30 days to train someone.

What if you had only 30 days to train someone in self defense. What would you teach them?

Before you say it can not be done, lets say that you do not have that option...say you were hired to do a job for a fortune 500 company sending personel to a hostile country.

I also realize there are companies that do this or provide security like Blackwater.

What training would you provide.

Please include weapons training.

Ed

Hi Ed,

Here goes...

Days 1-7
Introduction
Self Defence & The Law
Awareness & Avoidance (including Col. Jeff Coopers "Colour Coding")
Attack Rituals & Geoff Thompson's 4 D’s
Behaviour Patterns
Adrenaline Management
Passive Stances

Days 8-14
Passive Stances
Basic Striking Techniques
Striking From Passive Stances

Days 15-21
Advanced Striking Techniques
Situation/Scenario Drills

Days 22-30
Defence Against Knife Attacks
Situation/Scenario Drills
Pressure Testing


And yes, I do think that it is possible. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Take care,

Gaffer.

What do you mean by pressure testing?
Ed

Damn, Gaffer!

You're HIRED!!

The only thing I think I might possibly add would be the mount/guard positions from BJJ.

Not really enough time to really internalize any submissions, but the basic positions can work wonders by themselves. (Guard position re: rape defense, for instance)

[This message has been edited by MattJ (edited 01-09-2005).]

What about just drilling the hell out of them in strikes, locks, submissions, weapons defense etc, and both sparring with them and fitness everyday?

Gaffer,

Good reply, obviously well thought out.

I would add some groundwork. Not necessarily to take them to the ground, but in case they take you there or you cock it up and fall/trip.

I think the knife training should include defensive and offensive use of edged and blunt weapons of different lengths, as well as using everyday objects as weapons. I would also include firearm training.

Which scenarios to play out could be a whole different thread.

Ed, great question.
Sharon

Thank you Sharon, good choice in additional training...great to get a womans point of view.
Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 01-09-2005).]

If the trainee has absolutely no background in MA or other combat related arts or fire-arms, with due respect to Gaffer and everybody else, I just have to say it (albeit I have no practical experience in this area) -- it can't be done.

It will just give the poor guy a false sense of security.

3 months, may be. At least he will be in some physical shape and with some iron pumping, enough strength to twist an arm and dislodge a knife.

We'll just have to make up a dream-team from among the moderators [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by ButterflyPalm (edited 01-09-2005).]

I think that it could be done in the sense that the student would increase in some skills. However, this doesnt necessarily mean that every student would come out as a good fighter.

For The first eight days I would do boxing and footwork drills.

The next eight day would be Muay thai and clinch work.

The following eight days would be mount and guard work.

And the remaining six days Would be Small circle jujitsu.

Now this might not make a master but I believe he could be effective enough.

shizentai dachi, circle step, shorin triangle, soto uke (hand switch), 4 pressure points, 3 throws, 1 takedown, how to hyperextend an elbow from the outside and the inside.
That's it.
By soto uke I mean the exact motion that you need to step in and destroy the elbow of an oncoming punch. This block can be used with proficiency for any attack from either side and by doing the same step and block for each attack it eliminates the decision making process, which in turn reduces reaction time. This can be taught in a day and drilled repeatedly for 29. Always facing a partner, increasing in speed through the course of the month, never cooperating.
In this space of time it is important to teach as little variation as possible, work on repition of things that work.
I have assumed for this purpose that the trainee can already throw a mediocre punch, like most hetero males.


[This message has been edited by reaperblack (edited 01-09-2005).]

ReaperBlack.

That is just the point. Most hetero male, without at least 3-4 months of proper training, cannot throw even a mediocre punch, be it a MA or a boxing punch. Actually 3 months, in my view, is stretching it a bit. Without conditioning, he will break his wrist or knuckle, if he is lucky enough to actually get a solid punch in. And the person he is punching does NOT want just his wallet.

Look at any average male with say a green belt in a striking art. How many months to get a green belt? This green belt don't have to bother with other things like ground work, grappling, knife-disarm, firearms, throws, break-falls (in case he is thrown) For those who have done judo, aikido etc. how long does it take to learn to break a fall?

Timing and rhythm. We all know that intercepting any attack (especially edged weapons) is all about timing and rhythm. To get enough confidence to dislodge a knife from an attacker in a "hostile country" within a week? Mr. Gaffer?

Maybe enter them into a few NHB fights?? (Or something else that they know they gonna get hurt) no point learning all this Technique when if they get Adrenaline dump they gonna freeze anyway??. Best way to learn to fight is to get into them??. Cuase there they learning Stress management, they learning what fights are really like. And they practising there Technique??. Lets face it 30 days to Practise taking a gun or knife off someone is highly unlikly?, Why dont u get them Bullet Proof vests??. Stun Gun??, Get them all Walking Sticks or Umbrella's ?? A Weapon will help alot considering they dont know what they doing getting close to a knife atleast with a walking stick you can crack the dude from a distance and with the VEST it will stop blade attacks aswell (If aimed at the vest).

Who are there enemies?? you need to teach them like Gaffer said they need to know what the enemy are so they can notice them. Also get them to Wear BOOTS??. Ball box. Anything to give them leverage cuase. if they fighting skillfull people they've trained for a few years. YOU GONNA HAVE TO TEACH THEM TO FIGHT NOT TRAIN IN A MARTIAL ART. And I would only focus on Krava Maga type techniques. You want to them to be Agreesive as they can end get the fight over as quick as they can. Even teach them to walk with a Magazine rolled up good for Jabbing into the gut or face. Walk with a Leather jacket over the arm I read a article one to wrap your jacket around you arm so if he has a knife you can kinda use that as a shield to get in close. Or a Brief Case it can be used to deflect strikes. Put a brick in their bag when they going "OFFICE TO OFFICE" if they strike someone with their brief case with a Brick or heavy object inside its gonna be a solid hit might not hurt him but may stun him enough to run away. Tell them not to dress like a "NEW GUY TO THE COUNTRY WITH A CAMREA ON THERE HIP" show them other the people in the area DRESS WALK ACT. so they dont get easily noticed as NEW they must look like them so they can blend in. Learn there Lingo for words like KILL, ROB, STEAL, etc. Also it sounds like there is more then 1 guy. Teach them to fight as a group. Im sure the enemy will prolly come with more then 1 guy??. Teach them how to walk in a group. tell them if they out number the enemy to split up get the enemy nervous 2 guys cant watch 10 all at once if they split up around them (But give them a Exit.). Get them to fight as a group watch Gang fights cuaght on tape kinda stuff. Teach them to make pepper spray in that country or Can or Fly spray. That in the eyes is gonna hurt and its legal to walk around with (A Man in a suit with fly spray saying its cusae he doesnt like flies is very beleivable), all they weapons cant be noticable and have to be legal.

you guys prolly no all this kinda stuff just didnt think. Simplicity guys cuase you not gonna turn them into warriors over night.

thats the stuff I'd do to protect myself. Also teach them Hijackings in the cars they drive get a net of some sort or something to block windows what they do in South Africa is they throw a brick threw the window guy swerves and stops they walk up shoot him get in the car drive away. Also teach them not to STOP at a traffic light or stop sign try keep the car moving slow down untill light changes its harder to hijack (Carjack). also if they see a gurl getting beaten to death or lying on the road to IGNORE THEM and just keep going. it could be a set up they do that alot in south africa aswell. Tell them KEEP IN DOORs when they not meant to be out. THEY THERE FOR BUSINESS AND BUSINESS ONLY. Tell them if the country is dirty the girls are dirty aswell.

ok im just rumbling some of you guys will prolly disagree with alot of this but you need to them to think like a Criminal. Also teach them never to sit with their back to a door always be a Exit teach them when they walk into a ROOM they notice every Potential Weapon and Exit and Entry. Notice the size of the room how high up they are Etc.... I would tell them not to Socialize cuase they make a friends gets one of them drunk takes him home and ByeBuy Johny.

Also tell them get a $5 watch dont wear Rings, Necklace or anything to attract focus on them.

ByeBuy I can't stop talking.
*Resists*

Get a gun teach them how a GUN WORKS how to aim etc.... how to take it apart etc... Also Wear Thick Gloves protect hand when you hit a guy (Say its cuase you got Arthorities or something and say it helps to deal with it, I know Ive punched a guy with Knitting Type gloves I didnt feel a thing. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Get them a MAP and make them LEARN that Area off the top of their head. Everystreet allyways every police station, easy to get lost in a new city or country, they need to know the areas better then the locals do. Learn the bad parts of the city what gangs are in their what they known for "Drive Bys, Knife Attacks Etc..." Tell them no DRUGS if they sometimes like to light up you dont want to talk into your enemies garden. No Drinking they need their wits about them 24/7. In hotelroom by 9:00 PM. When they walk in the street walk in the middle of the road (If no cars are around) that way it will give them more time to reacte if someone aproches or walk in the shadwos so you can see them but they cant see you. Teach them to walk with Confidence a Criminal can spot a fake or a weak person isnt that how he makes a living??. Teach them to put their wallet where a Pick pocket cant get to them cuase if your Passport or Location where abouts are known it can be BAD. I dont know how Extreme they place is but rather be Over Prepared then under. Also Teach them to use they Belt Whip a dude with your Belt buckle (HE gonna be sore in the morning) make sure the guys pants fit though.

oyeah DO THIS AT YOU OWN RISK, Im just telling you how i'd do it. Im not responsible or anything if you do this crap.

[This message has been edited by MantisFist (edited 01-10-2005).]

Hi Everyone,

Firstly, here's a devils advocate question for you all; How much training do you think an attacker/aggressor/assailant has before they attack someone?

---------------------

The modules that I have posted are what I teach to small groups outside the relms of my Academy to groups such as Young Farmers, Cadets, Womans Groups, Corporate groups, etc. An error in my posting was the "defence against a knife attack", which should have read defence against an edged weapon to include all sorts of nasty implements.

I don't do too much Grappling or takedowns/throws simply because I take advantage of the English law of being able to lawfully use pre-emptive strikes as a defence. With that in mind, the students are taught, Attack, Attack, Attack, and don't stop 'til they drop.

Ed, Pressure Testing is a bit like Situation/Scenario drills, but there is more emphasis on Adrenaline Management. The differences being that I decide who the attackers are, but more importantly, the victim doesn't know that they are the victim until they are a victim. I take a bunch of people to maybe a stairwell, a dark basement (we train in a college) or a car park where the victim is attacked by waiting aggressors (usually my Instructors).
Everyone steps back and watches (or leaves the area) whilst the victim defends him/herself. There are no rules or pre-determined techniques, it just happens and doesn't stop until I say it does. I might even throw in a few more people, or weapons, to make things harder. A de-briefing then follows.

ButterflyPalm, the best Edged Weapon defence that I have learnt was taught in five hours. I picked it up pretty well, as did others around me that had absolutely no MA experience whatsoever. The G.U.N. system is simple and effective.

Take care,

Gaffer.

Butterfly palm

First of all your green belt training for 3 or 4 months is going to be training 2 to 3 times a week for a couple of hourse each time.

I assumed from Ed's question he was talking about intensive training. An hour's training one on one with an instructor is like several lessons in a class. Also our hypothetical candidate will not be doing 4 to 6 hours a week, I am assuming he will be doing at least that per day. Obviously with lots of rest and good nutrition in between.

Lastly, Ed said "Before you say it can not be done, lets say that you do not have that option...say you were hired to do a job for a fortune 500 company sending personel to a hostile country."

No one is suggesting taking an untrained person and doing this. It is just an interesting discussion.
Sharon

Gaffer,

You put through a very well sorted out answer...and your training seems to work through the problems that most people put to you (you beat me to the punch about how much training an antagonist would have)....but here's a question...and this is not meant with any disrespect (sometimes writing doesn't convey the nuances of real conversation):

Having noted your Tae Kwon Do background and the previous experience you listed in other threads, how much traditional training did you take with you into your current marial arts curriculm? And do you change your teaching for your regular students (say at dojo/dojang) when compared to these seminars or classes you hold for the groups that you had mentioned earlier? In other words, is this the same paradigm you use all the time for your martial arts training, or do you change it for different classes?

Just trying to see when you changed from the traditional stuff, how much you took with you, and how and when you integrated it into your practice. After you mentioned it in an earier topic, I did check out Geoff Thompson's site.

Regards,

-B

Hi Butterfly,

Very good question(s)!

The biggest chunk of TKD that I continue to use is the way in which the kicks are taught just as much as the kicks themselves. The biggest influence on me was Grandmaster Hee Il Cho, who is breathetaking to be around.

From a personal perspective, breaking my first board was a massive personal achievement as the board to me was like a switch. The switch that would build my confidence and one that made me realise that I was capable of doing anything that I set my mind on. Up until I broke that first board I had confidence issues going back to when I was bullied at school. All those thoughts and feelings disappeared after breaking that board. Ooops, sorry, I digress...

Whilst working as a Doorman I found that a lot of my TKD training wasn't applicable, which made me rethink the reasons for doing MA's in the first place. I then realised that at least 40% of my training was a complete waste of time for what I wanted it to acheive.
Although TKD was good for sport and art it was ineffective for Self Protection/Defence purposes, which made me frustrated. The 60% that did work, mainly for sport and art purposes, I kept.

My syllabus is put together in such a way that it caters for:
Sport - Sparring 45%
Art - Patterns 10%
Reality Based Self Defence 45%

I do not teach:
1 step sparring
2 step sparring
3 step sparring
Korean Terminology
TKD Self Defence (cough, cough!)

I teach TKD sparring and patterns to a national level of competetiveness, but only within my Dojang or by Private Tuition.

The RBSD that I teach to small groups and corporate classes is a condensed version of what I teach to my students as my students get more quality time with me and we have more facilities to hand. My students are graded on their RBSD skills, which progress in terms of difficulty and intensity as they progress up through the ranks.

I hope that goes some way to answer your question(s).

Note to everyone: What I do is what I do, I totally respect everyone elses view as I hope you do mine. My reply to Butterfly was to give an insight to my Academy and was not intended to offend anyone who practices in a TMA.

Take care,

Gaffer.

Hi Gaffer,

I am not offended by your post at all, but I did find it interesting.

Do you really see no value at all in 1,2 or 3 step sparing? I don't see them as the be all and end all, but I do find them a useful training/teaching tool.

Why do you choose not to teach them?

Not being argumentative, genuinly interested in your oppinion.

Maybe the Wado Oyho Gumite and Kihon Gumite are different to the way other styles do 3 step sparring. Anyone here done both?
Sharon

Ed

Good question.

Can you be more specific?

What "self defense" skills I would try and teach depends quite a bit upon where they are going and what they will be doing.

Gaffer,

Thanks for the reply.....your digression about the board breaking probably speaks more clearly to the heart of Traditional MA and its character building qualities...and plainly makes a case for traditional teaching....however, I was wondering about the "self-defense" aspects of your school....glad to hear that you teach the same materials there.

I have had similar recognitions on my part about the "my" personal experiences in TMA.

Here's hoping your new year will be great.

Regards,

-B

Wadowoman,

Didn't mean to jump into your question, but I bet Gaffer meant that his scenario training probably encompasses the idea of 1-2-3 step sparring in a more real setting.... just thought I'd offer. He can correct me if I am wrong.

Seems like an interesting and well thought out training system, but still curious about all those Korean kicks in self defense situations.

-B

CXT,
Two possiblities,

1. American College student traveling to Greece.

2. American business man traveling to Mexico city.

Ed

Hi Butterfly and Still Wadowoman,


Whilst working as a Doorman, 10 years ago, I realised that a lot of the TKD techniques that I had learnt had their limitations in the confines of a night club foyet. I began using techniques that were more effective and carried less risk in such close quarters, such as Headbutts, Elbows, Knees, Power Slaps, etc. I also used the guidance from more experienced Doormen as to which techniques worked and those that didn’t. I was also involved in a number of street fights at that time, which is a different story altogether!

During the time I worked as a Doorman I was competing at National level in TKD sparring and also on the open circuit against Kickboxers, so I was reluctant to leave traditional ITF TKD. I continued training unrealistic (for me) techniques so that I was still able to compete.

Then the opportunity came to run a traditional ITF TKD club with my two brothers, who were also competing at National level. (At one point all three of us held the British TKD Championship title for Light, Middle (me) and Heavy weight.)
Then the politics started. Our organisation wanted us to charge our students more for training, which we rebelled against by ignoring their demands. Not long after we were asked to comply or leave, so one by one, we left the organisation.

I then went into Muay Thai/Kickboxing, for 2 years, and learnt the use and effectiveness of knees, elbows and low kicks.

After that I wanted my own club to teach competitive sparring, patterns, demolition & destruction from traditional TKD and RBSD based on my experiences whilst working as a Doorman, and from taking specific techniques from TKD, Muay Thai and Judo (which I studied for 4 years before TKD).

As the syllabus was now much larger, because of the additional RBSD techniques and ways of training, I had to cut down the syllabus by taking out the least important (my view) parts of the traditional TKD syllabus.

The 1, 2 and 3 step semi-free sparring was the first to go as I do not believe that semi-free sparring is of any benefit at all. The main reason for this is that most of the attacks are performed by the attacker stepping forward with the right leg whilst punching with the right arm.
When do you ever see anyone, outside formal training, step forward and punch with the same side, ie, right leg, right arm?
And as you know, semi-free sparring is too static, no one ever moves or behaves that way in a fight, so why train like it.
I also know for a fact that one of the biggest ITF TKD organisations added semi-free sparring No.s 7, 8, 9 & 10 in a very dubious way. Three high ranking officials met in a pub (bar) for lunch and devised the last four moves because they felt that the higher grades needed something more to do!!!

Another very important thing I learnt very quickly, from working as a Doorman and also from the fights I was in, is that formal blocking doesn’t work in a fight situation. If you are quick enough, you can parry, jam or crash your opponents techniques, but formal blocking simply doesn’t work. Formal blocking just commits one of your attacking tools to do something which is inevitably happens far too late, giving your opponent another free go, in my opinion.

Lastly, I don’t teach Korean terminology. The main reason for learning Korean when training in traditional TKD was so that we could travel anywhere in the world and still be able to train as they too used Korean terminology for traditional TKD. As only 45% of our syllabus is TKD is decided against using Korean Terminology, as again, it had no function and was watering down the syllabus.

Again, these are my views based on my experience. I am where I am, and I am who I am, today because of Traditional Martial Arts. But, I am not a traditionalist by nature, and my Academy reflects that. I am lucky to have such loyal students who are, and will, take many podium places, and more importantly, they will be able to defend themselves when required. All my students have come through word-of-mouth and stay because they like it, which is important to me.

Each to their own - Horses for courses - What ever float’s ya boat. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Take care,

Gaffer.

My apologies to Ed for detracting from your original question, sorry. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Ed

Thanks!

1-Get as much info as possible as to local crime--what is going down--what types of crimes happen and most importantly WHERE.

Get as much info as possible as to the places to avoid---commen sense is the best self defense there is.

These days--I would avoid making it clear as to my nationality.

In Mexico I would make real sure that I had a trustworthy local contact to take me to the places I needed to go.

Someone that knew the local scene and can be trusted to look after me, maybe the company I was there to do business with.

In terms of actual self defense.

-Awarness training--so they don't just "zone out" walking down the street like folks often do.

-Work on close in fighting drills--if your attacked its probably going to happen fast and at close range.

-Work on some drills using HEAVY gear (bulletman etc) to get the student used to as much contact as you can.

-Heavybag work--simple, strightforeward set of punchs and kicks--probably spend some time on striking techniques with the elbows and knees.

-Probabably try to get them in some better shape--30 days is enough to build some strength and endurance--if nothing else being in better shape tends to make folks less of a target.

-Might be helpful to take a crash course on the local language.
Some Greek or some Spanish is better than nothing--might be helpful to be able to call for help or the cops.

Off the top of my head thats where I would start.

I'll give it some thought and be more specifc later.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-11-2005).]

Just to clarify on the whole broken knuckle thing. I have seen more barfights than I can count, most of them involving individuals with no experience. The only person who got hurt was the one who got hit. The only hand damage I have ever seen was done to a fist by a tooth. And that was nasty. I don't know where you grew up, but all the guys that I have ever met could throw a punch, maybe that's just cause I grew up in the country, these metro sexuals, I don't know.

Reaper

With all respect, its pretty common info that several PROFESSIONAL BOXERS have broken their hands in streetfights.

Not that big a leap to consider that non-pros might have a simlar problem.

Also fairly common knowledge that boxers hit harder than most of the untrained people that you are so quick to point out can't punch. Also many boxers don't close their hands fully in gloves because this can increase punching speed, wraps can make for lazy hands. This habit can be carried over into street fights.
I am not saying that no one has ever broken their knuckles in a street fight, but I have never seen it, or personally heard of it. Lot's of stories, no facts.
I threw my first punch at the age of ten, bare knuckled, knocked the guy out (he was ten too no great acheivement), my hand was fine. Still is, 19 years later.

www.Krav-Maga.com
there you will find a form of hand to hand combat that can be taught to profieciency quickly.

newbie here, I was actually going to mention Krav-maga. I have 2 relevant experiences to this thread. when I was in the ISraeli military, I went through a 6 week course on close quarter combat that was based on krav-maga and handgun work. we were all very fit going in, but the training was very good and in depth and made serious fighters out of us. krav-maga is a very easy system to teach people in a short time.

also, I had to teach a group of students, just out of high school, in 2 weeks, to be able to guard themselvs in a school that was on the border, and considered dangerous. this was taking people who had no experience what so ever and getting them prepared to face possible attacks. it can be done, altough granted they were going to be armed with rifles.

I would do it this way

physical - 3 times a week large muscle groups lifting - squats, lats, bench presses. 3 times core excersizes. 5 times a week 40 minutes hike, 10 minutes sprints, 20 minutes streatching. one day a week a 6 hour forces march.

training - every day one hour standing drill on basic low kicks (chambered and sweeping), boxing style punches, circular blocks, elbow and knee moves. one hour face to face with parget pads, practicing the same. one hour standing takedowns and simple judo style work. one hour floor work. one hour mixed sparing, in a ring, with the whole class watching, throwing in odd numbers of people, and mixing the pairs up. 2 hours weapons training - one hour batton, half an hour koboton, half an hour 4 foot staff (jo).

mental - 2 hour a day frontal lectures in anatamy, tactics and stratagy. 2 hours every day movies on boxing and hand to hand fighting. 2 hours every day agression games - ruby, tug of war, red rover, dodge ball.

1 day a week spend on self defence on the road, driving and getting in and our of cars.

after 2 weeks, the weapons part change to improvised weapons - work on all sorts of improvised weapons - chairs, bottles, keys, and how to use them.

work on identifying when you are followed, verbal confrontation, running away from cars, using terain in your favor, hiding from people chasing you.


if allowed, I would also spent a lot of time on tear gas and tactical battons, unless the clients will be going to places where these are not allowed.

I would put the guy in front of a TV screen for days on end with violent films - so as to reduce hesitation to use violence, Then give him some cokaine, magic mushrooms and an arsenal of weapons - tell him its a game to see how many guys he can kill then he's ready for the battlefield. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] lol

Reaper

Im surprisd that you "really" have "never heard of it."

The news reports were pretty thorough.

Plus what your basially saying is that a Pro has more trouble than some guy on the street in punching?

That makes little sense, plus it kinda flys in the face of most threads on the board as to the value of boxing training for self defense.

The more training you have, the stronger you get, the harder you punch the MORE in danger you will be?

So we should train for weak punchs??

Not trying to bag on you--honestly.

Just suggesting that YOUR personal experience may not the only experiences out there.

For example--only seen 1 guy every break his hands.

BUT, as you mentioned I have seen MANY people cut there hands up REALLY badly hitting folks in the mouth.

-Couple of really nasty infections-think in terms blood poisoning.

-Couple of badly jacked up knuckles. Knuckle is still mishapen and does not work right--5 years later

-Some major damage to the tendons (not sure if that is the correct term for the connective tissue of the hand)

But I am only going by what I have seen--your experience seems to be very different.

You have to go with what effects you.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-14-2005).]

I am not saying that boxing is bad for street combat. Some boxers are excellent fighters, you are the one who brought up the boxers with hand damage, I explained it. That's all. The fact is that if you don't close your fist and you strike with it you will do damage, unless you specifically condition it for this (without gloves and wraps).
This came up because of me saying that the majority of guys can throw a mediocre punch even without training. I apologize for the generalization. I should have said that I have, in my life, met very few heterosexual males, over the age of 14, who could not, if provoked, close their fist and deliver it to someones face hard enough for it to hurt. Along with that, as we are talking about 30 days training, it makes no difference what kind of damage it does to the hand, in a self defense situation with 30 days training you aren't going to fix his fist formation anyway, you said this yourself. So we should assume that he is able to hit harder than a 12 year old girl and teach him something of a little more consequence. Punching is the least important part of self defense. Blocking and stepping are far more important. If this individual has never been hit he is gonna go down the first time he is swung at, then it makes no difference if he can punch or not.
The fact is that you are fighting biology, 80% of people who are attacked freeze. So unless you can overcome this you might as well teach him how to play chess.

I would teach them kali......

*Inuyasha*

reaper

Gave it my best shot.

Can't argue with a guy that can't grasp what he himself posts.

Perhaps you could look up that "80 percent of people freeze" source and let us know where it actually came from???????

Cxt,
It is very common for a person to freeze, "deer in the headlight sydrome", when attacked. I do not know about percentages however.
Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 01-17-2005).]

Ed

Yeah, its common.

Thing is I don't recall any published stats on it.

None that I can trust anyway.

Reaper however seems to have access to all sort of info the rest of don't.

-Specific stats on "freezing"--(he claims 80%)

-The "majority" of folks can throw a "mediocore" punch "without training"

(what good is a "mediocre punch" and how would you meausre it?)

-"punching is the least important part of self defense... blocking and stepping are"

-"If you have never been hit he is gonna go down the first time he is swung at"

(weird--I did not "go down" in my first punch up--maybe it was beacuse the punch was "medicore?")

What he has is alot of opinion, perhaps backed up by persoanl experience, although I tend to doubt it.

Since he seems unaware of pro boxers that have broken their hands in streetfights--at least he claims he did not know it.

I was as nice as I could be about his personal experience perhaps not being the very limits of experience.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-17-2005).]

Punching the least important part of self defense? Id say that award goes to blocking.

Ok, personal experience.
Been doing martial arts for 20 years, almost 21, started when I was 8. Bounced in bars for 2 years. Was a barfly for about years. Finishing a Bsc in Psychology (that's where my 80% stat comes from). I teach sparring in a karate school, and am proud to say that I have experience in approximately 20 styles of Ma. I have been a grappler, a stand up fighter, and an aikidoza. I have been jumped by 2 guys, hit with weapons, kicked with cowboy boots, and had my elbow hyperextended (in a dojo). I have been swung at too many times to count, but I have never had to swing back,ever. Can I throw a punch, better than mediocre. Do I know anyone who can't, yes but there are either girls, or gay. I said I have never met anyone who broke their hand in a street fight, but have seen teeth pushed through. I know that some boxers do not close their hands properly, and it does make sense that this would be a feasible reason for them to break their hands, this and the fact that they hit hard and fast. When I think of self defense I don't mean fighting, no "ok me and you by the swing set after school" crap. I mean some guy is in front of you and he is swinging. No warning, no reason. Just violence. I have faced this several times, and I have walked away.
Is punching important, if what you are trying to do is fight with your agressor, yes. If you are trying to end the confrontation, no. It is more important that you don't get hit, and that you know where and when to hit to soften for a takedown, throw, or lock. Punching is beginner stuff, any monkey can punch.

Is punching a basic skill? Sure. Does that make it the least important? No. The basics were all anyone really needed to know to successfully defend themselves. Everything else is supplement. Eventually you must subdue the attacker.to do this you must either strike until their is an injury to the opponent or you must lock him up and break bones but most likely you will strike to open up that opportunity. Therefore punching plays a huge role. You arent going to do that blocking and evading. that only works for so long and lets the opponent continue his attack.

Reaper

See, when I asked for the source on the 80% I was asking for the specific place you got it.

As in the textbook you took it from, what page, the author of the text, the year it was published--that kind of thing.

Kinda need more than just your "say so" here.

"20 styles of martial arts" AT 21 YEARS OF AGE?

(13 years of training and you covered "20" styles--thats assumeing tha I even count the training you got before you were 16--which I don't.)

And you were a"barfly" as well

(what that has to do with MA escapes me)

"Either girls or gay"

(in ref to inability to throw a good punch)

Look reaper--clear that I am not getting thu here.

Also clear that a guy with your vast experience and all those styles that you know does not need any help from me.

Good luck--chances are your going to need it.

Peace.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-19-2005).]

Apparently you can't do math very well, I am 29. I have done styles simultaneously, like right now I do karate, kung fu, and tai chi. I did not say that I did all these styles to mastery, some of them I did for only a couple classes before I dismissed the instructor as an idiot, like the guy who hyperextended my elbow in his dojo. Punches are a basic for fighting, not self defense, aikido (aikiki) doesn't even really teach punching, neither does greco roman wrestling, neither does ninjitsu at least not a normal punch, neither does bisset juijitsu. Not to say that they don't have any strikes, but not punches. I don't do any punches in tai chi, or in kung fu (five animal), I do lots of strikes, but no punches.
Chen zen: to quote Anko Itosu, "Never attack a lone adversary. If one meets a villain or a ruffian one should not use tode but simply parry and step aside."
If I am going to strike, which I have said before " I have never had to" am going to use an open handed strike. The hand is not designed for punching.
cxt: I am not going to bother arguing about who can or cannot punch. I can, and I can't remember not being able to. As I stated above, I don't know any guys who can't.
Being a barfly has a huge amount to do with it. Most of the confrontations that I have been in have been in bars. Whether it be because someone thought that I was drunk, thought it would be fun to try me because I had a rep, or they thought I was someone else, or I was hitting on their girlfriend.
Whatever the case may be, alcohol breeds agression. Surely even you can't argue with this. I do have references for this.
Oh and the textbook that you were looking for is "Abnormal Psychology, Canadian Edition"
Authors Divison, Neale, Blankstein, and Flett.
John Wiley & Sons Canada, Ltd. 2002
ISBN 0-471-64631-8
And my professors name was Madelaine Ingimundson, give her a call I am sure she would love to hear from you.
She was a sweet lady gave me an A.

Reaper,
To parry your quote: "Walk softly..but carry a big stick"

Reaper

Hate to do this-but.

Ahh, dude, you left out the exact quote and page number.

Plus if I can't check the edition itself, there is no way to know if your just making that "80%" figure up or not.

So please let me exactly where I can find the "80%" figure.

(an some OTHER places I can find it would be nice)

Otherwise I can simply ignore it as "I made it up."

So your being a "barfly" means you go to a lot of bars and get in barfights??

A-How can you prove that--sounds tough and all when you claim it. But can you back it up?

(yep, I am a old barfighter from WAY back I have been getting into barfights since before you were born sonny!--see what I mean?)

B-And no, not impressed with folks stupid enough to brag about getting drunk and beating up other drunks.

Sounds childish to me.

Esp so for a guy that claims to be 29.

Sorry, that should have be 20 systems in 29 years then.

So if we take it from 8 years old--thats about 1 whole system every year.

Dude you must ROCK, not many 9 year olds can say they they have "experience" in an entire system.

And you gained "experience" with a new one each year!

Right.

Later.



[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-20-2005).]

dear cxt, do you even bother to read before you reply or do you just kinda fake it. (a) as far as page number and paragraph, you are on your own. I am not going to go through an entire textbook of over 700 pages just to find one paragraph for you from a course that I took 2 years ago. You want to know so bad buy the book and read it, who knows you might learn something.
21 was the number of years that I have been training, since I was 8, making me 29, welcome to grade 1 math.
Would you like my entire bio. At the age of 8 I started doing ninjitsu, did that for 3 years off and on, as much as you can expect most 8 year olds to focus. At the age of 11 I started doing ITF TKD and did that until I was almost 18. When I was 16 I started doing greco roman wrestling and proceeded to do that for 2 years. At the age of 20 I started doing Juijitsu and continued doing that for one year. At the age of 21 I started doing WTF TKD and shootfighting, along with JKD and Brazilian juijitsu and Kali. This was possible becuase I had two instructors that taught multiple styles. At the age of 24 I started doing aikido, yang style tai chi, and shaolin five animal kung fu. At the age of 26 I started doing shorin ryu karate. I still do tai chi and kung fu, and my sensei and I still practice aikido, as he has 10 years experience in aikido.
There that is my martial arts bio, enjoy it, mock it if you like, tell me I'm lying, whatever. But at the end of the day I'll be teaching a class, and you'll still be typing away on your computer.
Oh and one other thing, I wasn't bragging that I spent a lot of time in bars, just stating a fact. In case you missed it, I said that I have never had to hit anyone, so I certainly didn't go around beating up drunks. I have never in my life started a fight, I believe that martial arts are about resolving conflict, efficiently. I will only hit someone when the need arises, and so far that person has never come along.
I am interested to know what is your experience. I never called you "sonny", as you insinuated that I was trying to condescend to you based on your age, I don't know your age, but you seem to be a little sensitive about it. Something to hide? Been doing martial arts for about a month? Since your 14th birthday last week? What's your baggage?

Reaper

Depends of it the topic is interesting or someone just jacking around.

Kinda like you taking the time to provide massive detail about the text---but somehow NOT providing the actual details needed to check your story.

ie, your just jacking around.

Plus "700 pages" from a course you took "2 years ago"--and you remember the exact percentage?

See thats a contridiction--your pleading time and distance somehow make it hard to find--BUT your ALSO claiming that your memory is good enough to quote from.

(heck you "remembered" the ISB number--you trying to tell me you got that from "memory?")

By the way, one of the authors names you posted is spelled wrong--Its actually spelt "Davison" NOT "Divison."

Not saying your lying--would say that your spinning.

You claim "experience" in about 1 new style per year for the past 20 years--more of less.

What you have posted indicates that you didn't stay long enough in most of them to gain any real skill--or you took then at such a young age AND HAVE MADE NO MENTION OF KEEPING UP THE SKILLS--that you "really" don't have quite the skills you claim.

Called "puffery" in my book.

How in gods name do you expect me to buy that you can keep up skills in 20 different arts??

Heck just for the sake of arguement, explain to me why I should be impressed that you "did ninjitsu" for "3 years on and off" when you were 8?

Seems to impress you--your still counting it as part of your ma "bio."

When you apply for a job do you include the Grade School you went to?


As a general rule I am deeply suspcious of anyone claiming experience in 12 or more systems at age 29--and you claim experience in 20.

20!!!!!

What you have posted as your "bio" just supports my gut reaction.

Now your saying that your "NEVER HAD TO HIT ANYONE" (in bars) so your spin earlier about being a "barfly" means what??

You maybe watch a lot of fights??

Dude, you SO "were bragging" about being a "barfly" and you did so to make yourself look sound tough and to add weight to your points.

By the way, just a suggestion,--don't point fingers at folks for not reading posts when you don't do so yourself.

If you actually took the time to read what I wrote you would understand that the "sonny" you have your panties all in a twist about was an example of how easy it is to make all sorts of crazy on-line claims.

Did not actually "call you sonny" at all.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-20-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-20-2005).]

What's barfly?
Sharon [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

Sharon,

Just watching the fireworks, but a barfly is usually one who sits in a bar all the time and uses up the day drinking...usually older, no job and just enough cash for his/her next drink and a few cigarettes. Not a kind description.

-B

You know nothing of me, and you know nothing of who I am or what I know. I have the book sitting on my shelf, but as I said I am not going to go through the whole damn thing to find page and paragraph for you. For starters I never said "80%", it might have been 79.5% or 81%. The ISBN # is written in the front of the book, but answers to questions asked by guys who are looking to start arguments is not a section in the index.
You are right butterfly, barfly is not a flattering term, certainly not one that someone would be bragging about in the context of their own life.
You seem to have forgotten where this topic came from, I told you in all the fights that I had seen I had never "seen" anyone break a knuckle. Not that I had been in lots of fights. I pride myself on not being enough of a loser to get into fights. I have thrown lots of guys out of bars, and been swung at lots of times, but I have never had to hit anyone back. That is all I said.
Martial arts are all the same in essence, they can be reduced to body mechanics, timing, distance, instinct, and footwork.
What I did in one style I did in another, sometimes in the middle, sometimes in the beginning, sometimes I watched other people do it for advanced techniques. No I don't practise all the techniques that I have ever learned, that would be a waste of time and energy, I practise all the techniques that I know work. All the techniques that mesh together. All the techniques that are natural and flow for me. The rest I leave for someone else, they might work for them. I still do the same armbar when I am on the ground that I learned in ninjitsu when I was eight, but now I have a counter for it too, and now I have more ways of getting the person there, if I want them there. The human body only has so many parts, and you can only formulate so many attacks with those parts. And only so many defences to those attacks are neccesary. Some work better than others for specific people, I steal the ones that work for me, and I practice them, every day, 1-5 hours a day. And I will continue to do this till the day I die.
I didn't come here to argue, I didn't come here to lie, I came here to offer my opinion on something that has been part of my life for as long as I can remember. If you didn't like my opinion you could have ignored me, you could have agreed to disagree, but instead you chose to make a personal attack on someone that you never met, and probably never will. There is a very elementary lesson you need to learn, respect.
Goodbye.


[This message has been edited by reaperblack (edited 01-23-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:
Reaper

Depends of it the topic is interesting or someone just jacking around.

Kinda like you taking the time to provide massive detail about the text---but somehow NOT providing the actual details needed to check your story.

ie, your just jacking around.

Plus "700 pages" from a course you took "2 years ago"--and you remember the exact percentage?

See thats a contridiction--your pleading time and distance somehow make it hard to find--BUT your ALSO claiming that your memory is good enough to quote from.

(heck you "remembered" the ISB number--you trying to tell me you got that from "memory?")

By the way, one of the authors names you posted is spelled wrong--Its actually spelt "Davison" NOT "Divison."

Not saying your lying--would say that your spinning.

You claim "experience" in about 1 new style per year for the past 20 years--more of less.

What you have posted indicates that you didn't stay long enough in most of them to gain any real skill--or you took then at such a young age AND HAVE MADE NO MENTION OF KEEPING UP THE SKILLS--that you "really" don't have quite the skills you claim.

Called "puffery" in my book.

How in gods name do you expect me to buy that you can keep up skills in 20 different arts??

Heck just for the sake of arguement, explain to me why I should be impressed that you "did ninjitsu" for "3 years on and off" when you were 8?

Seems to impress you--your still counting it as part of your ma "bio."

When you apply for a job do you include the Grade School you went to?


As a general rule I am deeply suspcious of anyone claiming experience in 12 or more systems at age 29--and you claim experience in 20.

20!!!!!

What you have posted as your "bio" just supports my gut reaction.

Now your saying that your "NEVER HAD TO HIT ANYONE" (in bars) so your spin earlier about being a "barfly" means what??

You maybe watch a lot of fights??

Dude, you SO "were bragging" about being a "barfly" and you did so to make yourself look sound tough and to add weight to your points.

By the way, just a suggestion,--don't point fingers at folks for not reading posts when you don't do so yourself.

If you actually took the time to read what I wrote you would understand that the "sonny" you have your panties all in a twist about was an example of how easy it is to make all sorts of crazy on-line claims.

Did not actually "call you sonny" at all.

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-20-2005).]

[This message has been edited by cxt (edited 01-20-2005).][/QUOTE]

I give up, you win, I have never even taken a class before, I have no idea what a dojo is, or maia, I don't know my chodan from my soto, or anything between ha-na and set in that other funny language. I have never heard of Wu Xing Quan, much less practiced He Xing or Hu Xing. I have no idea what I just said.
You are right there is now way that someone could learn how to throw a punch or block as a child and still be practicing it in a different style later in life. Obviously I must have been drunk again. After all with two arms, two legs, and a head to use as weapons the combinations must be endless. I am sure that you probably can punch in zig zags. Maybe someday I'll learn the no touch knockout too.
I can't help but notice while you were saying that I was "spinning", which is just a cowards way of saying lying, that you weren't willing to offer your experience to show why you had any more credibility than I do. It's not in your profile. I at least told you that the longest I had ever practised one style is 7 years. At no point did I ever state that I was a master, or claim to know it all, only that I had never "seen" anyone break their hand in a street fight, or heard any credible stories about it. Other than of course from you. This is a statement of my personal experience, or lack therof, on this topic.
As far as the barfly comment, no this not a flattering term, certainly not one that I would use to brag about a particular time in my life, but I learned from it, and it made be a better person. Yes i drank, yes I spent an abundance of time in bars, but I still had a job, it just happened to be in the restaraunt attached to the bar. Now I don't even drink, not that that is anyones business but mine. The point was that I had seen lots of fights, and none of them ended with broken knuckles.

Ps. Sorry for hijacking your forum Ed, that was not my intent.
Roger