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#100843 - 01/10/05 06:14 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Ed Glasheen Offline

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Two possiblities,

1. American College student traveling to Greece.

2. American business man traveling to Mexico city.


#100844 - 01/11/05 02:17 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.

Hi Butterfly and Still Wadowoman,

Whilst working as a Doorman, 10 years ago, I realised that a lot of the TKD techniques that I had learnt had their limitations in the confines of a night club foyet. I began using techniques that were more effective and carried less risk in such close quarters, such as Headbutts, Elbows, Knees, Power Slaps, etc. I also used the guidance from more experienced Doormen as to which techniques worked and those that didnít. I was also involved in a number of street fights at that time, which is a different story altogether!

During the time I worked as a Doorman I was competing at National level in TKD sparring and also on the open circuit against Kickboxers, so I was reluctant to leave traditional ITF TKD. I continued training unrealistic (for me) techniques so that I was still able to compete.

Then the opportunity came to run a traditional ITF TKD club with my two brothers, who were also competing at National level. (At one point all three of us held the British TKD Championship title for Light, Middle (me) and Heavy weight.)
Then the politics started. Our organisation wanted us to charge our students more for training, which we rebelled against by ignoring their demands. Not long after we were asked to comply or leave, so one by one, we left the organisation.

I then went into Muay Thai/Kickboxing, for 2 years, and learnt the use and effectiveness of knees, elbows and low kicks.

After that I wanted my own club to teach competitive sparring, patterns, demolition & destruction from traditional TKD and RBSD based on my experiences whilst working as a Doorman, and from taking specific techniques from TKD, Muay Thai and Judo (which I studied for 4 years before TKD).

As the syllabus was now much larger, because of the additional RBSD techniques and ways of training, I had to cut down the syllabus by taking out the least important (my view) parts of the traditional TKD syllabus.

The 1, 2 and 3 step semi-free sparring was the first to go as I do not believe that semi-free sparring is of any benefit at all. The main reason for this is that most of the attacks are performed by the attacker stepping forward with the right leg whilst punching with the right arm.
When do you ever see anyone, outside formal training, step forward and punch with the same side, ie, right leg, right arm?
And as you know, semi-free sparring is too static, no one ever moves or behaves that way in a fight, so why train like it.
I also know for a fact that one of the biggest ITF TKD organisations added semi-free sparring No.s 7, 8, 9 & 10 in a very dubious way. Three high ranking officials met in a pub (bar) for lunch and devised the last four moves because they felt that the higher grades needed something more to do!!!

Another very important thing I learnt very quickly, from working as a Doorman and also from the fights I was in, is that formal blocking doesnít work in a fight situation. If you are quick enough, you can parry, jam or crash your opponents techniques, but formal blocking simply doesnít work. Formal blocking just commits one of your attacking tools to do something which is inevitably happens far too late, giving your opponent another free go, in my opinion.

Lastly, I donít teach Korean terminology. The main reason for learning Korean when training in traditional TKD was so that we could travel anywhere in the world and still be able to train as they too used Korean terminology for traditional TKD. As only 45% of our syllabus is TKD is decided against using Korean Terminology, as again, it had no function and was watering down the syllabus.

Again, these are my views based on my experience. I am where I am, and I am who I am, today because of Traditional Martial Arts. But, I am not a traditionalist by nature, and my Academy reflects that. I am lucky to have such loyal students who are, and will, take many podium places, and more importantly, they will be able to defend themselves when required. All my students have come through word-of-mouth and stay because they like it, which is important to me.

Each to their own - Horses for courses - What ever floatís ya boat. [IMG][/IMG]

Take care,


My apologies to Ed for detracting from your original question, sorry. [IMG][/IMG]

#100845 - 01/11/05 08:01 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA


1-Get as much info as possible as to local crime--what is going down--what types of crimes happen and most importantly WHERE.

Get as much info as possible as to the places to avoid---commen sense is the best self defense there is.

These days--I would avoid making it clear as to my nationality.

In Mexico I would make real sure that I had a trustworthy local contact to take me to the places I needed to go.

Someone that knew the local scene and can be trusted to look after me, maybe the company I was there to do business with.

In terms of actual self defense.

-Awarness training--so they don't just "zone out" walking down the street like folks often do.

-Work on close in fighting drills--if your attacked its probably going to happen fast and at close range.

-Work on some drills using HEAVY gear (bulletman etc) to get the student used to as much contact as you can.

-Heavybag work--simple, strightforeward set of punchs and kicks--probably spend some time on striking techniques with the elbows and knees.

-Probabably try to get them in some better shape--30 days is enough to build some strength and endurance--if nothing else being in better shape tends to make folks less of a target.

-Might be helpful to take a crash course on the local language.
Some Greek or some Spanish is better than nothing--might be helpful to be able to call for help or the cops.

Off the top of my head thats where I would start.

I'll give it some thought and be more specifc later.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-11-2005).]

#100846 - 01/12/05 01:12 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Just to clarify on the whole broken knuckle thing. I have seen more barfights than I can count, most of them involving individuals with no experience. The only person who got hurt was the one who got hit. The only hand damage I have ever seen was done to a fist by a tooth. And that was nasty. I don't know where you grew up, but all the guys that I have ever met could throw a punch, maybe that's just cause I grew up in the country, these metro sexuals, I don't know.

#100847 - 01/12/05 03:03 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

With all respect, its pretty common info that several PROFESSIONAL BOXERS have broken their hands in streetfights.

Not that big a leap to consider that non-pros might have a simlar problem.

#100848 - 01/13/05 09:20 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Also fairly common knowledge that boxers hit harder than most of the untrained people that you are so quick to point out can't punch. Also many boxers don't close their hands fully in gloves because this can increase punching speed, wraps can make for lazy hands. This habit can be carried over into street fights.
I am not saying that no one has ever broken their knuckles in a street fight, but I have never seen it, or personally heard of it. Lot's of stories, no facts.
I threw my first punch at the age of ten, bare knuckled, knocked the guy out (he was ten too no great acheivement), my hand was fine. Still is, 19 years later.

#100849 - 01/13/05 09:28 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
there you will find a form of hand to hand combat that can be taught to profieciency quickly.

#100850 - 01/14/05 06:44 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.

newbie here, I was actually going to mention Krav-maga. I have 2 relevant experiences to this thread. when I was in the ISraeli military, I went through a 6 week course on close quarter combat that was based on krav-maga and handgun work. we were all very fit going in, but the training was very good and in depth and made serious fighters out of us. krav-maga is a very easy system to teach people in a short time.

also, I had to teach a group of students, just out of high school, in 2 weeks, to be able to guard themselvs in a school that was on the border, and considered dangerous. this was taking people who had no experience what so ever and getting them prepared to face possible attacks. it can be done, altough granted they were going to be armed with rifles.

I would do it this way

physical - 3 times a week large muscle groups lifting - squats, lats, bench presses. 3 times core excersizes. 5 times a week 40 minutes hike, 10 minutes sprints, 20 minutes streatching. one day a week a 6 hour forces march.

training - every day one hour standing drill on basic low kicks (chambered and sweeping), boxing style punches, circular blocks, elbow and knee moves. one hour face to face with parget pads, practicing the same. one hour standing takedowns and simple judo style work. one hour floor work. one hour mixed sparing, in a ring, with the whole class watching, throwing in odd numbers of people, and mixing the pairs up. 2 hours weapons training - one hour batton, half an hour koboton, half an hour 4 foot staff (jo).

mental - 2 hour a day frontal lectures in anatamy, tactics and stratagy. 2 hours every day movies on boxing and hand to hand fighting. 2 hours every day agression games - ruby, tug of war, red rover, dodge ball.

1 day a week spend on self defence on the road, driving and getting in and our of cars.

after 2 weeks, the weapons part change to improvised weapons - work on all sorts of improvised weapons - chairs, bottles, keys, and how to use them.

work on identifying when you are followed, verbal confrontation, running away from cars, using terain in your favor, hiding from people chasing you.

if allowed, I would also spent a lot of time on tear gas and tactical battons, unless the clients will be going to places where these are not allowed.

#100851 - 01/14/05 06:59 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.

I would put the guy in front of a TV screen for days on end with violent films - so as to reduce hesitation to use violence, Then give him some cokaine, magic mushrooms and an arsenal of weapons - tell him its a game to see how many guys he can kill then he's ready for the battlefield. [IMG][/IMG] lol

#100852 - 01/14/05 04:22 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Im surprisd that you "really" have "never heard of it."

The news reports were pretty thorough.

Plus what your basially saying is that a Pro has more trouble than some guy on the street in punching?

That makes little sense, plus it kinda flys in the face of most threads on the board as to the value of boxing training for self defense.

The more training you have, the stronger you get, the harder you punch the MORE in danger you will be?

So we should train for weak punchs??

Not trying to bag on you--honestly.

Just suggesting that YOUR personal experience may not the only experiences out there.

For example--only seen 1 guy every break his hands.

BUT, as you mentioned I have seen MANY people cut there hands up REALLY badly hitting folks in the mouth.

-Couple of really nasty infections-think in terms blood poisoning.

-Couple of badly jacked up knuckles. Knuckle is still mishapen and does not work right--5 years later

-Some major damage to the tendons (not sure if that is the correct term for the connective tissue of the hand)

But I am only going by what I have seen--your experience seems to be very different.

You have to go with what effects you.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-14-2005).]

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