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#100853 - 01/14/05 09:28 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I am not saying that boxing is bad for street combat. Some boxers are excellent fighters, you are the one who brought up the boxers with hand damage, I explained it. That's all. The fact is that if you don't close your fist and you strike with it you will do damage, unless you specifically condition it for this (without gloves and wraps).
This came up because of me saying that the majority of guys can throw a mediocre punch even without training. I apologize for the generalization. I should have said that I have, in my life, met very few heterosexual males, over the age of 14, who could not, if provoked, close their fist and deliver it to someones face hard enough for it to hurt. Along with that, as we are talking about 30 days training, it makes no difference what kind of damage it does to the hand, in a self defense situation with 30 days training you aren't going to fix his fist formation anyway, you said this yourself. So we should assume that he is able to hit harder than a 12 year old girl and teach him something of a little more consequence. Punching is the least important part of self defense. Blocking and stepping are far more important. If this individual has never been hit he is gonna go down the first time he is swung at, then it makes no difference if he can punch or not.
The fact is that you are fighting biology, 80% of people who are attacked freeze. So unless you can overcome this you might as well teach him how to play chess.

#100854 - 01/15/05 02:49 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.

I would teach them kali......


#100855 - 01/17/05 10:46 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5843
Loc: USA

Gave it my best shot.

Can't argue with a guy that can't grasp what he himself posts.

Perhaps you could look up that "80 percent of people freeze" source and let us know where it actually came from???????

#100856 - 01/17/05 11:03 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Ed Glasheen Offline

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
It is very common for a person to freeze, "deer in the headlight sydrome", when attacked. I do not know about percentages however.

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 01-17-2005).]

#100857 - 01/17/05 01:12 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5843
Loc: USA

Yeah, its common.

Thing is I don't recall any published stats on it.

None that I can trust anyway.

Reaper however seems to have access to all sort of info the rest of don't.

-Specific stats on "freezing"--(he claims 80%)

-The "majority" of folks can throw a "mediocore" punch "without training"

(what good is a "mediocre punch" and how would you meausre it?)

-"punching is the least important part of self defense... blocking and stepping are"

-"If you have never been hit he is gonna go down the first time he is swung at"

(weird--I did not "go down" in my first punch up--maybe it was beacuse the punch was "medicore?")

What he has is alot of opinion, perhaps backed up by persoanl experience, although I tend to doubt it.

Since he seems unaware of pro boxers that have broken their hands in streetfights--at least he claims he did not know it.

I was as nice as I could be about his personal experience perhaps not being the very limits of experience.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-17-2005).]

#100858 - 01/17/05 04:21 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Punching the least important part of self defense? Id say that award goes to blocking.

#100859 - 01/18/05 06:25 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Ok, personal experience.
Been doing martial arts for 20 years, almost 21, started when I was 8. Bounced in bars for 2 years. Was a barfly for about years. Finishing a Bsc in Psychology (that's where my 80% stat comes from). I teach sparring in a karate school, and am proud to say that I have experience in approximately 20 styles of Ma. I have been a grappler, a stand up fighter, and an aikidoza. I have been jumped by 2 guys, hit with weapons, kicked with cowboy boots, and had my elbow hyperextended (in a dojo). I have been swung at too many times to count, but I have never had to swing back,ever. Can I throw a punch, better than mediocre. Do I know anyone who can't, yes but there are either girls, or gay. I said I have never met anyone who broke their hand in a street fight, but have seen teeth pushed through. I know that some boxers do not close their hands properly, and it does make sense that this would be a feasible reason for them to break their hands, this and the fact that they hit hard and fast. When I think of self defense I don't mean fighting, no "ok me and you by the swing set after school" crap. I mean some guy is in front of you and he is swinging. No warning, no reason. Just violence. I have faced this several times, and I have walked away.
Is punching important, if what you are trying to do is fight with your agressor, yes. If you are trying to end the confrontation, no. It is more important that you don't get hit, and that you know where and when to hit to soften for a takedown, throw, or lock. Punching is beginner stuff, any monkey can punch.

#100860 - 01/18/05 10:59 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Is punching a basic skill? Sure. Does that make it the least important? No. The basics were all anyone really needed to know to successfully defend themselves. Everything else is supplement. Eventually you must subdue the do this you must either strike until their is an injury to the opponent or you must lock him up and break bones but most likely you will strike to open up that opportunity. Therefore punching plays a huge role. You arent going to do that blocking and evading. that only works for so long and lets the opponent continue his attack.

#100861 - 01/19/05 09:24 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5843
Loc: USA

See, when I asked for the source on the 80% I was asking for the specific place you got it.

As in the textbook you took it from, what page, the author of the text, the year it was published--that kind of thing.

Kinda need more than just your "say so" here.

"20 styles of martial arts" AT 21 YEARS OF AGE?

(13 years of training and you covered "20" styles--thats assumeing tha I even count the training you got before you were 16--which I don't.)

And you were a"barfly" as well

(what that has to do with MA escapes me)

"Either girls or gay"

(in ref to inability to throw a good punch)

Look reaper--clear that I am not getting thu here.

Also clear that a guy with your vast experience and all those styles that you know does not need any help from me.

Good luck--chances are your going to need it.


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-19-2005).]

#100862 - 01/19/05 06:17 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Apparently you can't do math very well, I am 29. I have done styles simultaneously, like right now I do karate, kung fu, and tai chi. I did not say that I did all these styles to mastery, some of them I did for only a couple classes before I dismissed the instructor as an idiot, like the guy who hyperextended my elbow in his dojo. Punches are a basic for fighting, not self defense, aikido (aikiki) doesn't even really teach punching, neither does greco roman wrestling, neither does ninjitsu at least not a normal punch, neither does bisset juijitsu. Not to say that they don't have any strikes, but not punches. I don't do any punches in tai chi, or in kung fu (five animal), I do lots of strikes, but no punches.
Chen zen: to quote Anko Itosu, "Never attack a lone adversary. If one meets a villain or a ruffian one should not use tode but simply parry and step aside."
If I am going to strike, which I have said before " I have never had to" am going to use an open handed strike. The hand is not designed for punching.
cxt: I am not going to bother arguing about who can or cannot punch. I can, and I can't remember not being able to. As I stated above, I don't know any guys who can't.
Being a barfly has a huge amount to do with it. Most of the confrontations that I have been in have been in bars. Whether it be because someone thought that I was drunk, thought it would be fun to try me because I had a rep, or they thought I was someone else, or I was hitting on their girlfriend.
Whatever the case may be, alcohol breeds agression. Surely even you can't argue with this. I do have references for this.
Oh and the textbook that you were looking for is "Abnormal Psychology, Canadian Edition"
Authors Divison, Neale, Blankstein, and Flett.
John Wiley & Sons Canada, Ltd. 2002
ISBN 0-471-64631-8
And my professors name was Madelaine Ingimundson, give her a call I am sure she would love to hear from you.
She was a sweet lady gave me an A.

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