Do tournaments hurt martial arts?

I went to a tournament last saturday, it was the first tourny I'd been too in three years. It really threw me off. I know that people change katas to make them more flashy for the judges. I'm ok with that to an extent. What I saw....geesh where to start, in the middle of a kata the guy stands up straight and walks to a corner, faces the opposite corner and does 3 flips across the ring. Saw a bo kata where the guy did a strike from a hand stand and when he wrapped it up at the end he did a flip.

I expect to see kids kaiing on every move, I expect to see all the kicks raised up to head level for the judges. What I saw saturday wasn't kata, it was garbage. Of the 100+ katas I saw I could identify 4-8.

People are spending time making katas and altering katas to look good. Is there some hidden benifit in that that I don't see? It seems that most of the people there were more interested in getting a plastic trophy then doing the katas the way they were taught. Aside from the beginners no one did any traditional katas, no pinans, no naihanchis, no tensho, seisan or geikisia's.

I value my katas very highly. I'd much rather lose all my money then lose my knowledge of kata. It looked like alot of high ranking martial artists sold their katas out for a plastic trophy.

My friend competed, this was the first time he had ever been to a tournament and he did very well. We were watching the brown belts and black belts sparring, then he says "the only things that people are throwing is lead leg side kicks and backhands" He was correct. I watched almost all of the sparring and I only saw two people get hit hard, one happen to be my friend, he threw a cross to his opponents stomach and the guy doubled over. and Gina Thornton almost sidekicked a girls head off her shoulders.

It seems that tounrament sparring is teaching martial artists to not hit hard. I see the benifits of sparring. Its a neat little game of body tag, but so many people ( especially non-martial artists) veiw it as the top of the line in martial arts. The same goes for tournament kata. Why is it that those aspects matter so much?

I don't know what to say but i agree with you 100%. I have not yet been to a tournement but the ones I catch on ESPN@ and or other channels dishearten me. The Katas you describe do nothing but give fuel to the JKD kata haters out there.

These people illustrate my point Kata is not an end unto itself it is a means to an end anything that is not practical has already been discarded in the past by people who have actually been in life or death combat. Who is some kid who calls himself a go-dan to change something that has worked. It would be like an army recruit finishing basic training and then questioning his NCOs who have been in combat on the effectiveness of the tactical training they teach. Imagine some private in the army telling a war veteran that his ideas are no good and that his new ideas are better. I am not against improvisation and innovation but serious questions arise even in my mind when someone even creates what he or she calls a new style. If you look at Krav Maga which is supposed to be one of the biggest innovations in martial arts in the 20th century, all it does is teach the same old techniques and simplify them down to teach effective fighting quickly. A backflip has no purpose anywhere near a fight and should not be tolerated in a sport that claims to be a martial art. Remember the word Martial means war or combat.

And another thing I was in a tournament two weeks ago and it was like my opponent was begging to be punched don't they teach defense and body movement any more. I roundhouse kicked this guy in the ribs he fell down on his face and I got disqualified for excessive contact. I have always been instructed in judging seminars that the face knees groin and throat are vulnerable even for a well trained fighter so they must be protected in tournaments, I completely agree with that but, the rule of thumb was always that a black belt or someone who accepts the risk of competing in the highest division and asserts that they are in good shape so that heavy contact to the body is usually allowed and even scored. I really don't have any clue or advice to give you these days, except at the highest levels of international competition very rarely does anyone throw a side kick. Most points in the Pan Am games came from reverse punch, lunge punch, roundhouse kick to the body and front kick to the body, all extremely practical techniques. I think American tournaments score junk too easily so people throw junk but nobody would win outside of the U.S. with side kick and lazy slapping backfist to the face. I competed in one tournament in Romania and aside from the lack of grabbing and clinching, and the stop time when points were scored this WKF tournament had as much contact as any foll contact tournament you will ever see.

Tournaments are an escape from the reality of MA. Some instructors push thier students in that direction and some frown upon them. The bottom line is ...there fun, no more no less. There is nothing wrong with competing outside your dojo and having your own kata's ect. LONG AS YOU COME BACK TO REALITY WHEN YOU STEP BACK INTO YOUR DOJO. Remember it's just a tournament, a place for MA's to gather and have a good time...why sound so gloomy about it? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

I have a karate book from like 1950 that talked about the new craze tournament karate, this book basically stated that Tournaments really have three purposes. 1. To train a person to act in a stressfull situation. 2. To practice timing 3. To develop proper control. I don't know if tournaments are good or bad but they are sometimes fun, it's nice to have something to be competitive with for someone at my age, other than rec soccer of softball. I really think that for someone to do some of the forms I see on ESPN they must really be devoting enough time to that that they must be neglecting real training, I don't like these tournaments that trick people into thinking they are better than they really are. Karate should only look pretty by accident function should always precede form.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
I have a karate book from like 1950 that talked about the new craze tournament karate, this book basically stated that Tournaments really have three purposes. 1. To train a person to act in a stressfull situation. 2. To practice timing 3. To develop proper control. I don't know if tournaments are good or bad but they are sometimes fun, it's nice to have something to be competitive with for someone at my age, other than rec soccer of softball. I really think that for someone to do some of the forms I see on ESPN they must really be devoting enough time to that that they must be neglecting real training, I don't like these tournaments that trick people into thinking they are better than they really are. Karate should only look pretty by accident function should always precede form.[/QUOTE]

1950...great. Do you want to know the real truth about the "purpose" of tournaments, it's big business $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
And another thing I was in a tournament two weeks ago and it was like my opponent was begging to be punched don't they teach defense and body movement any more. I roundhouse kicked this guy in the ribs he fell down on his face and I got disqualified for excessive contact. I have always been instructed in judging seminars that the face knees groin and throat are vulnerable even for a well trained fighter so they must be protected in tournaments, I completely agree with that but, the rule of thumb was always that a black belt or someone who accepts the risk of competing in the highest division and asserts that they are in good shape so that heavy contact to the body is usually allowed and even scored. I really don't have any clue or advice to give you these days, except at the highest levels of international competition very rarely does anyone throw a side kick. Most points in the Pan Am games came from reverse punch, lunge punch, roundhouse kick to the body and front kick to the body, all extremely practical techniques. I think American tournaments score junk too easily so people throw junk but nobody would win outside of the U.S. with side kick and lazy slapping backfist to the face. I competed in one tournament in Romania and aside from the lack of grabbing and clinching, and the stop time when points were scored this WKF tournament had as much contact as any foll contact tournament you will ever see.[/QUOTE]

Tournaments are opptional, if it's not for you take the other path, don't make them sound so horrible.I like going to them to see all my old buddies that I used to fight or train with, it has become more like a social gathering for us. It gives some MA a chance to shine a little, some people need that in order to validate all thier hard training.........some people.

In my school, we consider tournament sparring to be the bridge between the dojo and the street. You are up against a stranger, and usually have no idea of their skills. You have to deal with adrenaline and pressure, but in a controlled environment where, hopefully, no one is going to get really hurt. (Although I did see a Black Belt end up with a broken rib at our last home tournament.)

As for kata, locally there are divisions for "traditional forms," performed "by the book," the way you would for a test in your own home school, and "creative forms," where people change stuff, add all the (in my opinion) useless gynastic moves, etc. It's just how the promoters decide to create divisions.

You are misunderstanding what I am criticizing. When the olympics went to their new boxing judging for example where five judges have a button and if three are pushed within 2 seconds a point is scored, not based on the old style of judging. Effective agression and ring generalship. The styles of fighters changed first people stopped punching to the body because it is more difficult to see, and with a knockdown counting the same as any other punch fighters stopped training for power. When these fighters turned pro they were less well prepared for the sport. In Karate backfist to face and side kick are easy to see so people practice them, with no risk of being thumped fighters have moved away from conditioning, when they move to higher levels of competition they are less well prepared, as a backfist to the face needs to be pretty darn good to score and usually leaves the fighter open to being thumped. If karate is viewed as a sport the fundamentals are more important than flash.

would this tourny be the Ging Wu Martial Arts Association International Championships? cuz i was ther last saturday

I was talking about the WKF Eastern European Championships a few years ago in Romania.

[QUOTE] Why is it that those aspects matter so much? [/QUOTE]

because the instructor can probably keep his student happy and interested therefore the keep the money rolling in.
I hate this and it HAS put me right of the semi contact fighting. And entering Kata. I saw a two dan grades, a 3rd and a 5th compete at kata. one did a kanku kata another did a made up kata (In a traditional kata catagorie) the made up kata looked more flashy high kicks pumping kicks and loud kias. he won.
It really disheartens me.

The question I have is why is a 5th Dan still competing, shouldn't that take between 25 to 35 years to achieve, wouldn't the guy be between 45 and 55?

[This message has been edited by WADO (edited 05-07-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WADO:
The question I have is why is a 5th Dan still competing, shouldn't that take between 25 to 35 years to achieve, wouldn't the guy be between 45 and 55?

[This message has been edited by WADO (edited 05-07-2004).][/QUOTE]

Sharon, ageed, after you have attained your second or higher it really isn't fair to compete anymore. They should have a catagory for masters but most don't compete anyway.The only thing the Masters/Sensei's should be doing is demonstrations.

why shouldnt masters compete? If they want to, fine. i respect those that have attained the3 rank to have the title master. but it is just a rank, same as yellow and green. In tournaments it is the skill that matters, not the rank. in the last tournament I was at i watched a very talented 2nd dan get beat by a phenom green belt. (the green belt was given a 2 pt lead.) and as far the changing kata idea. alot of tournaments have a division for tradtional forms and open forms. The fancied up showy forms belong in open division the tradtional competitors should not have to compete with the fancied up katas.

When you look at martial arts tournaments really you need to think of them as a sport seperate from martial arts training. The skills in martial arts make competition better but I think if people keep competition seperate and see it as a means of improving, footwork, timing, endurance and speed and less as an end to training this discussion is unnecessary. Two other benefits of training are the ability to act under stress, fine motor skills are extremly difficult to use in a stressfull situation, so a little bit they teach you what techniques actually work under stress. Second they give a goal to training Psychologically deadlines focus the mind, the give you something short term to shoot for, for those who see tournaments as the goal of training that is thier problem not ours, and who knows they may have a lot of fun competing. For me I would think a 5th Dan would gain more from teaching and coaching than competing, it's really fun when your students do well.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schanne:
Sharon, ageed, after you have attained your second or higher it really isn't fair to compete anymore. They should have a catagory for masters but most don't compete anyway.The only thing the Masters/Sensei's should be doing is demonstrations.[/QUOTE]


lol Schanne, WADO is a guy, I am wadowoman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by still wadowoman:

lol Schanne, WADO is a guy, I am wadowoman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]

Excellent answer. [QUOTE]Originally posted by schanne:
Tournaments are an escape from the reality of MA. Some instructors push thier students in that direction and some frown upon them. The bottom line is ...there fun, no more no less. There is nothing wrong with competing outside your dojo and having your own kata's ect. LONG AS YOU COME BACK TO REALITY WHEN YOU STEP BACK INTO YOUR DOJO. Remember it's just a tournament, a place for MA's to gather and have a good time...why sound so gloomy about it? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I am not quite sure... I know that the "activities" (they dont deserve the title of tournament) on ESPN are a bunch of Americanized bull. But at my dojo we are not allowed to add any thing to Kata or we will get a lower score, and the in sparring tournaments we get disqualified for repeating the same motion to much or making a sloppy motion. So I guess in some ways it hurts them, but in other ways it keeps it real.

Thank you

Tournaments are a fun sideline for younger folkfs imho. Thoroughly enjoyed them when I did them but don't have the desire any more and besides I am too decrepit these days [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Tournaments are moneymaking events, advertising venues, a gathering of friends and families and a stage for exhibitionists. At least that's what I observe from many of the tournaments televised in America. I've also competed in point-fighting tournaments as well as traditional kata.

I now live and train in Japan and the differences between martial arts in Japan and America are stark. In America, much of the sparring training I undertook was under point-competition rules. As a result I was fast, I could launch multiple attacks and counters, I had good "ring" sense and timing. I was a competent and confident point-fighter, but I was not prepared for knock-down style karate in Japan, which I now perceive as the closest thing to a real-life street confrontation, the ultimate test of one's MA training. (Muay Thai is also pretty close to a street whuppin)

In Japan, not all, but a majority of karate tournaments are full contact, ie. no pads, gloves or headgear, and hard, devastating technique. You're allowed a groin cup and mouth guard for protection. (Children are allowed more protection.) No hand techniques to the head, but anywhere else is pretty much ok: gedan mawashi geri to legs, hiza geri to chin. A mawashi-geri to your opponents head, no matter how fast, won't mean much unless you follow through and knock him down.

Sparring in the dojo now is a real education in the value of defense, keeping up your guard, pressing your attack, and following through. In the beginning, I'd throw my trusty high-kick, wait for the imaginary ref to acknowledge my "point" and then get hammered by my opponent intent on knocking my on my but. Also, forget about keeping your hands low like a prancing Bruce Lee wannabe's. Point fighters don't last long in Japan. I've since adapted.

Kata competition, is all traditional. If you want music and back flips, be a rhythmic gymnast or take your act to Vegas. As for your kiai, save it for the select moments in the kata, otherwise a kiai every other breath makes you appear like a raving looney.

So do tournaments hurt martial arts in Japan? Tournaments keep karate "real." Many dojos expect their students to participate in tournaments in order to get promoted, certainly to black. As a result there is no belt inflation, like I witnessed in America, where you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a 3rd, 4th, 5th degree black belt.

Incidently, the knock-down style I've described is not limited to Japan. Around the world, and yes even in America, it is known as Kyokushin Karate, and variouly by its many derivative styles.

Osu!

Hello Dixon:

People like the circus and clownish entertainment foolishness. What you describe was only missing the tent and the elephants...

Were there three or six rings at the one you attenced (: 9 ???

Jeff

During my earnest practice of traditional-style Shotokan and open-style Kajukenbo, as well as more recently Aikido, it has been my consistent observation that those practitioners of martial arts that do not have the discipline to train daily, to jog, stretch, and practice on their own outside of the dojo setting, like a true, determined, well-rounded athlete, are the ones that have a "sour-grapes" negative view of karate point-sparring or the more self-expressive, stylistic tournament kata. On the other hand, the great senseis, seifus and masters I have studied under have all survived the trials and tribulations of the "tournament circuit" for years and years and they all have performed spectacularly, both from a "showmanship" or entertainment perspective as well as from a Traditional (with a capital T) and honorable Bushido or Budo perspective.

So in my humble opinion, tournament fighting and tournament kata is simply an additional dimension of display or test (not the ONLY test mind you) of spirit, speed, power, targeting, body control and physical conditioning, stamina and psychological willpower to perform, execute and win under pressure, in a safer more controlled environment than a late night bar or the unforgiving streets.

Again, this is only my humble opinion at this point in time.

Peace and OS!


[This message has been edited by shepherdandrew (edited 10-08-2004).]

One quick note, though the side kick is overused it is powerful, and if used correctly can be devastating. Have a video where to guys are sparring Kyokushin karate style and when one of the two stood square to the other one he was nailed in the face with a sidekick. the vid is at www.bullshido.com

i just want to say that i totally agree with you wado
I take sholin karate that has been passed down from direct lineage. we do old style okenawan and its not fancy like u guys are talkin about in the tournaments( very affective though ^_^) and ive seen other schools butcher good katas for those tournaments and it is very disheartening to know that schools disrespect a kata thats been passed down from sensai to student over so many years but, i also think that if judges would score low for butchering a kata that it would stop the showy katas all together and people would get back to the real katas.

To be fair to the sport karate tournaments, the stuff they show on tv is the stuff that will appeal to the widest audience, namely NON-practitioners. Most tournaments have, if not specific traditional Japanese/Korean/Chinese/ forms divisions, then at least a Traditional forms division wherein the kata has to be an actual kata, and is judged accordingly. (e.g. If you throw an au batido, or some other personal modification into Koryo or Unsu or whatever you will be penalized.)

What they show on TV are the open/creative divisions which, while we can look at and say "I pray somebody tries to hit me with a 1080 spin hook kick someday", does have the ability to make the average non-MA go "Oooh, Ahhhh." And since TV aims for the lowest common denominator, that's what gets televised.

In a nutshell, I don't know if they really hurts martial arts in general but they definitely creates better athletes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sholinsfinest:

I take sholin karate that has been passed down from direct lineage. we do old style okenawan and its not fancy like u guys are talkin about in the tournaments( very affective though ^_^).[/QUOTE]

Sholin? I've never heard of that style of Karate. Is there any lineage to Shaolin? Their names are awfully similar.

I practiced martial for many years for self defense.When I competed in tounments I looked at each fight as self defense situation eventhough they were in controlled enviornments.The point is touns.are not just about winning plastic metal metal objects, although it feels good to win. It is a test of skill against people you don't know,helps build confidense,and opportunties to make friends and visit other schools. Know matter if your in mixed martial arts or point-fighting if you can hold your own you will have the awareness,confidense,and the ability to protect yourself if the need arises.
thank you.

Keep on preachin' I agree compleatly!
Tournaments not only ruin good katas but, fighting also in my opinion. You learn bad habits. Especially in no-head-contact tournaments. I love fighting people who don't have head contact in the schools, their hands are down so, Iz pop em.
Go in peace and may the horse be with you.

...And the rider too?
Lousy joking aside, I wanted to comment a bit on the forms thing... even though this is a pretty old thread. (I'm notorious for digging up dead or dying threads... *sigh*) In any case, this tournament that I am participating in this March has divisions for "contemporary" forms, and traditional kata. i wonder though... American Freestyle is a newer martial art... does it's kata belong in contemporary, or in traditional?
On another note,I prefer the traditional kata of my style, but I find it a challenge and lots of fun to make up new sequences... ^_^ Kinda like imagining a fight in your head. Seeing as I'm not a gymnast, fancy flips belong in the Matrix for me...

~*Tsubasa*~

This is late I guess but anyway..people just make up a bunch of crap for kata because if it looks too plain in competition you won't get anywhere. The sparring in tourneys is fun but kind of annoying. It gives the public the idea that MA is all fun and games. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

The question is not wether or not tournaments are inherently bad or good.

The question has more to do with the ruleset.

1: Hard contact must not just be allowed but expected.

2: The ruleset must not be restrictive. If it's a striking tournament, kicks to the leg, punches to the head, clinching, knees and elbows should all be allowed.

Boxing and sport karate both have tournaments, but boxing is much more effective. Why? Because the goal in boxing is to KO your opponent, while the goal in sport karate is to score points.

hi everyone,i'm new to the forum so go easy on me guys and girls! last sunday i competed at the cimac national superleague open tournament(my first one) as a practitioner of traditional karate my eyes were opened to the fact that form stle and control were totally thrown out the window in the kumite(semi contact) i managed to win my first fight using one technique scoring six points from it.everyone had the mindset of i must punch that guy in the face as hard and quick as i can,also with all the padding we had to wear it stopped you from using hooking blocks and open hand techniques effectively.but at the end of the day it was good to pit traditional karate(i was the only person in a white gi from 300 people!)against kung-fu,kickboxing,tkd and freestyle,so i will be competing again just to show the essence of true karate in the competitive arena...steve-uk

Have you ever been kicked/punched in the face during sparring? Dunno about you but the matches I entered weren't games of tag. If we can't practise our martial arts against others in a supervised fashion then all we'll ever be able to do is hit the air or little pads. There's something about going against a real opponent that teaches you about how ingenious (and sometimes outright random) people can be. I think it'd be a waste to lose this aspect of MA.

When a martial art actually teaches someone to turn their back on an opponent (in most tournys, its a violation to hit the opponent in the back) I'd say tournys actually hurt the style.

It depends on what kind of tournament. I'd say the one you were in sounds like it could be a waste.

However, I was recently in a tournament where it was continous, full-contact, face punches allowed. Let me tell you, that kind of competition definitely allows you to put some validation behind your training, as well as giving your future training some direction. It helps.

Tournaments can be good or bad, its all relative.

[This message has been edited by traz (edited 03-24-2005).]

Dixon I agree one million percent. Its a shame to see things this way. I can remember chopping up and changing forms so they would be more appealing to the judges. I have a room full of plastic won by such forms. As I look back now im not even proud of them. I am curently relearning all the forms needed to test for my blackbelt. I feel changeing the art just for the sake of winning a tourney is sad. Dont get me wrong mixing and changing styles to better yourself is very good. But changing just to win a pile of plastic, marble, and screws is stupid cause you are screwing yourself and your students in the long run. It took me a long time to learn how to hit hard again and to stop holding back my blows. And as I said I am still trying to learn the correct forms.

I've been to good tournaments, where traditional kata meant traditional kata, and I've been to tournaments that weren't so good, where dancing and gymnastics won kata divisions, and the tall guys won sparring because all they did was rush up on you and swing wildly. It all depends. tournaments can be a good thing because they allow you to have some fun, but they can be a bad thing when they start to be too much about who can win that trophy.

There are competitions where all weapons are allowed, it's called Muay Thai, so if your up to the challenge give it a go.
Kyokushin kumite fighting without face punches has no padding and therefor is extremly demanding on the body and i have to laugh at anyone who scoffs at the fighting ability of Kyokushin fighters. Easy to do on the net, bit harder in reality.

Tournaments can be good or bad, depending on who runs them. If a mcdojo runs a tourny, then the flashy katas will win, and you can be sure all the students are well trained in point sparring.

If a traditionalist runs the tourny though, practical MA will win out, and the judges for sparring will actually quit scoring the quick cheesy no value sparring techniques after the first or second fight.