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#100833 - 01/09/05 11:21 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


ReaperBlack.

That is just the point. Most hetero male, without at least 3-4 months of proper training, cannot throw even a mediocre punch, be it a MA or a boxing punch. Actually 3 months, in my view, is stretching it a bit. Without conditioning, he will break his wrist or knuckle, if he is lucky enough to actually get a solid punch in. And the person he is punching does NOT want just his wallet.

Look at any average male with say a green belt in a striking art. How many months to get a green belt? This green belt don't have to bother with other things like ground work, grappling, knife-disarm, firearms, throws, break-falls (in case he is thrown) For those who have done judo, aikido etc. how long does it take to learn to break a fall?

Timing and rhythm. We all know that intercepting any attack (especially edged weapons) is all about timing and rhythm. To get enough confidence to dislodge a knife from an attacker in a "hostile country" within a week? Mr. Gaffer?

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#100834 - 01/09/05 11:59 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Maybe enter them into a few NHB fights?? (Or something else that they know they gonna get hurt) no point learning all this Technique when if they get Adrenaline dump they gonna freeze anyway??. Best way to learn to fight is to get into them??. Cuase there they learning Stress management, they learning what fights are really like. And they practising there Technique??. Lets face it 30 days to Practise taking a gun or knife off someone is highly unlikly?, Why dont u get them Bullet Proof vests??. Stun Gun??, Get them all Walking Sticks or Umbrella's ?? A Weapon will help alot considering they dont know what they doing getting close to a knife atleast with a walking stick you can crack the dude from a distance and with the VEST it will stop blade attacks aswell (If aimed at the vest).

Who are there enemies?? you need to teach them like Gaffer said they need to know what the enemy are so they can notice them. Also get them to Wear BOOTS??. Ball box. Anything to give them leverage cuase. if they fighting skillfull people they've trained for a few years. YOU GONNA HAVE TO TEACH THEM TO FIGHT NOT TRAIN IN A MARTIAL ART. And I would only focus on Krava Maga type techniques. You want to them to be Agreesive as they can end get the fight over as quick as they can. Even teach them to walk with a Magazine rolled up good for Jabbing into the gut or face. Walk with a Leather jacket over the arm I read a article one to wrap your jacket around you arm so if he has a knife you can kinda use that as a shield to get in close. Or a Brief Case it can be used to deflect strikes. Put a brick in their bag when they going "OFFICE TO OFFICE" if they strike someone with their brief case with a Brick or heavy object inside its gonna be a solid hit might not hurt him but may stun him enough to run away. Tell them not to dress like a "NEW GUY TO THE COUNTRY WITH A CAMREA ON THERE HIP" show them other the people in the area DRESS WALK ACT. so they dont get easily noticed as NEW they must look like them so they can blend in. Learn there Lingo for words like KILL, ROB, STEAL, etc. Also it sounds like there is more then 1 guy. Teach them to fight as a group. Im sure the enemy will prolly come with more then 1 guy??. Teach them how to walk in a group. tell them if they out number the enemy to split up get the enemy nervous 2 guys cant watch 10 all at once if they split up around them (But give them a Exit.). Get them to fight as a group watch Gang fights cuaght on tape kinda stuff. Teach them to make pepper spray in that country or Can or Fly spray. That in the eyes is gonna hurt and its legal to walk around with (A Man in a suit with fly spray saying its cusae he doesnt like flies is very beleivable), all they weapons cant be noticable and have to be legal.

you guys prolly no all this kinda stuff just didnt think. Simplicity guys cuase you not gonna turn them into warriors over night.

thats the stuff I'd do to protect myself. Also teach them Hijackings in the cars they drive get a net of some sort or something to block windows what they do in South Africa is they throw a brick threw the window guy swerves and stops they walk up shoot him get in the car drive away. Also teach them not to STOP at a traffic light or stop sign try keep the car moving slow down untill light changes its harder to hijack (Carjack). also if they see a gurl getting beaten to death or lying on the road to IGNORE THEM and just keep going. it could be a set up they do that alot in south africa aswell. Tell them KEEP IN DOORs when they not meant to be out. THEY THERE FOR BUSINESS AND BUSINESS ONLY. Tell them if the country is dirty the girls are dirty aswell.

ok im just rumbling some of you guys will prolly disagree with alot of this but you need to them to think like a Criminal. Also teach them never to sit with their back to a door always be a Exit teach them when they walk into a ROOM they notice every Potential Weapon and Exit and Entry. Notice the size of the room how high up they are Etc.... I would tell them not to Socialize cuase they make a friends gets one of them drunk takes him home and ByeBuy Johny.

Also tell them get a $5 watch dont wear Rings, Necklace or anything to attract focus on them.

ByeBuy I can't stop talking.
*Resists*

Get a gun teach them how a GUN WORKS how to aim etc.... how to take it apart etc... Also Wear Thick Gloves protect hand when you hit a guy (Say its cuase you got Arthorities or something and say it helps to deal with it, I know Ive punched a guy with Knitting Type gloves I didnt feel a thing. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Get them a MAP and make them LEARN that Area off the top of their head. Everystreet allyways every police station, easy to get lost in a new city or country, they need to know the areas better then the locals do. Learn the bad parts of the city what gangs are in their what they known for "Drive Bys, Knife Attacks Etc..." Tell them no DRUGS if they sometimes like to light up you dont want to talk into your enemies garden. No Drinking they need their wits about them 24/7. In hotelroom by 9:00 PM. When they walk in the street walk in the middle of the road (If no cars are around) that way it will give them more time to reacte if someone aproches or walk in the shadwos so you can see them but they cant see you. Teach them to walk with Confidence a Criminal can spot a fake or a weak person isnt that how he makes a living??. Teach them to put their wallet where a Pick pocket cant get to them cuase if your Passport or Location where abouts are known it can be BAD. I dont know how Extreme they place is but rather be Over Prepared then under. Also Teach them to use they Belt Whip a dude with your Belt buckle (HE gonna be sore in the morning) make sure the guys pants fit though.

oyeah DO THIS AT YOU OWN RISK, Im just telling you how i'd do it. Im not responsible or anything if you do this crap.

[This message has been edited by MantisFist (edited 01-10-2005).]

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#100835 - 01/10/05 02:37 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Everyone,

Firstly, here's a devils advocate question for you all; How much training do you think an attacker/aggressor/assailant has before they attack someone?

---------------------

The modules that I have posted are what I teach to small groups outside the relms of my Academy to groups such as Young Farmers, Cadets, Womans Groups, Corporate groups, etc. An error in my posting was the "defence against a knife attack", which should have read defence against an edged weapon to include all sorts of nasty implements.

I don't do too much Grappling or takedowns/throws simply because I take advantage of the English law of being able to lawfully use pre-emptive strikes as a defence. With that in mind, the students are taught, Attack, Attack, Attack, and don't stop 'til they drop.

Ed, Pressure Testing is a bit like Situation/Scenario drills, but there is more emphasis on Adrenaline Management. The differences being that I decide who the attackers are, but more importantly, the victim doesn't know that they are the victim until they are a victim. I take a bunch of people to maybe a stairwell, a dark basement (we train in a college) or a car park where the victim is attacked by waiting aggressors (usually my Instructors).
Everyone steps back and watches (or leaves the area) whilst the victim defends him/herself. There are no rules or pre-determined techniques, it just happens and doesn't stop until I say it does. I might even throw in a few more people, or weapons, to make things harder. A de-briefing then follows.

ButterflyPalm, the best Edged Weapon defence that I have learnt was taught in five hours. I picked it up pretty well, as did others around me that had absolutely no MA experience whatsoever. The G.U.N. system is simple and effective.

Take care,

Gaffer.

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#100836 - 01/10/05 06:42 AM Re: 30 days to train someone.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Butterfly palm

First of all your green belt training for 3 or 4 months is going to be training 2 to 3 times a week for a couple of hourse each time.

I assumed from Ed's question he was talking about intensive training. An hour's training one on one with an instructor is like several lessons in a class. Also our hypothetical candidate will not be doing 4 to 6 hours a week, I am assuming he will be doing at least that per day. Obviously with lots of rest and good nutrition in between.

Lastly, Ed said "Before you say it can not be done, lets say that you do not have that option...say you were hired to do a job for a fortune 500 company sending personel to a hostile country."

No one is suggesting taking an untrained person and doing this. It is just an interesting discussion.
Sharon

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#100837 - 01/10/05 02:02 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gaffer,

You put through a very well sorted out answer...and your training seems to work through the problems that most people put to you (you beat me to the punch about how much training an antagonist would have)....but here's a question...and this is not meant with any disrespect (sometimes writing doesn't convey the nuances of real conversation):

Having noted your Tae Kwon Do background and the previous experience you listed in other threads, how much traditional training did you take with you into your current marial arts curriculm? And do you change your teaching for your regular students (say at dojo/dojang) when compared to these seminars or classes you hold for the groups that you had mentioned earlier? In other words, is this the same paradigm you use all the time for your martial arts training, or do you change it for different classes?

Just trying to see when you changed from the traditional stuff, how much you took with you, and how and when you integrated it into your practice. After you mentioned it in an earier topic, I did check out Geoff Thompson's site.

Regards,

-B

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#100838 - 01/10/05 03:11 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Butterfly,

Very good question(s)!

The biggest chunk of TKD that I continue to use is the way in which the kicks are taught just as much as the kicks themselves. The biggest influence on me was Grandmaster Hee Il Cho, who is breathetaking to be around.

From a personal perspective, breaking my first board was a massive personal achievement as the board to me was like a switch. The switch that would build my confidence and one that made me realise that I was capable of doing anything that I set my mind on. Up until I broke that first board I had confidence issues going back to when I was bullied at school. All those thoughts and feelings disappeared after breaking that board. Ooops, sorry, I digress...

Whilst working as a Doorman I found that a lot of my TKD training wasn't applicable, which made me rethink the reasons for doing MA's in the first place. I then realised that at least 40% of my training was a complete waste of time for what I wanted it to acheive.
Although TKD was good for sport and art it was ineffective for Self Protection/Defence purposes, which made me frustrated. The 60% that did work, mainly for sport and art purposes, I kept.

My syllabus is put together in such a way that it caters for:
Sport - Sparring 45%
Art - Patterns 10%
Reality Based Self Defence 45%

I do not teach:
1 step sparring
2 step sparring
3 step sparring
Korean Terminology
TKD Self Defence (cough, cough!)

I teach TKD sparring and patterns to a national level of competetiveness, but only within my Dojang or by Private Tuition.

The RBSD that I teach to small groups and corporate classes is a condensed version of what I teach to my students as my students get more quality time with me and we have more facilities to hand. My students are graded on their RBSD skills, which progress in terms of difficulty and intensity as they progress up through the ranks.

I hope that goes some way to answer your question(s).

Note to everyone: What I do is what I do, I totally respect everyone elses view as I hope you do mine. My reply to Butterfly was to give an insight to my Academy and was not intended to offend anyone who practices in a TMA.

Take care,

Gaffer.

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#100839 - 01/10/05 03:35 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
Hi Gaffer,

I am not offended by your post at all, but I did find it interesting.

Do you really see no value at all in 1,2 or 3 step sparing? I don't see them as the be all and end all, but I do find them a useful training/teaching tool.

Why do you choose not to teach them?

Not being argumentative, genuinly interested in your oppinion.

Maybe the Wado Oyho Gumite and Kihon Gumite are different to the way other styles do 3 step sparring. Anyone here done both?
Sharon

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#100840 - 01/10/05 03:42 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Ed

Good question.

Can you be more specific?

What "self defense" skills I would try and teach depends quite a bit upon where they are going and what they will be doing.

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#100841 - 01/10/05 03:44 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gaffer,

Thanks for the reply.....your digression about the board breaking probably speaks more clearly to the heart of Traditional MA and its character building qualities...and plainly makes a case for traditional teaching....however, I was wondering about the "self-defense" aspects of your school....glad to hear that you teach the same materials there.

I have had similar recognitions on my part about the "my" personal experiences in TMA.

Here's hoping your new year will be great.

Regards,

-B

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#100842 - 01/10/05 04:02 PM Re: 30 days to train someone.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wadowoman,

Didn't mean to jump into your question, but I bet Gaffer meant that his scenario training probably encompasses the idea of 1-2-3 step sparring in a more real setting.... just thought I'd offer. He can correct me if I am wrong.

Seems like an interesting and well thought out training system, but still curious about all those Korean kicks in self defense situations.

-B

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