Knife defence

I would like some advise on Knife defence. I have had some training here so not totaly new. I am wanting to incorporate this into class on a regular basis. I am going to list some attacks and if you guys can think of others please let me know I don't want to be limmited to my imagination.
1) straight in thrust
2) slashing downward and across body.
3) downward stabing motion
4) from behing knife at throat or at back

These I have covered, but anything else would be appreciated. Also the dreaded hidden slash (knife handle in hand, blade pointing toward elbow edge facing out) any suggestions here?

Thanks Dan

I assuming that you are an Instructor so I will address this question from a preparing a lesson plan type approach. And I will only give a counter for the 1st attack. It would take too lengthy reply to cover the full spectrum of your question and there are plenty on Senseis/Gurus/Instructors that might add to your request. I hope.

The straight thrust to the middle section I teach at 3 different levels the basic level requires limited skills and is almost an instinctive responce.

Level 1 Which is to step back and grab the attacking arm with both of your hands pushing the weapon down and away to side your body (this was the grasp I used before any training when attacked by a knife, it worked then and should now), after securing the grip, head butt to the face, knee to the grion, release one hand and in a crossing or upper cutting motion, fore arm strike face wrapping the head into takedown. Note the knife may fall from his hand watchout for the blade.

Place the knee so that the elbow falls over knee, disarm or so that the blade faces away from you. At an advance level so that he falls on the blade pending the circumstance.

Level 2 Parry trap, elbow temple, rolling into arm bar (disarm or break), spin back elbow to jaw, forearm strike to face, into osotogeri, stomp still holding on to the arm.

Level 3 Parry trap, eye gouge, short elbow to knife hand elbow joint while you pull down on wrist (disarming or elbow break), knee to kidney, two hands grab one to the top of the head and chin takedown or neck dislocation, stomp.

Notice that each level the severity damage is heighten and technical difficulty and exact damage to attacking area is more specfic. Don't teach beginners potentailly deadly techniques, note blunt trauma can produce the same effect.
I try to use the KISS approach.

From the perspective of "Keep it Simple-r" Stupid, I would suggest that you look at how you can use one or two gross motor skills (pushing, grabbing, hitting) to address the problem.

In my opinion, anything that involves a "parry" will likely have problems both in training and live application. The parry is a fine and complex motor skill especially when follwed up by typical martial artsy transitional moves like wristlocks and takedowns.

Check out www.centerlinegym.com for info on REDZONE, Jerry Wetzel's Knife Defense program.

Also, check out www.karltanswell.com for info on STAB.

These are by far the most practical and effective programs out there and they are effective from day one, without years of training.

You want to defend against a knife,go buy a gun and take a combative shooting program and learn to use it. Knifings arent that random, often to escalate to that level of violence you have to severaly screw up. You can avoid 95% of those situations.

AgenT,

Actually, I would have to disagree with you here. A gun would only be an effective response to a knife in a limited number of scenarios. This is respective to proximity and motivation of an attacker. Occasionally a phyiscical confrontation starts unarmed and then a knife may be introduced later.

All edged weapon scenarios do not start at 21 feet with a person brandishing a boxcutter. Further, most people do not realize a knife is present until they realize they have been cut or stabbed.

I think all people interested in practical self defense should have access to counter knife info without having the burden of carrying a gun.

Flecht1 wrote - a "parry" will likely have problems both in training and live application. The parry is a fine and complex motor skill especially when follwed up by typical martial artsy transitional moves like wristlocks and takedowns.


Neko456 - A parry is one of he quickest ways to deflect or misdirect an attack it is a basic move that most green belts can do. It is also the method used in most Kali and Arnis defense, the skill required is why we used it at Level 2-3-4 because at Level 1 it doesn't take much skill to grasp the knife weilding hand of an unskilled knifemen. Its either that or get stabbed.

Another thing is this, the total combination was not required when I used it in the street quite frankly only the 1st part the combination was used. Something about striking a guys eyes and break his arm takes the fight out them? The other techniques were thrown in from hind sight. Wanting to make my students better then me.

A lot of people are arm chair Quarterbacks, try adding to the fray before you comment on what I know has worked for me. Seeing is believing ain't nothing you can tell me gonna prove that it didn't work the time I used it. Thats why I teach it. I'd would appreicate constructive criticism then doubters with little hope. You have to believe to make it work. Of course I got nicked, it part of knife fighting. I teach that too. And you never invite a Kf, but if you have no choice, U have No choice.

I know on a open forum you can expect this type criticism because some people think street fighting is a myth, but its real.

Why not answer the instructors question, take one or all and reply.

Ah Flecht1 after your 2nd reply I notice you may have been there and done that, you do know but U won't share.

I like the approipate weapon at the appropiate range comment. I accept your criticism as constructive but subjective.

Neko,

I don't rule out the parry. I just see it as a technique that requires what I believe to be a high level of finesse for a person to pick up without a lot of practice.

I did not mean to cast doubt on your experience, only to look at the problem from a lowest common demoninator (LCD) perspective (little training time/ most consistently reliable under pressure/ least attribute or skill driven).

I totally agree with your Level 1 approach though. I would probably revolve everything around it myself.

Just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Fletch1 (edited 04-13-2005).]

We went through some knife defense scenarios the other day. We were all cut to shreds. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Fletch1 thank you for the web pages I have not had an chance to look at them yet, but am sure I will find something of use from them.

Thanks to everyone else, I did not get the responce I was looking for. but thanks for your views.

Regards Dan

Fletch: Based on reading your posts over the time, you have enough credibitly with me that I upped and bought both of the Redzone tapes on your say- so. Maybe we'll get a chance to discuss them once I get 'em and have a chance to work 'em.

Very cool.

On both volumes, Jerry demos some traditional Martial Arts responses to shank type attacks. Very interesting material and it shows how the program came about.

It also goes into a lot of behind the scenes research from a Medical/ Emergency Room perspective about what most knife injuries are like as opposed to what many martial arts instructors would have you believe.

Watch them in order as RZ2 definitely builds on RZ1.

Let me know how you like them.

Fletch -

I have Red Zone 1 and 2 though I've not had the time to really sit down and check them out.

I absolutely LOVE Karl Tanswells STAB and was wondering if the two overlap or are complimentary?

-John

REDZONE and STAB do compliment one another. Jerry's program focuses more on the Baseball Bat grip and STAB works more from the 2 on 1. Both are clinch based and control from the wrist to the elbow to the shoulder and work from the flank.

Both are designed to be worked against resistance in training. The very reason that elements of both are found in the ISR Matrix LEO program.

Against knife attacks now officers are practicing getting off line and blind with the flash light which is more likely to be in your hand then your gun pending the suddeness of the attack. Give you extra seconds to adjust.

I've even seen the extended night stick as the guy approaches, anything to slow him down to give you those extra seconds.

Granted like Flecth1 state a gun wound won't blow him backwards but nothings saying you have to stay where you are, the tacticle retreat and fire would be in order.

We all agree that If you train against the knife it increases your chance of survival. The knife is an anicent weapon to still be thought of so highly in modern times shows how effectivenss it is in close.

We have run courses for our own students in the past on surviving an edged weapon attack.
We tend not to use the word knife defence as we take the philosophy that in an edged weapon scenario unless you get get away you are going to get cut, from then on its about survival.
In a two hour class we would first show the surviving edged weapons video mentioned in a previous thread - this gets people thinking about the reality of the situation. Its pretty graphic and gives no illusions.
Once this is over we basically destroy any any further myths by practicing the black marker drill (we use white t-shirts and rubber knives). In this drill we pair up with one person holding a magic marker or rubber knife and without teaching any attacks we let them spar to the body to show them how easy it is to get hit.
We would then use one of the instructors to show whats happens when attacked by a skilled knife fighter (you generally dont even see the knife coming).
From then on we would work on some set attacks horizontal slash accross the body, diagonal slash accross shoulder to hip, figure of eight and straight stab to midsection. We would not teach direct defences just give general pointers (for example when facing an edged weapon clumping you fingers together kind of like a chicken beak rather that outstretching your fingers, minimising the chances of losing more than one or two fingers, making sure major veins are not on show etc).
Basically we dont want to give false illusions, I have seen classes where standard defences to a stab are two step back, grab the attacking hand with both hands etc - this leads to weapon fixation and ties up both hands, what happens if the person just changes hands with the blade - but in those type of classes that is never questioned.

Khayman

It probably does lead to blade fixation, but initally it stops the blade from entering the body.

The time I was attacked by a knife and I used that grip, I could smell the guys breath and hearing him breathing. He was pushing with his body trying to drive the knife in. Another guy was punching me over his shoulder, I didn't really feel his strikes and kinda duck behind his buddy. My parents came outside and they ran. I think I was cut on the forearm but not deep.

If I had training back then just as I teach it now, a head butt with another follow up would stop any changing of hands. I've replayed that scenario over and over in my mind. After you stop the inital attack you do have a chance against a knife.

While trained most of the my knife defense they talked too much and never really got it out a their pocket or opened. Or they were trying to stab my partner or someone else and I intervend. Like most I've never had a experience knifer attack me, from what I could tell.

So I will agree always the man with the weapon has the advantage, initally.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neko456:
Khayman
It probably does lead to blade fixation, but initally it stops the blade from entering the body.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed, what I was trying to convey was that I do not subscribe to teaching people a one set way of dealing with a certain strike, i.e. there are some styles that teach by numbers (this is technique 1 for stright knife stab, Technique 2 for overhead attack etc). This leads to a flase sense of security.
You accepted the chance that you would get cut and survived the encounter which is the best scenario.
Once you get past the blade its all about taking the guy out as hard and fast as possible.

If you really want to know what the best defense for knife fighting then look no further than www.sayoc.com Sayoc kali is one of the best knife fighting systems that is out there. Take a look and maybe even order a DVD from them and see how this style implements the basics of any art to defend against a knife attacking bandit. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rougewarrior:
If you really want to know what the best defense for knife fighting then look no further than www.sayoc.com Sayoc kali is one of the best knife fighting systems that is out there. Take a look and maybe even order a DVD from them and see how this style implements the basics of any art to defend against a knife attacking bandit. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Owtch.

Sayoc and other forms of Kali are wonderful arts for using an offensive blade and learning how to assasinate/kill people and duel with knives.

I think these programs are less than practical for defense against knives however, especially for those who don't have years to study, train and become intimately familiar with the blade.

Ray Floro, an incredible knife guy who teaches Kalis Illustrisimo in Australia, has adopted the Red Zone approach into his empty hand vs blade program. He did this after finding that the strength of the kali system was in the offense with the blade, not the defense against it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
...He did this after finding that the strength of the kali system was in the offense with the blade, not the defense against it.[/QUOTE]

That is correct. Kali (and its close relations, i.e. escrima/arnis) is strictly an offensive system. It was developed by the native Moro Indians against the invading Spanish Conquistadors in the Phillipines. Obviously the goal was to kill as many Spaniards as they could before they got cut down.

I was going to suggest that Kali and its close relations are useful for learning different ways of attacking with a bladed weapon, but you'd have limited responses using unarmed defenses against a skilled Kali practitioner.

I studied some arnis (Remy Presas), but most of the unarmed defenses in modern arnis are jujitsu influenced.

You are correct that the kail system is an offensive system of knife fighting. But the sayoc kali system has implemented the wing chun approach on knife fighting and putting a defenseive spin on it. I my self am a wing chun pratictioner and have been for many years and the sayoc system feels alot like the basics that one would learn in WC. WC has been know for its hand speed and great liniar movements. So using that in a knife fight (either being armed or not) can be great. But I am always open to new styles and was wondering if there is a web site for this man in aussie contry that has a different knife system? Thanks! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

http://www.florofighting.com/

I wouldn't say it is a new system. It is different. My point was that Ray disgarded the traditional empty hand vs knife tactics he had learned from his Phillipino instructors in favor of a simpler, more practical and reliable approach developed by Jerry Wetzel in Southern California, Red Zone (www.centerlinegym.com).

Against the straight thrust would this be an effective defence:
Opponent thrusts knife at you with hisright hand. You parry outside inward with your palm,pushing his arm away to the side and across keeping hold of his wrist turning to the outsid ( I think that's it), now deliver a side elbow strike to the temple with you right elbow, wrapping your hand around his head and deliver a knee strike to the body then wrap your arm around his neck applying a front headlock trapping his arm to your body, finishing with an elbox to the spine (Sounds real complicated when reading the steps but it really isn't when actually applied)
Just to let everyone know I dont plan on actually using a knife dfence on someone anytime soon. I'd rather give then money or something anyday rather then risking a knife defence that's likely unreliable.