle.
Be aware of the hammer/ slide.
3)Clear the weapon to the outside. 100% of the time clearing to the inside brings the barrel to center mass. That means if the trigger goes off, by accident or on purpose. What ever the barrel points at, the bullet will hit!
THAT MEANS YOU!!!
4)Twist the barrel upward, and outward to affect the joint lock. Kick the shin to unbalance the assailant.
If the guy has a stable base, he'll be able to fight back and regain control successfully.
5) From there lock on to targets available and strike! Strike first, Strike hard, Strike repeatedly. Keep going until he's no longer a threat. Once neutralized STOP! Take the gun, from him and RUN !!!
6) Do not use the gun yourself!!!
That gun is not yours!, You don't know if it is on safety, if it is even loaded. You never know if it will misfire or jam.
The last place you want to be in is in a court room trying to establish that he was the hold up guy, if your fingerprints are also on the trigger.
Lastly, remeber what he perp looked like and report him to the police, give them the gun with his prints on the trigger! Hand it to them slowly and handle first (Hold it by the barrel it from pointing at anyone, especially yourself.

I hope this helps and I know that others will add their good advice as well. Please take heed of our words, and the best defense...
Don't be there in the first place!!

Joel

[This message has been edited by JoelAp_Self Protection (edited 02-16-2005).]

[This message has been edited by JoelAp_Self Protection (edited 02-16-2005).]

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#101364 - 02/16/05 05:59 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If the gun is really close at my head I would try to disarm him. SOunds stupid but think for a minute. If he wants to kill you would you A)stand there and died

OR

B)Died trying........

Think about it................

*Inuyasha*

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#101365 - 02/16/05 07:47 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


For gun disarm it very dangerour you only get one chance to get it right, so you are going to try to disarm someone with a gun, Do it right.

One of important is to get the pairol, sorry spelling, away from you. If you happen to grab their hand that holding the gun, now matter don't let go,

I try to avoid as much as possible, but if it's a life and situation, me personally I try to disarm my opponents.

taichi

kempo warrior

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#101366 - 02/16/05 09:44 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I really appreciate you guys, I LOVE YOU GUYS. But I already know this, in fact two weeks ago me and some friends (Nick&Aaron) were trying this with empty clips. I think even if they were blanks, you guys might take it out of proportion saying "you should know better." But I do (not saying you did say this), that's why I use empty clips. Just remember, you don't have to be in the non-civilian sector to practice these techniques. As a matter of fact, I recomend you guys start now (assuming you have'nt).
Also, we practice using human shields for a just in case thing. Just because there might be 4 guys in a diamond formation around you with guns DOESN'T make you as good as dead, take my word on it.

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#101367 - 02/17/05 12:03 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its a scary situation to be in. Move the barrel away quickly then forget about the barrel.

It may sound weird but when facing an armed opponent the weapon should only be the primary focus when you initially begin the disarm. As long as you clear it from the target, then you can attack the opponent hard and fast. This negates the use of the weapon as the opponent is trying to keep his skull from caving in.

If you focus too much on the weapon then you expose yourself to the opponent. As long as you have a hand on the weapon then there is a hole in your defenses and a weakness in your offense.

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#101368 - 02/17/05 05:54 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Excellent post, JoelAP.

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#101369 - 02/17/05 08:02 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not trying to bump this or anything, but I forgot to mention I practice with guys who would ABSOLUTELY NOT hesitate to pull a trigger. So naturally they are good with firearms, given that you'd expect a 'click' the first twenty or so times I tried a disarm. But I've gotten better, and the click now comes after the gun is pointed away from my head.

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#101370 - 02/18/05 12:52 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


MattJ,

Thank you so much for your support.
Well met my friend.

To the forum,

Please keep in mind this fact.
We do not have a bright red "S" on our chest.
We aren't bullet proof.
Hold up at gun point situations are not were anyone want to be.
If it is a hold up, you'll realize this in your ooda loop.
Observe what is happening.
He hasn't shot me yet.
Organize what you have at hand in your advantage.
My hands are up and close enough to effect the grab, my leg is close enough to kick his shin.
Decide on your couse of action.
If i'm going to do this...
Action implemented.
NOW!!!
This has to in a blink of the eye.

The criminal mind set is...
If he wanted to shoot you, he'd have already done so.
A hold up, is a threat of violence.
He wants something else instead of your life at that point.

So If the guys you train with don't hesitate, have them think in terms of the criminal. Else your training isn't preparing you right. You're heart and mind aren't racing and freezing at the same time (Adrenal dump), Because they aren't threatening you like a criminal would.
Have them add that aspect and you'll get even better prepared Oozuru.

I say that since it sounds like your training partners aren't taking the senario seriously. Like they just want to squeeze the trigger no matter what.
Is that the case? Or am I completely off?
If the latter I apologize and keep doing what your doing.

Joel

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#101371 - 02/18/05 10:17 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Lets face it, most of us would crap our pants if some one stuck a barrel to your head. All the training in the world doesn't matter if your not mentally ready to "make the move" I know that If my life was in danger I would try but I still wonder if my timming, speed will be enough at "that time". There are a lot of variables to consider, what if you miss the first try, your hand might be to wet, can you accually see the gun in the dark, is the pistols hammer pulled back, what state of mind is the attacker in? My favorite part of MA is self defense but I hope that I never have to try and disarm someone with a knife or gun.

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#101372 - 02/18/05 03:32 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
sunspots Offline
oldtimer/newbie
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 650
Loc: Southern Oregon, USA
Having been in that situation, I gave the man what he wanted, money from a convenience store I was working in. I wasn't about to risk my own life for a few bucks, and they were insured anyway. Gave me time enough to get a good look at the guy, give a full description of robber, gun, and vehicle, and they caught him about a hour later. I think it was the best possible outcome.

I may be faster than a gun, but no one is faster than a bullet. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#101373 - 02/18/05 04:01 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoelAp_Self Protection:
MattJ,

Thank you so much for your support.
Well met my friend.

To the forum,

Please keep in mind this fact.
We do not have a bright red "S" on our chest.
We aren't bullet proof.
Hold up at gun point situations are not were anyone want to be.
If it is a hold up, you'll realize this in your ooda loop.
Observe what is happening.
He hasn't shot me yet.
Organize what you have at hand in your advantage.
My hands are up and close enough to effect the grab, my leg is close enough to kick his shin.
Decide on your couse of action.
If i'm going to do this...
Action implemented.
NOW!!!
This has to in a blink of the eye.

The criminal mind set is...
If he wanted to shoot you, he'd have already done so.
A hold up, is a threat of violence.
He wants something else instead of your life at that point.

So If the guys you train with don't hesitate, have them think in terms of the criminal. Else your training isn't preparing you right. You're heart and mind aren't racing and freezing at the same time (Adrenal dump), Because they aren't threatening you like a criminal would.
Have them add that aspect and you'll get even better prepared Oozuru.

I say that since it sounds like your training partners aren't taking the senario seriously. Like they just want to squeeze the trigger no matter what.
Is that the case? Or am I completely off?
If the latter I apologize and keep doing what your doing.

Joel
[/QUOTE]

Close enough, they wouldn't hesitate IF I MESSED UP OR IF THEY SAW MY HAND COMMING.

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#101374 - 02/18/05 04:30 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The most important thing to know about a gun technique is that if they wanted you dead you would be already. Seeing how the gun is in a threatening position they obviously want something from you. Also remember that your action is always faster then someone’s reaction…… also most hand guns wont fire if they cant recoil first. You need to grab the barrel of the gun and keep it off of you. That’s the foremost principle of any gun technique.

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#101375 - 02/19/05 08:40 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


ill just give him a ryouken

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#101376 - 02/19/05 09:10 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dont you people know ANYTHING??
You just plug up the barrel with your index finger.
Then if they try to shoot you the gun will explode in their face, turning it all black.
While they stand there dumbfounded you turn around and dive (yes, DIVE) into your rabbit hole, to finish off that last batch of carrots.

Duuhh

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#101377 - 02/19/05 09:43 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've heard that often, when people are robbed at gunpoint, it is with a low-quality handgun that is not cocked. Hence, a quick second and a half for disarmament.

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#101378 - 02/20/05 02:25 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
Take a marker out of your pocket, and stick it behind the gun's trigger, then it can't shoot! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

But seriously, if you are in that situation, get the gun pointed away from you fast as you can. Don't wrestle, don't attempt a flashy disarm, be completely still, then explode your hands onto his arm and push it into the air.

If this doesn't make him drop it, he will most likely start shooting it, THAT is the most critical time to keep the gun astray until it's empty. Count the shots.

Revolvers:
.38 - 5 Rounds
.357- 6 Rounds

Semi-Auto:
.45- 8 Rounds (9 if chambered)
9mm- 7-8 Rounds (+1 if chambered)

Those are the most common firearms used in attacks.

[This message has been edited by Chang Wufei (edited 02-21-2005).]

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#101379 - 02/20/05 02:45 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Now I’m not sure about this co correct me if I am wrong. That semi auto that you mentioned cant fire if you don’t let it recoil correct. So say you grab the barrel of the gun get it off of you it cant fire until you let it go. I know that most of my gun techniques end up breaking the persons finger and this would all be in vain if that wouldn’t work. I know that attacking a person with a fire arm is unexpected. That’s a advantage in my technique I would think that by breaking the finger it would press the trigger and I would get “caped ”

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#101380 - 02/20/05 03:15 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
That's very true, but I was referring to diverting his arm by controlling it with his forearm, more leverage, and I think it would be a little too risky for me to actually grab the gun's barrel. Way too many "What If's", but it comes with a situation that involves a gun.

Damn gangbanger wannabes.

[This message has been edited by Chang Wufei (edited 02-20-2005).]

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#101381 - 02/20/05 07:30 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'd give him my wallet and try to buy my way out. your suggestions, although appreciated, would be plan B.

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#101382 - 02/20/05 08:51 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just because he has a gun to my head, doesn't mean he wants my wallet. Its possible he just wants me dead.

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#101383 - 02/21/05 04:56 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


lets get realistic, if the guys not a rookie, then you have no change, rememer that a bullet shot from a standard pisol travels at twice the speed of sound, and if u tried 2 fend it off the persons reaction would have 2 be CRAP! there holding it at u and all they need 2 do is squezze the trigger.

If i knew the were gonna shoot me ofcourse i would try something, but its next 2 impossible. Its not the matrix.

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#101384 - 02/21/05 08:21 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First thing i would do is quickly move my head away from the position of the gun. In a blink of an eye, move your head away, use your arm and push the gun away from your direction. Then dont hestitate or panic and try to get the gun away. Remember, while doing that, point the gun AWAY FROM YOURSELF. The best way to do this is try to hurt his wrist and make him drop the gun or something. Adrenalin Rush would probably give you more power.

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#101385 - 02/22/05 02:17 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Inferior:
First thing i would do is quickly move my head away from the position of the gun. In a blink of an eye, move your head away, use your arm and push the gun away from your direction. Then dont hestitate or panic and try to get the gun away. Remember, while doing that, point the gun AWAY FROM YOURSELF. The best way to do this is try to hurt his wrist and make him drop the gun or something. Adrenalin Rush would probably give you more power.

[/QUOTE]

I wrote the story below in another thread similar to this one about a year ago. Although if I thought the assailant was going to pull the trigger, I'd try to react somewhat as described (Move head away while simultaneously grabbing the gun hand and pushing it away from my head, then push- twisting the barrel vertically towards the assailants wrist with my other hand, hopefully breaking at least his trigger finger in the process), this anecdote should serve as a caution to the over- confident:

"A "sea story" for you guys:
I have a friend who has been (And remains, now in "Masters" class) a successful Karate tournament competitor. A little more than 10 yrs. ago he participated and won Grand Champion in a fairly large tournament that was held in a somewhat remote town. After the tournament he celebrated his victory with a "tail gate" party in the parking lot of the arena where the competition was held. As a result, it was very late at night when this more- than- slightly- impaired "Champ" started making his way home via a very narrow, dark, winding road.
About a quarter of the way there, a man appeared in the middle of the road just before a curve, frantically waving him to stop. Suspecting the worst, he instead floored the gas and swerved around the fellow, in order to get away. As it turned out, the guy was waving him down because he'd just stalled out beyond the curve and his car was in the middle of the road. My friend, going fast and more than slightly inebriated (Heh, heh, heh!!)... Weeeell, you guessed it, he ploughed into the other fellas car, but good!!!
After the obligatory "Oh, s..ts", "G..damns" and "Why didn't you..."s the both of them (As it turns out, the other guy was also not at his best, it being a Saturday night and his having been partying as well!) decided to sit and wait for the police to show up, an unlikely event indeed in that remote location (But such are the miraculous effects of alcohol consumption upon the brain!!!).
After about an hour of sitting around, another car, with about 5 individuals in street clothes, stopped. The men got out and fanned out around my friend and the other fellow. As this was going on, the driver approached and said he was a police officer and asked what had happened. The other driver (Who was the drunker of the 2) started giving this man the particulars of the accident. My friend, though, had in the interim sobered up somewhat (Not enough, though, as you'll see!!) to take note that:
1. These new arrivals weren't uniformed, and detectives don't get hands- on involved in traffic accidents.
2. Cops don't patrol 5 to a car.
3. There was no radio chatter coming from the "police vehicle".
Whereupon he took it upon himself to demand I.D. from "Officer Friendly". The man obliged him by pulling out a .45 Auto, clapping it to his head and saying: "Motherf...er, stand still." By then the rest of the "officers" had also drawn guns.
Now my buddy was an accomplished tournament fighter, but had never used his Karate for self- defense. He'd often said that he felt a need to test himself in a real situation, but being the good- natured soul that he was he defused those confrontations that he got into with his quick wit and sense of humor. But now, he later recounted, HERE was his chance against genuine bad guys in a real "Do or die" situation.
So, his brain still floating warmly in a sizable pond of good rum, he suddenly pivoted and swung out with a sword hand strike, aiming for the wrist of the mugger still holding the .45 to his head. And half way into the strike, the mope pulled the trigger... And the gun failed to fire!!! Probably because this street punk's (Like most of his ilk) only knowledge of guns was that you pressed the trigger and it went "Bang!". He would probably have been floored by the notion that you have to occassionally clean the thing, or it WOULDN'T go "Bang!"
In any case, my buddy exultantly followed through with his strike and successfully knocked arm and gun from his head... Only to have it promptly cracked by another of the muggers, who whacked him with his gun barrel ("Buffaloed" him, Wyatt Earp would've called it) smartly on the noggin'.
So, instead of winding up robbed of his money and possesions and left by the side of the road, he wound up robbed of his money and possesions and left lying ON the road half concious with a bleeding gourd to show for his trouble... And sending his thanks in prayer to the Blessed Virgin, the gods, his fairy godmother or WHOMEVER had let him live after making such a damn fool of himself!!!"



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 02-22-2005).]

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#101386 - 02/22/05 02:42 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Someone mentioned grabbing the slide saying that it won't let the gun recoil and therefor you won't get shot. The recoil happens after the gun is shot. On semi autos, a bullet is in the chamber, and the hammer is cocked. Pulling the trigger will drop the hammer causing it to fire. After it shoots, the slide goes back ejecting the spent cartride, loads another, and pulls the hammer back for a second shot. So grabbing the barrel, and just holding it, will get you shot assuming the guy had it cocked before sticking you up. I would give them what they wanted, but if you want to defend, I would say block the gun out of the way and continue from there.

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#101387 - 02/22/05 03:20 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree if its not a life and death situation give them what they want, don't loose your life for money of possesions.

If a guy points a gun at my head and he talking and gettng closer as he talking, it gives you time to work. The safest move is to trap the hand while 1st get out of the line of fire, I like to evading the barelle my hands to deflect and trap using my body as fulcrum to break the elbow, sticky leg his feet. And follow with a back elbow to the throat, temple or face. Gun back into him.

Grabbing the slide and sliding it back out of battery will jam a auto and stop it from firing. Regradless of if it has a round in chamber.

With a revolver grabbing the cyclinder of a double action or placing the thumb behind the trigger or hammer. Will stop it from firing, This is a time consuming and hard to do effort, with a moving thrashing assailant.
But its all a crap shot in this situation.
The safest things is to get out of the line of fire and hurt him bad.

If the person walks up and shoots, your only hope is to floor roll into him, striking his grion/vitals and raising up striking his elbow with your shoulder snapping his elbow. This is a move based on luck and being in the right place if he misses something vital. But its better then bending over kissing you A$$ good bye.

There is no counter for this if he just walks up and shoots you with a gun. If he misses you got a chance, if your eyes are still open.

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#101388 - 02/22/05 07:36 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Excellent post MAgon and a point well made, but I wonder how your friend would have felt had he chose not to act at all and still got hurt or shot?

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#101389 - 02/22/05 07:57 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It might not be a bad idea to actually fire some of these guns a few times before developing any set-in-stone tactics for grabbing them.

Good post MAGon.

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#101390 - 02/22/05 08:38 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys actually need to study how guns work in order to come up with practical defenses.
First of all there is no need to count the shots.
Secondly if it is a semi-auto and you grip the barrel firmly and dont allow the slide to move back, only 1 round comes out, but the casing is still in the slide, the attacker has to pull the slide back and eject the casing in order to continue firing; if you choose you can let go of the weapon and use both hands to subdue the enemy.
Thirdly it doesn't matter if you move the gun inside or outside, just as long as it is the shortest distance off your body.
If you are looking for practical weapon disarms, either email me with the subject 'disarms' or look for krav maga instructors or videos at www.kravmaga.com or if your looking for military fighting skills and disarms go look at www.trsdirect.com the prices are kinda high, but the information is well worth it.

[This message has been edited by BlackNinja15 (edited 02-22-2005).]

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#101391 - 02/23/05 02:41 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Excellent post MAgon and a point well made, but I wonder how your friend would have felt had he chose not to act at all and still got hurt or shot? [/QUOTE]

Chen: The point I try to make in these types of post isn't that inaction is always the best recourse. The point I try to make is that CONSIDERED ACTION is the way to go. You and I have agreed on that in other posts inre the actual fight. But I think it's self evident that it must also come into play before you start to rock 'n roll. E.g.: A gunman is standing 15 feet away, already has a bead on you and is giving you his undivided attention. If you attack, the likeliest consequence is that you'll get shot. If you don't react at that point, then you're at least not giving him an excuse. Perhaps just taking your money will suffice and he'll leave, with the only wound to you being your ego. However, given the same set of circumstances and the guy already has my money (Or car, whatever), if that hammer starts moving back, you bet I'm going to try something. Now the circumstances have changed to that the likelier result of not attacking is getting shot for sure, while if I attack there's the one in a million lucky chance of doing something useful. As always, it boils down to taking your best read of a situation and acting accordingly.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChooseURbattles:
It might not be a bad idea to actually fire some of these guns a few times before developing any set-in-stone tactics for grabbing them.

Good post MAGon.
[/QUOTE]

Y'know, I remember an article on gun disarms some years ago in which the author tabulated the number of attempts tried by LEOs vs. the ones that were succesful. One of the byproducts of his research was that the majority of succesful disarms were done by officers with a strong background in weapons, while those with a MA background did poorly.
In fact, the disarm which I very hastily described in my original post depends on the second hand (The one that actually performs the disarm) smacking/ pushing/ twisting the pistol with a semi- cupped hand (Fingers inboard and open, index knuckle ideally up against the trigger guard). The fingers actually close around the gun only when the assailants trigger finger is wrenched away from the trigger. If the gun is a semi- auto and the gunman fires with the defenders' fingers wrapped around the slide, suffice it to say that the recoiling slide will DEFINITELY break the grip quite painfully (To say nothing of the damage the front sight would very likely do to the fingers). Even grabbing a revolver barrel in this way and having it fired could very well result in the grip being broken by flinching from the recoil and the heat (Put your hand up against a just- fired revolver barrel, you'll see what I mean).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlackNinja15:
...if it is a semi-auto and you grip the barrel firmly and dont allow the slide to move back, only 1 round comes out, but the casing is still in the slide, the attacker has to pull the slide back and eject the casing in order to continue firing; if you choose you can let go of the weapon and use both hands to subdue the enemy...[/QUOTE]

From your writing the above, I can see you've never tried to hold onto the slide of a semi- auto as it fires. PLEASE DON'T TRY IT!!!!!



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 02-23-2005).]

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#101392 - 02/23/05 02:52 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by coxne:
Someone mentioned grabbing the slide saying that it won't let the gun recoil and therefor you won't get shot. The recoil happens after the gun is shot. On semi autos, a bullet is in the chamber, and the hammer is cocked. Pulling the trigger will drop the hammer causing it to fire. After it shoots, the slide goes back ejecting the spent cartride, loads another, and pulls the hammer back for a second shot. So grabbing the barrel, and just holding it, will get you shot assuming the guy had it cocked before sticking you up. I would give them what they wanted, but if you want to defend, I would say block the gun out of the way and continue from there. [/QUOTE]

Don't forget that in double- action semi- autos the hammer doesn't need to be cocked in order to fire. If there's a round in the chamber, these guns WILL FIRE with the hammer down. Pulling the trigger cocks and drops the hammer the same as on a revolver.

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#101393 - 02/23/05 03:46 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


obviously you dont know what you are talking about MAgon, try it, it doesnt matter if the hammer is cocked or not, gripping the slide firmly will allow the bullet in the chamber to fire, but that is it. if you dont believe me go to a shooting range, get a semi auto and hold the barrel firmly and pull the trigger, the bullet will exit, but the casing wont eject.
I don't know about you but I have used this defense in real life, it actually works

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#101394 - 02/23/05 06:25 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with some of you and disagree with others.

Trying to duplicate this scenario in training is a very difficult task. Working a "move" and going for speed is only half of the equation. The reality is that no matter what your technical training, the adrenalin dump and fear that you will experience at that moment will affect your decision to act or not.

Getting your hands burned or pinched by the slide of a Glock (which has an internal hammer) should be the least of your worries.

I have worked this many times with sim weapons. Sometimes you get bit. You make up your mind that you are going to deal with it and not stop fighting.

In the ISR Matrix, they have what I believe is one of the best Counter-Gun programs available. It is restricted to LEO however.

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#101395 - 02/23/05 10:05 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I take it not many of you have actually had a hold of the Braael while a gun is being fired. When a gun is fired the bullet travels at such a high rate of speed that it produces heat. A lot of heat. So much so that as the bullet is traveling down the barrel, the barrel swells. Now if you want to do something real dumb, go grab your revolver, step outside and firmly grip the barrel as some of you have suggested and pull the trigger. Dont shoot yourself just shoot in some open area. You will feel the swell, it will hurt immensely and you will drop the gun. Everytime.

The disired effect isnt to fight over the weapon. You waste a lot of energy trying to control and grapple someone. not to mention that the longer the weapon is in either combatants hand, the more chance there is for severe injury or worse. Knock the weapon to the side. Even if it doesnt leave the opponents hand it should no longer be a threat. Since you have knocked the gun away your main focus is the enemy. Rush him fast and hard and dont stop. The opponents focus at this moment isnt on defence but on putting the gun back in front of him in a postion to hurt you. This is his mistake and your one key to victory. Obviously range makes a difference. Me myself, Id never go for it past five feet away. Unless I had reason to believe that I could do it successfully or I thought it was my only hope to survive. Five feet or shorter, Im going for it everytime. Ive successfully defended myself from weapons four times. Once against a gun, twice against a knife and once against a golf club. I never had too bad of injuries that I could walk away and I feel like the biggest reason that is is because I view the weapon as the opponents weakness. I address it once, hard, then I dont worry about it again. Might not work for everyone but worked for me.

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#101396 - 02/23/05 10:18 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I take it not many of you have actually had a hold of the Braael while a gun is being fired. When a gun is fired the bullet travels at such a high rate of speed that it produces heat. A lot of heat. So much so that as the bullet is traveling down the barrel, the barrel swells. Now if you want to do something real dumb, go grab your revolver, step outside and firmly grip the barrel as some of you have suggested and pull the trigger. Dont shoot yourself just shoot in some open area. You will feel the swell, it will hurt immensely and you will drop the gun. Everytime.

The disired effect isnt to fight over the weapon. You waste a lot of energy trying to control and grapple someone. not to mention that the longer the weapon is in either combatants hand, the more chance there is for severe injury or worse. Knock the weapon to the side. Even if it doesnt leave the opponents hand it should no longer be a threat. Since you have knocked the gun away your main focus is the enemy. Rush him fast and hard and dont stop. The opponents focus at this moment isnt on defence but on putting the gun back in front of him in a postion to hurt you. This is his mistake and your one key to victory. Obviously range makes a difference. Me myself, Id never go for it past five feet away. Unless I had reason to believe that I could do it successfully or I thought it was my only hope to survive. Five feet or shorter, Im going for it everytime. Ive successfully defended myself from weapons four times. Once against a gun, twice against a knife and once against a golf club. I never had too bad of injuries that I could walk away and I feel like the biggest reason that is is because I view the weapon as the opponents weakness. I address it once, hard, then I dont worry about it again. Might not work for everyone but worked for me.
[/QUOTE]

I know it get's hot, but not that hot. Besides if it's a ceramic gun (the kind that you can get through a detector) than I think, and that is think since I don't have conclusive proof yet, that it won't get as hot.

But besides that, I know alot about weapons like that, I even took apart an M4 once and put it back together. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some legistics to take care of.

Oh, does anyone know where I can LEGALLY purchase an M4A2, preferably in HA, CA, AL, or AZ?

[This message has been edited by Oozuru (edited 02-23-2005).]

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#101397 - 02/24/05 09:42 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all, why the bejeezus do you wish to purchase an m4? The big military battle rifles? Believe me, no matter how much you practice on the real thing, you'll never learn to disarm an opponent wielding one of those [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

And if I may ask, why is everyone throwing the gun away? If I get the angle correct and force the wrist lock, he's giving me that damned gun or sacrificing his wrist bones. And I will continue to twist LONG after I hear the snap if he doesnt release.

I'd do everything in my power not to neutralize the gun, but to obtain it. Just my opinion.

- Op. Skinny Ninja

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#101398 - 02/24/05 09:52 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Don't forget that in double- action semi- autos the hammer doesn't need to be cocked in order to fire. If there's a round in the chamber, these guns WILL FIRE with the hammer down. Pulling the trigger cocks and drops the hammer the same as on a revolver.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, wasn't thinking of those... but my point still stands [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#101399 - 02/24/05 04:01 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OperationSkinnyNinja:
First of all, why the bejeezus do you wish to purchase an m4? The big military battle rifles? Believe me, no matter how much you practice on the real thing, you'll never learn to disarm an opponent wielding one of those [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

And if I may ask, why is everyone throwing the gun away? If I get the angle correct and force the wrist lock, he's giving me that damned gun or sacrificing his wrist bones. And I will continue to twist LONG after I hear the snap if he doesnt release.

I'd do everything in my power not to neutralize the gun, but to obtain it. Just my opinion.

- Op. Skinny Ninja
[/QUOTE]

Here is a few good reasons to dump the gun.
1) Its someone elses. It could work, it could explode in your hand. It could already be a dirty gun thats killed someone or their family and now your prints are on it.

2) Cops. If the cops get called about a fight with a gun involved and they walk up with the one guy screaming about his broke arm and you clinching his gun, who do you think is going to go to jail? You are. Either because you are going to appear to be the aggreesor or because you simply went too far in defending yourself and you are going to jail for felony assault.

3)He might have another gun. You going to get into a shootout? Going to do it with an unfimiliar weapon that may or may not work properly?

4)By picking up the gun your weapons have been reduced because your focus has changed from protecting yourself to holding this weapon and possibly using it.

Its just not smart. Leave the gun, hurt the bad guy, and run like hell.

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#101400 - 02/24/05 04:57 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


IF you run, don't forget to pull out the clip and drop it half way through on the way to the police. I mean no one wants to hear that a member here died, right, a gun without ammunition is useless.

[This message has been edited by Oozuru (edited 02-24-2005).]

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#101401 - 02/24/05 10:08 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A gun without ammo is a hammer. It is still a weapon.

Losing focus of the gun is a huge training mistake in my opinion. I say "training" because I believe honestly, no matter how much you try to ignore the gun, tunnel vision will draw you to it and you'll end up fighting over it anyway. Since that is what I believe will happen (based on many reported live incidents and countless unrehearsed training exercises), I choose to base my tactics on that perspective of reality.

But that's me.

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#101402 - 02/25/05 01:20 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
A gun without ammo is a hammer. It is still a weapon.

Losing focus of the gun is a huge training mistake in my opinion. I say "training" because I believe honestly, no matter how much you try to ignore the gun, tunnel vision will draw you to it and you'll end up fighting over it anyway. Since that is what I believe will happen (based on many reported live incidents and countless unrehearsed training exercises), I choose to base my tactics on that perspective of reality.

But that's me.

[/QUOTE]

Its interesting how the weapon, once introduced, becomes the main focus by both participants. The unarmed man, often times focuses on the weapon and the guy holding the weapon usually only attacks with the hand holding the weapon, disregarding defence as well.

The way I look at it is this: If Im pummeling your face, the last thing you are going to be able to do is use that weapon. Lets be honest here, if you pull a weapon on me, Im trying to kill you. With every hit Im trying to take your life because you are attempting to take mine and you have a tool to do so. Theres no way the man with the weapon is going to hold me off with one hand while trying to attack me with a weapon in his other hand. His only hope is that he has adequate distance. Once attacked, if the attack is pressed the fight is over. Hes limited in his actions unless he drops the gun. If he does that he still has to recover the offensive. Not going to be an easy task while trying to keep someone from destroying you.

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#101403 - 02/25/05 11:11 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


We are going to have to disagree on this one.

I simply think it is rather presumptious to believe that you can always seize the initiative and attack using a cognitive plan to ignore the weapon. There are too many factors to ignore.

While this plan may work sometimes, it's consistent success and reliability for people of diffent abilities and attributes is questionable.

Most people are not always dialed in or prepared for confrontation. That is something that should be factored into training.

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#101404 - 02/25/05 12:49 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Not too many things work for the masses. Especially in extreme situations like this one. What would you have the student do; focus solely on the weapon? Why? To me this strategy leaves you lacking in defence. Lets not forget that the whole time you are trying to grab twist and jerk this weapon that there is a resisting opponent. Most likely he's going to try and knock you around while you are busy scrambling for the weapon. Thats not good enough for me. I want it over quickly. Address the weapon, but do it hard and fast and forget it. You arent fighting the weapon you are fighting the man holding the weapon. A lot of people forget that.

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#101405 - 02/25/05 01:52 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I have to side with Fletch on this one. I previously mentioned an article I read some years ago on gun disarms, and that one of the findings was that LEOs with a weapons background were FAR more likely to achieve the disarm successfully than those with a MA background. The reason was PRECISELY what you guys are debating about: The LEOs with a weapons background concentrated on controlling and disabling the GUN (Web of thumb between hammer and firing pin, hand grasping revolver cylinder and preventing it to rotate and the hammer to rise, etc.). LEOs with MA backgrounds tended to concentrate on attacking the opponent, with less than desirable results mostly (Sorry, can't remember author, title, magazine or even the date. Take it for what it's worth).
For those people that hit like a mule's kick, ignoring the gun after getting out of the line of fire might very well work. For the rest of us, though...

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#101406 - 02/26/05 12:18 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Two opposing viewpoints. No problem.

For the record, our counter-gun training goes a lot deeper than just focusing on and scrambling for the gun. There is a very specific and common dynamic that we address that is core to the program.

Suffice it to say, I believe that anyone practicing counter-gun tactics (I hate the term disarms) should be very familiar with how a handgun works. I do not however, believe that everyone must know guns inside and out and vigerously practice blocking the hammer with the webbing of their fingers in order to be able to respond effectively.

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#101407 - 02/26/05 04:31 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with Fletch, you should know the basics of the gun, but dont have to be an expert on it.
Also, the training that tells you to but the web of the hand to keep the hammer from striking the firing pin is not very good, it is hard trying to get it in their in the first place.
Lastly, after moving the gun out of the line of fire, divert your attention to the opponent and strike targets that will override his consciece thought. (i.e. eyes, throat, groin). This will distract him from taking the weapon away

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#101408 - 02/27/05 11:18 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I think that if you can get the gun quickly thats great. But the last thing I want is to take too long with it and get stabbed by the other hand. Id say it mostly depends on your opponent.

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#101409 - 02/28/05 06:54 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Id say it mostly depends on your opponent. [/QUOTE]

As it always does. Wise words.

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#101410 - 03/01/05 06:31 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I skipped through a good portion of this post, but got the main points and just wanted to add my two cents if they haven't been added already.

First off, statistics tell us that if somebody has pulled a gun on you chances are they are going to use it. Secondly, you really do have to know how guns work to be able to disarm them correctly.

I know of two steps for a >more< succesful avoidance, unfortunately I've only had them spoken to me.
1)The most important part is knowing which way the gun recoils when fired, which is all dependant on the hand the gun is being fired from. When you fire a gun it recoils back at an angle generally towards the face.
2)Now that you've assessed which way the gun recoils, you move in the opposite direction(down at an angle most likely) and push the gun in the direction of the recoil.

but then you have to disarm or immobilize and that's dangerous.

Rule of thumb, best way to stay out of danger is to avoid dangerous situations.

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#101411 - 03/05/05 09:31 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can't believe how much hollywood-ized misinformation is on this thread.

1) An auto can and will fire even if you hold the slide or prevent it from recoiling [think--where does the recoil come from?]

2) The slide will move back even if you hold it; you'll just cut some skin off your hand and get a burn for your trouble.

3) Most 9mm, sold before and after the [US AW] ban, are 17 round [or 15, or various other--in other words, double-stacked magazines].

4) If you are being shot at, you will not be able to count. Higher brain functions like counting don't work. You'll think 10 shots is 100. That only works in the movies.

5) Most people intending to kill you would not do it with a gun to your head. [But then again I'm not SURE I'd want to risk it, and being close is a good oppty to disarm--depends on the situation I suppose. If it's a stickup, the guy is masked, and doesn't seem like he's on crack, I'd PROBABLY just try to remain calm.]

6) Handgun engagements are FAR less lethal than TV/movies make them out to be. First inescapable fact: handguns are INCREDIBLY innacurate. On average you've only got a few measly inches of rifling to stabilize the bullet. That's why the targets are so close at the pistol range [the real ones that is], and the patterns so bad. Secondly, since the barrel is so short, it is extremely hard to aim under duress. On TV cops always use the "stiff-arm" approach. That can work for LEOs who get alot of range time. But when the adrenaline pumps, those dots just DO NOT line up. And the barrel is so short, it's hard to tell which way it's pointing! Sounds crazy, but that's the way it works when the adrenaline is pumping. Long rifles are different--you have a looong barrel which, by itself, is a good clue as to where it's pointing even without the sights. Your best bet with a handgun, esp for defense, is to practice, practice, practice shooting it by feel, from a high-hip. That is shooting from pure muscle memory--much less accurate than aiming in a controlled environment, but far more accurate for most average people with the adrenaline pumping. Good luck finding a range that will let you do that though. Third, most handgun engagements happen at a distance of less than 10 feet (!). Fourth, anything over 20 feet: RUN! Preferably around a corner or in a random pattern. The odds of them hitting you are SLIM TO NONE. It's not at all like the movies. It's rather pathetic, actually, if you see some police videos--head-on engagements at 20 feet where both clips are EMPTIED, and neither cop nor crook gets hit. All yet more reasons that handguns make a very poor choice for home defense (a 5.56 carbine or better yet a baseball bat are far more effective and safe choices--[safe because you have better aim, and 9mm penetrates through 3 layers of sheetrock, while NATO 5.56 stops at the first).

7) TRY to notice (through the adrenaline) if the guy has his finger on the trigger. If he does, he's an amatuer with a gun, and dangerous. If it's to the side, and his other actions support the notion, then he's probably a pro and knows the consequences of murder, and just wants the money.

Oh man I could go on but I gotta go.

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#101412 - 03/09/05 12:24 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


A guy asked about this on another BBS Forum on Jan.16.2004 and I stated what is posted below based off how my mindset actually is, and having had a gun pulled on me, not once, but TWICE in my life. It is a sobering and scared shitless position to be in especially when you're not expecting it. But if it happens to you and you aren't dead... you should rethink your place in this world and devise something you'd do if the situation ever occurs again. Thus what's below should not be tried by anyone, it's just my mindset and how I live and would ultimately be willing to die if neccessary. It has nothing to do with being a bad ass or such bullshit. Of course having become a "Born Again" Christian since my teenage years, I'd probably try to witness to them first and not antagonize someone, but (Lord forgive me) It's already 2nd nature to react in a life or death situation.
**********************

The original question asked on the other board so long ago:

>>> If I held a gun to your head, what would you do? Would you beg for your pitiful life? Cry? Tell me a sad story about your wife and kids? Offer me a blowjob? Accept it, cause' no one gets away from me? Just Defend the bullet and then stick me in the face? <<<

My answer then and now:
-----------------------

In that situation you'd (or whomever) would have literally 8 seconds in which to pull the trigger because if you didn't I'd take if from you and not mince words like in the movies and simply shoot you with your own gun. *I've had guns pulled on me twice in my life, one was a gang initiation thing that backfired on them. I don't like ppl pointing guns at me, let alone sticking one to my head. Cause like I told them punk bitches in '96: "If you're gonna put the hammer down, then do it, otherwise don't waste my ****in' time. Get it!"

...needless to say, I'm still here after that note. Looking back on it it wasn't a good idea to antagonize them, but something about someone pulling a gun on me insults me. *It's like the person is too much of a punk to FIGHT me with bare knuckles or knives or something where the odds are evened out a bit.

There's one of three ways this plays out in the real world and the 8 seconds thing is something personal, not some rule of thumb. *You see if someone gets the drop on you and manages to put a gun to your head, if they ain't pulling the trigger and are talkin' trash or demanding your money... they're hoping for you to freak out at the fact they have a gun.

Other than being caught off guard, what's the big deal? So the dipshit has a gun to your head, being more realistic than 8 seconds... within 4 to 5 (seconds are damned quick remember that) of the gun being put to your head you move, they'll be a slight hesitation of a milli second... the gun will go off but not in your brain. You then have milli seconds to either trounce into the gunman or go for the gun. You have a better chance of being shot while struggling for it than just letting some bastid try to play GOD with you. I mean **** THAT you know?

That's if the gun is put to the side of your head.

Now if it's straight on, you have an even better chance, because the person had to get right onto you to even have the gun at nose length. This would be you staring down the barell. *This was the cholo gang banger incident I was talking about. ---Now in this situation, it's more of the same. Within seconds you had better know what you're going to do, because the gunmen is still playing a psychological game with you... you have to be resolved to the fact you're more than likely going to die, but might as well make a break for it.

Within those few nano seconds, with your left hand coming up from the inside, knock the gun pointing at you to your right (you should as the person first sticks the gun in your face, bring both hand up to chest level so it's not an obvious move. To the gunmen it looks like your in total submission.... it's better to have the palms facing outward anyhow) AND MOVE your head to the left, AGAIN the gun will go off... and you won't probably hear out of that ear for awhile, from there it's your show man. *I would not advise the **** talking I did... I was pissed off that afternoon and some cholos drove up and put a gun in my face and told me I was going to die. Standing there in my ROTC uniform, I just stared at the guy and said what I already stated I said... then slightly pushed myself forward and dared the guy to shoot me, my forehead only inches from the barrell. The guy freaked out and went onto someone that his gang initiation would feel more rewarded on, because the punk wanted me to be afraid... only I was annoyed. I had homework to do, and no GF then, and wasn't getting any poon... so I had reached the point of "Whatever!" ---Again, this isn't the course to take.

The last thing would be if someone (or a pair) is going to whack you and it's nighttime... more than likey you have no way out, but it doesn't hurt to ask for a cigarette as a last request. When the guy goes to light the cigarette (unless they're pros) he'll be looking into the flame (both if there are a pair)... you're eyes are closed momentarily. At that moment, move. A stay shot could hit you, but probably not... they'll be seeing the damned flame from the match or lighter for at least ten seconds in total darkness, giving you time to high tail it, or kill the guy or the pair right then and their.

So in reality, it's not that difficult. A person who intends to kill someone doesn't talk **** , they KILL the person. Thus a person who pulls a gun and doesn't use it immediately is looking to **** with you psychologically. It's a power trip, the second you take that feeling of Power from them, and literally send it back to them... chances are you've got them six feet under instead or died trying. You didn't punk out and beg for your life. If you're a saved Chrisitan this is even easier, because you know where you're going when you die, a better place... so you just do your thang and what happens happens is all. There really isn't some big thing behind it. I could tell you how to appear to dodge bullets, but you didn't ask me that, so I won't get into it... though THAT to is tricky, and is you as the intended victim using counter psychological warfare on the asshole with the gun.


[This message has been edited by Thunder Fist (edited 03-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Thunder Fist (edited 03-09-2005).]

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#101413 - 03/10/05 12:19 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're not going to grab the slide and stop it from recoiling, your not going to count the shots or be able to discern the best course of action from whether or not their finger is on the trigger or pointed forward.
Trying to block the hammer with the web of your hand--dont be stupid. You'll get killed thinking that this is legitimate strategy.

Handguns are not at all innacurate. And they are plenty lethal. Anyone who says otherwise proves that they know nothing about handguns.
Even if they were lacking in accuracy, the distance that we are speaking of renders that inacuracy moot. While a shot from some pistols will likely not kill you instantly ---depending on where the bullet hits--- the heavier calibers will knock the hell out of you, possibly even spin you around. Which pretty much ensures a second shot, which will have the same result, thus ensuring a third shot, so on and so forth, until you're dead. Even where this is not the case, the body goes into shock fairly quickly. If you get shot, you WILL go into shock, very soon, once that happens you can forget about being an effective fighter.

If someone wants to kill you they wont give you a cigarette before hand. Would you?
If you were going to kill someone would you really give two horse's sh++s about their "last request"? No.
Thats hollywood.
Killing does not care. Killing has no room for such trivialities.

Just because someone is robbing you does not at all mean that they are morons. Nor should it be taken as proof that they are "untrained" in the use of firearms.
Training after all can be simple experience.

A lot of toy stores still carry those little plastic guns which shoot tiny pellets or disks. Get one. Hell get a squirt gun. Point it at your training partner. Do this in such a way as to simulate whatever scenario you want to train for. If its a robbery, then just ROB your friend. Rob his ass. If he gives you a hard time, shoot him. Shoot him and keep shooting him.
Once you put yourself in the shooter's perspective, youre going to see just how full of **** people are when they talk about their super ninja tactics for taking guns away from people ready to shoot. Once someone gets a bead on you, if they really know what theyre doing, thats it. There is virtually nothing that you can do (other than comply) that will not get you shot. The only chance that you have is that they make some kind of tactical mistake, which as i implied a moment ago, they will not do if they know what they are doing.

About someone who's serious about killing you--if theyre smart then theyll kill you before you have anything to say. If they are not so smart then they may want to gloat or laugh for a minute...put you at their mercy and ridcule you while you're there--but mostly thats TV. If they want to kill you because theyre in a rage they sure as he11 arent going to waste time laughing, and if they come at you in a premeditated or proffesional manner, again they are not likely to waste time laughing, theyre just going to kill you.

About someone that simply wants to rob you, well again i would say that its entirely situational. ASSUMING that it is just one person--ASSUMING that they are using a handgun, (not in comparison, a mac 10 or sawed off shotgun) and ASSUMING that they are not too smart about it, what I would emphasize is that IF you get a chance, thats all you will get, A chance. One chance. Thats it. Whatever you're going to do, it better work, and it better work the first time, and damn quick to boot, because if it doesnt you WILL get shot.

Its a lot easier to shoot someone thats trying to take a gun away from you than it is to take a gun away from someone that is trying to shoot you. All you have to do to confirm this is get a "gun" and a training partner. Test it out for yourself, from the shooter's perspective.
If i offer anything in the way of tactics, it would be to control the muzzle until the shooter is no longer able to pull the trigger. (Pretty vauge isnt it?) Whether you knock him out or outright kill him, whether you take the gun from his hand or overpower him into submission, whatever, you cannot allow the weapon to remain fixed on you. Thats pretty much all that i can say. Your strategy would be more realistic if it incorporates the likelyhood that the gun WILL go off during the struggle for control. Guns being what they are, when they discharge they tend to do a lot of damage to whatever is in front of them, so make sure that YOU are not among the list of things in front of the weapon when it fires.
Thats it. Sorry for the long post.
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#101414 - 03/11/05 05:16 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Here is a few good reasons to dump the gun.
1) Its someone elses. It could work, it could explode in your hand. It could already be a dirty gun thats killed someone or their family and now your prints are on it.

2) Cops. If the cops get called about a fight with a gun involved and they walk up with the one guy screaming about his broke arm and you clinching his gun, who do you think is going to go to jail? You are. Either because you are going to appear to be the aggreesor or because you simply went too far in defending yourself and you are going to jail for felony assault.

3)He might have another gun. You going to get into a shootout? Going to do it with an unfimiliar weapon that may or may not work properly?

4)By picking up the gun your weapons have been reduced because your focus has changed from protecting yourself to holding this weapon and possibly using it.

Im new to here and the only reason im replying is because i see a trend developing here than people are not seeing. I have to disagree with most of what you just said. You are right about the gun not working and running, but seeing as how i am in law enforcement(i wont disclose where) i can tell you this: If someone has a gun pointed at you and you Feel as though you are going to be seriously injured or killed, you can act with reasonable and necessary force to overcome the situation. Which means breaking the guys arm is acceptable. now if you secure the weapon, run. because killing an unarmed man now becomes murder. On the other hand if you are feeling as though he is going to keep attacking you and possibly take the weapon back and use it, then you are legally acting appropriatly. Just make sure you dont act out of Malice or Punishment, that is not your function. Defending yourself is the only thing you want to do. In my field of work the only necessary force to a threat on life and limb is lethal force.

P.S take a hint from the signature

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#101415 - 03/11/05 05:50 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Well, some good advice. Here in my area though, the cops are rather trigger happy. Especially if some passer by calls them about two guys fighting over a gun. Im not going to touch it after disarming my opponent. Id rather keep him from grabbing it again, that way i dont accidently get capped.

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#101416 - 03/13/05 07:45 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


My best friend ask my sensei this same question and he said "It really just depends on the scenario. Are you up against a wall? If so, stay calm, if he wants your money give it to him. You can always get more money, you only get one life. If he doesn't want money and instead wants your life try to disarm as best you can." To this my friend said, "And if your not against a wall." Sensei said, "Duck and run in zig-zag patterns."

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#101417 - 03/19/05 12:44 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If the gun's right up on your head i would knock his hand to the side and duck at the same time incase it goes off. Keep your hand on his wrist and try to twist it and mabey punch him a few times and eventualy he'll drop the gun. If the gun ends up in your hands THROW IT as hard and as far as possible and if it ends up on the ground kick it a safe distance from the both of you.

Personaly if someone pulled a gun on me i would be PISSED so once the gun's out of reach do your best to kick the hell out of him and teach him a lesson. Do whatever you have to do beat him down and keep him down. Once he's down or gone or whatever go get the gun and take it to a body of water or a nearby dumpster to dispose of it.

It's a risky thing to do (disarming) But most people wouldn't expect you because most people would be scared stiff. So you can ethier:

1. Grab his wrist and pull it away from your head and duck and take your elbow to his ribcage repededley. Once he's in even a little bit of pain do whatever you have to (Snap his wrist, Bite Break hit pull ect...) To get the gun out of his hands.

2. Shuv the hand with the gun aside and hold it away from you and punch as hard as possible in the face then disarm gun.

These are the ways i personaly would do it. They are very risky but atleast you'd die (or be severley injured and if its a headshot most likely paralyzed) Trying.

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#101418 - 03/23/05 06:24 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


its obvious you guys have never been in a situation with a gun pointed at you. If you practice first with a rubber gun, then a squirt gun, then a plastic bb airsoft gun, to a paintball gun, to a metal bb airsoft gun, and if you can a gun with simunition, the actual thing isn't really that scary. Actually go to a range, get a semi-auto handgun grab the barrel tight and pull the trigger, if u do it right u wont be pinched by the slide and the heat of the gun wont be unbearably painful. and only one bullet will discharge. I have used these techniques more than once with a real gun pointed at me, these moves actual work. most of which i got from krav maga
try these moves then critique them, otherwise be quite so u dont get people killed

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#101419 - 03/23/05 08:51 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


While the aforemented methods of grabbing the slide sound good in reason, the blow-back pressure of a fired bullet is stronger than anyone's grip strength. My father was a cop for over 15 years, and I believe his system is the best I've heard so far.
1. If the gun is pointed at your head for longer that 2 seconds, their goal is not to kill you, but to obtain something. Give it to them.
2. If the man pointing the gun at your head is unstable, which may be the case, remind him of his family, religion, and community. NEVER mention jail time.
3. If it becomes a worst-case senario, knock the gun away with as fast and little motion possible, and try for the knock-out. Do not grapple for the gun, it wastes time and leaves you exposed to any back-up weapon (knives especially).
I hope no one will ever have to use this information, but if in this situation, try to follow the above mentioned guidelines.

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#101420 - 03/23/05 10:12 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


While it is easy to say "don't grapple for the gun", I believe that it is inevitable that people will. So, instead of pretending I won't grapple for it, I choose to improve my skills at what I think I will do rather than what someone tells me I shouldn't.

I have trained many LEO and CO and we always work at controling the gun hand and being aware of the muzzle direction.

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#101421 - 03/24/05 06:43 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlackNinja15:
its obvious you guys have never been in a situation with a gun pointed at you. If you practice first with a rubber gun, then a squirt gun, then a plastic bb airsoft gun, to a paintball gun, to a metal bb airsoft gun, and if you can a gun with simunition, the actual thing isn't really that scary. Actually go to a range, get a semi-auto handgun grab the barrel tight and pull the trigger, if u do it right u wont be pinched by the slide and the heat of the gun wont be unbearably painful. and only one bullet will discharge. I have used these techniques more than once with a real gun pointed at me, these moves actual work. most of which i got from krav maga
try these moves then critique them, otherwise be quite so u dont get people killed
[/QUOTE]

*Sigh* [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

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#101422 - 03/24/05 12:49 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Blackninja wrote
its obvious you guys have never been in a situation with a gun pointed at you. If you practice first with a rubber gun, then a squirt gun, then a plastic bb airsoft gun, to a paintball gun, to a metal bb airsoft gun, and if you can a gun with simunition, the actual thing isn't really that scary. Actually go to a range, get a semi-auto handgun grab the barrel tight and pull the trigger, if u do it right u wont be pinched by the slide and the heat of the gun wont be unbearably painful. and only one bullet will discharge. I have used these techniques more than once with a real gun pointed at me, these moves actual work. most of which i got from krav maga try these moves then critique them, otherwise be quite so u dont get people killed. Magon signed

I don't understand why the disbelife or thoughts that this is improbable.
Police dept and Military train for this event.

The incident happens how many of you guys have had a gun pulled on you or shot at. The times that I have as a 16-35yr old I escaped by running or staying still. Weather it been a Cop or assailant. Several time after training I have been close enough to think about what I might do if he gets a little closer. And as a Patrolmen I've arm barred a gun out a thugs hand coming out toward my partner.

The point I'm trying to make is if you train for these situations on both sides of the gun, with various scenarios you know what the possibilities are.

I've shot at moving people and been shot at while moving, with a handgun its not easy but its possible to hit a moving target in the open just like you can when shooting a fast moving Jack rabbit.

At close range you don't need to line up the sights and you can't move fast enough once the rounds fired to get out the way. Most gun experts teach and train 2 ways at mid-long range they use the sights but 15-3 yards
in you just point the barrel using the front sight or what they call instinct shooting.

By the way by training with airsoft guns you can see that taking the slide out of chamber will move the hammer so it can't make contact the firing pin, just like it does the real gun and it can't be fired unless its rechambered. This move along with a eye strike/groin slap/tip of the chin/throat strike could subdue the assailant. The safest and fastest is to redirect the gun while you move out of the line of fire.

As for having the gun when the cops arrive. With the slide open, magazine on the ground, the gun on the ground in infront of you or at your heel, your hands up in the air or against the wall, visible won't get you shot? The main thing is you don't want the assailant gaining access to the gun before the cops are in control of the scene.

My point is if you never train for these situation you won't know how to respond.

Be advised that the Air Soft handguns bbs only go 240-320fps which can help at close range and sting leaving whelps inside 10 yards. But out past 15-20yards you can acutally move out of the bbs way. Still if you don't have cover you will get shot. It is the imo one of the best nonlethal way to train gun counters, blanks have killed upclose. If you mess up you are hit and it hurts, wear goggles. These things will go all the way thru lt. cardboards boxes or pop cans.

A lot of these defense are probable, you won't really know if it worked until you lived through it.

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#101423 - 03/24/05 10:32 PM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
Anonymous
Unregistered


If a person points a gun at your head and pauses it means that person is not entirely set on killing you which gives you a chance to discuss or divert their intentions.

Careful negotiations are the best way to deal with a hostile situation weather you are actually negotiating or causing a distraction the best thing to do is talk to them.

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#101424 - 03/25/05 09:46 AM Re: Someone points a gun at your head, what do you do?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neko456:
Blackninja wrote
its obvious you guys have never been in a situation with a gun pointed at you. If you practice first with a rubber gun, then a squirt gun, then a plastic bb airsoft gun, to a paintball gun, to a metal bb airsoft gun, and if you can a gun with simunition, the actual thing isn't really that scary. Actually go to a range, get a semi-auto handgun grab the barrel tight and pull the trigger, if u do it right u wont be pinched by the slide and the heat of the gun wont be unbearably painful. and only one bullet will discharge. I have used these techniques more than once with a real gun pointed at me, these moves actual work. most of which i got from krav maga try these moves then critique them, otherwise be quite so u dont get people killed. Magon sighed

I don't understand why the disbelife or thoughts that this is improbable.
Police dept and Military train for this event.
[/QUOTE]

The central idea is sound. The tone of the delivery could use some work, IMO.

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