Awesome training clip

http://www.canadas-best.com/images/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv

(right click save as)

My friend and coach Luis Gutierrez.

[This message has been edited by Fletch1 (edited 10-04-2004).]

Hey Fletch 1

That's some great stuff!!!!

This is the type of trainng that I was talking about in a previous post.....no sport to be seen....just survival....
This is reality....not sparring....I don't consider that any of the LIVE drills that are shown in this clip are in the catagory of sparring...there are no rounds...there is no ref.....the encounter is over quickly....there is no long drawn out confrontation of trading blows.....these are drills in my opinion....unchoreographed reality based drills.....that happen to be live...

Love your work!!

The Wolf

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hey Fletch 1

That's some great stuff!!!!

This is the type of trainng that I was talking about in a previous post.....no sport to be seen....just survival....
This is reality....not sparring....I don't consider that any of the LIVE drills that are shown in this clip are in the catagory of sparring...there are no rounds...there is no ref.....the encounter is over quickly....there is no long drawn out confrontation of trading blows.....these are drills in my opinion....unchoreographed reality based drills.....that happen to be live...

Love your work!!

The Wolf

[/QUOTE]


But you want to know something interesting wolfy? Each and every one of those guys HAS ALREADY put more time in sparring than you can even begin to contemplate.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that sparring has no place in self defense training. They woulndn't be able to do half of what they do if it weren't for it.

Fletch will tell you the same thing.

-John

Hi again

Here's my two cents....

I didn't say that sparring has no place.....I said that sparring doesn't have a place in the street.
And....sparring is not the only way to learn fighting skill.(Believe it or not)I've seen this with various class mates....
Just to clarify....are you telling me that a person who has never sparred is incapable of the type of manoeuvres that we've seen in the clip? Does everyone who is interested in protecting themselves have to fight in the ring??
Does everyone need to follow the sporting methods of teaching martial arts?

I like to spar myself..... and I do so relatively often for three or four rounds at a time...padded up...in a controlled environment.

But I make the distinction between sport and survival....I would not fight in the same manner that I do in the ring when I'm in the street.....(in fact I can't....it's not legal in the ring)..before I started modifying my training (to very similar to what's in the clip) I would have tried to use stick and move in the street (I have and I've paid for it)....

There are people in my class who have never sparred.....and let me tell you that they can utilise a takedown and control the situation pretty quick. They have been taught to have this response through live drilling (not ring sparring)
Can they fight in the ring? .... No...they do not train for this. Can they roll with BJJ Black Belts?... No .. they do not train for this.... Can they win the UFC? ...No they do not train for this....

They train to be able to defend themselves..
The system I do aims to teach the average person to defend themselves....not to win titles. Anyway....trained martial artists are usually disciplined enough not to fight in the street...an assailant is more likely to be a thug with no discipline or honour ....this is the assailant we train for.
The average person will experience an adrenal dump.....we keep techniques simple and encourage muscle memory to aid in the adrenal dump (by having set responses to certain situations that we perform regularly )...
I can't agree with you about needing to know how to spar before you can do anything else....I have seen that this is not true through my own experience....

The Wolf




[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-07-2004).]

Glad you liked the clip. It always gets my blood pumping.

As for sparring? Depends on your definition. The training on the clip was done "alive" with varying degrees of resistance. It was not simply a rehearsed demonstration. This is how they train/ drill with a different set of "rules". An eye opener to those who think SBGi is all about sport.

The video is a highlight clip from Luis G's soon to be released ISR-PM and Jits With Hits videos.

While I agree with John that my friends on the video all have a great deal of flight time, anyone training alive can benefit. Sparring will absolutely smoothe the transitions and accelerate the learning curve in my opinion.

The worst thing anyone can do though is focus on the techniques presented while dismissing the concepts of timing, energy and motion.

Absolutely brilliant, my kinda stuff!

RBSD at it's best!

Fletch, thank you and your friends for producing such a great clip and pass on my thanks and regards please.

Take care,

Gaffer.

What the hell was that? Sorry looked like a bunch of kids playing grabass. Did not inspire me. Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
http://www.canadas-best.com/images/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv

(right click save as)

My friend and coach Luis Gutierrez.

[This message has been edited by Fletch1 (edited 10-04-2004).][/QUOTE]

I really enjoyed that clipp, it looks like our dojo on a Saturday afternoon, the music is perfect!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Nice clip - how were the guys training the knees? (They can't have been connecting at that speed, surely?)

Who was the fellow shadow boxing in between the action clips?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
What the hell was that? Sorry looked like a bunch of kids playing grabass. Did not inspire me. Ed[/QUOTE]

Ed,

As we have had many disagreements in the past, I am not surprised that you do not like the clip. This is not the first time you have posted a short, biting remark about something you choose to dismiss.

I am sorry it did not inspire you. It was a highlight clip. That is all.

To everyone else,

Enjoy the clip and look forward to more.

Fletch

Fletch,
Dang! This sounds like something I'd really Like to see! This is where being a low tec guy stinks. I know one of you guys will write back and say something helpful like "all you have to do is load your rissumspazum and reconfigure your ganecktigazoink and you can view it". Alas, sadly I am un able to viev it.

oldman

Fletch, yeah I guess I was a tad kurt, my apologies...I guess I was turn off with the whole "hey dude" stuff in the begining.
In my opinion I think it is a mistake to train UFC/MMA techniques and mindset in SD/Combat. Train how you fight, if you train for sport, which the video demos, you'll fight for sport.
Regards Ed

Ed,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. As for the video represnting "sport training"?

I wonder, did anyone else think that this clip looked like the UFC or sport fighting?

Hockey is a sport, I guess.

I'm with Ed, the only great thing about the clip was music.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
Fletch,
Dang! This sounds like something I'd really Like to see! This is where being a low tec guy stinks. I know one of you guys will write back and say something helpful like "all you have to do is load your rissumspazum and reconfigure your ganecktigazoink and you can view it". Alas, sadly I am un able to viev it.

oldman[/QUOTE]

Okay, I'll keep it simple for you. Just right click the link and select "Save Target As." Then pick a spot on your hard drive and click "OK." After it's done downloading, double click it, and it should open in your media player. Good luck.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
What the hell was that? Sorry looked like a bunch of kids playing grabass. Did not inspire me. Ed[/QUOTE]

Shows exactly what you know Ed. You too Dullblade.

It's hard to believe that the whole "sport/street" dichotomy still entwines your brains. You all apparently can't tell the difference between sport training and development of functional delivery systems.

Was THAT kurt?!

I suppose there was not enough PRETEND training for your tastes?


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-02-2004).]

Too much pretend playing! Whats up dude!
I'll chose my training with a more professional group. Functional delivery system? I guess that is another word for alivness....or randori. Still looks sloppy and amaturist. Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Too much pretend playing! Whats up dude!
I'll chose my training with a more professional group. Functional delivery system? I guess that is another word for alivness....or randori. Still looks sloppy and amaturist. Ed[/QUOTE]

Wow. Ok. More professional than SBG?
hmmmmmmm.....

As I run an Affiliated Training Group, I think that might have been a dis. Oh well.

As far as sloppy and amaturist? The footage was not choreographed, it was improvised after short training sessions with people who had not seen the material before. In that respect, it was far more effective at rapidly training the students to perform under pressure.

What is missing and perhaps irritates you Ed, is that there are no formalities commonly associated with Martial Arts. No rigid stances, no "one shot kills", etc. It is just "training" freestyle.

I doubt we'll agree on this but that's ok too. I won't knock over your sand castle and question your professionalism or say your material looks "sloppy" or "amaturist".

That would be rude.

Fletch

Fletch, I loved the video clip. As a 23 try veteran MA, I can say that under pressure the K.I.S.S. works best, Thats what you illustrated. The focus being on training LEOs to be combat ready in a short amount of time. My respect and full salutation to you. I wanted to ask you for a while, are you a LT? Do you teach in Valencia Comm College in Orlando?

C. Roman

whitedragon_48,

I e-mailed you at your hotmail address.

Dullblade and Ed, what exactly was wrong with the sort of stuff you saw?

It's hard to get your ideas of what should be happening in this sort of training from what you've said so far.

For MMA training, the training displayed is fine, though abit amaturist. But if you expect to use those methods in self defense I think that kind of training is wrong.
1. Boxing its a sport. I am not going to box it out with someone mugging me or someone I am trying to arrest.
2. Grappling a knife weilding aggressor. Oh that is a great idea. Although it may happen, training that way will insure it will. You lose.
3. Their striking is not target specific. They demonstrate the typical boxing headhunting rules. Takes too long.
4. The randori techniques were sloppy. Maybe I am used to the crispness of a Japanese dojo.
I understand excactly what postion LEOs are in when faced with augmentation of there training. Also with the use of force rules.
If you are going to depend on techniques to save you or your partners ass then I would not rely on kids who got there techniqes from tv or dojo theory..ie grabassing. While I think grappling is great for standard arrests, it is the wrong thing to do when deadly physical force issues apply.That is what LEOs should be training for. And MMA is not the way to go.
As for the rest go a head and MMA during your street fight. And when you tie up with your mugger, attacker, and you will because you are training in boxing and grappling, I hope the attackers buddys do not knife or kick you.
Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 12-03-2004).]

Thanks Ed, I think I get what you're saying a bit more now;

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
1. Boxing its a sport. I am not going to box it out with someone mugging me or someone I am trying to arrest.
[/QUOTE]
Do you think there's a case for it where someone who's unarmed takes a pop at you/tries to square off with you? Do you think that the reflexes (thinking largely of evasion and countering off of a slip or roll) might still be of use, even if the punching doesn't seem to be?
[QUOTE]
2. Grappling a knife weilding aggressor. Oh that is a great idea. Although it may happen, training that way will insure it will. You lose.
[/QUOTE]
Didn't see that in the clip - if you're armed, or can get away, I agree - shoot and/or run for it. If you're unarmed, I guess you have to do what you can if you're in a corner. What would you suggest as an alternative?

Interestingly, there are a few armed combat manuals from the renaissance era(? I think, may be out slightly on the date) that use some grappling techniques in both dagger and swordplay.
[QUOTE]
3. Their striking is not target specific. They demonstrate the typical boxing headhunting rules. Takes too long.
[/QUOTE]
How do you mean "target specific"? Are you talking about treating each assailant differently, or targeting particular areas of an assailant?

I can remember reading one source who said that punching outside the ring should be all about hooks, and what's more, all about body shots, is that the sort of thing you're describing?
[QUOTE]
4. The randori techniques were sloppy. Maybe I am used to the crispness of a Japanese dojo.
[/QUOTE]
From what John and Fletch are saying, it probably stems from the fact that these guys are new to the techniques. This sort of gym is a much less formal environment though.
[QUOTE]
I understand excactly what postion LEOs are in when faced with augmentation of there training.
[/QUOTE]
I used to train with two serving police officers - I was pretty surprised by the lack of training in self defence, restraint etc that they got. Both guys were at the gym on their own time, paying their own way.

[QUOTE]
If you are going to depend on techniques to save you or your partners ass then I would not rely on kids who got there techniqes from tv or dojo theory..ie grabassing. While I think grappling is great for standard arrests, it is the wrong thing to do when deadly physical force issues apply.That is what LEOs should be training for. And MMA is not the way to go.
[/QUOTE]
Isn't there a case for a continuum of force though? Obviously situations where your life/the lives of others are in danger, you're going to use deadly force (meaning, I assume, the use of a firearm). I'd agree that LEOs should certainly be training that.

However, deadly force can't be the only option open, because there are times when it isn't appropriate - in those situations, unarmed techniques, and properly trained unarmed techniques could be of value, surely?

[QUOTE] And when you tie up with your mugger, attacker, and you will because you are training in boxing and grappling, I hope the attackers buddys do not knife or kick you.
[/QUOTE]
Aren't multiples going to be a handful for anyone though?

Thanks again for the clarification Ed - sorry to answer with yet more questions.

Thought the clip was good. I train shootfighting and we always use full-contact sparring as a practice method and I love it, teaches you alot more then just standing still and rehersing.

Would've been better if you guys had used grappling gloves and shin bone padding then you could kick and punch hard to get a more realistic feel. But you train for the street so I guess it's better that way.

Thanks for sharing fletch

Hey, that was really great. But I would prefer to see just two guys fight from the start to the end. And ed, techniques even from a M.A artists become sloppy due to adrenaline if you have really seen a street-fight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
For MMA training, the training displayed is fine, though abit amaturist. But if you expect to use those methods in self defense I think that kind of training is wrong.


As for the rest go a head and MMA during your street fight. And when you tie up with your mugger, attacker, and you will because you are training in boxing and grappling, I hope the attackers buddys do not knife or kick you.
Ed
[/QUOTE]

Ed,

I am starting to see a pattern. You really seem to have an agenda.

"1. Boxing its a sport. I am not going to box it out with someone mugging me or someone I am trying to arrest."

The clip was generic in that respect. It showed a realistic application of boxing fundamentals while controlling with clothing/ hockey tactics.

"2. Grappling a knife weilding aggressor. Oh that is a great idea. Although it may happen, training that way will insure it will. You lose."

???There was no knife grappling in that clip. It's not there. Just like the comment about the ISR Counter-Weapon tactics that you made on another thread, you never saw them because they wern't there.

"3. Their striking is not target specific. They demonstrate the typical boxing headhunting rules. Takes too long."

It was a hightlight video. That is all. In the dynamic of a fight, that is what comes out. Holding and hitting.


"4. The randori techniques were sloppy. Maybe I am used to the crispness of a Japanese dojo."

Perhaps. However, when the fight is on it tends to get sloppy. I'm not sure that your Japanese Dojo training would remain so crisp in the same waters. Just my opinion.

"I understand excactly what postion LEOs are in when faced with augmentation of there training. Also with the use of force rules.
If you are going to depend on techniques to save you or your partners ass then I would not rely on kids who got there techniqes from tv or dojo theory..ie grabassing."

There you go again. It appears that you feel threatened by the presence of SBG in a discussion of Street tactics. Lashing out with the "professionalismm, amaturist, sloppy" remarks while criticizing things you imagined were on the clip, only makes you look childish and resentful.


"While I think grappling is great for standard arrests, it is the wrong thing to do when deadly physical force issues apply.That is what LEOs should be training for. And MMA is not the way to go."

What deadly force issues were presented in the clip, that were addressed with grappling? There was one assault in the clip that involved Luis holding a guys leg and jacking him with the blade. It was a demo of an attack.

As for your idea of what LEOs should be training for? Well, first of all, this was not a cop video although there were some clips of an LEO class mixed in. Cops have their choice of hundreds of Aikido and Aikijutsu based programs that have saturated the market. Most have come the realization that traditional MA is not appropriate or practical and does not prepare officers to deal with real confrontations with resisting subjects. Add resistance and the training begins to look like like what is in the clip.

Hey Fletch ... the clip was awesome. Musically background made it even better. I posted today in the Taekwondo forum one of our drills that looks like some of this. You guys are some really bad asses. Awesome. (By the way, what does SBGi stand for?)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dereck:
I've only done this in our TKD class a few times but we used to do something similar to this in football training. You put a person (normally a blackbelt) in the centre surrounded by all of the students who are all given numbers. The person in the centre does not know what number they have and they are not in a specific order. The instructor will call out a number and you will attack the person in the centre in any means you want. You can jump them, tackle them, kick them, punch them, pull their hair ... anything. They must react and defend themselves. Here's where it gets interesting. Sometimes he will call out more then one number at the same time so they have to defend against multiple attackers. Sometimes he will call out 1 number and when they are engaged he will call out another number. The instructor will end each attack if he figures one or the other is being over powered or if one of them taps out or he figures somebody stands to be really hurt.

Sometimes this can get very brutal and bumps, bruises, scrapes and black eyes can happen. You have to check your ego at the door and not get mad at people and understand this is training, nothing more. Like I said this doesn't happen much and this is probably the reason why. It is fun though being the attacker ... I have yet been the centre man ... one day though![/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by Dereck (edited 12-03-2004).]

Ok not going to argue on and on but...
The knife techniques I was talking about start aprox ten seconds into the tape. First two against one with knife. Dark jacket, grey jacket. Next we see a single leg pick up with a knive in hand. Look closely they are using a plastic folding training knife.
Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Ok not going to argue on and on but...
The knife techniques I was talking about start aprox ten seconds into the tape. First two against one with knife. Dark jacket, grey jacket. Next we see a single leg pick up with a knive in hand. Look closely they are using a plastic folding training knife.
Ed[/QUOTE]

Ed,

Both of those were attacks. They were part of the training. They were part of the improvisation and intended to give the students a surprise. They are not showing Counter Knife techniques.

As far as arguing on and on... too late. It's silly and a waste of my time to have to explain something that 99% of this forum seems to understand but you don't get because you have a preconceived idea about the training and are looking for something to criticize.

I'm done here.

Fletch: Thanks for the clips. Good stuff. Kogas had recommended you guys to me when I asked him for suggestions about cross training. I now know why.
As I said to John, you guys are a bit far from me (Kendall) to be practical as regular training, but his suggestion to be on the lookout for your seminars is a good one. So how 'bout a heads- up if any are in the works?

That's a great clip, nothing "amateurish" about it. The participants were training hard, using realistic attacks and defenses. Training intensity is on a continuum. Any type of training is good, but the harder and more realistic we train, the better prepared we are to survive (notice I didn't say "win") a violent encounter on the street. Anyone who would criticize the training methods presented in this clip is out of their mind.

Hi gang

I'm one of the guys who prefers less sport orientated training....and I still feel that sport has had negative effect on most martial arts.....but I'll have to disagree with ED here....there was very little in that clip that was sport orientated .... looked pretty true to life to me.

I think this type of training is very necessary.... (I've never mentioned otherwise) the only problem I personally have, is that I do not call what I saw in the clip as "sparring". The whole concept of "sparring" is sport orientated... and from my understanding.....designed specifically for the boxing fraternity... and used widely in many MA's now.

This is the only real point of contention that I have with JKogas as well.... it's the terminology that I disagree with.

Drills are not always orchestrated....drills can be very much alive....as we saw in the clip...this is not sparring....this is drill work....

Any action that targets a "specific scenario" (live or not) is a drill.... "Sparring" is more of a random "play around" in my opinion.

I think that whenever the "sport V reality" situation comes up...people automatically assume that sport training is more "alive" in the methods...
This is where the reality aspect comes into it in my opinion...although sparring has an element that is "live" and unchoreographed....it is not "real"...it's a "play around".... In some respects....full contact ring fighting is a play around as well...(not knocking any ring fighters...I respect what you do...and it's the only real way of doing it safely)....

The SGB guys are very much on the right track in my opinion....
BTW....I'd rather have sloppy technique that I know works rather than great technique that's untested

What do we think?
The Wolf

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Fletch: Thanks for the clips. Good stuff. Kogas had recommended you guys to me when I asked him for suggestions about cross training. I now know why.
As I said to John, you guys are a bit far from me (Kendall) to be practical as regular training, but his suggestion to be on the lookout for your seminars is a good one. So how 'bout a heads- up if any are in the works?[/QUOTE]

Kendall? Where is that?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

BTW....I'd rather have sloppy technique that I know works rather than great technique that's untested
What do we think?
The Wolf[/QUOTE]

A fighter can capatalize on his opponents sloppy technique.
For example.You throw an over hand right but you dont point your thumb to the floor your shoulder doesnt rotate which results in your right jaw being exposed.I will now counter with quick left hooks to your right jaw.
Another example of sloppy technique would be not keeping your chin on your chest when you punch,this also can be taken advantage of.
There is a very fine line between sloppy techniques and just plain bad techniques.
Sloppy techniques are a result of laziness in my opinion.

I used to spar with a guy who dropped his right hand everytime a threw a straight left and everytime I used to side step and hook him with my left.
This guy used to get frustrated until I pointed out why I was catching him with left hooks everytime we sparred.
This is a prime example of something being tested in my view.

Hi there Karl

Good Points....I think what you describe goes a little beyong sloppy technique however....you're right...that is just plain lazy.

I personally think that the live factor sometimes warps the ability to throw "excellent" technique every time....
When you are sparring....yes...it's possible to action the correct technique all the time (most of the time anyway)....one of the main reasons is because if you are slightly out of time...or out of distance....you are still safe....you are sparring (practice).
When you encounter a flurry of punches (live punches)and you need to tie the assailant up.....sometimes it's not pretty.....the main aim here is not to be pretty...it's to gain control of an assailant that is showing full resitance...
I think this difference is what may encourage the "lack" of (for want of a better word) technique.

The Wolf

Hey Fletch I thought it was a great clip. Good stuff. I don’t see the need for people to debate the clip, All Fletch did was show you guys something and some people took way out to left field. Let it be.


OCman… www.frankmir.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi there Karl
I personally think that the live factor sometimes warps the ability to throw "excellent" technique every time....
The Wolf[/QUOTE]
Hi Wolf
100% true my friend.Sometimes you will have two people who are inexperienced who both get drawn into a slugging match.If this happens it usually results in anarchy which is why its best to always have one person who is more experienced than the other.This way you only have to give advice to the inexperienced pupil which saves a lot of time.
[QUOTE]I think this difference is what may encourage the "lack" of (for want of a better word) technique.
[/QUOTE]
Yes thats true.The technique is then lost and thats when things gets sloppy which is why its best to call a time out.Fatigue is also a factor.
As you well know keeping a level head in these situations can prevent sloppiness.

Providing your keep in shape and you can keep calm you can reduce the amount of bad technique (i.e sloppiness) when you perform.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi gang

I'm one of the guys who prefers less sport orientated training....and I still feel that sport has had negative effect on most martial arts.....but I'll have to disagree with ED here....there was very little in that clip that was sport orientated .... looked pretty true to life to me. [/QUOTE]

Everyone has an opinion. Ed has his and he's welcome to it - even IF he's wrong. Which he is.

This sort of training IS true to life. How else ARE you supposed to train, where everything you do always "LOOKS GOOD and PRETTY"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I think this type of training is very necessary.... (I've never mentioned otherwise) the only problem I personally have, is that I do not call what I saw in the clip as "sparring". The whole concept of "sparring" is sport orientated... and from my understanding.....designed specifically for the boxing fraternity... and used widely in many MA's now. [/QUOTE]

How do you think sparring is a "bad idea"? Sparring is used as a tool, to promote poise under fire. HOW do you develop that otherwise?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

This is the only real point of contention that I have with JKogas as well.... it's the terminology that I disagree with. [/QUOTE]

Lets debate it point for point if you'd like.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Drills are not always orchestrated....drills can be very much alive....as we saw in the clip...this is not sparring....this is drill work....[/QUOTE]

Drilling is necessary but if ALL you do is drill, it simply means you're "afraid" to spar. Thats pretty much what it all comes down to. Why not TEST your technique? Ultimately that's what's important about sparring. Drilling simply will NOT and CAN NOT test it to the same degree.

Sparring is critical for any fighter to be able to apply his craft. It's more of a test of your technique, but it certainly can teach as well, the more subtle things about your ability to "deliver" in REAL TIME. That's critical.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Any action that targets a "specific scenario" (live or not) is a drill.... "Sparring" is more of a random "play around" in my opinion. [/QUOTE]

Sparring has specific goals, or should. Sparring is testing. As I already have mentioned.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I think that whenever the "sport V reality" situation comes up...people automatically assume that sport training is more "alive" in the methods... [/QUOTE]

It TENDS to be. Aliveness pretty much will be an athletic/sportive thing.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

This is where the reality aspect comes into it in my opinion...although sparring has an element that is "live" and unchoreographed....it is not "real"...it's a "play around".... [/QUOTE]

Its not real? Then you're not sparring correctly.

It's not real when a straight right hand comes crashing through your defense and slams into your nose? How unreal is that?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

In some respects....full contact ring fighting is a play around as well...(not knocking any ring fighters...I respect what you do...and it's the only real way of doing it safely).... [/QUOTE]

It teaches MANY things. Ring sparring teaches about how to move in confined spaces.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The SGB guys are very much on the right track in my opinion....
BTW....I'd rather have sloppy technique that I know works rather than great technique that's untested
[/QUOTE]


I think I see what you're saying, but the technique really isn't sloppy at all.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

What do we think?
The Wolf[/QUOTE]


I think you've not sparred NEARLY enough. Perhaps out of fear, or you just bought into something someone was trying to sell you who is/was afraid to spar himself. Who knows though. You've definitely developed an very deep "head in the sand" mentality and exquisite excuses to justify your unwillingness to "have at it" for whatever reason.


-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-06-2004).]

Hi John, whilst I nearly always agree with you, with respect, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, I think Wolf raise some very valid points and as such, don't think his "head is in the sand".

Sparring is far from realistic, no matter how you train, how can it be? Both you and your partner are going to act and react to each other in a similar way, in the confines of the MA style and within the rules of sparring. More importantly, when sparring, YOU KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT and you train to KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. On the street you don't get that luxury.

When I spar I use combinations, I'm using them going in and using them coming out. I'm ducking and diving, dodging and weaving, it's one hell of a workout and very comepetive.

On the street you don't have the luxury of knowing anything about your opponent, his abilities, his arsenal of techniques and weapons, etc, so would it not be prudent to use situation/scenarion drills to replicate confrontations and train as such?

In a street situation, and with no alternative but to get physical, I go in for the kill using techniques to put the man down and to keep him down, I'm not in it to trade blows or to block whats coming back, so why train (re: sparring) like it?

The RBSD techniques that I use cannot be used within any rules of sparring. A pre-emptive chin jab followed by an eye gouge, knee to the groin, elbow to the side of the head, with constant forward pressure, and a stomp to finish, cannot be used whilst sparring. Why do I use such techniques?....because they are more effective

Sparring should be taught as sparring, RBSD drills should be taught as RBSD drills and the two shouldn't be confused, that's how I teach it.

Take care,

Gaffer.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
Kendall? Where is that?

[/QUOTE]

More S.W. than S.W. Miami.

JKogas,
You bought into the MMA mindset so much I think it clouds you judgment.
MMA is a sport. Period. Fighting in the ring is not confined space training. Last time I looked the Ring was hugh. Try a stairway or between two parked cars, Projects elevator etc.
If you want to box, kick or grapple your way out of trouble go ahead. But realise this it takes toooo long, Mike Tyson you are not. Add weapons and you are dead with the training you do.
Ed

Hi all

Here's another two cents....

I think that sparring generally ends up being....you have a go...and then....I have a go....and this goes on until the end of "the round". I personally don't see this as being "real". I wouldn't want any street fight that I was in to be like this....I would much prefer....the assailant has a go....and I end it .....NOW !

JKogas....many of the points you make about the benefits of sparring are valid, but I'd like to suggest that the negative effect that sparring can have is just as note worthy. Sometimes I think that we place too much emphasis on the sporting aspects of martial arts....When was the last time you sparred with open hands? When was the last time you sparred where the opponent was not using the same "rules" as you? When was the last time you sparred where you didn't use the "stick and move" principal.

What about the "protection factor". This is another aspect of sparring that is a negative influence. When we spar, we are generally under an "obligation" to "protect" our sparring partner......this too is not real in a street scenario.

At then end of the day.....there is nothing wrong with sparring for sport or fun...and yes...I agree that sparring also creates vision but I think we should all be conscious that there are negatives!!!

Street encounters are over very quickly....the nature of sparring is very sport orientated....the techniques are designed to "out score" your opponent and to keep them "at bay" ......my opinion is that these types of sport applications actually prolong a fight!!!!! (I agree ED)
If your aim is to stop a fight quickly......maybe to choke your assailant ....maybe a reverse choke.....maybe a neck break.....using stick and move will actually stop you from actioning the choke.....the jab that we constantly throw is keeping us away from the opponents neck!!!!

The stick and move theory doesn't work against the street thug who doesn't know about it...or want to use it .... in the haze of the encounter it's usually a flurry of punches that comes our way...
You fight the way you train.........your body will revert to what it knows best...if that is non contact sparring....your in for trouble...
Does this mean that we need to train in a full contact fighting environment??...Glad you asked? Yes and no....In my opinion..... No we do not need to belt each other "to get your eye in" as most people seem to believe.....(once again ..my thoughts) but you do need to work in a full contact paradigm.....how do we do this without actually stepping into the ring.....

The only way to do this safely (without injuring yourself or your classmates) is full contact pad work!! The Thai's have been doing this for ages....
I think that when we train with pads...we are literally striking with full contact and intent....the pad holder is safe....so the "obligation" to protect your sparring partner is not present.... (as it is when you spar with your class mates)....you can strike as hard as you like, (we obviously don't strike as hard when we spar...because there is no real intent !!)

I don't want to program my response (muscle memory) to pull punches....
I hit full contact.....this is transferable to the street...I do not work on "control"....I hit hard....
In this respect....I feel that full contact pad work is more valuable than non contact or touch contact sparring....(how much time does the average MA class spend on sparring anyway?)

You fight the way you train.........your body will revert to what it knows best...under the influence of an adrenal dump.....if that is non contact sparring....your in for trouble...

The reason I don't spar often has nothing to do with fear.....I weigh 110 kilos....every time I "spar" I need to pull punches or I will hurt my training buddies who weigh half as much as me....it's not real...
Everyone can pin point the positives of sparring....not many realise that there are actually negatives as well (in relation to the street).....sparring has no place in the street....I think it's important to be conscious of this....

The Wolf

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
More S.W. than S.W. Miami.

[/QUOTE]


Get over to Pembroke Pines. SBGi Regional HQ and Vice President, Luis Gutierrez.
www.onedragon.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
JKogas,
You bought into the MMA mindset so much I think it clouds you judgment.
MMA is a sport. Period. Fighting in the ring is not confined space training. Last time I looked the Ring was huge.

[/QUOTE]

Rings aren't that big bro. They come in different sizes as well. I've been in some SMALL rings.

How 'bout you?

Never been stalked by a good fighter huh? Perhaps you should try getting into a ring sometime with a quality opponent.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:

Try a stairway or between two parked cars, Projects elevator etc.
[/QUOTE]

Situations change, delivery systems don’t.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:

If you want to box, kick or grapple your way out of trouble go ahead. But realise this it takes toooo long, Mike Tyson you are not. Add weapons and you are dead with the training you do.
Ed[/QUOTE]

Who said I was going to box? You may end up having to. You can’t dictate your environment nor your opponent.

Who said I was going to grapple? You may end up having to. You can’t dictate your environment nor your opponent.

Sportive training is worst-case scenario preparedness. I’d rather be prepared and have some skill against real resisting opponent and develop some game, instead of “pretending” to fight. But that’s me.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:
Hi John, whilst I nearly always agree with you, with respect, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, I think Wolf raise some very valid points and as such, don't think his "head is in the sand".

Sparring is far from realistic, no matter how you train, how can it be?
[/QUOTE]

It’s realistic because it is actual fighting. How is any contrived drill or scenario where one person knows ahead of time what his role is going to be realistic?

Drilling is important. Don’t take what I’m saying the wrong way. But you don’t spar, you’re NOT testing your technique in a realistic manner.

Contrived is contrived. Any drill, no matter how realistic it seems, is ultimately contrived in that your opponent knows before hand what his role is. He knows before hand, “ok….it’s my turn to get my @ss kicked”.

Is that more real? Please explain if you think so.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

Both you and your partner are going to act and react to each other in a similar way, in the confines of the MA style and within the rules of sparring. [/QUOTE]

But a contrived drill where there is even MORE limitation (due to each person having a “role” to play) is more confined, more structured, and as mentioned, is just contrived. You talk about how in sparring, each person is going to act and react to each other in similar ways? How else using real resistance are you going to react? You spar using MMA rules and you end up with both opponents who are allowed to actually fight each other. The resistance is going to be more realistic as a result. Not like in some contrived drill where each person knows whether they win or lose before the fight even STARTS. That’s realistic in your eyes?

Tell me where I’m losing you guys…


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

More importantly, when sparring, YOU KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT and you train to KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. On the street you don't get that luxury. [/QUOTE]

So, somehow a contrived drill where each person has a role to play is less predictable? Explain how a “drill” is going to be somehow less predictable.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

When I spar I use combinations, I'm using them going in and using them coming out. I'm ducking and diving, dodging and weaving, it's one hell of a workout and very comepetive.

On the street you don't have the luxury of knowing anything about your opponent, his abilities, his arsenal of techniques and weapons, etc, so would it not be prudent to use situation/scenarion drills to replicate confrontations and train as such? [/QUOTE]

So do you spar in these scenarios? Or, does one person know he’s the attacker and the other person know he’s the defender? What attacks is he allowed to use? Is THIS discussed before hand? What level of retaliation is the DEFENDER allowed to use? Is the attacker allowed to defend that? Is the fight allowed to continue on the ground if it gets that far?

If the attacker and defender are allowed to use whatever they want to use and the “fight” is allowed to continue uninterrupted until one person taps out or is knocked out, isn’t that the exact same thing as sparring?

If it is NOT allowed to continue, then it’s just merely another contrived drill. Any contrived drill is just not going to be realistic – if sparring and continued fighting is not allowed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

In a street situation, and with no alternative but to get physical, I go in for the kill using techniques to put the man down and to keep him down, I'm not in it to trade blows or to block whats coming back, so why train (re: sparring) like it? [/QUOTE]

Guess what? I’m not either! The only problem with that little scenario is that people are out there who won’t cooperate with you “techniques which are ‘supposed’ to put them down”. Life is just like that – it has a funny little way of not cooperating with your plans. Sparring is that little uncooperative scenario drill which gets a fighter accustomed to that reality.

Don’t operate out of a faulty premise. But you ARE if you think that you can “just put ‘em down” whenever you FEEL like it.

Sometimes “trading” is unavoidable. No it’s not what you want. But how often does life always give you what you want?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

The RBSD techniques that I use cannot be used within any rules of sparring. [/QUOTE]

Then you simply CANNOT know for sure that they’re going to work. This is the SAME argument that I always get from RBSD guys. It’s a cop out to avoid sparring. That’s all it is.

We have “street” tactics as well. But these tactics are useless unless you have some “game”.

Doing your “street tactics” against a guy cooperating with you is just not realistic at all. In fact it’s nothing but fantasy role playing games.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

A pre-emptive chin jab followed by an eye gouge, knee to the groin, elbow to the side of the head, with constant forward pressure, and a stomp to finish, cannot be used whilst sparring. [/QUOTE]

Right, you can’t use them in sparring. But you can’t use them in drilling either – unless you PRETEND to do them. And that’s the point I’m making. That’s pretend martial arts. Its fantasy role playing games.

Sorry friends, that’s not fighting. You’d have just as much fight preparedness in drama class rehearsing a fight scene.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

Why do I use such techniques?....because they are more effective [/QUOTE]

But you DON’T “use” them – you PRETEND to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaffer:

Sparring should be taught as sparring, RBSD drills should be taught as RBSD drills and the two shouldn't be confused, that's how I teach it.

Take care,

Gaffer.

[/QUOTE]

I understand your point. Trust me, I really do. You guys have the erroneous impression that “we” don’t have any street drills. We do. My emphasis is just not placed on pretend training.

I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I didn’t give the people who do and have trained with me, any “real” ability to fight.

Our approach is, we develop game first. There is no substitute for that ability. After that is in place to some degree, it’s a simple process to add what we term the “foul” tactics (eye gouging, hair pulling, etc.).

But there is no substitute for actual ability. No amount of “pretend” training using contrived drills is going to create an actual ability to fight.

In other words; I’d put my money on the trained MMA-style fighter (boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu) who understands biting and eye gouging, than the guy who only understands biting and eye gouging. How can that NOT make sense?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all
I think that sparring generally ends up being....you have a go...and then....I have a go....and this goes on until the end of "the round". I personally don't see this as being "real".
[/QUOTE]

Why limit sparring to that sort of thing? That’s not exactly MY definition.

Does a round need a particular time limit? Why not go all out for 30 seconds? Why use a round at all? Why not go until someone taps out, verbally submits or is knocked out? That would be better than some contrived drill.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I wouldn't want any street fight that I was in to be like this....I would much prefer....the assailant has a go....and I end it .....NOW ! [/QUOTE]

We ALL would. I do as well. We train for that also. However, life doesn’t always give you what you want. Life sometimes throws actual skilled opponents your way. You can in no way predict whom you’ll be facing. In that regard, it’s a good idea to have spent some time actually facing the sort of resistance you’re likely to face when DEALING with the trained opponent – who won’t go down just because you want him to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

JKogas....many of the points you make about the benefits of sparring are valid, but I'd like to suggest that the negative effect that sparring can have is just as note worthy. Sometimes I think that we place too much emphasis on the sporting aspects of martial arts....When was the last time you sparred with open hands?
[/QUOTE]

I spar in many different ways. 16oz gloves. 4oz MMA gloves, open hands. You name it, I’ve done it.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

When was the last time you sparred where the opponent was not using the same "rules" as you? [/QUOTE]

We have limited rules. No biting, no eye gouging. That’s just to keep things safe. After all, you can’t really eye gouge anyway, even in drilling without pretending to do so. Sparring the way we do is infinitely more realistic than some contrived drill.

You have to drill to isolate mechanics and improve them. You have to spar to test them. It’s that simple./

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

When was the last time you sparred where you didn't use the "stick and move" principal. [/QUOTE]

What do you mean? Like, I’m just standing there flat-footed? Movement happens in real fights. You have to move around. Ever see two guys standing there like rockem-sockem? Those guys weren’t good fighters.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

What about the "protection factor". This is another aspect of sparring that is a negative influence. When we spar, we are generally under an "obligation" to "protect" our sparring partner......this too is not real in a street scenario. [/QUOTE]

So, you’re not protecting your partner when you drill? How is he being “injured”? Is the injury a “pretend” injury or is it a real injury where his eyeballs or nuts are rolling around like marbles?

Describe your partners injuries to me so I can understand how YOU are not being protective.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

At then end of the day.....there is nothing wrong with sparring for sport or fun...and yes...I agree that sparring also creates vision but I think we should all be conscious that there are negatives!!! [/QUOTE]

At the end of the day, if you’re NOT sparring, you’re engaging in fantasy role playing games.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Street encounters are over very quickly....the nature of sparring is very sport orientated....the techniques are designed to "out score" your opponent and to keep them "at bay" ......my opinion is that these types of sport applications actually prolong a fight!!!!! (I agree ED)
[/QUOTE]

An armbar which breaks the arm is a “sport” move? Since when is THAT a sport move? When a sport move such as a choke puts someone to sleep, that’s a sport move too?

Explain how a straight right hand which knocks someone out is not a combat viable move.

Explain how the armbar or heel hook is not a combat viable move.

Explain how the choke is not a combat viable move.

Those examples just mentioned are all "sport" moves, quite capable of rendering an opponent disabled.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

If your aim is to stop a fight quickly......maybe to choke your assailant ....maybe a reverse choke.....maybe a neck break.....using stick and move will actually stop you from actioning the choke.....the jab that we constantly throw is keeping us away from the opponents neck!!!! [/QUOTE]

So don’t USE the jab for the purpose of closing with your opponent. Use it for keeping him at bay so that you can find a way to ESCAPE! Don’t you think that people can use their brains? Circumstances change, but delivery systems stay the same folks. It all comes down to whether you pretend to train them, or train them for real.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The stick and move theory doesn't work against the street thug who doesn't know about it...or want to use it .... in the haze of the encounter it's usually a flurry of punches that comes our way...[/QUOTE]

The stick and move can move you away. Who said you had to continue fighting if you’ve created space to run away?

If you need to close, then close. Close into the clinch and fire a knee to the head (sport moves there folks!).


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

You fight the way you train.........your body will revert to what it knows best...if that is non contact sparring....your in for trouble... [/QUOTE]

Whoa, now I’m beginning to understand. You’re thinking we do non-contact sparring. Boy are YOU ever wrong.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Does this mean that we need to train in a full contact fighting environment??...Glad you asked? Yes and no....
[/QUOTE]

Yes you DO need the full contact environment to adequately prepare individuals for the real thing. No, you don’t need to KILL each other to do it. Though you SHOULD have knock-out power in at least one session per month. Otherwise you’re pretending again.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

In my opinion..... No we do not need to belt each other "to get your eye in" as most people seem to believe.....(once again ..my thoughts) but you do need to work in a full contact paradigm.....how do we do this without actually stepping into the ring..... [/QUOTE]

Why the cop out to not step in the ring? Although the ring isn’t needed, it does teach some very valuable things.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The only way to do this safely (without injuring yourself or your classmates) is full contact pad work!! The Thai's have been doing this for ages.... [/QUOTE]

Isn’t all pad work full contact? But I digress..MY GOD man…..the THAI’s also SPAR and, they also know how incredibly important it is.

We do pad work as well! HAVE done it. Done it for AGES. But I have seen guys who only trained on pads go completely to sh*t once in the ring. The reason? Not enough SPARRING!

Take a pad guy. Take a guy who does pads and spars. Who’s going to be better? The answer is obvious man. It’s just plain common sense.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I think that when we train with pads...we are literally striking with full contact and intent....the pad holder is safe
[/QUOTE]

And so are YOU! That’s just the problem.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....so the "obligation" to protect your sparring partner is not present.... (as it is when you spar with your class mates)....you can strike as hard as you like, (we obviously don't strike as hard when we spar...because there is no real intent !!) [/QUOTE]

Sure, I understand that but you CAN spar to knock out ya know? You can bang as hard as possible. Just put some headgear on and go (but you don't have to). A guy can always quit if the going gets too tough. How do you ever find out how much you can take if you don’t TEST YOURSELF OCCASSIONALLY? That’s what sparring is all about.

But we use pads to. They’re a good thing but they CAN lead to some bad habits because of their relative safety.

Sparring is used to test the individual. Why? One simple answer – Because the street is NOT the first place you want to learn where getting hit hard feels like. It’s also not the place to first discover that a technique doesn’t work.

Sparring is used for those purposes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I don't want to program my response (muscle memory) to pull punches.... [/QUOTE]

Hitting a human is different when that human is punching back. Pads don’t quite pack that same punch.

Besides, who said that you had to pull punches when sparring…you? I don’t. I’m not in some Take one’s dough class pal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I hit full contact.....this is transferable to the street...I do not work on "control"....I hit hard....[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you hit hard on pads. Pads. You’re hitting pillows. THAT’S a good test?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

In this respect....I feel that full contact pad work is more valuable than non contact or touch contact sparring....(how much time does the average MA class spend on sparring anyway?) [/QUOTE]

Sparring teaches distance and timing. Something you are NOT going to replicate from pads. This is because the pads aren’t going to be fighting you back in earnest the same way you are doing to them. The game changes quite a bit when your feeder takes the pads off and is going for you the same way you were going for him. THEN you’ll see what a real fight begins to look like. That’s my idea of sparring.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

You fight the way you train.........your body will revert to what it knows best...under the influence of an adrenal dump.....if that is non contact sparring....your in for trouble...[/QUOTE]

Non contact sparring isn’t what I do or teach. Don’t know where you came about this notion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The reason I don't spar often has nothing to do with fear.....I weigh 110 kilos....every time I "spar" I need to pull punches or I will hurt my training buddies who weigh half as much as me....it's not real... [/QUOTE]

Then you should find someone who weighs as much as you do.

So, hitting pads is more real to you? Hitting a pad? When do you think you’re going to get into a fight with a pad, lmao?!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Everyone can pin point the positives of sparring....not many realise that there are actually negatives as well (in relation to the street).....sparring has no place in the street....I think it's important to be conscious of this....

The Wolf[/QUOTE]

Maybe if you’re playing game of tag and not allowing head contact there are some negatives. Like I said, that’s not my definition of sparring.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-06-2004).]

Hi all

John....
So again it comes down to terminology....
If you are not controlling or limiting your techniques in any way....and you are fighting full contact....then this in NOT sparring in my book...this is full contact FIGHTING.

Why do you assume that drills are always orchestrated.....you made a mention of making your opponent tap....THIS IS A DRILL.... The objective of the drill is to make your opponent tap.

I agree with the concept of training live.....I just don't agree that ring sparring does this effectively.
What you describe is not called sparring my my circles....maybe it's just our terminology here in Australia....

You mentioned the notion of "anticipation" during drill work (once again...not all drills are orchestrated) are you saying that there is no form of anticipation in sparring? Besides...I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing....
The whole concept of evasion is based on anticipation!!

Once again...it depends on the individual....I personally have no need to step into the world of ring fighting and the ego that goes with it.... I am not training to win any titles. I want to acquire strong self defence skills in the safest possible environment. I have to go to work on Mondays......your methods are not for me.....each to their own.
I can only really speak from my own experience.....
One of the things that I can see after approx two years of hitting the pads hard....and drill based street self defence applications....(No sparring) is that I'm loosing my sense of "control"... Other arts that I have been a part of emphasised "control".
When I do spar now and again in a controlled environment....I am constantly getting pulled up for using excessive force. I truly don't mean to hurt my opponent......but my distancing and follow through are reprogrammed through pad work to have a full contact response..... Am I loosing my sense of control.....YES.....but I would rather not have it in the street. You fight the way you train...
I helped a fighter from a more traditional MA background prepare for his second kickboxing fight recently...he came to Australia from New Zealand and needed a sparring partner.....I found myself wanting to engage....because I was not used to punching the air......he (through his constant sparring) wanted to keep the encounter out of strike range......
It's the little things that we don't need to think about (muscle memory) that will aid us in the street.....
Now you may say that this person was inexperienced.....and you'd be right....so how can we program the correct response into the average martial artist that has never stepped into he ring.. the mother/father, son/daughter...average person/non ring fighter, who wants to acquire self defence capability....how do we get these people to have the correct response in the street (where it counts).....and under the effects of an adrenal dump....can I suggest that sparring will not entice the full contact response that is required for self defence...
Full contact ring fighting is in a league of its own......if you choose to do this then more power to you.....it can only aid in a street encounter.....(as long as we realise the negatives of stick and move and keeping the space cushion) but once again....not everyone wants to step into the ring......If I had the choice between never sparring and hitting pads full contact.....or practicing sparring only.....I'd definitely go for the option that has me working in a full contact environment and is programming my muscle memory to have a full contact response in the street........ in safety
Safety is an issue for some people John...

The Wolf

Wholly crap John...my eyeballs just got a cramp. I disagree with your mindset....totally.

I will answer this one..

"Explain how the armbar or heel hook is not a combat viable move."

Because it ties you to your opponent. Once you are locked in it is hard to get out quick. Once you are locked in I will stab you...you die. If I can't my budy will..understand.
Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

John....
So again it comes down to terminology....
If you are not controlling or limiting your techniques in any way....and you are fighting full contact....then this in NOT sparring in my book...this is full contact FIGHTING. [/QUOTE]

Sparring, fighting. Whatever you want to call it. A rose by any other name...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Why do you assume that drills are always orchestrated.....you made a mention of making your opponent tap....THIS IS A DRILL.... The objective of the drill is to make your opponent tap. [/QUOTE]

Then you're sparring. See the definition game?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I agree with the concept of training live.....I just don't agree that ring sparring does this effectively.

What you describe is not called sparring my my circles....maybe it's just our terminology here in Australia....[/QUOTE]

That's why we post on the forum here - all in an effort to come to an understanding.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

You mentioned the notion of "anticipation" during drill work (once again...not all drills are orchestrated) are you saying that there is no form of anticipation in sparring? [/QUOTE]

Depends on what you mean by anticipation. We ALL anticipate something don't we?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Besides...I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing....
The whole concept of evasion is based on anticipation!! [/QUOTE]

And timing.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Once again...it depends on the individual....I personally have no need to step into the world of ring fighting and the ego that goes with it.... I am not training to win any titles. I want to acquire strong self defence skills in the safest possible environment.
[/QUOTE]

That's my primary motivation. What I am saying has nothing to do with competition fighting. Its fight training, thats to be sure. But I'm NOT talking about training for sporting events.

However, due to the methods used, it's quite possible to compete - providing you know what the rules are and train for them. That's not everyone though and it's certainly not anything I push people into doing. That's their decision and their's alone.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I have to go to work on Mondays......your methods are not for me.....each to their own. [/QUOTE]

I have to work as well. Just because we spar and at times spar hard, doesn't mean that we kill each other. I thought I'd made that plain to see. It's not necessary to do that, though it is on occassion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I can only really speak from my own experience.....
One of the things that I can see after approx two years of hitting the pads hard....and drill based street self defence applications....(No sparring) is that I'm loosing my sense of "control"... Other arts that I have been a part of emphasised "control". [/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. I have some background in arts which emphasized control. Most of those were Asian martial arts. I'm only into Western martial art now. Sparring for real is heavily emphasized.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

When I do spar now and again in a controlled environment....I am constantly getting pulled up for using excessive force.
[/QUOTE]

You wouldn't find that here. What you'd find is people giving back just as hard.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I truly don't mean to hurt my opponent......but my distancing and follow through are reprogrammed through pad work to have a full contact response.....
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, can't buy that. I believe YOU believe that though. I've just seen "pad guys" go to pieces when put into actual sparring situations. Many other people who have fought and teach emphasizing sparring can and will attest to the same things.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Am I loosing my sense of control.....YES.....but I would rather not have it in the street. You fight the way you train... [/QUOTE]

Precisely my point. If you train to fight against pads, that's how you'll fight. Unfortunately, human beings fight differently than pads - especially TRAINED ones.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I helped a fighter from a more traditional MA background prepare for his second kickboxing fight recently...he came to Australia from New Zealand and needed a sparring partner.....I found myself wanting to engage....because I was not used to punching the air......he (through his constant sparring) wanted to keep the encounter out of strike range......
It's the little things that we don't need to think about (muscle memory) that will aid us in the street..... [/QUOTE]

Muscle memory gained through unrealistic experience is unrealistic muscle memory. In other words, your reflexes from fighting pads is to have the reflexes for fighting pads - not real, skilled, conditioned, human beings.

That's why real fighters spar.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Now you may say that this person was inexperienced.....and you'd be right....so how can we program the correct response into the average martial artist that has never stepped into he ring.. the mother/father, son/daughter...average person/non ring fighter, who wants to acquire self defence capability....how do we get these people to have the correct response in the street (where it counts).....and under the effects of an adrenal dump....can I suggest that sparring will not entice the full contact response that is required for self defence...
[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but the "average" person who does anything less than full contact sparring just will not be adequately prepared against the skilled, conditioned, athletic opponents. They simply won't have been pressure tested to truly develop the toughed mentality needed to adequately deal with the stress of a real situation.

It's takes doing to know how to do, in other words.

Skill to do, comes from doing.

If you want to swim, you have to get into the water - not stand on the shore flapping your arms.

If you want to be able to fight - you have to fight. No such thing as pretend fighting going to help REAL fighting.

Doesn't take getting into the ring, though that can help. It just takes doing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Full contact ring fighting is in a league of its own......if you choose to do this then more power to you.....it can only aid in a street encounter.....(as long as we realise the negatives of stick and move and keeping the space cushion) but once again....not everyone wants to step into the ring......If I had the choice between never sparring and hitting pads full contact.....or practicing sparring only.....I'd definitely go for the option that has me working in a full contact environment and is programming my muscle memory to have a full contact response in the street........ in safety
Safety is an issue for some people John...

The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

Full contact doesn't have to mean full power. You can STILL work your power on the bags and on the pads. It's the TIMING and other attributes that are developed through sparring.

But as well, a true test of self isn't to be had without some PRESSURE.

Ever heard of "stress testing".

That's sparring.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Wholly crap John...my eyeballs just got a cramp. I disagree with your mindset....totally. [/QUOTE]

Ed. That's fine. Not everyone is going to agree. Thing is, you'd probably not realize that I am no different in my approach to street fighting.

I just don't like pretend training Ed. You must. Lets agree that I train for real and you pretend. Cool? Cool.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:

I will answer this one..

"Explain how the armbar or heel hook is not a combat viable move."

Because it ties you to your opponent. Once you are locked in it is hard to get out quick.
[/QUOTE]

It's snap, not tap ED. You do what you HAVE to do - even if that's breaking an arm or leg. It's the SITUATION which dictates the tactics Ed.

If I am in the situation where the arm is presented, I'll take it. It's not something I'm AIMING to do. I'll take whatever is given.

Actually, I'll do only what's needed to effect my escape. That's still not a substitute for athletic training.

There IS no substitute for that.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:

Once you are locked in I will stab you...you die.
[/QUOTE]

Then I'll shoot you Ed. You do what you have to do. I'll still take that arm if it comes available. I'd be an idiot not too. What would you suggest otherwise?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:

If I can't my budy will..understand.
[/QUOTE]

Then MY buddy will choke out and/or heel hook YOUR buddy. Understand?!

WHAT martial art doesn't tie you to your opponent ED, unless it's the art of track and field?

What martial art or practice of empty hand even the odds against weapons Ed?

Wanna pull your knife, fine. I'll pull my gun.

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-06-2004).]

now this just got stupid...later ed

JKogas,

This is no longer a productive discussion my friend. You are destined to disagree with Ed on just about everything Martial Arts related (just like me). Some just don't and won't get it, ever.

Let's give it a rest for a while.

Fletch

John, you make some excellent points, as always, and I understand what you are saying.

First, let me explain more about our situation/scenario drills.

Yes, we determine an agressor first and we may give pointers on what we wnat within an attack, such as, if you start losing, put this rubber knife and stab.

Yes, we determine where the confrontation takes place, on stairwells, in car parks, in corridors, in a shower block, anytime during our training, etc, etc. (we train in a college).

Yes, we do determine a victim, sometimes he/she knows he/she is the victim, sometimes he/she doesn't, it may be a total suprise.

That's all the factors that we control, the rest just 'unfolds'.

There are instructors 'planted' within the scenario/situation to control the situation (sometimes from a distance), for safety purposes.

This type of drill is designed to push the boundaries of stress/fear beyond that capable of sparring. After the drill everyone is debriefed.

After reading through this thread I realise that perhaps there isn't such a dividing line between sparring and RBSD drills. At the end of the day we are all trying to achieve the same thing. Perhaps there is a cross-over and perhaps there is a grey area between sparring and RBSD that can be utilised to our benfit.

Something I will say though, the sparring you talk of, John, is more 'realistic' than what 99% of most people refer to as sparring.

Good topic.

Take care,

Gaffer.

[This message has been edited by Gaffer (edited 12-07-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
now this just got stupid...later ed[/QUOTE]

Of course, you have no rebuttal other than, "this is just stupid".

I go into my views point by point.

But Ed, that's fine. Enjoy your training however you want to do it. It's about whether we are having fun or not, right? If you're having fun, then I suppose that's all that matters.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fletch1:
JKogas,

This is no longer a productive discussion my friend. You are destined to disagree with Ed on just about everything Martial Arts related (just like me). Some just don't and won't get it, ever.

Let's give it a rest for a while.

Fletch[/QUOTE]

Fletch - I know. I suppose I just enjoy going around with these guys too much.


Gaffer -


I know what you're saying. I just disagree with the approach.

I appreciate the value of scenario drilling.

BUt the scenarios are endless and you can NEVER cover them ALL.

Why not instead simplify things? Why not instead simply work to create within an individual, a functional delivery system that is going to REMAIN THE SAME - regardless of scenario? Do you see what I'm saying?

Scenarios may change and do. But a functional delivery system remains the same, regardless of the changing scenario.


-John

You babble on like you fight......too long.
Ed

It's exactly statements like these that really serve to illustrate the confusion that exists in (some of) the minds of the RBSD guys.

You really have no clue HOW I "fight"...Ed.

You have completely MISSED the point and will (undoubtedly) continue to do so.

Scenarios change. Delivery systems don't Ed. It's about developing the delivery system TO "street fight" Ed.

But it's all cool Ed. Our way isn't for everyone. It's especially not suited for those with fragile egos who don't like getting hit in the face every now and again.

It's especially not suited for those who like to not test themselves or, for those who can hide their egos behind the mantra of "its too deadly to spar".

It's completely understandable.


-John

I agree with John.

Keep things simple but effective.You can go through a whole range of scenarios but at the end of the day its about putting the guy down and making sure he stays down.

The only three things to concider.

1.How much room have I got to manoeuvre?
2.How many attackers are there?
3.Is someone holding a weapon?

I spar frequently with people of all shapes and sizes and I try and keep it simple.I do go into depth if I think its not going to confuse a student.Everyone is an individual and must be treated as so.
You can show a person how to slip a punch and they can practice the technique for a whole week and yet when they spar they always judge it wrong for the first couple of sparring sessions.Its only by actually going in there and testing it at 'top speed' can they appreciate how difficult it is to do.

Very cool...I see a lot of stuff that looks like the muay thai and BJJ type ground fighting. Watching this is a lot like watching one of the shootfighting classes I attend.
The way you have adabted it for SD is much like the way I try to train, use my familiar sport system to deliver SD techniques. I am thinking that most of the people in the Vid have a fair bit of sport/fullcontact experience as well? The puncher does for sure, his covering up is very, very, good, protects his head very well, looks like a boxer who is learning muay thai?
Thanks for the Vid....8).

P.S. for the guy who asked about the knees, it looked to me like they where pulling them just enough that it still hurts a bit but not enough to do more than leave a nasty bruise. I am very sure these guys are all quite experienced, that type of hard sparring takes awhile to work up to, you need a LOT of control. Not a lot of strength or condtioning maybe but the timeing etc. and the skills to defend properly against elbows, knees etc. wich are not so common in most sport fighting systems.