Kata as Self-Defense

I think with all the new mma,UFC,and Pride type events kata is being overlooked as self-defense. People just want to get in there and go at it.
Kata with proper bunkai(application)is very good for close quarters combat. Many people today see it as fighting multiple imaginary opponents from a distance or just punching and kicking air.
Ofcourse you're not going to perform a kata on someone during a fight,but take each movement and give it useful meaning.Then you have more than useless movements.
Having said that,kata is not all you need,you also need to spar and put the applications to use.
I'm not bashing on MMA,but I feel kata is too often seen as useless by alot of people who don't practice it or don't understand it.

Kata is good because you repeat stuff so much it becomes automatic. Of course you would never perform a kata and defend yourself but they do "program" some very useful things into musule memory.
IMO if you know what each move does and can imagine attackers, it might just "click" if you are every attacked.
I'm sure the old folks who came up with these arts had a good reason for kata, or they wouldn't have bothered with it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JayJay:
Kata is good because you repeat stuff so much it becomes automatic. [/QUOTE]

What about timing? By that I mean, the timing that you need and that would come from the resistance from a REAL, and not imaginary opponent?

-John

John,

Good point. That's why people practice kata bunkai with a partner, first compliantly to get technique and then with resitance to see if it works.

Kata was just a way for the teacher to pass on the techniques in an easy to remember format before DVD was availale.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by still wadowoman (edited 04-23-2005).]

Practicing the techniques on a resisting opponent will give you timing.
Noone has to do kata to become a good fighter,but maybe they would be a little better if they had.

Quote by still wadowoman:

[QUOTE]That's why people practice kata bunkai with a partner[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....did you mean kata bunkai is supposed to be practiced with a partner? In all the years that I did kata, it was always done solo, in the air.

I agree that is is next to impossible to learn the timing elements when practiced by yourself.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattJ:
Quote by still wadowoman:

Hmmm....did you mean kata bunkai is supposed to be practiced with a partner? In all the years that I did kata, it was always done solo, in the air.

I agree that is is next to impossible to learn the timing elements when practiced by yourself.[/QUOTE]


That was how I did kata as well (solo, in the air). In all the time that I did kata, I absolutely KNEW that I couldn't fight worth a crap, if I'd needed to.

Kata bunkai - the practical application of kata. Why don't we just go right INTO the practical application with a partner(s) using variable levels of resistance and skip the solo practice (after a few rudimentary repetions that is)?

I am under the impression that most of the martial arts population, understands that kata is solo practice. I think that is generally the first thought that comes to mind.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SANCHIN31:
Practicing the techniques on a resisting opponent will give you timing.
Noone has to do kata to become a good fighter,but maybe they would be a little better if they had.[/QUOTE]


Sanchin31:

I mean no disrespect, but that's pure speculation there.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 04-23-2005).]

Kata is about perfection of technique. First kata is done to learn the basics of the technique. Once these basics are learned techniques from kata are practiced on a partner with increasing levels of resistance. This practice is integral for a karateka to develop "timing" of their technique and to learn the "true timing" of the kata. After this "true timing" of kata is learned a karateka can practice kata using visualization and improve their fighting ability during this solo exercise. Then the lessons learned can be applied to resistance again and a karateka can improve further. Karate is a system that is not effective if not trained properly. Most styles of karate do not train it properly, and even in the styles that do most karateka do not. It is not necessarily any better or worse than the other systems, but if trained properly it is effective. Kata at higher levels is about perfecting the timing and technique that has already been developed through the heat of battle. Just as an elite level athlete uses solo drills and visualization to improve along with contact and partner work. Any one who does not understand this knows nothing of elite level athletics.

'I mean no disrespect, but that's pure speculation there."

No problem John,only my opinion.

<<<Kata bunkai - the practical application of kata. Why don't we just go right INTO the practical application with a partner(s) using variable levels of resistance and skip the solo practice>>>

John,

You raist a good point. Why don't we just do the technique? Afterall, jujitsu doesn't do kata (not in the karate sense anyway), they just practice the techniques.

Back in the day, it was how techniques of the system got transmitted. Like Sharon stated, before DVD days.

But after karate (or any other art that uses forms) shifted from jitsu to do, kata became a zen pursuit- perfection of form, focus, etc.

Do we need kata today? Guess it depends on what you want from your practice. I like kata. For me, it is a good way to remember techniques because kata is the encyclopedia. I also like the meditative aspects. Although I do visualize attackers, I also realize that how a technique is done in kata is not necessarily the way it is done "for real". (which again calls into question the use of kata practice). What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to understand kata... :-)

peace

Nicely put kenposan!

[QUOTE]kenposan wrote...
Why don't we just do the technique? Afterall, jujitsu doesn't do kata (not in the karate sense anyway), they just practice the techniques.
[/QUOTE]

In some styles of jujitsu, there are 2 person katas, for the more difficult/dangerous throws.

Solo kata is good for learning basic foot, hand, body movements. Paired kata is good for timing, resistance, and body positioning.

Then you get into things like jujitsu and aikido and a range in between varying degrees of choreographed movement.

The way I see it, kata is one end of the spectrum of learning movement, and "aikido"-like movements at the other end of the spectrum.

All martials arts fit somewhere in between those two ends of the spectrum, depending on the level of the participants, and the emphasis of the style.

I am not saying that kata is "basic" - everything is "basic", when you look at it. It's just YATM (yet another training method).

That being said, IMO, kata is an excellent method of teaching, of solo practice, and for preserving the transmission of knowledge, but it is only ONE of many training methods.


FWIW,

Ignatius

Sanchin,

I wrestled with this concept for awhile. And I will state that this is only coming from my experience and is only an opinion. Though I have preceding experience, of late I have studied mostly a Kyokushin derived style of Karate (last 15 years)...heavy emphasis on the contact side....light on the kata side. Most of the upper ranks had some boxing experience or were amateur boxers themselves. I also study or have studied concurrently some other MA arts that are distinguished by the lack of what you might consider traditional kata (BJJ, Judo, and Aikido).

The karate kata I am mostly conversant with are not the older style ones but were developed by the head instructor and are meant to simulate flow from one opponent to the next and techniques depending upon distance. Nothing implied, very explicit...no bunkai. Each of the kata can be broken down to its 10 parts and practiced with a partner stationed at each of the 10 points of the kata. Think shadow boxing, but as counters to real techniques thrown by your partner. Useful...but that's it.

I have had previous experience where the styles were heavily ladened with kata and the utility became suspect...because the lack of "contact"....live resistance as JKogas has mentioned. Perhaps the instructor was bad or the conceptual stuff just wasn't presented in a way that I understood.

However, having experienced previously a style that changed kata in midstream when they had joined another governing organization, having seen kata in different manifestations presented by similar styles, and noting the multitude of kata...I came to ask...why kata if it is this malleable? If there was one extreme kata that enveloped all the fighting abilities that some folks have dropped at it's doorstep...why do all these different orgainzations have differing kata and differing takes on the kata? Unlimited bunkai can be a detriment.

Personally, I feel more comfortable learning shadow boxing/kicking drills and punching/kicking a bag, than I would learning the ultra orthodox, and sometimes, to my undescerning eye, archaic moves within kata without the validating evidence that these techniques work. Now some would argue shadow boxing/kicking drills are kata...but then why not adopt these instead of the orthodox katas?

Again this is just my mumbling speculation, but if I took two people without training and told one to practice kata and worked with another on pad drills and after two months had them spar...my thoughts would be the guy doing the pad drills would win. Just a guess and conjecture coming from me.

With warmest and most humble regards,

-B

butterfly,
You have much more experience than me and it seems you're wiser also.
I don't think having a whole barrage of kata are useful and it can be just too much.
Think having a handful of kata is more suitable.(five years one kata [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] )
If all you're looking for is fighting you don't need kata to do that.
Kata has many purposes for me and only one is self-defense.

Sanchin,

Wiser is not what my wife tells me. But your answer is acceptable and sufficient....if you like, you buy it..and enjoy it. That's good enough. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regards,

-B

Kata?
What is that?
Is that something you can eat?
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I got KO once doing kata against friends in the dojo, so i beleive it can be used as a self defence technique.
Beacuse after that mistake i never got KO so easily again. And that is self-defense for me.

I got KO once doing kata against friends in the dojo

You don't do kata to someone.Did you even bother to read the thread before posting?

yes sanchin I bothered to read.
My english is not so good so maybe sometimes I write somethings that are dificult to understand.

In my dojo we do katas on our partner.
Once my partner atacked fast and I didnt get out of the way on time and he KO me.

SO it was a very good school for me.
P.S.
Why did you think that I didnt read the topic?

Maybe my post is a little of topic, but did it really deserve such a reaction from you?

And yes, I do beleive that katas are an excelent way of learning important things in MA (like basic techniques, movements, strikes and such).
And when you train on your own katas are the easiest way to stay on course.

Satter -

I was under the impression that ninpo taijutsu did not have kata in the traditional Okinawan/Japanese sense.

Are you refering to prescribed self defense technique practice? We did a lot of that in American kenpo, and yes, injuries were common.

I do not really consider those kata in tha manner being thought of in this thread, though.

I suppose if you have limited access to training partners, kata might be better than nothing. For the life of me though, I can't see how having a lack of partners is possible in this day and age.

In my opinion, considering that I have a limited amount of time available to train - I personally want that training to be as alive as possible. I want to optimize that available time. Its hard for me to fathom spending any of the precious time doing some kind of solo drill. But that's just me.


-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MattJ:
Satter -

I was under the impression that ninpo taijutsu did not have kata in the traditional Okinawan/Japanese sense.

Are you refering to prescribed self defense technique practice? We did a lot of that in American kenpo, and yes, injuries were common.

I do not really consider those kata in tha manner being thought of in this thread, though.[/QUOTE]
Bujinkan has katas, but yes they are a little bit different.
These katas are shorter than your normal karate katas, and we have katas that are precribed self defense techniques, but we also have normal katas (just a little bit shorter).

People that don't really understand kata are never going to get it.
They often are totally blind to the shortcomings of their own training regimens.

They also have little grasp of history or how kata relates to the practice of martial arts.

Don't think you can actually reason with people that don't get it--they are not actually intersted in either reason or logic.
For them its a BELIEF system--and anything that does not support their belief is considered "wrong."

Course there are many folks on the kata side that have the same erronous belief system as well.

Like to different relgions--neither one understands that both have elements of "truth."

Satter,
I apologize for the misinterpretation of your post. I thought you were making fun with "doing a kata on someone". Sorry. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I didn't realize that your style has short kata that you actually "do" to someone.

No problem.

Hmmm....how can I say this?

OK, let me say it directly...

Kata is simply a training method for teaching correct footwork, body placement, hand positioning, and ki extension. Kata doesn't mean anything unless it's in relation to someone attacking you. Hence bunkai or application.

So a "2-person kata" is also valid.

Now here's the kicker: If you do a 2-person kata quickly, what do you get? What does it look like? Now do it with someone charging at you with intent to strike. What does that look like?

Most people already know that kata is not a contiguous paradigm - i.e. you cannot apply movements from a kata contiguously in response to an attack. But you can take a short non-contiguous sequences of kata movements and apply that as ONE particular response to a specific attack.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:
Hmmm....how can I say this?

OK, let me say it directly...

Kata is simply a training method for teaching correct footwork, body placement, hand positioning, and ki extension...
[/QUOTE]

And KI extension.


There you go folks!

-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 04-24-2005).]

Ahh, guilt by association....

Kata is just a convenient package...if you don't like it, train, and we'll train together later...

Kata are like the encyclopedia of a systems.

Can they be used in combat or in sparring? They are everyday in individual techniques or combinations but not in Kata sequence people don't fight in patterns, left then right side.

I value Kata as much as I do shadow boxing or randori, it gives you a chance to practice your techniques. Once you have the pattern down you can use the techniques in the kata to train as you do in shadow boxing. I can work up as much sweat doing all the Katas I know as I can Shadow boxing.

Value of kata I've used it to defend in sparring matchs were my mind went blank and I was caught off guard.

I've used Sepias mid level parry & grions strike in real fights and its over shoulder arm break or submission on the street handling two opponents. I've used the lighting snap punches on Saisan to knock men out, did it feel like the Kata? No the hands came from my side right into the strike not from a dual forearm uke. But it was the same strike. I've also delivered the front kick elbow strike of Shisosan. Elbows & Fore knuckled strike of Saifa ect...

In my base system I am now in admiration of how simple and usable Kata technique are. Those guys were genious, after trying to devise Kata myself. I Once wanted fancy stuff as young competitor, but simple is econmical and effective.

When you start studying the internal side of your art you will start seeing the Chi strikes and merdian manipulation used to heal and destroy.

I know some of you young guys think this MA BS, but seeing is believing. Kata maps this out, wait and you will see.

Herbal, Accupuncher and Accuppressor is an science, that works. Its at the near end of every Martial Art once you get there and you look.

I'm not trying to convince any one, everybodies journey through the MA is different.

I only need to say one name and thats it and I know that you probable say " Oh what ever." But the name is....BRUCE LEE.

Rouge

What about "Bruce Lee?"

Spent his formative years getting a solid foundation in a very traditional system.
Complete with kata.




[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

In Judo, kata is performed w/ 2 people.

In Shorinji Kempo, it isn't called kata, but the attack/response exercize uses 2 people & each has a name. For me, all those names were confusing (& I speak some Japanese) - a different name for each technique or variation of the technique.

I prefer karate-style kata that encorporate several techniques in a flowing series. The only other difference is that in SK, the techniques are literal & in kata it's interpretive. Very economical because you don't need to know each minor variation. You learn the basic concept & apply w/ your own variation.

And I'd like to reiterate: performing kata is NOT a choreographed fight against multiple opponents.

[This message has been edited by hedkikr (edited 04-25-2005).]

Spent his formative years training in Wing Chun and then brokle off after finding that it took to long to end the fight. Sok he promoted being formless and shapeless like water. I know that, that little insert came from one of his innerviews but bruce showed that to be free thinking and using everything in your arsenal is optimal. Sometimes forms limit ones thinking or become over kill. Im not completly saying that forms dont have anyplace. I think that forms are a great start for any one starting a new art or starting out from the beinging. But after a while if they just stay the same they become stale and leaves nothing to look forward to.

Rouge

Many ways to deal with this.

1-As per what I have read from some WC guys, Bruce never really was all that good with WC.
And how could he have been--"really" only spent a few years, and a boy/teenager training WC.
Which considering that the guys that Lee trained with (as a student) are teaching WC WITH the kata intact, well, should give you another viewpoint.

2-For a guy that was involved in only ONE supportable fight--and even that one has a number of eyewitness that disagree as to what exactly went down, Lee was certainly outspoken in his opinion of kata.

3-As a chinese stylist, and one with little time spent in the system that trained in, Lee was in no position to offer authoritative views on the kata practiced elsewhere, in other systems, such as karate or other chinese arts.

4-A number of folks that trained with Lee, Norris, Jhoon Ree, any number of karate guys---despite training with him--still trained in and retained kata training in their respective systems.

5-Holding Lee up as some kind of MA "uber" authority is questionable at best.
He even lifted the quote you mention--"being like water" from OTHER MA guys--the concept and quote PRE-DATE Lee by a couple of decades and a couple of 100 years depending on the person you wish to use.

If your wishing to have a whole "Bruce Lee" debate--please check the multiple threads where this has been done to death.
Including a really good one that used modern sport analysis techniques to determine just how strong etc Lee "really" was in modern terms--and he really is not so impressive.

I am impressed, and I really mean that. I really just wanted to see if you would give me an answer that would hail the great Bruce lee as a god. I do not. Bruce was a thinker and I will give him that. But one of the greatest martial artist of all time I think not. If being the greatest martial artist of all time only takes a movie career then sign me up for lessons under Jean Claude van damm. Forms do have there place and are great for training. But I think that its good to change it up from time to time. My students have forms that they complete under wing chun and kenpo. They also learn Muay thai and western boxing. But their learing does not stop with me. I give them what I can and then lead them in the right direction. I usually turn them over to a great martial arts training center The jasukai marital art training center in provo utah.


[This message has been edited by Rougewarrior (edited 04-25-2005).]

Everyone's opinion of kata is going to differ. That's always going to be the case.

One thing that will not change is the fact that kata isn't a necessity for becoming a great fighter.

I think that speaks volumes.


-John

RougeWarrior so that is your Jeetkunedo, great and MA is and endless book. Lee did effect in that you point the way to advance study after they forfil your requirements.

As for Lee being a great fighter or teacher, he is Great because years after his death he is still held with great respect and talk about him to this day, and on into the future.

As Achilles, B.P. said to the littel boy in Troy. That is why you will be forgotten, because you will never acheive greatness, because you are afraid.

As for being great in Wing chun, I gather from the people in the know he was only at Black slash level Intermediate/ begining advance level. Which would indicate he was not a master but far from a beginer.

Which is a good foundation to buld a base from. Most people thought him a better fighter/technican then teacher and he did like sparring anybody that could spar. He himself would say I can't teach you anything I can only ....

He did not like teaching beginers with no skill, its said that Guru Dan is a better teacher. But Insanto would say that he can't do physical speed/timing/strength things that Bruce could do and its why his Jeetkunedo is so different. And anybody thats worked with Guru Dan knows he quite powerful.

All the new flangle Filipino and Silat stuff say they don't teach Kata but they do. They say the intent is different in that it never been a sport always a self defense. But I get the same feel a sequence of moves to learn one way of doing various set of techniques, some done to music to set timing.

STILL THE SAME THING.

Bruce was a taoist philosopher the Punch being just a punch is Taoist monk quote.

In honesty he never said those ideal were his he only stated them, to make his point.

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-25-2005).]

Lee was a great martial artist but you will see time and time again that he is refered to as the greatest martial artist of our time. He should be refered to as the most reconized martial artist of our time. I think that there are many minds right know that have great ideas and fresh ideas that would make Mr. Lee very proud. I too left wing chun to go to the military at a young age at black sash. But when I returned from serving my contry I found that in the fights that I got into in the bars (not my fault) wing chun didnt always work. So I also used my early muay thai training and with the combination of both styles it made me a more affective fighter.

JKogas

You know what else "speaks volumes" the fact you don't need ANY form of HTH MA to defend yourself at all.

A gun is a far better weapon--more effective, can be used with less physically intense training, size "really" does not matter a little kid or the smallest women can kill the biggest baddist guy.

Heck, look at the number of violent attacks in any major city.
The numer of attacks compared to the number of people living in the city pretty much means that VERY few people are EVER the victem of violent crime--the number gets REALLY small when you look at the nature of the attack--as in how many of them could have been avoided thu MA training--such as people being shot.
Like I said above--being an expert HTH fighter does you little good in a gun fight.

And many self-defense situations can be best addressed thu the use of simple common sense--don't go place and do things that are risky.

As one of old econ profs used to tease me about--why spend all that time, energy, expense, sweat and pain, when the chances of EVER havin gto use your skills is so remote--and if your "really" worried then why "waste" your time at all with skills of such limited utility?
Esp since much of street crime involves a gun?

If being a "great fighter" (I assume you mean no weapon and HTH is your only critria of value)--then you have to admit that being a "great fighter" in HTH in world full of people with guns and documented willingness to use them is of VERY limited utility.


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

Quote by cxt -

[QUOTE]And many self-defense situations can be best addressed thu the use of simple common sense--don't go place and do things that are risky.[/QUOTE]

THE BEST SD ADVICE EVER!!!

[QUOTE]As one of old econ profs used to tease me about--why spend all that time, energy, expense, sweat and pain, when the chances of EVER havin gto use your skills is so remote--and if your "really" worried then why "waste" your time at all with skills of such limited utlity?
Esp since much of street crime involves a gun?

If being a "great fighter" (I assume you mean no weapon and HTH is your only critria of value)--then you have to admit that being a "great fighter" in HTH in world full of people with guns and documented willingness to use them is of VERY limited utility.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry cxt.....but I think I'm going to have to kick your econ prof's ass for making me ponder that point.

*MattJ enjoys a thorazine break with the talking dish towel*

MattJ

Don't blame you, his little "cost vs benefit" Q&A with almost everything got old fast.

Only time I even kinda felt good about it was doing a "cost vs benefit" breakdown of HIS class--on the final.

Good thing for me that he had a good sense of humor.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

CXT,

Wonderful post and absolutely to the point and "is" the conundrum that is current Martial Arts practice. We don't use swords and rocks anymore...but you do have small men looking to use their big thundersticks.

However, one must also recognize, if we were honest, that most of us originally started training in the MA to learn how to fight. Archaic as it might be...Martial still means some utiltiy in the defense area (HTH), but to what degree and to what extreme do we train with respect to appreciating modern weapons technology and the use of them?

The argument that most would use is that, what if you got into a fight and didn't have access to a weapon, what then? Exactly.

Now, do we practice as if we are going to the UFC....some do. I am too small and know that I would get smashed by these guys...but I try the best I can without placing any title of fighter or "street dude" on my shoulders and hope I practice with utility in mind. But this is the place that most martial arts shine...to encourage you not to be out there trying to get your "macho" out over another person.

This can happen in two ways...one may be that philosophical aspect to not engage in fighting for reasons outside of sport or defense...another is to actually get your ass handed to you. If you get too big for your britches, think of the bigger dogs that are out there with weapons and consider what they may do.

But still for the life of me....if I went over to a friend's house and he had a book of poetry (and I do like poetry) and he had a knife collection on a coffee table....I know which one I'd be picking up first to look at...and it wouldn't be the book.

-B

Butterfly

I agree.

What I am trying to do is NOT get all caught up in the whole style/training method thing.

Read a great article recently--(which I will try and find the link to)-about all the time and effort folks spend arguing about this training or that style and how it "may" work in some hypothetical "real" encounter.
And what supposed "advantages" this has over that.

Its fun to do at times and I suppose it could be considered informative on some level.
But at the end of the day I think a "real" encounter is almost never what we think its going to be.
And argueing about hypotheticals is ultimatly of little real value.

Other than if folks are having a good time doing so of course [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-25-2005).]

Hey, what do you know! Both CXT and JKogas are right.

-B

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
JKogas

You know what else "speaks volumes" the fact you don't need ANY form of HTH MA to defend yourself at all.

A gun is a far better weapon--more effective, can be used with less physically intense training, size "really" does not matter a little kid or the smallest women can kill the biggest baddist guy. [/QUOTE]

Even better than that is complete avoidance of potential trouble to begin with. That’s the choice I always make. But I enjoy fighting (sparring to knock out and wrestling to submission). It’s great fun. To be the best at those things, the LAST thing I’d want to do is waste what little time I have. Kata for me, would do that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Heck, look at the number of violent attacks in any major city.
The numer of attacks compared to the number of people living in the city pretty much means that VERY few people are EVER the victem of violent crime--the number gets REALLY small when you look at the nature of the attack--as in how many of them could have been avoided thu MA training--such as people being shot.
Like I said above--being an expert HTH fighter does you little good in a gun fight.
[/QUOTE]

That’s true. Good thing I’m not a violent person or, a person with the propensity for finding himself in trouble spots or the proverbial, “wrong place at the wrong time”. But I wasn’t talking about self defense issues, I was specifically speaking of fighting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

And many self-defense situations can be best addressed thu the use of simple common sense--don't go place and do things that are risky. [/QUOTE]

That’s always the best choice. The instinct for self-preservation is always something to be preferred over the ability for self defense.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

As one of old econ profs used to tease me about--why spend all that time, energy, expense, sweat and pain, when the chances of EVER havin gto use your skills is so remote--and if your "really" worried then why "waste" your time at all with skills of such limited utility? [/QUOTE]

Because competition is fun. Because a little sweat is a good thing. I could go on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Esp since much of street crime involves a gun?[/QUOTE]

That’s why avoidance is always the preferred choice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

If being a "great fighter" (I assume you mean no weapon and HTH is your only critria of value)--then you have to admit that being a "great fighter" in HTH in world full of people with guns and documented willingness to use them is of VERY limited utility. [/QUOTE]

Absolutely – if I were speaking of street fighting, if I were speaking of going out and picking “bar fights”, etc. But that’s not even REMOTELY what I’m referring to when talking of becoming a great fighter.

In my opinion, becoming a great fighter is an athletic pursuit. It’s something that occurs within the gym, not the street. It’s not some title that I might brand upon myself by going out and picking fights with people in bars or elsewhere. I most certainly wouldn’t do that sort of thing. There’s no honor in street fighting.

I thought that most everyone who knew me by now would have already realized where I was coming from.


-John

Jkogas

The key words there are "for me."
For others its not such a "waste."

I always say if it works for you--then do it.
If it does not work for you--then don't.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:

Jkogas

The key words there are "for me."
For others its not such a "waste."

I always say if it works for you--then do it.
If it does not work for you--then don't.[/QUOTE]


That's why I use that manner of speech.

However I still stand with the fact that kata isn't a necessity for becoming a good fighter. That won't change.

That said, if kata is "fun" for you and others or if you derive any sort of benefit away from fighting, more power to you and all. Do it to your heart's content.

-John

JKogas (and CXT)

And another great post! Now I remember why I still read these forums outside the stupidity of little kids, it is out of a civil contention of ideas...with elements of truth that belong to two parties with logical arguments. Hey now, I applaud you both.

But as a nod to the original topic...I still rather do pad work and working with resisting opponents than Kata....but that's me.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

-B

Anyone wanting another view. Read Multiversed post on the purpose of kata in the talk forum. Great post.

Jkogas

I never said that I was a great fighter at all and you took what I had wrote way out of context. I myself have a conceal carry permit and carry a Sig Sauer P239 9mm. I also instruct a combat pistol course. A trained professional is the best in any of the situations. But this threat is about kata's. I would talk about guns with you all day but I think that you are some guy that probable carries looking for crime so that you can save us all from big bad cities of crime.

RougeWarrior You sound like the complete MA to me just as the Samuria carried the Katana. You are trained to use the approipate weapon at the approipate range. One of the things that I am impressed about Steven Sengal is that he is well trained in the use of the auto pistol and Aikido among other arts.

Kata as a self defense it can't do it by itself but with a complete training regiment it is a road map to enlightenment, Chi strikes & interanal health thru breathing properly ect..

You young guys who now stress fighting and I have plenty of friends that thought like that, now they are older still trying to hold on to their youthful talents. But as you get older things change. I still train but not to be a Champion or win street fights, but to live a healthy life, I'm satisfied, with where I am in life. You don't want to worry yourself that U could have been a Contender.

Now as I mentioned in another thread I don't do the pretty techniques or long combinations anymore, I'm more precise and direct. A guy bobbing and weaving I don't try to time his head, his body not moving especially his testicle their just swing in the wind. I'll punch at the head but thats not what I'm aiming for.

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-26-2005).]

I could have been a contender. Ha [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] thanks brando, love the quote. Im not totally concerened with street fights, Competition fighting, ECT. I personaly want to fight in the ufc by the age of 30 and I am now 27. Martial arts have been my life from the early age of 6 and has been my first love. Training traditionaly has always been first on my list but like I have said its just good to train for the street if it ever comes rearing its ugly head. Growing up in the community that I did and being hispanic it was rough and in high school it was important that I focus my training for the real thing and not just for competition or for belts. That whole way of thinking went away when I got in a fight at school because I was wearing a type of red that some gang had made their own. I now give instruction to those who cannot defend them self's. Mostly I want to give the picked on kid a chance to fight back if he is sick of being the butt of someone's joke. Now I know that, that last sentence is promoting fighting with today's youth but its far from. Teaching the youth to properly fight and protect themself's help's them feel like they belong and that the bullies that they come across in school, life, what ever! Cannot relly affect them. But if one of them wants to place their hands on them then they can give the jerk what for! Giving these kids someone to talk too and also giving them someone to look up to is my goal. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

CxT wrote - A gun is a far better weapon--more effective, can be used with less physically intense training, size "really" does not matter a little kid or the smallest women can kill the biggest baddist guy.

My reply - Yeah but theres a time and place for everything. Do you think that the police depts. and Military teach hand to hand/self defense tactics because they don't work.

They teach it because even with a knife,grenades and rifle you will sometimes be without ammo or the guys in too close for a gun. Then all you have is wit and self defense skills.

You always will have your training with you, not so with a gun. Unless you strapped down in the showers or in a public bath room and a guy bear hugs you while his buddy tries to slugs you. It happen to me that way, my Beretta 40 did me no good, nor my Benchmade knife, only my SD skills brought me home.

I agree a gun is better, but its not always available.

[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-27-2005).]

Neko,

I think you might be misconstruing the argument that CXT is making. He was stating that in the context of the whole of MA, self-defense(H2H) is a part of, but not necessarily the whole of MA.

-B

Neko

I think your misunderstanding what I meant---or perhaps I just said it poorly--which to be honest is more than possible [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

What I was doing was pointing out how these arguements seem to revolve around what the most effect method of HTH comabt is for self defense.

When the truth of the matter is that the most effective means of self defense are:

1-Common Sense
2-Awareness
3-If you can't run, hide etc, then the use of a weapon.

(if of course you can get it out in time and are trained to use it properly--see #2 above)

None of which are generally delt with by ANYONE argueing for or vs this or that system or "style."

Another thing that most folks overlook is what you bring up the "what if" line--as you mention-"what if" your caught in the shower?
Thats a question that can asked about ANYTHING, ANYONE AND ANY "STYLE."

And thats a question you can NEVER really answer--because someone can ALWAYS say "what if" and present a situation where "your" method either won't work or would be at serious disadvantage.

I'm not suggesting that self-defense training is NOT helpful or NOT useful--just that in the scheme of things a firearm will generally beat a punch or armbar--not ALL the time of course--but generally.

(again if you can get it out and use it properly--and like I said--you can say the same for ANY person or style.)

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-27-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 04-27-2005).]

I apologize for my misunderstanding and I totally agree with your conclusion after you explained it again in detail. You are absolutely right, if there is such a thing in such a discussion.

I understand and agree with your anology, definitely it is the way of the modern warrior, which I feel you guys are at least you think like one. I dunno know.

Neko

Nothing at all to apologize for.

Like I said, chances are pretty good I was less than crystal clear in my OWN explanation.
Would not be the first time [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Interesting discussion all the way around.

Perhaps a last word before the Topic runs out of steam? or some die-hard Bruce's fans turn this into another monster / monstrous thread.

Kata in and of itself obviously do not give you good fighting skills; just as gun target practice at the firing range do not guarantee you come out alive in an "alive" gun fight; there are so many variables; but at least you learn to shoot straight. There are many more aspects to MA than training in katas.

As an old practitioner, kata is now to me more for meditation; the practice is an end in itself; whether any of the techniques can or will be used effectively in a fight does not enter my mind at all. Just let the movements flow; because the movements are already built into and became part of the muscles, like dancing. Its like humming an old familiar tune or taking your dog for a stroll everyday at 6 pm before dinner or drawing your katana out and sheathing it a hundred times a day. It is the doing of it that matters.

It was recognised a long time ago that just doing katas alone does not gurantee anything and so in the old days there was 'san sou' (loose hands) where no katas were taught, only the individual techniques extracted from the katas. This was for people who wanted some fighting skills in a hurry. Of late this term 'san sou', in the West, has taken on to mean a system in itself.

However if you want to be a martial artist and not just a fighter, katas are the only text books available, and just like a surgeon who has to practice his operating skills on "alive" patients, you need to do some "alive" fighting to bring those text book lessons to life.