Gymnastics in forms?

People have been including gymnastics in kata since forever. Hidy Ochiai used to do traditional style forms and incorporate back flips in them in the 70's.

Some people have very impressive gymnastics and martial technique interwoven.

If you want a way to judge whether their efforts are more than superior gymnastics (and nothing wrong with that if that's where your head is at.

If in the form if there is one movement where the punch is a push (to just extend the movement flor for the eyes of those watching) or one technique that is not martial in intent, then the entire form is not martial. [I'm assuming this is not a beginner, where mistakes may make incorrect technique.]

The flaw most modern forms have, is the high energy of the gymnastics is often followed with pretend techniques.

To consider a form martial each technique must be directed with correct energy/flow to martial contentl. The advanced Chinese forms (not modern WuShu) using gymnastics were all created with that in mind.

It still seems a reasonable way to look at it.

That is a reasonable way to look at it. Most people who've been training seriously for at least a few years can tell the difference between a real kata and a gymnastic routine. A sr ranking BB should most certainly be able to tell the difference. I've beaten guys in tournaments who changed their forms to include flying spinning kicks in places they didn't belong simply because I chose a traditional form and didn't change it. The one time I tried changing my form all I did was add something to the end, and I didn't do as well, even though the flow was there.

Bushi,

I've been at this over 30 years.
When the first gymnastic forms came about they were rather tradition, like Hidy Ochiai doing a perfect back flip in the middle of a form. Or Jhoon Rhee's classical music TKD forms.
Then Gary Michak created 'Superman' to the superman theme song (from the movie). His was a prefectly, incredibly complex form.

When gymnastics crept in (such as instructors havingi their young students begin training in gymnastics too, and the custom building forms, I don't think we knew how to judge them.

They didn't look like karate, but the skills to do what they were doing were extreme, so a great gymnastic routine, versus a great Chinto became hard to judge, and many (myself included) likely gave extra credit to the gym form.

But in those days nobody was spending much time on the application potential of karate. As I greadually became enraptured by the 'force' (star wars plug, good timing of course) I eventually left tournaments behind.

Then I came to realize martial intent and other things. And when I saw how the early gymnastic MA forms became modern Juke and Jive forms, with kicks and strikes for looks, not focus how to judge them came to me.

Today I only would judge any black belts forms of any sort by one standard. If the entire martial intent is perfect 100% if thee's one mistake 0. And from what I've seen todays Juke and Jive are almost a certain 0.

But then judging myself I'm a 0 too. But those I would give 100% too, those are the ones to watch out for.

Heck If I could do Superman I'd love to do it, martial or not, it was neat!

I myself am a gymnast, and when I first became interested in the martial arts, I immediately gravitated toward a more solid, grounded art. I love doing gymnastics, don't get me wrong, but simply because both gymnastics and MA require great physical conditioning, doesn't mean that the two are easily intertwined. I think some martial artists could benefit from some basic gymnastics training, such as with back handsprings, which cover a great deal of distance with minimal effort, and still leaves your opponent in your view, but flash kicks and roundoff double backs should be scored from 1-10, and shouldn't find their way into a MA tournament. and powercheerleading is nowhere near gymnastics, please don't insult my fav. sport.

Gymnastics and MA can most certainly complement each other, but you're right, they don't automatically intertwine. The balance and coordination you gain from gymnastics does translate over very well though.