Most effective martial art for small females?

Hi, I'm looking for some advice on what martial art to study. I am a small female - 5ft tall, about 115 lbs, so the chances that I will be bigger or stronger than anyone who might jump me are nil. I am wondering what kinds of martial arts would best offset this disadvantage, and be practical and applicable in the context of getting jumped on the street. Also, I know that martial arts take time and dedication to learn, but in the spirit of practicality, I'm looking or something that won't require years of training before I can defend myself successfully. Any suggestions? Thx!

SCARS. Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SuzyQ:
Hi, I'm looking for some advice on what martial art to study. I am a small female - 5ft tall, about 115 lbs, so the chances that I will be bigger or stronger than anyone who might jump me are nil. I am wondering what kinds of martial arts would best offset this disadvantage, and be practical and applicable in the context of getting jumped on the street. Also, I know that martial arts take time and dedication to learn, but in the spirit of practicality, I'm looking or something that won't require years of training before I can defend myself successfully. Any suggestions? Thx![/QUOTE]

Try various martial arts to see one which suits you. I would recommend aikido as strength plays little or no part in the self defence aspect. It focusses on redirecting the opponents attack by blending with it rather than meeting force with force. We have many females practice in our dojo and one of our sensei's who's 5th Dan is just under 5' and is a skinny as anything!

Whatever anyone says, to be a competent martial artist who can defend themselves adequately requires much practice, patience and is a continual learning process. I would not recommend learning a martial art for a quick fix, it won't work.

Chanters [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by Chanters (edited 11-22-2004).]

Aikido. Bottom line.

I say this truthfully and void of ego. The only unarmed female I would ever be afraid of ( referring to what style they were trained in ) would be an Aikido student. Of course, as Chanters said.. you're going to have to train vigorously no matter what style you take to get good at it and stay that way.

[This message has been edited by Drakar (edited 11-22-2004).]

Suzie,
The best form of fighting I have found for "small" fighters is Wing Chun. I am a 5'9" male weighing 160 lbs and when I first started training in Wing Chun, I was working out with a 16 yr old girl who weighed 115 lbs and stood 5' tall. She had only been training 1 yr, but she beat me with no problem.
Wing Chun is up-close fighting and uses your opponets size and weight to manipulate them. Follow thislink. Go to Wing Chun in motion for an example of the applications. http://www.wingchun.com/index.html
I think you may enjoy this art if you can find a good school in your area. Let me know if this helps. Feel free to email me with questions. Bungle628@yahoo.com />-Dan

The best MA for a small female,Is Isshin ryu & or Kobayatsi Shorin ryu.

One Heart,One Style. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

If you're going with a grappling style I'd go with judo. Even though my art is a hybrid between thaiboxing and bjj I think judo is more effective street-wise.

Being a smaller woman you will want to focus on arts which will help you escape from a grab or hold, (Judo/jitsu, Aikido and the like), and help you be mean enough to do so in a manner which will help your assailant towards the decision to desist his attack. A man will likely not start a stand up "put up your dukes" fight with you. He'll want to either grab you and bring you to his van down by the river or take your purse/handbag and boogie outta there. Ergo a stand up fighting style is not necessarily your best choice as all things being equal, the bigger guy wins. Focus on something that will help you escape, and find a place that has enough of an emphasis on practicality/street self defense that they let you "-jitsu up the -do" a little bit. A neat release move is all cute and nice in the street unless you finish it w/ something to encourage a cessation of hostilities and enable you to get the he| | out of dodge.

Wing Chun is cool, and can be quite effective, but I don't think it would be appropriate for the the context you're looking for.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SuzyQ:
A guy friend (who does not study martial arts but has been in lots of fights) was telling me that it would be best for me to learn a grappling technique ... At the same time, I just can't imagine sucessfully wrestling with a guy bigger and stronger than myself, can grappling really work on a larger opponent? My friend suggrested Brazillan Ju Jitsu, I'd love to know what you all as martial artists, think about this. [/QUOTE]

Having a wife that is small I would not want her wrestling around on the ground with a larger man. Knowing grappling or not ... SHE'D LOOSE. I grapple with people in my class and being physically stronger than most I can usually over power them and I am not huge just work with weights.

I think Orion's suggestion of a self-defence program that teaches dirty tricks would be much more useful and logical. The problem might be to find such a course. You'd probably have to look around a bit. Just remember, to protect yourself anything goes. Bite, scratch, urinate, spit, groin shots, elbows ... anything. It's your life to protect.

Commenting on Drakar,
I have studied Wing Chun for 7 years now. When I was first introduced to the art, It was demonstrated to me by the same girl who "beat me up". I was a boxer of 6 years prior to Wing Chun. Now if little girl could stop a fast right hook, and still defend herself against a bigger opponent, that must say something about the art. It's all about the angle.
She was not strong, nor large, just knew her art. Now, I'm not sounding rude either(just humble) buy I have not seen Aikido successfully used against Wing Chun. Yes, this is an up-close, in your face fighting stlye(WC). But let's look at the applications, in Wing Chun, you train to NEVER be on the ground. There are cases when you will be however, and yes, Wing Chun can be used effectivly. But why would you want to stundy an art that is wrestling based(or so it seems)? To fight effectivly, you must have good balance. Being off your feet doesn't do you any good.

I have worked out with many styles that have come into the class. I have yet to see an art as effective. I'm not knocking ANY style. You should always choose one that works best for you. Any art can defend an attacker if the tech. is used properly.

Suzy, check out several different arts before making a choice. Hope this helps.

All due respect to fellow artists.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drakar:
Sifu, you are wrong. Please re-research Wing Chun.

Wing Chun ( the girl ) learned White Crane from Ng Mui ( also a girl ) when she was fifteen to defend herself against a bully who was trying to force her to marry him. She challenged the bully to a fight and won. Then she got married to Leung Bok Chau and taught him the Kung Fu she learned from Ng Mui. He then taught it to Leung Lan Kwai. The style may have been named after her but she certainly did not come up with the idea. Not to mention the outrageous claim that the Wing Chun style was developed specifically for smaller girls to defend themselves against bigger guys. Wing Chun is a variation of White Crane. She didn't really design anything...
[/QUOTE]

The style originally taught to Wing Chun was not pure crane, but a modified system that used all of the most effective techniques available for a larger opponent. Go to www.shaolin.com and click the Wing Chun link for the most commonly accepted version of the story. When Ng Mui adapted Shaolin Kung Fu into this new style, that was the true origin of Wing Chun, not when her husband named it after her. Either way, it was still taught by a woman to a woman, which shows that a woman can do it effectively.

P.S. Wing Chun wasn't my first recommendation, if you notice, it was Chin Na or Aikido.

Suzy,

Go with your gut. Check out BJJ and see if you like it. If the instructor is good, he'll teach you alot more than ground grappling. You'll learn to stay on your feet, disengage and escape and you'll learn it while practicing against a resisting opponent from day one.

If you don't like it, feel free to try Wing Chun or Aikido or SCARS or whatever anyone else recommends. But try the BJJ and make up your own mind. Don't commit to anything based on what you read on the internet.

Hi SuzyQ, just when you thought you couldn't get any more conflicting advice....

My advice would be to go for a striking art first, so that you can strike effectivly without damaging yourself.

Whilst continuing with a striking art look into a concept called The Shredder. ( http://www.senshido.com/)
The Shredder is a concept that can be incorporated into any style and is fantastic, especially for women.

The Shredder Package (Vid or DVD) is well worth the money, I promise.

Take care,

Gaffer.

[This message has been edited by Gaffer (edited 11-23-2004).]

While I am sure that all the martial arts are good, Aikido as well as the others take a long time to get good. Brazillian Jujutsu takes the shortest out of the martial arts to learn and it does deal with the ground aspect of fighting well. But..blue belts are allowed to teach so all schools are not alike and some are hard core. Look for a womens only group like Gracie Academy in Miami...no guys allowed. Then when you get skills you can roll with the guys and not feel overwhelmed. www.scars.com is a good course that will fill the requirments that you have set forth. A tad expensive and non traditional it only takes but a few weeks to learn something to protect yourself. You do not have to box your attacker like most people suggest.(senshido). Hit me with your 115 lb fist and I will laugh. Get my point. Most MA will teach you to punch, you'll just break your fists so stay away from the sports. My advise to you. Ed

First let me repeat what I said.

ANY style of martial arts can be used effectively. Some make it harder some make it easier. To me... being a female boxer trying to fight a bigger guy would be harder. Does that mean she wouldn't win? Not at all. But the risks are higher.

Aikdo is not wrestling based. Aikido is momentum/balance/energy based. It's much easier for a girl to put a guy on the ground with an Aikido move than it is with a punch or a tacke. Trust me.

About Wing Chun. Yes, you are right, it was modified White Crane. Yes, you are right, it was modified by a girl to suit a girl. But it wasn't MADE for a girl. It was a girl using another style of martial arts then taking from experience what happened to work best for her. This would be like a girl teaching another girl karate.. and the girl gets good at karate then says "Well i've taken what works best for me in Karate and i'm a girl so this is a female based system." It's still Karate.. it just so happens that a girl modified it to fit her needs. Everyone modifies the style to fit their needs. That doesn't mean we should all go call them our own. Just because it was modified for a girl also doesn't mean it's good for a girl. As I was saying.. it wasn't originally MADE for a girl. It was White Crane that a girl modified to suit her needs. This can be done with ANY style of martial arts. A girl can modify wrestling to suit her needs.. then if she passed it on to another girl she could say that it was a modification for a girl. The most important factor is, the original style (White Crane) was not developed with women in mind. It was developed with men in mind, then Ng Mui just used it to the best of her ability. So did the girl who used wrestling.. but should we go around suggesting wrestling to girls just because "That modification was developed by a girl." ? No. Wrestling has a lot to do with strength and size. Both things that work against a girl. So keep that in mind when you say a style must be good for a girl because it was modified by a girl.

A factory decorated by a girl may suit a girl better than a factory not decorated by a girl. But a factory in general is not the most suitable place for a girl. Do you get what i'm trying to say?

Hi Suzy Q,

My advice would be to forget about the gender thing.

Just as no one martial art is best for all men, no one martial art is best for all females (or even all small females).

I reccomend visiting several dojos/dojangs/gyms in your area and pick at least two where you think you would feel comfortable. Talk to the instructor and, if possible the other students. Have a couple of lessons at each one on your shortlist and then decide.

Avoid signing contracts and paying lots of money upfront. Don't consider joining a school/club where you do not feel comfortable with the instructor and/or the other students.

Don't be put off if everyone else there is quite experienced and you can't "do it", remember that neither could they when they started. If it is a good group, everyone will be too concerned with improving themselves to critisize what you are doing (one of the biggest and most unnecessary worries for beginners).

Lastly, don't be put off by mostly male groups. Most martial arts are dominated by men for a number of reasons, that doesn't mean females can't join in. A good instructor will help you adapt techniques for your size and strength. You will not be expected to be as strong as the men, just to train as hard.

Good luck finding the right art for you. Let us know how you get on.
Sharon

Suzy, have a look at the "Choosing a Martial Art" and "Choosing a School" sections of this document.

Also remember that whatever you do end up doing, you need to enjoy it if you're going to stick at it. In many ways, that's more important than the perceived "utility" of what you train - the best art in the world is no good to you if you hate training, and jack it in after a few months.

Don't get fixated on one style - it's quite common to decide to do one thing, and then find that it's not what you thought it was. Don't give up if it doesn't work out - lots of people try a martial art, find it doesn't suit and then never try another one again.

Whatever you do do, always test what you learn if your goal is utility - do the defenses against wrist grabs/bear hugs etc work on someone who's not from your class, for example? (Assuming you have understanding friends who'll let you use them as grappling dummies, that is [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ).

Above all, use your common sense, and don't buy into something just because it's the latest thing, or equally well, just because it's "traditional".

Good luck - and post back with your experiences, if you get chance.

[This message has been edited by John_C (edited 11-23-2004).]

[QUOTE]Don't commit to anything based on what you read on the internet.[/QUOTE]

Smartest advice I'd seen on this forum yet. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Listen to still Wadowoman. She's a tiny lass herself and probably has slightly better insight then us lunkheads. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
...Hit me with your 115 lb fist and I will laugh. [/QUOTE]
But if she jabbed you in the eye with one finger you'd cry!

Btw, my reference to Senshido was specifically regarding The Shredder.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
...Most MA will teach you to punch, you'll just break your fists so stay away from the sports... [/QUOTE]
That, in my opinion, is a very arrogant and narrowminded statement. There's a lot more to MA's than fists!

Take care,

Gaffer.



[This message has been edited by Gaffer (edited 11-23-2004).]

Nice try. Ed

QUOTE:
"It's still Karate.."
-Wing Chun is NOTHING like Karate, I don't see a close comparison.
"Everyone modifies the style to fit their needs."
-Ok, you don't "modify" any art. You apply what you learn. Modification of your training doesn't help at all.

I don't know man, a 115lbs fist would be frickin' HUGE!

Wadowwoman is wrong in a general sense. There are certain styles that are better for women because they were designed with them in mind. Aikido may not be made for women, but it was designed to be used in the absense of strength and size, so i'd say indirectly it was designed for women.

I don't believe a girl knows what's best for other girls just because she's female. Would you take advice from a guy just because he's a guy? Hell no. As far as strength and size goes, i'm 5'8 125lbs.. so I can understand being small and physically weak just as well as anyone else.

With this I mean no-offense to you traditional MA and grapplers. I'm sure your arts are great for you. But she's a tiny (no offense SuzyO) women. If a rapist attacks her he won't be circling around her exchanging punches. He will come for you fast and hard cause he enjoys what he's doing. If you go to the ground he will to some degree grapple with you, but as soon as he feels that you're putting up too much of a fight he will start punching you and trust me for a women your size they will hurt you badly and completley disorient you for a while. There's only one girl in my class and she only appears now and then and she's very tough and respected but she just can't compete with a guys strength.

Find something that teaches you how to hurt the bastard and get away quickly. Thai boxing, wing chun, judo etc won't teach you how to do this. Learn how to use your keys to sratch his face out, learn how to kick him in the groin, learn how to bit his nose off.

And if you join something make sure they train hard, train outside now and again, train diffrent scenarios like a rape, car jacking etc.

I don't know all the defense programs but joing something that's just not three weeks and then you don't train again for years. Join something that allowed you to train and keeps your body fit and the knowledge fresh.

That is true, a smaller man does have more of a sense of being physically smaller than other people, and can have a better understanding of using a technique from a physically subordinate position but they do have a completely (speaking from an generally American-centric viewpoint) different socialization then women do.

Very valid point on the size issue, but I wasn't very clear in what I meant, which was a woman would have (generally) better insight into what a woman would need than a man because she understands all of the non-physical elements as well. Women just aren't brought up to think "If I get in a fight, I'll frickin' kill the guy". (At least for the most part. There are always exceptions.) [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

As far as a 2 week course in self-defense, while they can (and the better ones do) teach great concepts and techniques centered around self-defense, I don't feel that they adequately prepare a person for a self-defense situation that may occur 6 months or a year or 5 years after the course. Taking a golf lesson from Tiger Woods' coach for 2 weeks will not prepare you to golf a year later. You simply need to repeat the motions more frequently then that.

Ooh. It'd be cool if you could do a women's self-defense course annually, or semi-annually. Then you learn what you need to defend yourself, and get to do it regularly enough to not forget everything you learned.

And as far as a 115# woman not being able to defend herself w/ sport MA, an ex of mine (OK, so she weighed 120#) once fractured a guys femur w/ a back leg round kick that she learned while getting her BB in TKD. It was a bigger guy in her HS that wouldn't let her leave the bonfire until he got a kiss and had her in a bear hug against her wishes. She warned him to let her go, he got more frisky, and according to her actually said "what are you gonna do about it?", then she suggested he drop her w/ a hammerfist to the boys and threw the kick as she landed and then she ran. So, a smaller gal can be capable of hitting w/ enough power to stop a larger man, at least enough to let her vacate the situation.

Of course, she was an exceptional athlete all around and another example of "It's not the art it's the artist" so I'm not trying to say that every little lady will always stop every big mean man, but the possibility is always there.

You would think that there would be some consistency with all these responses, eh Suzy? Tis is why I said not to commit based on what you read on the internet.

Some things to think about though:

1. Joining a womens only class. Depends on your mindset and attitude. It is my opinion that those type of classes are either to get your feet wet or are designed as a way to make the training less threatening. If you need a lower intensity intro, fine. But how often might you face another femle threat on the street as opposed to a bigger and stronger male?

2. On choosing Aikido for Self Defense. Aikido is beautiful to watch. It is however, very much coordinated with cooperation in mind as far as the majority of the training, especially for the first few years.

3. On a Womens Self Defense course. It will likely give you some ideas of where to start. It will not likely be in depth or comprehensive due to the time limitations and the goals and attention span of the target audience.

4. Make up your own mind. I think I am right and Ed is wrong (as usual) but I am sure he feels the same way about me. This is a forum with a wide range of experience and opinions.

Draker,

I take your point, but you can't dismiss styles that were not designed for women.
There are so many variations in each style.

Some karate instuctors, for example, focus on competition techniques, some on the combat aspect and others on the traditions and philosophy. Some are more experienced/knoledgable than others and better equiped to help the students use their training in a realistic manner.

I know several wado instructors. None of us have exactly the same emphasis in our lessons.

Suzy,
Go visit/train in a few and make your own mind up.
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SifuSkyler:
Take marksmanship and gun safety then get a weapons permit, lol. I kid, I kid. I would honestly say Chin Na/Aikido or Wing Chun. Despite what Drakkar pointed out about the in-fighting, Wing Chun was actually originally designed by a Shaolin nun, to be used by a small female on a larger male opponent. Look up the story of Wing Chun (her name) in Chinese martial history. It's a pretty good tale.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the gun idea has merit. Check local ordnances and find out the legality of it in your area. Then get trained, it won't take years of study and practice. The gun is the "great equalizer" and is used for good purposes many many many times more often than bad. It's just another tool which can be used or abused.
In the mean time, learn to fight dirty as someone else suggested... It's always good to know that.

Dan

QUOTE:

"Find something that teaches you how to hurt the bastard and get away quickly. Thai boxing, wing chun, judo etc won't teach you how to do this."

I disagree with this. Wing Chun teaches specific strikes. i.e. trac. punches, eye stikes, knee strikes, groin strikes, etc.

We train to dismantle. We don't care about the opponet. Deeper training will teach how to break, or disable an opponet. Believe me, this is not what anyone wants, but if it comes down to it, I want to stop my attacker at all costs. This is life, not the movies. If I have to break an airway to get away from an attacker, I will. We learn direct hits to, again, dismantle.

I don't know if any of the responses are from law enforcement officials, but I do have two police officers in my class who have infact injured people due to fights. It's very unfortunate, but this is life. We need to protect ourselves at all costs.

Unfortunately, police officers are like everyone else. They train in all kinds of different things for their own different reasons. One reason why I don't bother mentioning how many I train. It is not a seal of approval.

No offense to bungle.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drakar:
Sifu, you are wrong. Please re-research Wing Chun.

Wing Chun ( the girl ) learned White Crane from Ng Mui ( also a girl ) when she was fifteen to defend herself against a bully who was trying to force her to marry him. She challenged the bully to a fight and won. Then she got married to Leung Bok Chau and taught him the Kung Fu she learned from Ng Mui. He then taught it to Leung Lan Kwai. The style may have been named after her but she certainly did not come up with the idea. Not to mention the outrageous claim that the Wing Chun style was developed specifically for smaller girls to defend themselves against bigger guys. Wing Chun is a variation of White Crane. She didn't really design anything...


Wing Chun can be made effective for any size/gender. But why put the extra effort and take the extra risk to make Wing Chun effective? Do you think that Miss Yim Wing Chun would have taken White Crane if Aikido was available? I doubt it!

[This message has been edited by Drakar (edited 11-22-2004).][/QUOTE]

What made you think that there were no throws / joint-locks / ground-work in White Crane?

No matter what style a male or female (big, medium or small) trains in, the most important aspect is still the ability to act / fight under life & death pressure. The phrase 'frozen with fear' means exactly what it says and it is borne out of real life-experience. Soldiers in mortal combat will truely understand it. The only time I've personally experienced this was way back in 1969 when racial riots erupted in my country. I slept fitfully with a gun in my hand and a cold 'freezing' feeling washed over you every time a noise was heard. All your training will be 'frozen' when you are all alone and in front of you is this menacing evil looking figure with a knife or machete in his tatooed hand. Men, out of sheer desperation and perhaps ego can still summon a presence of mind to put up a good fight. But a small female, even if well trained?

Lets assume that this well-trained female put up a fight in whatever style. Sooner or later she will have to poke him in the eye. It is alright to pretend to poke your sparring partner in the eye in the dojo. But how many female I wonder have the counter-intuitive courage to actually stick a finger into another human being's eye? I like to hear from anyone, male or female, who has done it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ButterflyPalm:


Lets assume that this well-trained female put up a fight in whatever style. Sooner or later she will have to poke him in the eye.
[/QUOTE]

Why will she have to poke him in the eye?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ButterflyPalm:

It is alright to pretend to poke your sparring partner in the eye in the dojo. But how many female I wonder have the counter-intuitive courage to actually stick a finger into another human being's eye?
[/QUOTE]


Agreed, but being female is not the reason. Why do you think a female is any less capable of this than a male? Courage is not limited to gender and neither is ability.

The only difference between males and females is size and strength. Would you underestimate a small but well trained man in the same way?

Females are not a different species.
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by still wadowoman:
Why will she have to poke him in the eye?[/QUOTE]

She will because this is TEH STREET, and presumably she's not opted to kick him in the nads or punch his throat, the other parts of the holy trinity of street fighting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SuzyQ:
Hi, I'm looking for some advice on what martial art to study. I am a small female - 5ft tall, about 115 lbs, so the chances that I will be bigger or stronger than anyone who might jump me are nil. I am wondering what kinds of martial arts would best offset this disadvantage, and be practical and applicable in the context of getting jumped on the street. Also, I know that martial arts take time and dedication to learn, but in the spirit of practicality, I'm looking or something that won't require years of training before I can defend myself successfully. Any suggestions? Thx![/QUOTE]
Hello SuzyQ, Please allow me to answer your question. A women or a man who is small in stature needs the same basic self-defense training as any one else. There will always be someone bigger and stronger if you look for them. The basic skills needed are aggression (the ability to become aggressive when aggression is needed, not necessarily living aggressively), Speed, simple basic and offensive (versus defensive)technique, and some strength training. Defensive training is used to avoid the initial blow or escape the initial grab if it is successful, after that it is all aggression on your part, attacking vulnerable areas of your attacker doesn't require much strength but the stronger you are the better you will be able to work. The basic techniques from boxing and muythai, open hand strikes and some type of grappling as in judo, wrestling or jiu-jitsu. I know this sounds like a lot but it isn't really. The basis are all you need, good solid basics constantly practiced. You can visit many schools one school at a time or try this site if I may suggest it. http://www.combat1.org. This is my site and I post monthly training technique for self-defense and exercise as well as a book that is free as a download. Actually the training page is free and changes each month. With a friend or a group of friends you can download and train free. I hope it helps. Please feel free to let me know.

Amen..now let us pray...Ed

I wonder if they practice the "cross" block?

Not effective against spears, though. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


*ALL IN GOOD FUN AND JEST*

Still Wadowoman.

First an off topic question. I assume you pracitce Wado Ryu. What does Wado means?

Your question:-

1. Why she needs to poke him in the eye.

Because most ill-intentioned men attack women with a surprised bear-hug grap -- front or back; men generally do not start a fight with a woman with a punch or a kick; why the need to hurt a pretty face and have blood running down her nose? Strange men do not pick a fight with a woman just for the fun of it. What happens in the normal traditional dojos (not female-focused self-defence clases) are male-orientated fighting. The assailant is now way too close for you to execute effectively a fist or open hand technique; both his hands are now locked around her body; generation of enough fist / open hand knock-out power by a female at short range is not generally available to women who are not training for the professional fighting ring. Men who decide to attack women will have enough adrenaline pumping in their veins to take the temporary pain of a punch in the face or body. He won't even notice it as his intention is entirely focused elsewhere. (people who are shot with a bullet in non-vital parts of the body can still walk to a hospital) A kick or knee-up to the groin? First the front part of the trousers actually cushions off some of the power; Even if she could do it at such close-up range, the pain (which all of us who have experienced it in sparring or sports like rugby knows will pass in a couple of seconds; the groin-clutching & writhing on the ground in the movies do not happen) will only enrage him more and he will be more careful now. A poke or a thump-press in the eye requires the minimum of strength (especially with a bit of nail) but have the maximum of show-stopping power. He will have to let you go to take care of his eye and thinking, **** am I going blind? Meanwhile if the woman has any sense at all should not stand around and ask sympathetically -- 'are you all right?' How does it feel when a small grain of sand got blown into your eye? Imagine a whole finger or thump in there. You may, out of humanitarian reasons, want to try other things first (perhaps a strike to the throat) but I said in my post sooner or later it comes down to this because it is SURE to work. The sooner the better because the last thing you want him to know is that you have some MA training as it will put him on his guard; whether he will now leave you alone is speculative. I as a man trained in a variety of MA for over 30 years will consider eye-poking, and run; the old chinese saying -- 'there are 36 strategic methods of combat and the best among them is to run' I am a great believer of ancient wisdom. I have no inclination to trade punch for punch with anybody and certainly have no taste for wrestling a sweaty, smelly stranger on the ground and worst still got bitten by a HIV positive maniac, do you? I do not let my ego get in the way; I want to go home to my wife and kid and have dinner with them, after I've made a police report.

2. Female less capable of poking someone in the eye?

I am sure there are females who can or have done lots of difficult things (eating life cockroaches & worms, swimming with crocodiles & snakes, discover radioactivity, climb Mount Everest, murder their husbands etc.) But we are here talking about the average Jane Doe who probaly works in an office environment by day and who wants to acquire enough self-defence methods to save her life or modesty and will meet such a situation at most once in a life-time. To be efficient enough to use effectively all the other MA techniques requires such a long period of hard training even for dedicated men. Seriously, to hurt someone enough to end the fight permanently requires you to toughen your hands to the point of having callouses, and the bottom-line of grappling / joint-manipulation requires plenty of strength in a full resistance situation; I am not being unduly critical, but many of the moves in say Aikido do not work in a full resistance situation or where you or your opponents' feet happens not to be in the right place at the right time. Before all Aikidoist jump on me, try full resistance and shift your feet and weight around in the "wrong" way and see what happens in your next class; and one more thing, what do you do with the other hand which is free?

I am still waiting for someone, male, female or hermaphrodite, who has in a real fight situation poke someone in the eye.

3. Females a different species? less couragous?

I am not talking about the physical, emotional, mental courage of exceptional women, perhaps like yourself who are MA instructress; because we have many wimpy men too. But the ability and courage of an average Jane Doe who is asked to stick a finger into a man's eye.

Different species? Have a male poodle fight a female rottweiller and tell me the result. It is not about different species but all about innate differentiation of character.

4. Small men?

Small men can be very strong and fight well; look at Mike Tyson who have floored many bigger boxers. In all my postings, I've never considered size important (therefore a finger can cause far more damage than a fist) but the different innate combat efficiencies of male and female human. Big strong girls therefore do not necessarily fight well conventionally; a man may be intimidated, but can still win a fight with a big girl; unless she pokes him in the eye.

[This message has been edited by ButterflyPalm (edited 11-25-2004).]

[This message has been edited by ButterflyPalm (edited 11-25-2004).]

Butterfly

Wado means peace and harmony, but I don't see the relevance.

I am not going to argue with your post as I feel sure you have made up your mind and will not change it.

A question for you though if I may; Have you trained with high ranking women? I am assuming not because you seem to have no idea what they are capable of.
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orion:
Learn how to use your keys to sratch his face out, learn how to kick him in the groin, learn how to bit his nose off.
[/QUOTE]

I'd serious warn against using biting as a technique in self defence. The attacker may have HIV or AIDS and if you have a even tiny cut in your mouth or on your lips, and you bite hard enough to make him bleed, you're in trouble.

And how do you learn how to bite someones nose off anyway? I'd love to visit the places that practice that!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Damn you're righ, I forgot about that Chanters. And yeah they're places that teaches that...sweet ain't it. I think it mostly depends on how hard-core the instructors. A friend of mine told me about it. Said her instructor told her if the attacker was on top of you she should just lean up and bit it really really hard then sort of pull it with her teeth to the right.

I pretty much agree with ButterflyPalm. In addition to the first half of his reply; the eyes are the only organ in the body that is directly connected to the brain, hence it being such a good target for someone with thin fingers and/or nails.

Has anyone here looked into The Shredder (And I don't mean read a couple of lines from somewhere and disregarded it)?
IMO the Shredder - which is a concept and can be used with any delivery system (MA style) - is superb for women. A review of the London Shredder Course can be seen here: http://www.urbancombatives.com/

Take care,

Gaffer.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by still wadowoman:
Butterfly

Wado means peace and harmony, but I don't see the relevance.

I am not going to argue with your post as I feel sure you have made up your mind and will not change it.

A question for you though if I may; Have you trained with high ranking women? I am assuming not because you seem to have no idea what they are capable of.
Sharon

[/QUOTE]

The meaning of Wado is, as I said, an off-topic question. I honestly do not know what Wado means.

I've made up my mind? Please do not read an angry tone in that. What I said did not just happen in my mind. We are talking about the topic of small weaker females having to fight off stronger ill-intentioned male attackers in the streets (look at SuzyQ's question again) and not in the dojo. It is also borne out of observation and experimentation. You can try this in your class. DO NOT get a man to attack a woman. Get a strong man to attack a weaker man in a way a male will attack a female in a street situation (your husband who is a doorman will do nicely) Why? because out of modesty or just social up-bringing (also most men in a regular MA class are not the homicidal maniac types we are helping our women to guard against) the male 'attacker' will unconsciously hold back and not go with full teeth-snarling force when asked to 'attack' a female 'victim' in a dojo environment. But a stronger male 'actor' will have less inhibitions when asked to 'attack' another male, even if the latter is weaker. Let the weaker male do what he wants to do; my bet is ULTIMATELY & SOONER OR LATER, he will have to poke the stronger male in the eye. I await the results as this is important to what we tell our women folks (martial artists or not)to do.

The capabilities and training with high ranking women?

First, ranking in any MA do not equate with good fighting (not martial arts) skills; male or female. I remember when I was a small boy I told my uncle, who was also a martial artist, that I am taking up MA training -- he asked why? I said to learn to fight of course. He replied (that was over 40 years ago) with a knowing smile that there is a big difference between MA and fighting. I of course have no idea what he was talking about then. All this have been debated before, but good fighting skills depend more on the temperament and character of the individual. MA skills depend more on in-born natural athletic abilities; i.e. how 'beautifully' you do the forms. I was in my younger days, modestly, famous within my small MA circle for my southern shaolin snake forms because of the flowing internal strength I could bring to it in a demonstration. But to use it in a combat situation is quite a different matter.

Experience with 'high ranking' female martial artists?

I am also a black belt holder in TKD. I've sparred with 'ranking' women and because you are a man, they were merciless because as a man you should be able to take it from a woman. Does this make me a better judge of ranking women's fighting capabilities? I've no idea because these were not all out fights. What in your view are 'high ranking' women capable of which you think I am not aware of? To put it another way, what can 'high ranking' women martial artists do which 'high ranking' men martial artists cannot do and therefore I may be caught by surprise when I next 'fight' a 'high ranking' woman martial artist?

Lets confine ourselves to giving advice to small females who wants to have a good chance of surviving an attack on the streets. My view is only one of many. Another view by others I've come across is do not fight because it only ends in you getting hurt more than necessary. Just give in because there is no way you can possibly fight and win over a half-crazed man bent on robbing or raping you and when it is all over, he will leave you alone; at least you are alive. Not too long ago in my country, two sisters, one a black belt in karate, fought (according to the police) one man (no body knows whether he has had any MA training) and both were killed.

[This message has been edited by ButterflyPalm (edited 11-26-2004).]

Butterflypalm

I am sorry if my tone was abrupt, it was not intentional. I do think you will not change your mind and that is all I meant to imply. I must admit I do get tired of men putting women off training (or trying to) and I apologise if I took that out on you as I believe your intentions are good ones.

When I said high ranking women, I should of course of said well trained women. I realise that the two things are not always the same.

I was not talking about sparring. I think we both realise this sparring and self defence are very different things.

"Winning" in a self defece situation (at least to me) means escaping unharmed or relatively unharmed. I am not suggesting a woman would beat a man in a punch up. I agree it is important what we tell women, and I make it very clear to my female students that they are at an immediate disadvantage if attacked by a male.

I do believe, however that good training helps even the odds. Good traiing includes awareness, avoidance and, in the worst case scenario, being very vicious. I strongly disagree that a well trained woman is less capable of being vicious than a well trained man (although I would agree that an untrained woman is USUALLY mentally less equipped than an untrained man because of social conditioning etc.)

I tell both males and females that they should not be over confident and that they should avoid physical confrontation if possible. I agree that this is even more important for females who are usually smaller and physically weaker.

I am not suggesting that a well trained woman is equally as able as a well trained man to defend herself. Only that a well trained woman has a better chance of escaping unharmed than an untrained woman.

I am 5ft 7 and around 130 pounds. I have successfully fought off a male attacker, so I know it is possible. He was not a huge man, he was around my height but much bigger built.

That does not mean I think I can beat any man. I never walk out alone after dark. I always park my car in a well lit area at night and I always check the back of the car before I get in. I consider precautions like this part of good training as well as common sense.

I don't think we are going to agree on this because I feel strongly that I am right and I think you feel strongly that I am wrong.

I hope I have explained myself better in this post than my last, but suspect that we will have to agree to disagree.
Sharon

a) Mike Tyson isn't small.
b) You will have to poke them in the eye because as you will be fighting a cyclops this is his only weakness.
c) The best martial art for small women is Telekinesis.
d) If that doesn't suit you, buy a tazer.
e) Peace and Harmony are relevant to this topic because you must be peaceful with your enemy, and show him harmony when you poke his eye out.
f) Seriously now: Wing Chun, Aikido, most styles of Karate, Kempo/Kenpo, Seven Star Mantis Kung Fu, Dragon Kung Fu, Hapkido, Silat (which was started by a woman), and Aiki Jutsu are all great for small women on the street.

Mike Tyson is small. Very! Met him in NYC almost laughed in his face. Ed

Actually a 'crossblock' is used either with the hands or arms or two boards nailed together. Eyes are an excellent target. Biting can become a very natural defense. Risking HIV is a chance but the immediate danger of death from an attacker negates that. I have seen combat in Viet-Nam and at home on the street. I have had two attempts at shotgun hold-ups against. I'm not looking to be the best anywhere, I am geting pretty old now but I will tell you that the life of a loved one or of yourself is worth the time spent working the basics of assault over and over again and programming yourself mentally just as an arm for a robotics assembly line is programmed. You can get vicious and live or give up and die if it is that type of situation. Also, most martial arts work well for self-defense. It's not the art it's the practioner that makes the difference. That includes straight boxing. In a close and sudden encounter, your hands are your fastest weapons. Keep them open, even Mike Tyson broke his knuckle hitting a man bare knuckle in a night club.

First off, let me clarify this whole WC- Modified white Crane garbage. The word modify implies change. How does something change and stay the same? Theres no comparison between the two the are a seperate art. Women can and do effectively use WC. and many other arts. Ever see the Muay Thai female world champ on the Jackass movie? Not someone to mess with.

What a woman lacks in size strength and weight, she more than makes up for in speed and ingenuity. A woman is far more bound by the parameters of perfection when it comes to the form of their technique. Men get sloppy. We think that power and speed will make us invincible and that we dont need to practice every single technique to perfection. There is no such thing as a womans art or a mans art.

Take what ever you want. People base suggestions on their experience. So they recommend what they do. I do JKD, Boxing, WC, and Muay Thai. Go do em all.

Still Wadowoman.

I do not, and never did, wish to give the impression of putting women off MA / self-defence training. I started off my own daughter in TKD at age 5 because she has long legs and continue with Aikido to balance it with some joint-locks, throws, break-falling and most important of all getting used to having closed personal contact with strange men -- Aikido provide some of that. Girls in general do not like to touch or be touched by strange men. Her Ma training in only a striking art will go out the window when she has to grapple or being grabbed and falling down properly when pushed and rolling away to escape is very useful.

Some other tactical advise I would consider includes:-

when turning corners, make a wide circle; someone may be waiting on the blind side.

when in lonely places, always constantly look around for any make-shift weapon even if no threat is imminent -- dustbin covers, rocks, fallen-branches, small flower pots.

walk against traffic.

do not stand too close to someone asking for directions.

do not ever judge any one by their appearance.

Paranoia? Some people may think it is and may even make jokes about cyclops. Look at the faces of parents who have lost a child to violence in tomorrow's newspapers.

By the way I wouldn't advise poking a cyclop in his one eye because cyclops are so tall you wouldn't be able to reach it. Better to bite him in the ankles as a chihuahua would.

WhyCantIbeSteve.

Can you please clarify your point about Silat being invented by a woman? I live in a part of the world where Silat is an indigenous MA. Anything stated as a fact on the Net will be picked and passed on.

[This message has been edited by ButterflyPalm (edited 11-26-2004).]

I'll have you know, mister, that i found that piece of information in a book called "Martial Arts for Idiots".......crap

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
First off, let me clarify this whole WC- Modified white Crane garbage. The word modify implies change. How does something change and stay the same? Theres no comparison between the two the are a seperate art. Women can and do effectively use WC. [/QUOTE]

That's what I'm talkin' about! He won't listen to you though. I already tried, lol.

First off I think you should forget about your Sex and Size long enough to make this decision.

If you want to learn real self defense for a life and death situation then I think you should learn the difference between Fighting arts. For instance I believe anything with a "DO" on the end of it means Sport, Gentle or to go with (as in throw someone the way a joint bends so they do not get hurt) a tech. In a self defense situation you will want to go against the joint and break it if you are grappling.

Anyway two instructors from the same system can teach two different set of beliefs. I think you should go to every school in your area and talk to as many people as possible before you make a decision.

[QUOTE]Have a male poodle fight a female rottweiller and tell me the result.[/QUOTE]

Great post. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I'd suggest investing in a high quality can of pepper spray. It's still an attack on the eyes with no serious/permanent damage and you can run like hell once ol' rapist dude is subdued.

Everybody has their own "Best martial art form" and every martial arts form has it's good and bad points. I too am a smaller female. I am 5'8 but, only 105lbs. So, I totally understand. You would do well to stay away from ground tactics simply because getting on the ground with someone who will hurt you should always be a last resort. Especially in your case because you are so small. I do Isshinryu karate and love it. I find it very good for my litteness! good luck!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rapacious:
First off I think you should forget about your Sex and Size long enough to make this decision.

If you want to learn real self defense for a life and death situation then I think you should learn the difference between Fighting arts. For instance I believe anything with a "DO" on the end of it means Sport, Gentle or to go with (as in throw someone the way a joint bends so they do not get hurt) a tech. In a self defense situation you will want to go against the joint and break it if you are grappling.

Anyway two instructors from the same system can teach two different set of beliefs. I think you should go to every school in your area and talk to as many people as possible before you make a decision.[/QUOTE]

Yes, because Jeet Kune Do is all sport. Do means way to my understanding

Pepper sprays. Yeah, I've thought about that and have actually bought one for my daughter, including a whistle.

But pepper spray, even if of high quality, can over time lose some gaseous pressure; and you won't actually get a "spray" out. Remember, there is no way of knowing when you will be attacked; The spray may be in the handbag for years. Women find it unfeminine to hold the can in their hands all the time. Women also usually have alot of other female paraphernalia in their handbags and over time the pepper spray will be buried beneath all these rubbish. To get at it in an emergency ?

Ultimately, she will have to rely on herself to do what needs to be done to protect herself, whether she has trained in any MA or not. Look at Chen Zen. He has trained in (I am sure to a high level) muay thai, wing chun, etc. etc. to be able to have all the options he want to fight well. He says go do 'em all. Can an ordinary woman (big, medium or small) do 'em all; does she want to? If she wants to and can do 'em all, and together with some above-average natural physical ablities then, inspite of her size, her options are very much wider. But still she represents a very small precentage of women. In any case robbers and rapists are no fools. A well-trained female shows, and he will look for 'softer' targets; what's the hurry for him?

[This message has been edited by ButterflyPalm (edited 12-01-2004).]

Personnally I would recommend Judo and a self defence art like Krav Maga. Judo will teach you balance and the ability to manipulate larger opponents, Krav maga will bring in the realism of self defence tactics and techniques into your training, and it is renowned for fitting its self to the student.

Check out these guys:
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/index.html
http://www.rmcat.com/page1.html

They are not inexpensive but they don't cost what SCARS cost and are geared a bit more to a civilian than SCARS is.

RMCAT does some interesting things. I plan on taking the "Back to Back" course next summer. Being able to engage a guy full power in a bulletman suit will really help in various ways.

Don't confuse Martial Arts, Martial Sports and modern combat systems. Figure out what you are really looking for.

Thx everyone for all your advice so far, this has been so helpful and informative!

I think what I would like to do eventually is get some experience is a range of arts. But for now, I'm going to check out a Krav Maga school tomorrow. This style is appealing to me cuz it seems like it will give me some immediate self defense skills to work with, and that seems like a good place to start. The only thing is, I've heard some ppl say that Krav Maga is sort of a fad and many of the schools are more concerned with making money and not really very good. Any advice on how to evaluate the school when I go there tomorrow? What sort of fees, per class or per month, are reasonable? Any particular questions I ought to ask about the school?

Once again, thx for sharing your knowledge and opinions!

-SQ

[QUOTE]
A couple of things that are important parts to look at in the process of choosing a school:

* The environment where you'll learn and train
* The people that will be your partners
* The instructor
* The logistics of the school

(a) The environment where you will learn and train

Don't get impressed by the size of the place- just be sure that you feel "ok" in there.

Also don't necessarily be impressed by huge number of trophies. They may indicate a very successful competitive school (if that is an aspect you are interested in) or they could be all show. Check carefully.

If you are not allowed to watch any classes, you may not want to invest your time and money. Without seeing a class you will not be able to get a good feel for the school.

Ask questions- don't worry about looking stupid or asking the "wrong" question. They are going to be teaching and training you- you want to get any concerns or considerations you have out before you commit to anything.

If you feel bullied or threatened in any manner, look somewhere else.

(b) The people that will be your partners

Go, watch some classes (without participating), then ask to participate- see if the behavior of the students changes by the fact that there is a new person in their class.

What follows is a quick and dirty check list, to which you can add your own points, based on what you consider important. Remember: these questions and suggestions are just guidelines, not hard and fast rules. There will always be exceptions. But if you look in these domains you will have a solid ground to choose from.

- How good are the students?

This is more of a measure of the quality of the students as students than their skill at martial arts. See if you can picture yourself with these people. Are they attentive, respectful, interested in being there? Those are all good signs...

- Is there a mix of upper and lower ranks?

This is not always obvious in the styles without belt rankings, etc. It is generally a good sign if advanced, intermediate and beginning students are practicing together. Check the approach the higher ranked students take to you- their help will probably be very important in your advancement in the Art you choose.

Some schools have classes separated by rank though. Ask.

Is there a mix in the type of people in the class?

Although this doesn't necessarily mean anything if it is not present, it is a good sign if there is a mixture of males and females, older and younger people in the class. It is a pointer to the efficiency of the Art if it can teach a wide variety of people together.

- Do they move the way you would like to?

This will give you some sense of what you can achieve. Look to the senior students and see if they move the way you want to move.

- Do they help one another?

In a small class this may not apply, but in larger classes it is a good sign if the senior students support and assist the junior students. This kind of personal attention will aid you greatly in your training.

- Do the senior students seem fit and relaxed?

This will give you a sense of the atmosphere of the school. If the senior students are uptight, nervous, unfit, out of shape, or unhappy, it may be a sign to move on. However, do not be put off by a single occurrence, i.e. because on THAT day the senior student was in a poor mood. It should at least prompt you to look carefully though...

- How common are injuries?

As most martial arts involve vigorous physical activity and contact, injuries will occasionally occur. However, if injuries are common and/or serious, there is likely a problem in how training is supervised, and you will probably want to look elsewhere. It will be difficult to tell what the frequency/severity of injuries in the class is in one or two visits. Ask the instructor.

(c) The Instructor

-You'll need some basic trust in the individual, as a beginning.

The instructor is the person who is going to be guiding your development as a martial artist. You need to feel comfortable with him or her, and feel secure in receiving instruction from them. If you have some unease or personality conflict with the instructor(s) you might want to look elsewhere.

- Do the students get personalized attention?

This will be a good judge of how valuable your time will be. If there is a good amount of instructor to student attention there will be more value for you.

- Does the instructor differentiate between forms and function?

Another good indication is to find out if the instructor(s) differentiates between form and function. In other words do they do it "because it looks good" or "because it works." This may not apply if you are looking for a martial art as a performance art or as an exercise (though then you want to look at the efficacy of their exercises...)

- Does the instructor(s) differentiate between tournament and self-defense?

As above, your reaction to this question's answer will depend on what your goals are. However, there is general agreement that tournament training and self-defense training, while highly related, are different. If the instructor does not differentiate the two- that may be a danger sign!

- Violence in the class

If you see an instructor hitting students, or a senior student hitting students, be very clear that it was appropriate before you consider that school. Though be aware - if you are unfamiliar with the art, medium or full contact sparring may seem overly violent to you. Violence as discipline is to be avoided.

- Are adjustments made for students of differing body types and limitations?

Another good sign is if the instructor adjusts the training of his or her student's physical realities: telling a slow person to work contact, a fast person to work ranges, a heavy person to work leverage, a light person to work speed, or, conversely, concentrating on their weak areas to compensate.

(d) The logistics of the School

-Money

This is an important element to be clear about. You don't want to commit to a school if you can't afford it. It is impossible to address what a reasonable price would be here, because the benefits offered, the local economy, the quality of instruction, and the amount of instructor time are all variables in the equation. The best way to determine if a school is being reasonable is to compare what they offer for their prices.

Find out if there are extra charges for going up in rank, find out if there are organizational dues, tournament fees, mat fees, etc.

But do not be upset when a Martial Arts instructor charges money- they need to eat and have a place to stay. In our culture money is the way that happens. We do not feed and house wise old men, and unfortunately the costs of a school, equipment, and insurance are frighteningly high.
[From Kirk Lawson:]

There are several options for those short on cash who still want to learn a martial art.

First, many school's will work with a student who truly wants to learn but is tight on cash. Talk to the head instructor. Frequently a deal can be struck that involves cleaning the school or some such.

Second is the option to find what I call "Garage Schools." These are instructors that teach out of their garages and basements. They almost always have a "day" job and teach simply for the love of the art at a vastly reduced price; Sometimes $20 a month or less. Sometimes these Garage Schools teach through your local Park and Rec. program at similar cost savings.

Third, for High school and college students, check with your Student Association or similar body. Schools and universities frequently have Martial Arts Clubs opperating through the school. You can usually join these clubs at no or minimal cost if you are a student. Sometimes these clubs are open to non-students as well. Further, some progressive universities offer a Martial Arts class for credit as part of the physical fitness curriculum.

Naturally, there are sacrifices in each approach. To cut a deal with an instructor, you may have to eat humble pie by admitting that you're in a tight spot right now. It's something that many are loath to do. Finding a Garage School has it's own challenges as well. They usually don't advertise and so you only hear about them by word of mouth. You have to expend some effort looking for them to find them. Sometimes they are upper rank black belts in another school that they themselves travel some distance to train in. The advantage of a Garage School is that the instructor is interested in passing on the art, not making money, and the classes tend to be rather small. Thus, you typically get a very high level of instruction. Finding a Park and Rec. program is a bit easier, but you still have to contact the Park and Rec. program or admin. to find out. You can usually do this by contacting your local Civic Center or, for people entering a new area, check the contents of your Welcome Wagon basket. With both Garage Schools and Park and Rec. schools, you typically have a more limited selection and may not be able to find exactly the school you want. In the university and school programs, as with the Garage Schools, your selection is frequently more limited.

-Location

If you are intending to spend a lot of time at the school you want it to be accessible, and convenient enough for you to get their after work, on weekends, etc.

-Classes

Another thing you want to be clear on is when you can go to the school and when classes are. Some schools are open almost all the time and have lots of classes. In some schools you can only come when an official class is being held. An open school is usually better for obvious reasons- convenience, practice time, access to mats, etc.

-Commitments and Promises

This is an important thing to know about any school you will be joining. Be very clear on what they will expect of you and what you expect of them. Some teachers want to teach only people who are willing to commit to them and their style, some are willing to introduce you to their style and let you dabble, some will teach you as long as you show up. None of these are intrinsically better or worse, but you want to know where they are coming from so you and they are not surprised.

Find out if you are required to attend classes, find out about being late, find out what the policy is on school rules of behavior and etiquette. Find out how you are supposed to interact with the teacher and other students. There are many styles for all these things so make sure you find out. The easiest way is to ask these questions.

There may be other questions you want to look at and specific questions you have about an instructor, school, organization, or style you are looking at. Know the questions you want answered and you will find the perfect school for you! [/QUOTE]

(From the FAQ document I referred to earlier).

KRAV MAGA,

I have seen girls go from timid and soft,

TO just wild ass kicking machines!

Its because of the aggression level we don't stop hitting until the threat is no longer a threat.

Also you don't need to be all that flexible, and yoou will become good really fast. We do not waste time with spiritual excersises and forms, We are hitting pads with partners for the whole class pretty much. Also we train our technique to catch up with our aggression, not vice versa like most traditional arts.

KRAV MAGA,

I have seen girls go from timid and soft,

TO just wild ass kicking machines!

Its because of the aggression level we don't stop hitting until the threat is no longer a threat.

Also you don't need to be all that flexible, and yoou will become good really fast. We do not waste time with spiritual excersises and forms, We are hitting pads with partners for the whole class pretty much. Also we train our technique to catch up with our aggression, not vice versa like most traditional arts.

TOPitBull.

May be your girls who, through krav maga (no disrespect) have turned into "...wild ass kicking machines" would like to take a look at Fletch1's video?

There are lots of ass-kicking there. Your krav maga girls will feel right at home.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhyCantIbeSteve:
Yes, because Jeet Kune Do is all sport. Do means way to my understanding[/QUOTE]

Not Word space DO or DO alone how ever you want to look at it. I mean JUDO vs JUJITSU OR JUJUTSU.

But I may be wrong and most frequently am.

am i supposed to know what fletch1's video is?


please fill me in because I have no clue.

TopItBull.

Topic on this thread -- 'Awesome Training Clip' by Topic Starter -- Fletch1.

Hi Everyone, I checked out a Krav Maga school today, some things I liked about it very much, some things I'm not sure about, so I am going to keep it in mind, but also look around a little more. I have been told to check out kajukenbo, and am wondering if anyone has any feedback on this style - might it fit what I am looking for in terms of being self defense oriented and well suited for a small person to use successfully? Any advice would be appreciated. Thx!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhyCantIbeSteve:
Yes, because Jeet Kune Do is all sport. Do means way to my understanding[/QUOTE]

I dont know where you got that information but it is dreadfully misguided.

I dont understand some of you guys, you say that aikido is ineffective in the street, yet you are recommending it to small women :S

Also, to the guy who said ' wait for the aikidokist to jump me', aikidoka dont jump you, they defend against attacks, if an attack is real, it is suited to an aikido defence, if an attack is not real, as in pull away to see what technique we try to put on you while you resist, there is no danger of that attack, requiring no defence.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robaikido:
I dont understand some of you guys, you say that aikido is ineffective in the street, yet you are recommending it to small women :S

Also, to the guy who said ' wait for the aikidokist to jump me', aikidoka dont jump you, they defend against attacks, if an attack is real, it is suited to an aikido defence, if an attack is not real, as in pull away to see what technique we try to put on you while you resist, there is no danger of that attack, requiring no defence. [/QUOTE]

But how will you accurately be able to tell if the attack is real? I mean no disrespect, however, I feel that aikido is a sport art. Like Judo. To say that Aikido has a defence for every attack is fallacy. No system has all the answers. The only technique I ever saw that was of use(and Ive dealt with Aikidoka a good bit) was called Tenkai I believe. It was a foot pivot to turn yourself 180 degrees. The flaw with aikido is not the techniques but the requirement that the opponent overly commit. Also it lacks any defence against low level attacks. Its preference for pressure points less than admiral in a style as well since they will almost never work in a real situation. Its an art to fight of drunks in a bar, or opponents on an olympic mat, not fighters in a gym. Not only would I not recommend it for women, I wouldnt recommend it for anyone. This is only my opinion though, maybe one day I'll be proven wrong.

If you dont do aikido, how can you comment?

As every move starts with body movement, I would say it does have a defence for any attack, and any attack your likely to see, as every attack, no matter what you try has a target line, if you were to move along side that target line to evade the attack, there are a number of techniques you could then perform, depending how effective depends on how good you are.

If a person attacks with their head, arms, feet ...., there is a target line, doesnt matter if its a roundhouse, stab, kangaroo kick, back flip, sonic boom [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] whatever, it starts from one place and finishes at another, not, catching a technique i agree is very dangerous, as most people beleive aikidoka do, but like side stepping, if your quick on your feet, is easy to do, and easy to think of in a defending situation, as you naturally react by moving if something comes at you. If you dont believe this works agaisnt attacks, think of some that cannot be evaded. Remember, in the dojo, I know what side someone is going to move, because we are practising technique, but someone in the street wont be expecting an irimi or tenkan movement.

Also, there is a technique that is not practised, but is, I have found extremely effective, I hope Senseilou has seen it.

As an attack comes in, say for example a right hook, from migi hamni, step with your left foot, outside their left foot, as the attack is right handed, the immediately tenkan, but also using your turning force, swing your right arm round using a handblade, aiming to strike the attackers face. I cannont see a way this can be countered, but I will like to hear how, let me know please [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Robaikido (edited 12-06-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robaikido:
If you dont do aikido, how can you comment?


As an attack comes in, say for example a right hook, from migi hamni, step with your left foot, outside their left foot, as the attack is right handed, the immediately tenkan, but also using your turning force, swing your right arm round using a handblade, aiming to strike the attackers face. I cannont see a way this can be countered, but I will like to hear how, let me know please [/QUOTE]

He could just follow the hook into a reachover headlock hip throw and drop you. Or he could just keep his rear hand up when he punches, like any self-respecting fighter would, and you wouldn't be able to hit him, lol. I would probably just keep my rear guard up, continue the hook, and sink my left toe into your groin at 70 MPH with a roundkick as you circled to my left. If you managed to avoid it and get around to my left, I would probably follow the motion of the roundkick, and hit you with a right spnning heel as you attempted the strike, keeping you out of range. You see my point...Every move has it's counter, lol.

I disagree, the technique is completed almost exactly as the first attack is completed, you wouldnt have time to change attack, the hand has already landed, and, even if you keep your guard up, it will take an amazing of lucky block to stop the power created from the torque of the turn

Does training with one of Steven Seagals ex training partners give me a litlle info on Aikido and its practicality? I think just a little. I stand by my post. Save flowery technique for the forms competitions.

I agree with the above poster, his system and Krav Maga have many things in common.
I am going to check out your site!

Hi SuzyQ,

What bothered you about the Krav Maga class? I'm curious, because it would seem to be a good fit for you. I am unfamiliar with KAJUKENBO. In looking up the web page it looks like a group that have combined aspects from Karate, Judo and some other martial arts.

As you can see from all of the replys from your original post there is a lot of "My Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu." Postering in the Martial Arts.

If you want to study a martial art to defend yourself. You need to learn how to punch, how to kick and how to grapple. Your friend who has no MA background, but has been in a lot of fights is on the right track. I have studied several martial arts. HapKiDO, TaeKwon DO,and now primarily Judo. Whichever style you go with it is important to expose youself to something like Judo or BJJ or even wrestling so you can experience what it is like to have someone REALLY come at you, grab you, throw you down on the ground and try to choke you or submit you in a way that is not choreographed. This type of practice not only provides you with the skills to handle yourself on the ground, but also makes you mentally and physically tough. You would be AMAZED at the stamina it takes to grapple with someone - even for just a few minutes. I understand your concern about wrestling with someone a lot bigger than you. I am a small guy (5' 3") and grappling with guys a lot bigger than me can be tough. But it is possible to win and defend yourself.

Jeff

Hi. Look at the response to this thread, Is common problem or just because it says "I am a small female"...hmmm why am I here any way?

I would suggest maybe brazilian jui jitsu, it was originally developed by a very small man to protect himself, and allowed him to beat much larger and stronger men. It is very effective in MMA and has proven itself on the street as well.
What ever you choose if its for self defence find a teacher with street experience if you can.

Everyone telling her to grapple is going to get her killed. Come on, even a small guy has got about 30 pounds on an average female. You might be able to hustle a drunken 60 year old man, but good luck otherwise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CLP:
Everyone telling her to grapple is going to get her killed. Come on, even a small guy has got about 30 pounds on an average female. You might be able to hustle a drunken 60 year old man, but good luck otherwise. [/QUOTE]

How hard do you think she will be able to strike at her weight, even with practice?

I suggested BJJ because it has strikes targeted at very sensitive areas, that don`t take huge amounts of power. Most of the chokes and ground submisions use the whole body against one limb, strength is not as big requirement as you might think. It does require practice and speed however. Every one has thier own limitations, and she will of course need to be aware of these too.

My 14 year old 112 pound son can take me to the ground and submit me useing shoot fighting, same holds as BJJ mostly. This is with resistance. yeah ok, I might allow him to get the holds etc. he is just starting to learn this stuff. But once he has it properly applied I usually can not get away.
I am 180 lbs and 4 years ahead of him in my training. In my own defence he is a fairly talented wrestler, I am more of a stand up fighter with some ground skills.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WildBill:
How hard do you think she will be able to strike at her weight, even with practice?

I suggested BJJ because it has strikes targeted at very sensitive areas, that don`t take huge amounts of power. Most of the chokes and ground submisions use the whole body against one limb, strength is not as big requirement as you might think. It does require practice and speed however. Every one has thier own limitations, and she will of course need to be aware of these too.

My 14 year old 112 pound son can take me to the ground and submit me useing shoot fighting, same holds as BJJ mostly. This is with resistance. yeah ok, I might allow him to get the holds etc. he is just starting to learn this stuff. But once he has it properly applied I usually can not get away.
I am 180 lbs and 4 years ahead of him in my training. In my own defence he is a fairly talented wrestler, I am more of a stand up fighter with some ground skills.[/QUOTE]

I think it would help to a certain extent, but no female should be grappling in a life or death situation with a guy who can outweigh them by as much as 100 lbs or more. I think learning basic strikes to target areas and hightailing it out of there is probably the best option, but I agree with you in that BJJ could help a female, but it definatly wouldnt be a finisher of any type. Pepper spray is your best friend.

AIKIDO was intened for women (so i heard) aikido/kickboxing would be best

Chen Zen, you misunderstood my post. I learn JKD concepts with everything i do, i was being sarcastic in my post saying that JKD was all sport. Commenting on another person's post, sorry you misunderstood that.

And for the little lady that posted this thread, go train with Leun Ting, he'll guide you in the right direction =)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhyCantIbeSteve:
Chen Zen, you misunderstood my post. I learn JKD concepts with everything i do, i was being sarcastic in my post saying that JKD was all sport. Commenting on another person's post, sorry you misunderstood that.

And for the little lady that posted this thread, go train with Leun Ting, he'll guide you in the right direction =)[/QUOTE]

Ah, my bad. Happens from time to time.

I'd say the instructor matters a great deal more than the style. Get in with a good instructor and you'll be fine.

Just make sure the school is traditional. McDojos abound!

I can say that, between "street lethal" stuff and brazilian jiujitsu (or any other full contact, sport style), you would be better off going with BJJ.

Reasoning?

1: Out of personal experience. My mother went through the IMPACT "personal safety" course twice. I did not understand it to be very effective.
She does BJJ now and just earned her bluebelt. I've seen her tap out lighter men, and hold her own with the bigger ones.

2: You are far more likely to go to a Mcdojo (school that cares more about making money than it's students fighting ability) if you go with Krav Maga. Not all KM places are Mcdojos, but the proportion is much higher than bjj, which has almost no mdcdojos.

3: You are guaranteed to practice with a resisting opponent in BJJ from day one. Krav Maga, you may not have that opportunity.

CLP,

Yes, in a perfect world it would be nice if she could throw one kick or one punch and then get away. But it is also very important for her to learn what to do if that fails and someone grabs her and takes her to the ground. This is a VERY real possibility and to not train for that possibility is to ask for trouble. Something like pepper spray is nice, but it only works if you have it in your hand or can get to it very quickly.

Jeff

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Short_Stack:
AIKIDO was intened for women (so i heard) aikido/kickboxing would be best[/QUOTE]

I think you may be misktaking aikido for wing chun? Aikido was founded by Morihei Ueshiba, who fought in the Russian/Japanese war in the beginning of the 20th Century. He trained extensively in Jujitsu and also practised judo before developing his own style which he called aikido.

Alot of people seem to criticise aikido because it looks "flowery". This may be correct in some cases although this does not mean it is ineffective as a form of self defence. The founder of Yoshinkan aikido said, "If aikido doesn't look a little fake, it is not real aikido". I don't really agree with this statement though.

The Japanese riot police and many of the Japanese police force undergo a vigorous and gruelling 1 years training in yoshinkan aikido, before they can join the riot force. I don't think they would teach a "flowery" and ineffective art to officers who must deal with riots and various other violent crimes.

Any martial art will only be useful depending on the individual. I practice aikido because it suits me.

[This message has been edited by Chanters (edited 01-12-2005).]

Allow me to add a little bit about Aikido, Morihei Ushiba's aikido concept changed from hard to soft when he grew older. Many believed the changes were influenced by Baqua Zhang when he visited China and remained there for some time. The influence of Baqua concept in Aikido is very much evident in footworks and internal theories. Though many Aikido people will disagree. My point is this, in order for a weaker person to successfully overcome a stronger person, he/she must find ways to overcome 3 factors which are strength, speed and power. He/she must find ways to overpower the stronger opponent's strength. He/she must find ways to be faster than his more physical superior opponent and though physically weaker, he/she must be able to deliver a powerful blow to finish-off the opponent. If he/her stronger opponent does not charge blindfully, Aikido is of little use. Wing Chun may not be able to strike down a much stronger opponent (assuming a lady striking a huge man), Brazilian jujitsu against a much stronger and bigger opponent is suicical. Karate/Tae Kwondo etc are useless too when engage in a face to face combat with a big, fast and strong opponnent.

Having said that, the other option is to hit where it hurts but to do that the weaker opponent need to break-in the opponent's defense...again strength, power and speed come into play so what next? Not been bias, from my 20+ years of experience with many martial arts, the only art that allows the weaker person to overcome all those shortfalls is Tai Chi Chuan...surprised?! But the sad new is Tai Chi Chuan masters who possess real Tai Chi Chuan skills are very very rare. An expert in Tai Chi9 Chuan will not allow more than 4 ounces of force to land on his/her body hence neutralised the strength advantage. Tai Chi exponent who mastered what is called 'hearing energy' could adhere to opponent's movement matching his speed automatically, hence neutralized speed advantage and Tai Chi opponent is trained to utilize opponent's strength and hit vital points...solved the issue of hitting power. A good Tai Chi player also is an expert in strength and power manipulation hence no matter how strong the opponent is, via law of physics, those srteng and power could be neutralized. E.i. if you know the secret (it is actually law of physic) a 12okg male will not be able to lift the stance of a 54kg woman literally.

Hence, if someone insisted for a martial art that give weaker sex a chance against a stronger opponent...it must be Tai Chi (but you need to find a true Tai Chi master). I am talking for direct experience without taking any bias.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanters:
I think you may be misktaking aikido for wing chun? Aikido was founded by Morihei Ueshiba, who fought in the Russian/Japanese war in the beginning of the 20th Century. He trained extensively in Jujitsu and also practised judo before developing his own style which he called aikido.

Alot of people seem to criticise aikido because it looks "flowery". This may be correct in some cases although this does not mean it is ineffective as a form of self defence. The founder of Yoshinkan aikido said, "If aikido doesn't look a little fake, it is not real aikido". I don't really agree with this statement though.

The Japanese riot police and many of the Japanese police force undergo a vigorous and cruelling 1 years training in yoshinkan aikido, before they can join the riot force. I don't think they would teach a "flowery" and ineffective art to officers who must deal with riots and various other violent crimes.

Any martial art will only be useful depending on the individual. I practice aikido because it suits me. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hiu:
Allow me to add a little bit about Aikido, Morihei Ushiba's aikido concept changed from hard to soft when he grew older. Many believed the changes were influenced by Baqua Zhang when he visited China and remained there for some time. The influence of Baqua concept in Aikido is very much evident in footworks and internal theories. Though many Aikido people will disagree. My point is this, in order for a weaker person to successfully overcome a stronger person, he/she must find ways to overcome 3 factors which are strength, speed and power. He/she must find ways to overpower the stronger opponent's strength. He/she must find ways to be faster than his more physical superior opponent and though physically weaker, he/she must be able to deliver a powerful blow to finish-off the opponent. If he/her stronger opponent does not charge blindfully, Aikido is of little use.
[/QUOTE]

Taking your opponents balance is one of the most fundamental aspects of aikido. Physical strength plays no part. When you say "you must be able to deliver a powerful blow to finish-off the opponent", whan applying iriminage or kaitenage, you can pretty much smash the attackers face into the tarmac, therefore resulting in a "powerful blow to finish-off the opponent".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SuzyQ:
Hi, I'm looking for some advice on what martial art to study. I am a small female - 5ft tall, about 115 lbs, so the chances that I will be bigger or stronger than anyone who might jump me are nil. I am wondering what kinds of martial arts would best offset this disadvantage, and be practical and applicable in the context of getting jumped on the street. Also, I know that martial arts take time and dedication to learn, but in the spirit of practicality, I'm looking or something that won't require years of training before I can defend myself successfully. Any suggestions? Thx![/QUOTE]

Wing Chun was specifically designed to defend against stronger larger opponents.
Also it was developed by a woman. I would look up EBMAS in your area and see what they have to offer.

Its funny how, when a guy asks what is the best MA for his size he invariably gets the response,
"All MAs are good, try this and that see what you like, etc etc."
And only gets 2 responses on average!!!

But when a girl posts that kind of question, all the guys jump up to help and offer their seat.
Relax guys she is not going to go out with you because you gave her some advice!!!!

Down boy!

Besides you dont even know what she looks like!!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

P.S. Suzy dont listen to them, I am the man you want!!!
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Wing Chun probably came from the Shaolin Temple in China since it was practiced by the monks well before the temples was destroyed. So the story of, Ng Mui, teaching Yip Wing Chun in 3 months who then defeated some soldier who was courting her is extremely unlikely. Neither of these people in the legend could have developed the Wing Chun system, it is clear that no one person could have developed this alone.

No more threads about which art is best for anyone.