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#101029 - 01/18/05 09:18 AM knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was just interested what are your opinions on carrying knives as a form of self defense on the streets or in school(if u are my age)? I am asking this because i recently encountered a fight and one of the guys pulled out a knife and tried to stab at the other guy but he just knocked it out of the guys hand and got him in a head lock.personally i carry one everywhere(if i can) simply for self defense and security but do u think that a knife is really effective on the streets? or just a burden seeing as it can easily be taken from u and used on u or it can just escalate the enemies anger and pursuade him to pull out something more dangerous? anything thoughts, comments or personal experiences would be appreciated.

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#101030 - 01/18/05 11:03 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


meweiss182,

Here is some advice that should be taken to heart from a man that knows more than a little something about the issue, Mr James Keating.
Please read this link: http://www.themartialist.com/0503/darkside.htm

Joel

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#101031 - 01/18/05 03:11 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
I agree with the previously offered article. In the first place, I don't enjoy knocking someone out with my training when I need to defend myself, so much less would I seek to kill him. Knives are too dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. It can easily be used against you or accidentally kill you if you happen to roll over it in the struggling and wrestling for it.

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#101032 - 01/18/05 07:43 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


There is I suppose a difference between 'stopping' a fight and 'ending' one.

The former when no one is hurt and the loser didn't 'lose'.

The latter is when the fight 'ends' with someone hurt or killed and the winner didn't 'win'

I was in a rough neighbourhood school in the 50s / 60s where gansters roamed the streets freely. So I carried a knife to school (hidden of course) Later, afraid of being found out by teachers, I switched to carrying one of those old fashioned metallic can openers. At least I could say something reasonable, if caught, to excuse my self.

Even now, out of old habits, I still hang a small knife in my keychain.

Knives will never, can never be socially banned. They were in used since the stone-age. If you carry a knife for a while, you feel attached to it (like the old samurais and their katanas) you feel 'safe', like carrying a religious talisman.

I really have no answer to the problem. The primordial male hunter/killer instinct is and will always be with us.

Will my telling everyone not to carry a knife helps?

With due respect to Mr. Keating, knives have no eyes, but seems to have a life and destiny all of its own. In a dark way, they comfortably fits and forms a part of and a material extension of the users' hand. I have a small collection of knives and other short fighting weapons, like the Malay miniature fighting axe.

No matter how well trained a person is, once a knife is used, destiny takes over.

In south-east asia, fighting krisses and other personal fighting weapons are never un-sheathed unless a fight is imminent. It is believed that the spirit dwelling within the weapon, once let loose, will want a bloody fulfillment of its natural tendency; you can't blame the weapon, it is just doing what it is actually made for and meant to do.

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#101033 - 01/18/05 10:59 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i saw a fight about a month ago where 2 guys were fighting and 1 of the guys pulled out a knife and the other ran away (a mate of mine)he thought he was the greatest until my mate came back with a steal pole and said if u wanna use weapons then so will i, he swung the pole twice at his head missing it by inches, the hit would have killed the guy easily. the other guy ran off and that was that. the point is, dont pull the **** out unless your prepared to go all the way

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#101034 - 01/19/05 03:56 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i agree with u darko if i was ever put into a situation that was immenent(sp?) the knife would be my last resort, im not an agressive guy and have been in 2 fights in my life because i was forced to. i would only pull a knife out if i feared for my life or serious injury and evenc onsidering that i would only pull it out if i thought my opponent didnt have a weapon or if he does has already exposed it so i know wat im against. but i agree it is something definetly saved for the last resort

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#101035 - 01/19/05 12:12 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think pepper spray is probably a better and more effective option.

There is a company called ASP which makes a Kubotan with Pepper spray capabilty (the can is inside!)
It s called an ASP defender.
Super Idea. Blind'em then Bash,em!
And dont get charged with murder!

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#101036 - 01/19/05 12:32 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe carry a knife is ok for civil/mechanic uses and even selfdefense (snakes and things) around the campsite, fishing or around home, but carry the same knife to school now days will get you locked up and kicked out of school for the year or more.

Using a knife to defense against a human is not school yard play, it's escalating the stakes to the use of a weapon or deadly force (the term use in law enforcement).

There are only a few incidents were a knife counter attack should be used, only when your life is threaten and you are in range of your intented target.

Maybe when a knife is drawn or when another weapon is attempted to be deployed. Still getting something (tbl/chair/garbage can top & a throwing brick) between you and the knife is the ideal defense.

Never draw a knife outside 15 yards and come toward an opponent. The ole addage of never bring a stick/knife to a gun fight, is as valid as ever, its a sound thought.

If you pull a knife you have Ok'd the use of a gun and vice versa, pending the range.

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 01-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 01-19-2005).]

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#101037 - 01/29/05 10:16 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont need any weapon i Just beat the sh*t out of them

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#101038 - 01/30/05 02:02 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Salutations!

Well meweiss182, I will assume you are somewhat young so I'll be blunt. Unless you are prepared to accept the concequences of using a blade on someone, don't. Killing, somebody with a knife is not pretty. The images will haunt you your whole life. It is a very personal way to kill. Not to mention the legal implications of a society that sees the knife as the weapon of thugs and scoundrels. You have a 99% chance of loosing in court if you use a knife. There are many technical questions that will be raised concerning the cuts used and how they where used, how you carried the knife, why, etc. For those of us, ex-military or MAist, you are considered an expert and thus liable for anything that happens to the other guy; even if he was a mugger with a gun.

Now, the knife is a formidable weapon, with proper training. It is one of the fastest and more concealable. Easy to deploy and use. Many times by the time we see the knife you are alredy cut. It is very difficult to dissarm a trained knife wielder.

I, myself, carry a knife on me at all times along with my gun. I use the knife more for it applications as a tool than a weapon. Now meweiss182, you should concern yourself with other matters and leave the knives for the great outdoors.

Yours in the Spirit of the Warrior-Scholar,

Carlos Roman, H.I. American Kenpo Karate Studios
Orlando, FL


[This message has been edited by whitedragon_48 (edited 01-30-2005).]

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#101039 - 01/30/05 06:02 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with you completely^^^, i also have never used for anything but its "outdoor" and working capabilities and i also agree that is puts u at a liability if u do use in the streets which is why when ever i carry it i will never use it unless my life is threatened, thx for all the responses guys

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#101040 - 02/07/05 09:19 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with those who have posted stating that a kinfe will likely put you into a dangerous situation, both physically and legally. Depending on your local laws, I belive that a Kubotan, with appropriate training and practice is a much more useful tool for self defense if staying out of major trouble with the law, and your school administration is also desired. Once you have a grasp on the use of the Kubotan, you can replace it with a Mini Mag, or a thick shafted steel pen, both of which you can carry with no questions asked, and can be hidden in plain sight. Knowing how to use one effectively opens up all sorts of options for improvised replacements as the situation allows. Like all self defence skills however, whichever tool you choose to use, it will be of little to no use to you if you don't have proper training and practice with it regularly. In an ideal world, you should also learn a Martial Art that provides a strong basis in self defense as well, so if you become disarmed you can still effectively defend yourself (especially useful when the pointy end of that knife you carried to protect yourself is now pointing at your parts).

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#101041 - 02/08/05 05:51 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


First off, I think that if you don't feel confident about being able to defend yourself without a knife, why would you even think about carrying one? It would certainly be taken from you. And surely, if you cannot defend yourself in an unarmed fight, you won't win a knife fight, but by drawing yours you've ensured you're going to get stabbed.

The logic that follows is that there is no reason to carry a knife.

I live in a bad neighbourhood and worry about my personal safety at times, and it's possible that somebody maybe might pull a gun on me. Not very likely, but of course it's possible. So should I carry a gun about everywhere I go? Well, I don't think so, you can't live your life in fear like that. Somebody might pull a knife on you, but you're better off thinking of ways to avoid that ever happening, to stay out of fights if possible, keep away from crazy people. If someone does pull a knife on you and you don't think you can handle it, its still possible you can avoid being stabbed. Maybe it will cost you some pride or the contents of your wallet, really a small price to pay compared with living in fear.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that people who carry knives end up getting stabbed (or injured by other potentially lethal weapons) much more often than those who don't.

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#101042 - 02/15/05 04:02 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't like carrying knives, i find them the pu$$y option, so i dont. Its simple, if someone pulls a knife on you then just leave it its not worth getting stabbed, but if they dont, then fight them if they threaten you.
(Why is it everyone has to carry knives now? a little while ago you could pick a fight with anyone and it wouldnt go beyond kicks and punches, but now you cant tell wether they have a weapon or not and you have to be careful).

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#101043 - 02/15/05 03:10 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


well it depends on what kinda people hangs around the street your walking on and what time it is. if its a very dangerous street filled with mugglers then you should definately carry some sort of self defence weapon like a knife. don't act like the mucho muscle man and use your fist to defend yourself, because 90% of the time your muggle will probably be armed with a knife or stick. anyways you always have the option to run, but if you get surounded by like 4 people then having a knife is better then nothing.

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#101044 - 02/20/05 01:37 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:" In South East Asia......will want a bloody fulfillment of its natural tendency"

Indeed.
In the wild province of India thats my home people regularly carry machetes,swords and knives on their person as a matter of tradition and defence.If needed they use it too.However it is never unsheated in anger except to strike--a weapon unsheated in anger but unquenched with blood is believed to take it from its bearer later through accidents etc.
Also war swords were never sharpened except when a confrontation is planned/imminent as a sharpened sword becomes thirsty for blood and in peacetime may egg on the bearer to strike an otherwise nonthreatening opponent.

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#101045 - 02/20/05 02:20 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well carrying a knife should be carried only if you live in a rough neighberhood or your in danger. I personally don't carry a knife but I find a pair of kali sticks better. Or one is just as good..........

*Inuyasha*

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#101046 - 02/20/05 08:59 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wouldn't carry a knife because I'd never ever want to use a knife. If I ever got into a fight, the temptation would always be there to stab him, and that's a can of worms that I would never ever want to deal with, as well as I just am not cruel enough to stab someone.

That being said, if you're going to ever take out a knife, make sure you're going to use it. If someone ever pulls a knife on me, I'm not going to stop until he's unconscious or damn well near dead...a knife is a sign of murder in my eyes, and if you're going to try and kill me, I'll do it right back.

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#101047 - 02/21/05 01:08 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


this(all of the above) is exactly why I carry a tazer [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ZAP!!!

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#101048 - 03/02/05 03:27 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is an interesting topic.

I carry a blackpowder gun everywhere I go. It holds 6 shots. You can buy them at any gunstore right over the counter.

They are handy, but it just takes too long to measure and load the powder, and ram the lead ball into place.

But once all that is done, woo! Look out!

Unless it rains....

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#101049 - 03/05/05 02:44 PM Re: knives on the streets?
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
The Blade
As previously posted the knife is a tool & a weapon in which it easily extends from our hand. Dagas/Kris/Karambit all knives which are NOT meant to be tools, as their primary purpose were to kill. As one decides to carry or not, one must understand that a knifes history will impact a judges decision after the altercation.

If one decides to carry, buy a blade that has NO negative history. This may help you in protecting yourself, after the ordeal. Furthermore, the name of the blade: some knives on the market have COOl DARK names. Avoid these as well, since their implications may very well sway the judge to place behind bars. Basically, one tries to avoid being suspected of carrying a conceled weapon.

The art of Kali: a blade art, which can be varry vicious can also be safer. One the student gathers trust & respect for the blade, and this prevents premature deployment of the weapon. Also the theory of de fanging the snake may very well be usefull here. Many MA concentrate on killing with a blade, in Kali A principle of Taking the Fangs away from the snake could help eliminate fatal thrusts & rather disarm the enemy.

I say enemy, since one should never unsheath the 'sword' unless the intent is to kill. This principle is used by true warriors only,as we draw only when we are forced to kill.

No games here: Carry with respect, as a warrior true to the calling of steel. Don't carry, and become a political genious, able to talk yourself out of trouble. The choice is yours....

Kobun

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#101050 - 03/10/05 07:55 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


nothing personal but i hate people that think their thug and cool and can protect themselves just for weilding a knife. real people on the street could jsut as easily use that knife on you. so if u plan on pulling a knifeo n someone, be ready to get yr knife takin away from ya and get stabed.

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#101051 - 03/12/05 01:01 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tw1st3d:
nothing personal but i hate people that think their thug and cool and can protect themselves just for weilding a knife. real people on the street could jsut as easily use that knife on you. so if u plan on pulling a knifeo n someone, be ready to get yr knife takin away from ya and get stabed.[/QUOTE]

Salutations!

This is exactly the kind of ignorance thats out there about knife fighting. A trained individual is almost impossible to disarm. Would you care to grab a razor sharp piece of steel moving at 120mph? How about trying to grapple a knife wielder that keep cutting you in unpredictible patterns? Oh and lets not forget the oh-so-infamous karambit on which the conventional disarms don't work! If what you say was true, then why even have guns then? They are easier to disarm than a knife. The only people that get disarmed are idiots and wannabes who don't know how to wield the weapon. Even in the untrained hands, a knife is risky to take away because even if you manage to block/parry/evade a cut, it will just come back at you from another angle. Besides, if you are a real "cool thug" why carry a knife you should have a gun, they are not that hard to get on the streets; besides, only an idiot brings a knife to a gun fight right?. Only school kids carry a knife to become cool "wannabe gangsta".

Yours in the Spirit of the Warrior-Scholar,

Carlos M. Roman, H.I. American Kenpo Karate Studios
Orlando, FL

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#101052 - 03/13/05 02:17 PM Re: knives on the streets?
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
General Ideas:

Concerning the KNIFE, used as a weapon the knife is dangerous. It has many ways of ending a life. A Monkey could kill you with a knife, as for a professional which body part would one lose first.

The FBI has a 22 Feet safe zone when dealing with a knife.
The US army changed to a more powerful gun, because of the Kris sword.
Edged weapons account for many Law enforcement deaths.
Never forget that the scew driver has killed many of these Law enforcement officers.

Remember that Knives are carried by both professionals & amateurs. The problem still remains that BOTH can KILL with this simple TOOL turned into a WEAPON.

Kobun

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#101053 - 03/13/05 02:36 PM Re: knives on the streets?
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
The only time I carry a knife is when we are camping, I have a nice SOG and those pesky squirrels better watch out! Remember the movie Crocadile Dundee when the kid tried to rob him in the park with a small knife and he puller that huge Bowie knife out and said, "now that's a knife". [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#101054 - 03/19/05 01:43 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


^^^ reminds me of the time I was on a bus and a group of 6 guys kept telling me and my friend to move out of their way so they can see the signs. We went along the first 2 times but then it came apparent they were ****ing with us. Well long story short he pulled out a 3 inch folder and i revealed the KABAR (7"blade, 12"overall) that I was wearing inverted under my shoulder. He just sat down and then they all got off next stop.

Anyways, I carry a knife with me everywhere I go. Ive been robbed several times and a weapon was always used so that "living your life in fear" line doesnt apply. Bottomline is in a life threatening situation a knife can deal more damage in less time that your hands. This is very important when the odds are against you in size or numbers.

However I do not suggest that everyone carry's a knife. If you dont know how to use it, and keep it then itll be turned against you fast. And whoever mentioned the kerambit, gets a big thumbs up from me. I love those things. I would carry one more often if it wasnt awkward. Once you hold one its liek an extention of your body and there is almost no removing it.

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#101055 - 03/19/05 06:44 PM Re: knives on the streets?
loki Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 844
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bklynRx7:
^^^ reminds me of the time I was on a bus and a group of 6 guys kept telling me and my friend to move out of their way so they can see the signs. We went along the first 2 times but then it came apparent they were ****ing with us. Well long story short he pulled out a 3 inch folder and i revealed the KABAR (7"blade, 12"overall) that I was wearing inverted under my shoulder. He just sat down and then they all got off next stop.

Anyways, I carry a knife with me everywhere I go. Ive been robbed several times and a weapon was always used so that "living your life in fear" line doesnt apply. Bottomline is in a life threatening situation a knife can deal more damage in less time that your hands. This is very important when the odds are against you in size or numbers.

However I do not suggest that everyone carry's a knife. If you dont know how to use it, and keep it then itll be turned against you fast. And whoever mentioned the kerambit, gets a big thumbs up from me. I love those things. I would carry one more often if it wasnt awkward. Once you hold one its liek an extention of your body and there is almost no removing it.
[/QUOTE]

The Karambit was designed to mimick a Tigers Claw, thus it not only cuts it brings one down as it cuts.
Kobun

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#101056 - 03/22/05 04:05 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


The only time i carry a knife is when i go to a dangerous area or when i go on a trip across country (alot of freaks out there) I carry a S.W.A.T knife with a blade of about 6-7 inches (yes it does fold and it fits in my pocket). Otherwise NO. I never carry a knife otherwise as it can be used against me.

Knives are no play thing. They are prolly the biggest street killing weapon next to guns. So my advice, If someone pulls a knife on you. Disarm him (you can take a cut or 2 to the arm trust me) And throw the knife as far as possible. Then beat the hell out of him for pulling it on you.

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#101057 - 03/22/05 10:21 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuscleGuyFlip:
The only time i carry a knife is when i go to a dangerous area or when i go on a trip across country (alot of freaks out there) I carry a S.W.A.T knife with a blade of about 6-7 inches (yes it does fold and it fits in my pocket). Otherwise NO. I never carry a knife otherwise as it can be used against me.

Knives are no play thing. They are prolly the biggest street killing weapon next to guns. So my advice, If someone pulls a knife on you. Disarm him (you can take a cut or 2 to the arm trust me) And throw the knife as far as possible. Then beat the hell out of him for pulling it on you.
[/QUOTE]

Salutations!

How can it be used against you? Do you know what you are doing? If not, why even carry? Or do you mean it can be used against you in a court of law? Please clarify this Sir.

Please, unless you are fighting a sleep-deprived-drunken-chimp, do not try to disarm a knife! As Muscle said, you might get cut once or twice... well children, THATS ALL IT TAKES!!! One cut, even a small one on the right place can cause you to bleed to death or if lucky, sever nerves and tendons maiming you for life. Take two cuts? Incredibly brave or incredibly stupid. That is the kind of thinking I see at my knife semminars... a big no-no.

If you see a knife (hoping you see it before is too late), RUN (assuming you don't have a gun on which case you are justified to use it)! If you can't run then keep him at a distance and protect any vulnerable parts if possible, try using long-range weapons, i.e, legs or sticks. If you try to disarm a TRAINED person, you will get carved up before you know what happened.

Yours in the Spirit of the Warrior-Scholar,

Carlos M. Roman H.I., American Kenpo Karate Studios
Orlando, FL

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#101058 - 03/22/05 10:36 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont believe that people should ever carry knives on them, even for self-defense. There are many reasons for this:

In most places its illegal to carry knives in public.

If you accidently kill someone in self-defense with a knife. The proescuation could turn the tables on you, by stating that you were carrying a knife and could have been the aggressor.

You could be overpowered and also stabbed.

If you are really angry at someone and you have a knife in your hand or pocket, then you may do somthing that you'll regret, even unintentionally.

So, overall you dont gain anything by carrying a knife. In the matter for self-defense, well either avoid the fight all together, or if someone pulls out a knife on you the run for it. There is no shame in running.

[This message has been edited by yesisbui (edited 03-22-2005).]

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#101059 - 03/26/05 11:35 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i carry a knife in my sock razor sharp and ready to use if the time comes where my life is in danger.it is a liabilitie though so unless you have a history of gangmembers picking on you i would not reccomend carrying one

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#101060 - 03/29/05 10:07 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Carrying a knife is of course risky business. It does not matter if you know how to use one or not. Legally you can face problems if caught with one and if you are caught using one in a fight.

First of all there are rarely knife fights. Sorry, I never seen a "WEST SIDE STORY" scenario. There are usually knife assisted assinations or one sided slashing affairs.

As a user you better make sure you are in the right legally before you pull it out and cut someone. You are best to let everyone know within earshot you do not want any trouble and clearly label yourself as teh defender.

Secondly, if you are ging to use your knife never let your opponent know you have it until he is cut. The severity of the cut is determined by the situation.

In a combat scenario unless you know how to use a knife you can cut someone and their rage will not let them feel the initial cut if the cut was not effective. And if they pull a gun in response you better be quick and really efficient.

There were some pretty good comments on this post but some guys on other forums I have seen are caught in a martial arts fantasy world.

Knife training is as essential in today's society as it was in Fuedal Japan, Ancient China, Indonesia, Okinowa, Midevil Europe, Africa and Colonial America.

As a martial artist in today's ultra violent world yet so-called civilized world you have guys who would not hesitate to carve you up or shoot you in a second. IF you are not training with a knife, if you do not know how a real knife attack will feel or how a knifer moves you are not practicing martial ways you are indeeding practicing "ARTS". As one of my fellow senseis states "you want art -get a brush"

Some people are so wrapped up in the non-weapon carry martial artist bag that they dismiss knife carrying as being beneath being a real martial artist. I think they are sadly mistaken.

As the kempo instructor ably stated he carries a knife and a gun. His mentality is of a man who studies a martial way if I may be so bold. I believe in the option of weapons first and hands second if the situations calls for it. It is better to have a knife (or gun) and not need it then to need it and not have it.

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#101061 - 03/29/05 11:01 PM Re: knives on the streets?
Shadowfax Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Mason City, IA
The main problem I see with people carrying knives for defense on the street is that it seems 99% of them have no CLUE what to do with a knife beyond flicking it out to impress their friends. If you pull a knife on me, and you have no training in what to do with it, there's a very good chance I'll be going home with a new knife by the time the fight's over. The most dangerous part about any weapon is the risk that you'll lose it to the guy you're fighting and give him even more of an advantage. If you aren't VERY well trained in how to use a weapon, don't carry the weapon.

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#101062 - 03/30/05 06:55 AM Re: knives on the streets?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by hakim82:
As the kempo instructor ably stated he carries a knife and a gun. His mentality is of a man who studies a martial way if I may be so bold. I believe in the option of weapons first and hands second if the situations calls for it. It is better to have a knife (or gun) and not need it then to need it and not have it.

[/QUOTE]

Salutations!

I agree with the above. I say Martial Science or Way.

Yours in the Spirit of the Warrior-Scholar,

Carlos M. Roman H.I., American Kenpo Karate Studios
Orlando, FL

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