Gun Disarm; Pistol Front

Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/22/04 07:45 PM

Most disarms are taught by grabbing the gun hand. This is a very dangerous technique. First it requires fine motor skills that you will not have under high threat. Second it does not control the field of fire and is easily counter by pulling back which will center the gun on your body.

A better technique is demonstrated in the move of the month. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Thanks Ed
Posted by: still wadowoman

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 03:24 AM

I know nothing about guns (most people in the UK don't) so this question is genuine not sarcastic.

Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?

The whole idea terrifies me.

Have you tried it with something like a paintball gun?
Sharon

[This message has been edited by still wadowoman (edited 05-23-2004).]
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 04:47 AM

Ed,

Do you agree this is mainly for military and law enforcement personnel?

I think it is advantageous to learn this, but the number and type of people, as well as the amount who learn this properly as opposed to improperly would dictate most civilians would be better off just giving the person what they wanted, or finding the first opportunity to flee or fight back.

Anyway, if you want to kill someone, you can shoot them without them knowing.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 09:28 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by still wadowoman:
I know nothing about guns (most people in the UK don't) so this question is genuine not sarcastic.

Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?
[/QUOTE]


Absolutely not. It takes a fraction of an inch to squeeze a trigger. Who has reflexes fast enough to realistically defeat a guy with a gun? It would take someone like SPIDERMAN to do this. Imagine a 50 year old person (or older) attempting something like this?! It wouldn't work!

Not to say that it couldn't be done, only that it would be VERY low percentage. I advocate staying out of harms way over learning GUN disarms. Spend your training time wisely folks.


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-23-2004).]
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 10:40 AM

My friend was at an ATM. He was held up. He complied with the mugger. After the mugger recieved the money he pulled the trigger. Lucky for my friend the gun misfired.
The world has changed and so has the rules. You can not read the minds of your attackers. So you better learn how to deal with real situations.
The armbar presented is very effective but it is also the begining.The mugger can not read your mind. He is relying on fear to motivate you to obey his commands.That is why you can beat the gun. He can not react to what he has no idea is going to happen. If you attack aggresively, he will be caught off guard and pause.
Please do not have the victims mindset of obeying the attacker anymore. 911 prove that was a mistake. Instead of enduring an hostage ordeal the hostages were killed. Simply because no one fought back.
As martial artist we have to keep current in our techniques and learn how to deal with modern weapons and tactics. So instead of learning the sword..learn everything you can on disarming somone with a weapon. You may have to fight for your life someday...because if you do not you may find you head being cut off. Ed
Posted by: judderman

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 12:48 PM

I think the point really should be if you truely believe that you are going to be shot then, and only then, would I try anything like this. Another point to note is that the firearm must be at very close range, if not touching, in order to have any sort of chance.

We are taught a similar version at work, although ours commences with our hands up, but the the principle is much the same, although we favour direct assault rather than conveluted restraints.

I have to admit that I have never used this technique for real although I have trained it alive. I got shot nearly every time, to varying degrees.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 12:55 PM

[QUOTE]

Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?

The whole idea terrifies me.

Have you tried it with something like a paintball gun?
Sharon

[/QUOTE]

Yes it is possible but still very dangerous.

Yes the bullet is faster than any technique we have BUT...if your assailant is with in striking range and he does not pull the trigger the moment he pulls the gun (both conditions must be met) then you have a 1.5 second window of opportunity to do what ever it was you were trained to do but most probably no second chances.

Where does the 1.5 seconds come from? Once a gunman does not pull on the onset (no defense for that except prior knowledge)he puts himself in a point where he needs to observe you while observing if you are complying properly.

First of all don't be a threat. (Don't look like one) ifhe is relaxed then his guard is done. Get within striking range. Your chances of survival decreases as your distance from the gun incrases. at 20 ft shooting requires little/no aiming and no technique can touch him in less than 1.5 seconds.

"Give me your money!" he'd be thinking of getting the money, making a getaway, and praying that he doesn't get caught.

"Don't move or i'll shoot." but the moment you move it takes time for him to assess whether your move is threatening and if it is tell his hand to pull the trigger. Even dropping a hot potato (a thoughtless action) takes a split second to accomplish.

Try it have someone point a toy pellet gun at you. Tell him to pull the trigger when he sees an attack coming his way. Chances are you'd get an attack in before he pulls the trigger.

Now that you know that what ever technique you use make sure that you're done with the defense in 1.5 seconds (the first slap, grab or whatever takes no more than .2 seconds).

Terrifying of course it is. I'm not saying you can disarm everybody just that it's doable, very dangerous but doable.

Personally when the opportunity is there i'd go for the disarm rather than be shot helpless, but that's just me.



[This message has been edited by Shuyun (edited 05-23-2004).]
Posted by: nekogami13 V2.0

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/23/04 01:35 PM

Their ability to pull the trigger in response to your movement/attempt to disarm them relies on the same thing as evading a punch-response time.
They have to see your movement,brain has to interpret it-formulate response, then physical reaction.

As pointed out by Jkogas, any attempt to disarm a gun wielding opponent is probably a low percentage tactic. I would only attempt it if I knew they were going to shoot-in that case you have very little to lose and everything to gain. Basicly it would be a desperation move.
Posted by: exceptionist 2

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 02:39 AM

When taking on the frontal handgun disarm;facing, or not facing for that matter, I use the three rules of weapon survival

1.Get out of line of fire.
2.Take control of weapon wielding limb.
3.Disarm at all cost.

Now, I know that was kind of vague, but you need simplicity in a situation like this. Also most cases taggers already have the weapon drawn in your direction; so you can eliminate the time it takes to draw. Also they usually are very high strung(drugs, nervousness, paranoa, urgency) they look around often. I believe that the best time to strike is right when he yells "Get the fu*k on the ground, and take yo M#4hf&*ing wallet out! Given you disquise your motives with a tearfull plea for your life and uncontrollable shaking, and urinating on yourself...but you then do those three steps above; 1. and 2. simultaneously, then commit to step 3. all in under a second. I can say now after a car mugging in ATL back in 98' that it's easier to say that I would actually try to go for the gat...but then again that was 98' and I was in a car, but you can't defend yourself in a car quick enough...and I was on the passenger side. Ahem...yes the question, um lean left "considering you are right handed" side step with it while bringing your right hand upwards to back of palm of firing hand while reaching under the elbow;pulling the elbow towards you; while twisting the barrel of the weapon towards his face, to finish with pushing the barrel into his chest cavity since he'll probably struggle "but he can't resist effectively from this low of a arm trap, don't forget to throw the right leg into the groin area, or any trip that leaves you in a mobile position. If you are lucky he'll shoot himself in the chest. Also watch for the weapon itself " safety still on, replica, water gun" it does happen. Of course you would have to know a little about guns, I'll tell you now; that I would more than likely challenge a tagger wielding a .380 or 22 than Desert E. or 44 mag. or 50 cal. To conclude: pick your battles...but sometimes your battles pick you, and you must be ready.

the exception

[This message has been edited by exceptionist 2 (edited 05-24-2004).]
Posted by: otobeawanker

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 10:08 AM

I really liked what Shuyum had to say. My freinds and I. Avid Martial artists. Use a pellet gun, unloaded of course. You would be surprised how easy it is to beat the trigger time. It is however no perfect science. Shuyum got just about all the info in there. Remember lasering though. (lasering: pretend the gun has a laser on it that burns anything it crosses.) Now keep this lasering in mind always when practicing your techniques. There is no point wrestling for a gun pointed randomnly at other people or yourself. These techniques are only good for point blank range. But shooting isnt an easy task. Especially when the fine moter skills are inhibited by adrenalline. If one wants to be an all around fighter and not just a martial artist I suggest regular paintball, once a week minimum. Or maybe you should just carry a dummy wallet for such an occasion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: immrtldragon

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 11:23 AM

I took a class at Temple University 2 semesters ago called "Victims of Crime." Based on the majority of incidents, people who are victimized with a gun are less likely to be hurt than if victimized with another weapon. The reason is this: most people will cooperate if a gun is in their face. Coincidentally, most criminals will take what they want and leave the victim.

On the other hand, if the criminal has a knife, bat, or other weapon, the victim sees a better chance to fight back and will usually sustain an injury. In other words, in MOST cases, if you cooperate with a gun weilding robber, you will be left unharmed.
All the above info was learned in a criminal justice class based on study. It is not my opinion brought out of the air or from popular media. Also, as stated, it is most cases that I am talking about. With all that said, I would cooperate with the gunman and MOST LIKELY escape unharmed (less a new ego problem).

Also, I've had a personal experience with a gun. I was sitting in a chair and a guy came up behind me. I didn't know he was there until he put the gun to the back of my head. He was holding the chair under the desk I was sitting at with one hand and the gun on me with the other. Not only did I have a gun against me, I had no leverage to react even if I wanted to, as he was holding the chair I was sitting in under the desk. He took some money and left. You may be wondering how I was in such a bad situation. It was a part time college job at a gas station and I was there alone. The side door was left unlocked and my back was facing that door. I honestly don't know how I would have reacted if I was on my feet: would I fight back or cooperate? Hopefully cooperate, because the guy left. If I chose to fight, I may be a dead man.
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 11:25 AM

[QUOTE]
Is it really possible for the defendant to be able to move quicker than the guy with the gun can fire?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is really possible. However, there are some important things to keep in mind. The way Ed's photos were taken, it is difficult to determine if he is keeping those things in mind or not.

There is always a delay between our action and an observer's reaction, and there are some things you can do to increase that delay. You can generally move your hands a couple of feet before a person can react. Combine that with shifting your body/footwork, and you can make some real progress before the trigger gets pulled.

[QUOTE]
Have you tried it with something like a paintball gun?
[/QUOTE]

Nope. Paintball guns are big, unwieldy, and make a mess. Start with rubber guns, as they approximate the size and weight of a real gun quite well and reduce the chance of injury to the shooter if you wrench his finger in the trigger guard or bystanders if the gun goes flying. Later, if you are serious about this kind of thing, look into getting an "air soft" gun. They are modelled very much like the real thing and shoot a largish, plastic BB at a decent velocity. It hurts about like a bee sting to get popped with one, but a slight pain penalty has some educational benefit. Wear eye protection!!!

[QUOTE]
Not to say that it couldn't be done, only that it would be VERY low percentage. I advocate staying out of harms way over learning GUN disarms. Spend your training time wisely folks.
[/QUOTE]

John, you often give what I consider to be some of the best advice available on this forum, but I have to disagree with you here. The thing is, we all practice avoidance and no one (short of the truly deranged) goes looking to have a gun stuck in his face. But it happens... I live in a city that has the highest per capita murder rate in the United States. I have been mugged at gun point, and I personally know others who have. I personally knew someone who was shot and killed here. If and when that day comes, you don't want to show up with an empty tool box.

Just deciding it's not as likely to happen as a run of the mill scuffle and dropping it from your training syllabus is a bad idea. We all like to practice the things we are good at and the things we feel like we could be successful at. Gun/knife work is difficult and unfulfilling given how often you "lose". But it is important, and I think a few minutes of each training session spent working it is NOT time wasted.

Most attackers will not approach someone if unless they feel the deck is somehow stacked in their favor, and more often than not these days that extra edge comes in the form of carrying a weapon. Practice facing them in your training-- if nothing else it will help you understand why the other things (awareness and avoidance) are SO important.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 07:38 PM

Good post
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 08:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
John, you often give what I consider to be some of the best advice available on this forum, but I have to disagree with you here. The thing is, we all practice avoidance and no one (short of the truly deranged) goes looking to have a gun stuck in his face. But it happens... I live in a city that has the highest per capita murder rate in the United States. I have been mugged at gun point, and I personally know others who have. I personally knew someone who was shot and killed here. If and when that day comes, you don't want to show up with an empty tool box.

Just deciding it's not as likely to happen as a run of the mill scuffle and dropping it from your training syllabus is a bad idea. We all like to practice the things we are good at and the things we feel like we could be successful at. Gun/knife work is difficult and unfulfilling given how often you "lose". But it is important, and I think a few minutes of each training session spent working it is NOT time wasted.

Most attackers will not approach someone if unless they feel the deck is somehow stacked in their favor, and more often than not these days that extra edge comes in the form of carrying a weapon. Practice facing them in your training-- if nothing else it will help you understand why the other things (awareness and avoidance) are SO important.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]


Fair enough! My opinions are just that -- my opinions. Everyone is naturally welcome to their own. But I have to be honest here with my own.

In my opinion, practicing gun disarms is nothing more than mental masturbation. But like I said, thats my opinion, and if it makes people sleep better, who am I to say that it's wrong.

In my view, it's more realistic to practice knife disarms, however unrealistic THAT may be as well. Tell you this much, I can still fight for the most part if I've been cut once, but being shot...that's another story. That said, I'd STILL rather run when faced with a blade, yet I do realize that you can't outrun a bullet. That's the reason I'm more tempted just to hand everything over. If the guy wants my life, then I have no choice but to go out fighting. Those are the chances I'm willing to take. I also realize that, when it's my time to go, it's my time to go.

Actually, I'd rather just not do something stupid enough to put myself in a bad way against a guy with a gun. I understand that things happen, but sometimes, those things just can't be dealt with. "Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you". Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

What the hell does all that mean? It means, you can practice all you want and STILL won't mean a thing if a guy has a bead on you.

However folks, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps gun disarms DO work....Maybe...possibly.

Why can't I shake the image of "Bob Jackson", the karate instructor teaching knife defense though??
http://www.thetravisty.com/Living_Color.php?ID=Karate_Instructor.wmv


-John
Posted by: otobeawanker

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/24/04 10:51 PM

Well I like what both of you say in the forums. You both dispense sound advice. But the key is like 504 said. Awarness and avoidance should be your first line of defense against being a victum. Criminals look for there mark in the same way Lions look for weak cantalope. So keep you head up and on the swivel at all times. Make eye contact with everyone. Look over both shoulders constantly. If you know someone is walking behind you keep an eye on them. Turn your head to the side and stare at them out of the corner of your eye fist clenched. As far as practicing gun disarms. John is correct in the assumtion that most gun wielding criminals just want your money and their gone. Personally for me its not about the money, or my life, but the principal. Criminals will never stop if we just let them take our money. What if next time this criminal shoots someone else. I won't have that on my conscience. I choose to act and potentially take one for the team. Thats what being a citizen is all about. Thats why weapon work constitutes so much of my training.

Shepards we shall be, for thee Lord for thee.
Posted by: xerxes

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 09:34 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by otobeawanker:
Well I like what both of you say in the forums. You both dispense sound advice. But the key is like 504 said. Awarness and avoidance should be your first line of defense against being a victum. Criminals look for there mark in the same way Lions look for weak cantalope. So keep you head up and on the swivel at all times. Make eye contact with everyone. Look over both shoulders constantly. If you know someone is walking behind you keep an eye on them. Turn your head to the side and stare at them out of the corner of your eye fist clenched. As far as practicing gun disarms. John is correct in the assumtion that most gun wielding criminals just want your money and their gone. Personally for me its not about the money, or my life, but the principal. Criminals will never stop if we just let them take our money. What if next time this criminal shoots someone else. I won't have that on my conscience. I choose to act and potentially take one for the team. Thats what being a citizen is all about. Thats why weapon work constitutes so much of my training.

Shepards we shall be, for thee Lord for thee.
[/QUOTE]

I think you meant antelope rather than cantalope. Cantalopes may be sweet and juicy but they just don't have enough meat to satisfy a lion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 10:22 AM

[QUOTE]
John said:
In my view, it's more realistic to practice knife disarms, however unrealistic THAT may be as well. Tell you this much, I can still fight for the most part if I've been cut once, but being shot...that's another story.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, you might want to look at some of the statistics for gun fatalities vs. knife fatalities. I don't have them in front of me, but stabbing victims die more often than shooting victims. It goes against intuition, but that's the numbers. I think they may be skewed by the personal (domestic, sex crime) nature of many knife assaults. (All statistics should be viewed critically.)

Anyway, I find I fare much better in training against the gun than the knife, but only for the contrived way in which we game it out-- guy standing too close, most of the guys in the dojo have no real handgun retention training, etc. There is one police officer in the class with good handgun skills, he shoots me almost every time, usually after inflicting some nice bruises with the off hand.

Knives scare me even more than guns-- a handgun is lethal in one and only one direction. A knife, on the other hand, never runs out of ammo, never jams, and can't be grabbed and twisted out of the hand. If you can avert the muzzle of a handgun, there are some things you can do to render it inoperative.

Sure, we can fight on if we get cut, but consider the wound channel created by a blade that is punched in and ripped down and out-- this can acutually cause as much or even more trauma than a 9mm round.

[QUOTE]
That said, I'd STILL rather run when faced with a blade, yet I do realize that you can't outrun a bullet. That's the reason I'm more tempted just to hand everything over. If the guy wants my life, then I have no choice but to go out fighting. Those are the chances I'm willing to take. I also realize that, when it's my time to go, it's my time to go
[/QUOTE]

AMEN to that! In my own gun story, there were two actors involved, only one with a gun. They walked right past me and my girlfriend-- I have a way of issuing a "challenging greeting" when I see the local thug types on the street. I say "what's up" in a way that could be just a friendly greeting but it's laced with that "don't mess with me" undertone. They returned the greeting and kept going-- and then stuck the gun to my girlfriend's sister's head. She had lagged just a few steps behind us, and strayed from the herd. We walked back to the guys and made our contributions. I would be lying if I didn't say the idea of resisting briefly crossed my mind, but the odds didn't look good. One guy had the gun to her head, the other had his hand in his jacket like he was ready to draw. I doubt he had a gun, or he would have shown it, but you never know.

Anyway, the take away message is that compliance worked for me. We got home pissed off, minus some cash, but with no extra holes in any of us. Honestly, I think even if there weren't any extra lives at stake (gee honey, I'm sorry I got your sister killed trying to be a tough guy) and I were alone I would most likely comply if I thought it would work. I guess you never know until it happens, though. Still, we have plenty of tough guys around here who shoot with little or no provocation, and it makes me feel a little better to think I have some practice working against guns if I am forced to try it for real. The last killing we had here involved a guy leaving Jazz Fest. There were four kids in the shooting group, only one armed, all between the ages of 14 and 16. They robbed and shot (or shot and robbed, only they know) a 55 year old man. Maybe there was an instant before he got popped when he got a chance, maybe a little grandstanding for the other kids before the trigger was pulled, gun too close. You just never know. He was shot one time in the head, which makes me think the shooter was fairly close-- let's face it, most of these guys aren't real good shots.

Anyway, I think it is a fair characterization to say practicing against weapons is a form of "mental masturbation". Your odds against a goal oriented, trained (or just practiced), armed assailant are really not good. That's just how it is. But like Dr. Ruth would say, a little masturbation is fun and healthy as long as it doesn't get in the way of the other things you should be doing.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Like you said, if it's your time to go, it's your time-- go out with some class and fall swinging.
Posted by: kman

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 02:18 PM

Ed, not a bad technique but not the one I would chose. I'm going to refer to Bruce lee's dictim of "absorb what is useful" here. As an LEO who works 100% of the time in the ghetto I'm privy to some inside information. The criminal community and the lower socioecononic types in general regard "gun grabbing" as an article of faith. I've had 10 year olds tell me that they could take my gun if I drew it when I was up close. And guess what? after some talk with them,,they knew what they doing! They knew about reaction time time and which direction to twist to take advantage of strong vs weak wrist muscles. Other street kids kids and guys have demonstrated it for me and they were fast, precise and decisive. Their moves were a lot like the ones we learned at the academy in weapons retention training. We were taught a take away move so we'd know what to expect and to give give us a shot at regaining control of our own or the other guy's weapon in a close up crisis. Most Prison guards will tell you that the inmates practice gun grabs and knife fighting while they're locked down. So,,my point is, why re-invent the wheel? Considering the numbers of cops killed with teir own guns I'd say that the techniques in use on the street represent a perverse kind of success story. K-
Posted by: 0goun

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 03:22 PM

If it is a simple mugging, I'll will give away my wallet without hesitation. However, If I have reason to believe the assailant will shoot me anyway, then it becomes a choice between a possible non-lethal wound and a lethal one. I know which choice I would make. Which choice would you make?
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 03:39 PM

Because I think my wheel is better. Take the wrist turning techniques that they teach in the PD and try them against a two handed grip. My technique still works extreemly well no matter how you hold the gun. How do you disarm someone with the gun CQC tight to his body? Do not try the wrist break. My point being if you do not control the perps body then your chances of failure are greatly increased. I think most cops loose their weapons due to a. getting knocked out, b. having no clue about retentions skills and c. having poor grappling skills. My opinion on what I have wittnessed.
As far as giving up your wallet mindset..I can not read minds. And if I misjudge someones intentions then I am already late. At least with an offensive mindset I am calling the shots. I am disiding what will happen. Ed
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 05:08 PM

[QUOTE]
Ed asked:

How do you disarm someone with the gun CQC tight to his body?
[/QUOTE]

As far as I am concerned, you don't. You get shot. I sometimes have luck jamming the weapon against the shooter's body and working from there, but a good tactician is going to give you trouble with his off hand, either zone away from you or snatch you in close, and start dumping rounds into your abdomen. I have seen people try to work the off side arm to begin with-- this is a really bad idea, in my opinion. I'd be interested in hearing (or better yet, seeing some more photos) about your approach to dealing with a gun in "retention position". (By the way, constructive criticism coming: It would be helpful if your photos showed the whole body-- footwork is one of the most important parts of making this stuff work, IMHO.)

Kman,

If you don't mind sharing, I'd be interested in a description of what a "typical" street trained gun grab looks like. My other hobby is handgun retention. Speaking of retention, do you find the street types are thinking about retention, or do they tend to stick the gun out like one would hope. It stands to reason that if they are practicing disarms they would be practicing retention, too-- but I hope not!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 07:21 PM

It is hard to discribe every detail in photos at least it is for me. But since I am a novice at photo taking, I will try to tell the story as best as I can.
Yes trying to disarm someone who knows what they are doing is very difficult. But hey you don't have a choice. We train worst case situation. From what I have experience I do not think your average run of a mill hold up artist is well versed in gun retention and CQC tactics. But I do think that there is now more of a tendency to shoot victims then before. You are more likely to get shot in a hold up. From what I have be told, by family members who work in corrections, yes they do train is knife and disarms while in prison. I have even seen CCTV footage. So maybe the trend is changing. All the more reason to train properly. But more often than not you are going to get a gun in your face and the guy is going to pull the trigger. It is also going to be at very close range. Less than 5 feet.
Now to answer how to deal with the gun held tight. Yes you will go in and jam the gun against the body. There are ways of doing this with out getting punched in the face. I agree it is risky. Remember, you have the advantage by attacking. Gun fights are not as accurate as you would think.
I too am very interested in disarm and retention techniques. I have learn a lot from the military. But I think the average street thugs retention technique is the most basic, to punch you in the face. Ed
Posted by: otobeawanker

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/25/04 11:04 PM

CQC - Close quarters combat.
Posted by: PETER

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/28/04 07:57 AM

I personally believe I can beat the gun, the problem is I can't beat the bullet. I agree with all who say if you can get by with turning over some property, then do it. If you think they are going to shoot then do something. If the gun is very close to you, it's possible to beat the gun. if the gun is out of reach, beating the bullet is almost impossible. It may sound stupid but I think the best bet at 3 or more feet is to dive or zig zag away and try to take cover or get away. If you are going to die anything is worth a try.


Peter
Posted by: Shadowfax

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/09/04 05:58 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Absolutely not. It takes a fraction of an inch to squeeze a trigger. Who has reflexes fast enough to realistically defeat a guy with a gun? It would take someone like SPIDERMAN to do this.
[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. While you are correct in the spacing (a fraction of an inch to squeeze the trigger) you did not take into account the reaction time of the gunman. If he's pointing a gun at me and telling me to get my wallet out, of course I'm gonna get my wallet out. He's probably not goign to shoot me until I do because he's not going to want to have to waste time searching my body for the wallet after the gun goes off and attracts attention. However, if I get the sense that he's gonna kill me as soon as he has my wallet, and I have nowhere to go, you'd better believe I'm going for the disarm.

The important thing in the disarm is not worrying about getting the gun away from him before he can pull the trigger. The important thing is getting the gun pointed somewhere other than at you before he can pull the trigger. It takes much less time to do this, and it is done in the hopes that his reaction time is not sufficiently fast for him TO pull the trigger before you can get it done.

It's not a 100% certainty you're gonna disarm, but it's also not a 100% certainty you're gonna get shot. If there's no other option, I say go for it. And it's a lot easier to go for it if you've trained for it.
Posted by: MartinR

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/09/04 11:10 PM

One of my uncles disarmed a man who pulled a pistol on him a few years ago. (He had seen someone trying to take a trailer from his place of buisiness). If I remember correctly, he simply grabbed the gun and ripped it out of the guy's hand. (I don't think he used "fine motor skills").

He's no martial artist, at the time he was about 60 year and had been a farmer and trader tossing hay bales most of his life (mitts like steel traps).

I wasn't there, but it seemed to me that he could have been safer to simply call the sheriff's department rather than confront the guys. On the other hand, this was rural North Carolina and he might have lost his trailer. Also, when the gun was drawn, he could simply have let them take the trailer.
For whatever reason he didn't - fortunately no one was injured or killed.

I've practiced gun disarms in the past, but never on a regular basis. Some "seem" to work okay with a rubber gun. However, I'd tend to agree with many of the other comments that I'd probably try one only if I felt it was my only chance of survival.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/21/04 06:14 PM

Very pretty technique. Nice armbar.

Other than that? Not too crazy about it.
Posted by: schanne

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/23/04 08:30 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Most disarms are taught by grabbing the gun hand. This is a very dangerous technique. First it requires fine motor skills that you will not have under high threat. Second it does not control the field of fire and is easily counter by pulling back which will center the gun on your body.

A better technique is demonstrated in the move of the month. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com
Thanks Ed
[/QUOTE]

Your so fare off... By grabbing the gun lets assume that were talking about point blank range pistol disarming techniques. We teach 8 different disarm techniques from the "standing point blank range" which means the gun is against you or very close. We teach with the rubber gun and a blank 9mm pistol that is the same wieght and look of an original style, it is very loud when fired too. After a student learns the technique and has practiced it a while it is just about impossible for the shooter to beat them, that's right. You would be very surprized how long it take for a person to pull the trigger vs. being disarmed. Anyone that is into self defense I highly recommend the toy cap gun or blank pistol training, not only is it great training it is fun to see who is the fastest. Again these are very close street combat techniques and are not the same as someone pointing a gun at you ten feet away. Disarming anyone with a real pistol at any distance is very dangerous and I advise giving up the cash unless your real confident with the techniques.

"Posted by Ed"
Second it does not control the field of fire and is easily counter by pulling back which will center the gun on your body.

Ed,the first thing you do when disarming a pistol is re-direct the barrell to control the field of fire, most of the time the barrell is pointed back at the shooter. After the technique is in motion your chances of pulling back are...how should I say... your already laying on your back with your own pistol pointing at you.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/23/04 03:27 PM

I disagree. It is one thing to pull off a "trick" under controlled conditions ie classroom. It is another to pull it off under real conditions ie rain, night ect.
Grabbing the gun hand and twisting the gun inside or outside does not control the attacker. If you even get to hold on to the gun hand in the first place. It is like trying to hold on to someones hand with one hand. If the person is not "uke" compliant you will not get it for long.
The attacker is more likely to punch you in the face than you are likly to disarm him. Plus if the attacker knows anything about retention techniques all he would have to do is fall to his back and the gun you are trying to get will be pointed right back at you. Secondly you have little arm strength with your arms extended going for the disarm. Both parties arm more likly to grab the gun with both hands preventing the disarm and if you have lower mass than the subject that you are disarming he will throw you around. Simply physics.
With the technique I have shown you are moving in and controlling the body or another way of saying it you have better control over his mass. If you do not get the armbar then I would go with twisting the wrist and the gun into the attacker. You have more arm strength in this position because yor arms are bent tight to your body. The leverage is much easier to do.

Yes the standard pistol disarm taught is the deflect the gun, twist it into the perp and thru wrist leverage disarm the attacker.
It can work but it is not fool proof and is defensive in nature. Again the simple counter to this is to fall down.

Another thing you have to think about is when it is for real, your nervous system reacts differently then in the classroom setting. Besides getting tunnel vision your fine motor skills are sluggish. That is what is required to do your technique. So unless you have the training and or the experience you will not be able to pull your technique off. You are most likly to telegragh or miss grabbing the gun hand.
Which brings me to a question. What if you miss grabbing the gun hand? Then what is your next move? Realize now your attacker is backing away from you. At least with my technique I am in constant contact with the attacker, If I mess it up, I can still go to another technique. Ed
Posted by: schanne

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/23/04 03:52 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
I disagree. It is one thing to pull off a "trick" under controlled conditions ie classroom. It is another to pull it off under real conditions ie rain, night ect.
Grabbing the gun hand and twisting the gun inside or outside does not control the attacker. If you even get to hold on to the gun hand in the first place. It is like trying to hold on to someones hand with one hand. If the person is not "uke" compliant you will not get it for long.
The attacker is more likely to punch you in the face than you are likly to disarm him. Plus if the attacker knows anything about retention techniques all he would have to do is fall to his back and the gun you are trying to get will be pointed right back at you. Secondly you have little arm strength with your arms extended going for the disarm. Both parties arm more likly to grab the gun with both hands preventing the disarm and if you have lower mass than the subject that you are disarming he will throw you around. Simply physics.
With the technique I have shown you are moving in and controlling the body or another way of saying it you have better control over his mass. If you do not get the armbar then I would go with twisting the wrist and the gun into the attacker. You have more arm strength in this position because yor arms are bent tight to your body. The leverage is much easier to do.

Yes the standard pistol disarm taught is the deflect the gun, twist it into the perp and thru wrist leverage disarm the attacker.
It can work but it is not fool proof and is defensive in nature. Again the simple counter to this is to fall down.

Another thing you have to think about is when it is for real, your nervous system reacts differently then in the classroom setting. Besides getting tunnel vision your fine motor skills are sluggish. That is what is required to do your technique. So unless you have the training and or the experience you will not be able to pull your technique off. You are most likly to telegragh or miss grabbing the gun hand.
Which brings me to a question. What if you miss grabbing the gun hand? Then what is your next move? Realize now your attacker is backing away from you. At least with my technique I am in constant contact with the attacker, If I mess it up, I can still go to another technique. Ed
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you have all the answers Ed. First do you have a self defense program at your Dojo that does the point blank pistol disarmament techniques? What if, what if, what if....sure every self defense technique has what if's. All aside I would rather know the techniques and at least make an effort to save my life or my family's life rather than being a frieghtend victim that froze from lack of knowledge.

Ed's post
So unless you have the training and or the experience you will not be able to pull your technique off.

.......and that's why we train.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/23/04 05:05 PM

I tried to explain it the best that I could to include body mechanics and physcology. Nothing of which anyone else discused.
It is just a technique I prefer. Not all the answers as you suggest. Ed
Posted by: schanne

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/29/04 01:04 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
I tried to explain it the best that I could to include body mechanics and physcology. Nothing of which anyone else discused.
It is just a technique I prefer. Not all the answers as you suggest. Ed
[/QUOTE]

Ed, just for GP if you get BB magazine there is a pistol technique on page 78 of this months issue, not to sure about it, the technique looks very loose and sloppy.
Check it out.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/29/04 07:29 PM

Looked on page 78...only saw two koreans breaking the sound barrier with their feet. Which month? Ed
Posted by: schanne

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/30/04 08:02 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Looked on page 78...only saw two koreans breaking the sound barrier with their feet. Which month? Ed[/QUOTE]

Sorry, July 2004, The cover has "The Evolution of TKD Kicks" page 78
Posted by: schanne

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/30/04 09:46 AM

Ed, viewed your wedsite and it looks real nice, after all our dicussion about "close encounter pistol techniques" I am going to incorporate the one you have on your site to our self defense agenda and program. We practiced it the other night and I feel it work very well. Oh by the way love that picture "are you overtraining"? Saaaweeeeeet! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 06/30/04 05:05 PM

Thank you
Just to add, if you find that you screwed up the armbar then go for a wrist twist (break) by grabbing the gun from underneath with your right hand and leveraging the gun into the attacker. You should be able to control the gun and the attackers body. ( this is if you are disarming right side.)Reverse for left sided disarms. Ed
Posted by: Nevermiss

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/05/05 11:18 PM

I said something about this in another post. A good speed shooter can pull his gun from his holster and fire a shot in less than .3 seconds. Realistically if somebody has a gun you're screwed. In the other post I said if the person is close to you run, scream, and zig zag. If the person is far away, get down, and crawl as fast as you can for cover. It takes .3 something seconds for your brain to put what you see into physical motion, the lights at drag strips are designed around this reaction time. I can't remember the time perfectly but I'm fairly sure it's .3 something. In otherwords a good speed shooter could draw and fire a single shot possibly killing you before you even had enough time to cover your face out of a fear reaction. In otherwords disarming somebody with a gun is BS. If the person was close or struggling to pull the weapon out, you might have a chance of tackling them and taking the gun but that's such a long shot I wouldn't take it with a .50 cal big boar sniper rifle if you know what I mean.
Posted by: Nevermiss

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/05/05 11:34 PM

And I saw a couple people say it was possible...yeah...in movies. How do you figure you can move your humanly 100+ maybe even 200+ pound body towards a person faster than he can flick his finger? If you want to get REAL technical, assume incorrectly I might add, that you can grab the gun arm at the same speed/time as a man's .3 something second reaction time to pull a trigger. The air resistance on your body would slow you down enough for the guy to get a shot off before you touched him. If somebody has a gun, act like a girl, cry, talk about your kids (seriously, humanize yourself and try to stir a little sympathy) make it extremely clear that you're more than compliant, don't be compliant, be helpful!!! If you're a female say "Wait a second! You can have my earrings too!!!". Nobody but a real sick twisted SOB wants to kill you, they just want their money. In the case it's a rapist, would you rather be raped and be alive tomorrow or get shot tonight a virgin (if you were a virgin before the rape that is...)? Also another tip I've heard from some experts on OPRAH, haha, yes Oprah. They said if a armed person tries to take you off somewhere force them to shoot you there on the spot. The reasoning is, would you rather be shot in a busy parking lot where the cops would have a really good chance of catching the bad guys, or dragged off somewhere, chained in a basement, be sexually assaulted and brutally tortured by some real sicko for a year until he stabs you to death with a sewing needle or something super insane like that. I'll take the "Go ahead and shoot me because I'm not leaving with you" option. Anybody still dumb enough to think they can take a gun from me before I pull the trigger is welcome to try it. Especially considering you're talking about the guy ALREADY has the gun drawn!?!?! One word: stupidity. You have a better chance of complying if they want something material. A guy was shot here recently for talking crap to the wrong guy and later refusing to kiss his shoes. I'd rather kiss some shoes than have my brains blown out like that poor kid and be on the 10 o'clock news. If this person doesn't want anything but you dead. RUN! not many people who have guns have ever even shot them off. The ones who have squeezed off a few rounds are far from proficient at it, and the ones who are proficient usually don't practice hitting moving targets. So run, scream, duck dodge, zig and zag, and maybe you'll be alive the next day with a really cool story to tell your friends when you get drunk.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/06/05 12:52 AM

Old thread.

Situation dictates, always. Might there be a time when you have to defend yourself agaisnt a firearm and escape is not possible or practical? Yes.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/06/05 09:17 PM

Nevermiss, you miss with your assesment.
First unless your attacker is a mind reader it is impossible for him/her to react to your actions in .3 seconds. Sorry my friend it is not that fast.
Second you fail to realize that people get shot everyday for all kinds of reasons and the guy who did not kiss the shoes was going to get shot anyway...even if he did kiss the shoes. There is a specific mindset that a person has to have to shoot and kill someone and in this case the gun holder was going to shoot no matter what.
Third you also fail to regonized that when a person is attacked, they tend to set freeze...so your chance of disarming someone close with the proper techniques are very good.
The military teaches 9 feet radius for disarms. While I think that is a little absurd....three feet is very realistic if you know what you are doing....
I believe and teach to fight instead of being a victim. Fear is a show stopper. If you are going to die then you are going to die...at least go out fighting. Chances are that you will survive..the odds and rules of human behavior are in the attackers favor...be the attacker.
Ed
Posted by: RangerG

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/07/05 05:15 AM

Ed, after reading thru the entire thread, I have to say that I agree with your assesment. Muggers tend to shoot you anyway these days. No victim to identify them and testify in court. How can we agree so much on CQC, weapons, and this subject, yet be so far apart on MA Form? Another of lifes mysteries....
Posted by: Ace

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/07/05 06:21 AM

My MA incoperates many techniques taught to military personal by my instructor both here in Aus and overseas, so i hope i can add a small amount of insight.
1. it is entirely possible to grab a gun off someone... because it is the last thing they will think you will do.
2. it is also entirely possible that the gun will discharge, either while pointed at you or in your control, so always comply with gunholder, only trying to disarm him when all else has failed and you believe he will shoot (general rule is though, if he hasnt shot yet, he probably wont)
3. the first thing you want to do is get out of the line of fire of the gun, either by you or the gun moving.
4. try to grab the top of the gun (if it is semi automatic) as this may stop the hammers ability to strike the bullet (a general safety feature incoperated in most guns)
5.never let go of the gun. ever.
6.try and soften up the opponent by either striking his face or gun arm, to help release or soften his grip, then peel gun out of his hand (making sure at all times the gun is never pointed at you.
7. push him away and train firearm on him, moving to medium/long range to dissuad retaliation.
8. altough i know people hate this mantra, remeber it is better to be judged by tweleve than carried by six, and he has treatened your life, not the other way round, so your survival is paramount, do all in your power to survive.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/07/05 06:29 AM

Just remember if you strike while only holding the attackers gun hand the gun will center back on you. Physics. You must control the body as well.
Ed
Posted by: Nevermiss

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/07/05 11:39 AM

.3 seconds is too fast to be a human reaction time Ed? I just looked on a drag racing site, let me quote them: "Average human reaction time from eyes to fingers is 0.16 seconds". Here's a link http://www.exo.net/~pauld/books/car_science/reactiontimer.html In drag racing the "Christmas Tree" aka the big bundle of lights that tell you to go are based on human reaction time, here's a quote from a drag racing site: "I have determined that human reaction time is roughly .21 seconds, plus or minus several hundredths for individual differences, human inconsistency, and the type of light source" and the link http://competitionplus.com/2005_02_03/reaction_times.html

You can test your own idividual reaction time by following the formula on the first site: Note: Those were two different reaction times, one was finger reaction time (which is .16) and the other from light stimuli to foot. And as for speed shooters let me give you one more link and quote: The world record fast draw time, meaning a gun which doesn't have a hand on it, drawn, aimed, and fired one shot (you must hit the target as well) is .219 seconds in the Men's Open Division. The fastest traditional time, meaning using old western style guns and holsters is .252 seconds to draw, aim, and fire one shot. As I said, if somebody has a gun drawn on you, you're screwed. If a man is decently practiced on drawing his weapon, you're screwed. Walk softly and carry a big gun guys and gals. If you can draw, aim, and fire a shot faster than the next guy you win. Why do you think police officers practice speed firing drills? And Ed, I never miss, good day everybody.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/07/05 12:06 PM

While your research is of value for drag racing...it is not valid for CQC. First, all those experiment were done with the "actor" knowing the outcome of the event. Light turns green go. Last time I looked there are no christmas trees on attackers.Drawing a gun fast is great, but that is with highly trained competitors in a low threat enviroment. Again the outcome was scripted.
In high threat enviroments all humans set freeze. It takes alot of experience not to be able to do this. Do not confuse attacking with set freezing. The attacker is already in motion. The victim who is confronted, in high threat will set freeze. Reverse the roles, and the attacker who is following his game plan....now is attacked...he will set freeze. Alos his aim will be quite eratic.
If you want to quote research at least get your topics correct. High threat CQC is not comparable to drag racing.
Ed
Posted by: Conad

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/07/05 10:24 PM

I have read this thread, and understand alot of the fears and misconceptions about disarming someone with a handgun.

First thing no one mentioned that I saw was, the bigger the gun, the easier it is to take. Taking a 1911 is alot easier than taking a p32.

I have recieved training from several SF instructors in the art of disarmament.

Action beats reaction. Always.

First "key" is waiting for the gunmans "ki" to shift or drop. This further lengthens reaction time of the gunman.

If you are confident you are in range, gunmans ki drops, time to do it by the numbers.

1. Clear the line of attack.

This can be done by gravity (dropping to a knee if gun is in your face), closing the distance to the gunman while getting out from in front of the gun, or sidestep if you are already nose to nose. Either way, no turning back now, don't stop till it's over.

2. Control the weapon.

grasp the gun, not the wrists, not the hands, the gun. Control the gun. Nothing else matters at this point. Expect the gun to discharge.

3. Counterattack. Depends on you position, for every disarm move there is a kick to put you into position for step 4.

4. Take the weapon. Dont get fancy, either a simple Horizontal or Vertical break.

5. Neutralize the suspect. Depending on your firearm knowledge / skill this will vary. The way I practiced this was to always pull the bad guys trigger. If it goes bang great, if not, draw your own gun, and pull the trigger till the fights over and the threats stop. Remember to check your 6.

We trained with real guns. There is no substitute for the real thing. No ammo should be in the building. 3 people clear each gun 3 times. Some people are not comfortable with this.

We also trained in retention. It is highly improbable that a ganster is going to be in a retention postion, as they usually appear weak. If you are dealing with a professional that is in a CQC retention stance, chances are he is one of the good guys and will not be asking for your wallet. If he does give it to him.

Larry Jordan was one of the instructors, and although he doesn't address these techniques in his book, it worth getting just for the chapter on mindset.


Dirty Dozen by Larry Jordan
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 09:19 AM

You have it partialy correct.

Clear and control the line of fire.

Control the body not the gun. To counter your technique all I have to do is fall or pull. The gun will center on you.

There are many ways to "neutralize" your subject. Shooting him with his own gun is only one.

If you counter attack by striking before you control the subject...again the gun will center on you.

Assuming that someone is a good guy by his stance and or training well you know what assume means.

Ass out of you and me.

Ed
Posted by: Conad

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 02:44 PM

Quote:

You have it partialy correct.


Control the body not the gun. To counter your technique all I have to do is fall or pull. The gun will center on you.







Ed, once I control the gun, you cannot get it to "center on me", because the gun is mine. I have done these techiniques full speed with some absolutely incredibly experienced training partners. You cannot react fast enough to stop the disarm.

If you are willing to travel I will see if I can get you seat in one of our CQC classes. I will even get one of the instructors do the 70 mph disarm on you, and maybe a live ammo demo.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 05:24 PM

yeah ok, I'll stick with my military cqc training. Thanks anyway. Ed
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 05:49 PM

Quote:



Ed, once I control the gun, you cannot get it to "center on me", because the gun is mine. I have done these techiniques full speed with some absolutely incredibly experienced training partners. You cannot react fast enough to stop the disarm.

If you are willing to travel I will see if I can get you seat in one of our CQC classes. I will even get one of the instructors do the 70 mph disarm on you, and maybe a live ammo demo.




Two things:

#1. Demos are just that. What an instructor who has rehearsed a bazillion times can do in a demo, does not indicate a. what he can do realtime and b. what he can reliably teach to the average person. This should be obvious.

#2. Live ammo demos? This is the height of ego driven insanity.

Before this turns into a "but my instructor can...." argument, stop. There are several people on this board who have been there and done that.

Thanks.
Posted by: Conad

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 06:45 PM

Ed, you would be getting military CQC training from the guys who developed it and still get invited to instruct at JFK SWC.

Fletch those things were demo'd because of the inhierant danger involved. For that reason it's only done by real operators. I am glad this board has people that have been there and done that.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 09:09 PM

I am familiar with JFKSWCS. SFAS, SFQC, SERE, etc. Basic SF prior to moving on to Group.

Just because someone is contracted to teach there is not an exclusive endorsement of product or information. The military has funds available to bring instructors from the private sector and can (and often does)fall into the same marketing traps that civilian police agencies do.

Not terribly comforting to hear that the only people dumb enough to train disarms with live ammo are the ones classified as "Operators". With the training safety issues I am aware of at JFKSWCS, I seriously question this practice and/or the origin of this report.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/08/05 10:25 PM

I agree with Fletch.

Live ammo drills?! Have you lost your MF mind?

While I do not have that much firearm training, I was shown to basically control the weapon to one side of the opponent's centerline, while moving your body to the other side if possible.

Thankfully, I have never had to use any of it for real.

Hopefully it will stay that way.
Posted by: Conad

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/09/05 02:32 PM

Since you are in SF Group Fletch, I will send you a reply out of thread.

A demo is not the same as training. This is more of a once a year event.

Hell I was uncomfortable doing it with real guns at all. Then it was pointed out that, that it was that uncomfortable feeling that needed to be trained out of. Made more since after actually doing it.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/09/05 04:03 PM

So conrad, just because curiosity kills the cat, who are you with?
Ed
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/09/05 05:37 PM

Never said I was with Group. I was with JFKSWCS for a while and I have had Group personnel train with me.

JFKSWCS is rather anal about safety in training (as they should be). I find it hard to believe they would allow any such activities as you list to be conducted by "Operators".

No SOCOM or any other commander is going to risk their careers ptting their names on such reckless insanity.
Posted by: Conad

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/09/05 06:57 PM

Quote:

Basic SF prior to moving on to Group.





Sorry fletch, I misunderstood this line then.

Ed, I am retired US Army. If you meant the CQC class, we are a private group thats gets together every month. The group has a nice mix of military, martial artits, and LE.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/09/05 09:40 PM

"private group thats gets together "
Thank you I do not need to know anything else. Good day.
Ed

PS I have been to live fire exercises but they were not as conad has discribed.
Posted by: Nevermiss

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/15/05 04:27 PM

His aim will be erratic? Since when do you need good aim to hit a grown man at point blank range for being stupid enough to reach for your gun? Try it with a paintball gun, you'll get hit every time. The only way you could disarm a man and not get shot is if he's really stupid and turns his head or gets really close and semi-distracted. An "attacker" is almost as scared as you are, he's not going to trust being 4 inches from you, he's most likely going to be four or five feet back. In which case you'd have a lot of ground to cover before even making contact. And you're right about the controlled settings. But if you're scared, already have your gun out, paying attention, and a guy reaches for you, doesn't common sense tell you it'll take less time to squeeze off a quick shot than to take a step or two, grab the gun, aim the gun away from your self, and then do some move that only works for Jackie Chan?
Posted by: Nevermiss

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 05/15/05 04:35 PM

I also had to say this: Live ammo for a gun disarm demo...are you retarded? Somebody is retarded to even think of that, either you, or your trainer. Well you both must be, him for allowing somebody to point a gun with live ammo at him, and you're retarded for following up with somebody retarded enough to let somebody aim a gun at him. Keep this stuff simple guys, martial arts is OBSOLETE when it comes to a gun. If you seriously worry about your safety, get a legal carry permit and have a police officer teach you how to shoot and how to draw your weapon quickly. You can still use your martial arts on some dummy you'd rather not shoot, but if I man has a gun or knife don't play Jackie Chan, this is real life, and in real life life can end. If a man's trying to kill you, end his first, call the cops, go home, and call it a day.
Posted by: Mr_Davies_VA

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/01/08 07:01 PM

I don't agree with you John. I train and instruct firearm disarms. Disarms are possible if you train consistently and maintain an offensive mindset. If you disarm as a reflex, then yes, chances are your opponent is going to turn your head into a canoe. But if you take the initiative and disarm offensively, you have a good chance. First you should act submissively by avoiding eye contact and making a statement like "okay, take whatever you want" or "why God, why are you doing this?". The purpose of this is to get the opponent to lower thier guard and focus on what you are saying, changing thier brain function from active (fast) to reactive (slow). If you execute a direct and aggressive disarm (more Krav than Aikido) in mid sentence you should be able to clear the line of fire before the weapon discharges. I use loaded airsoft pistols as re-enforcement tools. Something about an 8mm pellet to the forehead encourages students to take the technique seriously and assume an aggressive posture. I've compiled data from the justice department and it showed that people are most likely to become victims of simple or aggrivated assault and have a low chance of getting shot, so I would listen to John and hand over the watch and wallet. But if you get that "I'm going to die" feeling, then I would go for it. On a related note, knives are a different story. If you run a scenario where the attacker is really trying to plant the blade, you'll probably find out that the situation usually ends bad (a red sharpe is a good tool to check). If anyone has some tips on dealing with blades (outside of beating feet) please reply.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/01/08 07:14 PM

Thanks Mr. Davies...

For responding to something I wrote nearly four years ago.

After considering it a little further, I don't really mind talking about this but, my opinion hasn't changed in all that time -- even after seeing several Bourne Identity movies.


-John
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/02/08 08:24 AM

Concerning training with live ammo,which was mentioned as I skimmed the post,Iv know that people seriouse about it and good do train with live ammo in the sense that the gun could go off while you have it in your hand and are attempting controll,if you get that far of course.This can be shocking and loud and maybe hurt your hand depending on the gun or where you grab it.I dont know much about guns but mechanisms move when its fired.
So they train and hold the gun while someone else fires to see what its like.This is a part of good gun disarm training as far as I know.

Knife tips?

The stabber rarely shows and the shower rarely stabs.

Thats the golden motto that iv heard from people in the know.
If you were being fully aware and not in a stupid situation you had put yourself in then its plain bad luck and you dont stand that much of a chance.
And really its a case of damage limitation and getting away.
Getting away first obviously.
If not possible, equalise by getting weapon yourself to help escape.
If not possible damage limitation and protect your vital areas.
Turn your palms to face you with your forearms vertical and cover vital areas and take it there rather than anywhere else if you are going to take something.
Not passively of course ,in the process of escaping or attacking back just to survive if its an only option.
I think its a good idea to mentaly accept its going to be violent and you will likely get cut.
Also it depends on the knife as to what they can do.Slash or stab etc.If you have time and composure to actualy take note of that.
Now I am no expert and that might get torn apart as weapon defence is a bit of an iffy area but thats some of the stuff iv come across from those that know.
Posted by: animematt

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/10/08 12:22 AM

Generally, from what I have learned from police and martial arts people... If you are very close, a many with the knife has a bit of an advantage, cause it takes time to aim and pull the trigger. Add human reaction time into this too.
Keep in mind that you will generally be surprised by an attacker too.
Posted by: Th0r

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/10/08 10:32 AM

@ Animematt

You are right. When it comes to close quarters fighting involving a gun and by close quarters I mean right up close to your attacker [15-30cm away], you will have a slight advantage with a knife.

The advantage is only slight and when you are extremely close to the guy with the gun...
Posted by: animematt

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/10/08 11:00 AM

I have seen a better advantage for a knife wielder when he was over 7 feet away. This was also with the gun drawn and at low ready. The best way to defend against a knife with a gun is to shoot before he really starts attacking cause any normal person can close a 10 foot gap between people rather quickly.
Posted by: brocksampson

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/10/08 09:03 PM

And then go to jail.
Remember, in the real world, when you shoot someone who has not attacked you, you've just become the BG. Just a reality check.
As far as the gun disarms mentioned above (and several years back) they CAN work but it's lower odds stuff than i like to usually train. In other words, they are too dangerous and require the correct setup from the attacker. Lots of LE agencies cover this "technique" to some degree in combatives(that's where I first saw them). Statistically, people who have run away the instant the gun comes out, have much higher survival odds. LE agents are not usually afforded this option.
Posted by: animematt

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/10/08 10:14 PM

If someone is threatening your life, most decent places allow you to defend yourself.... So if someone draws a knife on me, it is perfectly legal for me to shoot him dead.
Posted by: Vennificus

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 02/11/08 02:59 PM

If someone has a knife and you have a gun,
you just walk away with your gun pointing at them, If they lunge, you shoot.
the judges usually agree, the guy with the gun has the upper hand.
Posted by: janxspirit

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/04/08 06:26 PM

Quote:

If someone is threatening your life, most decent places allow you to defend yourself.... So if someone draws a knife on me, it is perfectly legal for me to shoot him dead.




Good luck in court.
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/07/08 07:48 AM

While I would not wish to give legal advice on anything let alone the ultra complicated world of deadly force, I will say that there is a standard of reasonableness that you have to meet with your actions. That is... your actions need to be in line with what other reasonable people would have done in similar circumstances and with similar options.

Someone threatening you with a deadly weapon is affected by several things. What was their opportunity? What was their capability? What was their apparent intent? How afraid were you that violence was imminent? Was that fear reasonable?

If the guy across the street has a box cutter and is challenging you to fight so he can cut you and you have a gun, you might not be justified in the eyes of the law in shooting him.

If he is holding a gun not pointed at you and threatening to kill you, you might be justified in using deadly force whether it is a gun, a car or a garden hoe.

Some regions require that when faced with a deadly threat, you must retreat until it is no longer possible or practical and only when backed into a corner can you respond with deadly force. These are the places where you hear about people being criminaly charged when they shoot burglars inside their home. Some juries believe that you can always run away or hide under the bed with your families and not confront a felonious intruder lest something bad happen.

Fed up with this mentality, some regions have adopted "Stand Your Ground" or "Make My Day" laws that say you don't have to flee your home or your car to avoid having to use deadly force to protect yourself from someone posing a threat of serious bodily harm or death... as long as you reasonably believe that that threat is real and imminent.

That "reasonable" thing can be a tall order for a lot of people and is a nother reason why it is not necessarily a bad thing that most people elect not to own or carry firearms. It is still an enormous responsibility to carry and make the conscious decision to use it to protect yourself.

It is a very real burden that should not be romanticised or taken lightly.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/07/08 12:38 PM

States are beginning to see the common sense of Castle doctrine laws and "immenent threat" laws in the use of deadly force for self defense, and much of it is being driven by soaring crime rates in specific areas. If anyone thinks they're "Dirty Harry", they shouldn't be carrying a gun as a civilian... but solid, concealed carry laws and programs to train people "what's right and what's legal"... need to be in force.

My neighborhood has gone from a "safe" zone to a war zone over the last 5 years, and I've started carrying my pistols most of the time now. It's a matter of being a victim or being able to defend yourself from deadly force.

If the rates of murder, carjacking, home invasion, and assault are up in your area... I would recommend concealed carry... if they're not, I would recommend having a weapon "readily accessible".

As a former LEO, if there was one thing I learned from being on the force was that good intentions will get you killed. Self defense is just that... and if your area is unsafe, you need to be prepared. Everybody's situation can be different... but the needs are the same. We had a saying on the Sheriff's office that was "make it alive to the end of the shift"... and that points out that regardless of what "shift" you're on, there's dangers out there.

Follow the rules, and stay safe.

Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/07/08 08:36 PM

Think you're safe at home? Think again...
http://greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080307/NEWS01/80307009/1004/NEWS01

The earlier version of this story had the guy tagged for 2 home invasions and 2 burglaries...

Now you know why I carry a gun around the house too...



Posted by: BrianS

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/07/08 08:50 PM

I don't see anything wrong with having a gun in the house to defend yourself with.

I think you are just stirring the pot Grady.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/07/08 10:46 PM

No, Brian... merely showing folks that things are going on out there besides the weather. This guy is probably responsible for 4 attempted break-ins and two assaults in one night... so you can't sit on your couch and think that you're perfectly safe. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the kind of gun control you need is a firm grip and good sight pattern.

This guy was around for hours... so when you think the police are going to be there for you, you might be hours away from any help... especially on a weekend night.

My son lives near Charlotte, NC and they publish a magazine every week called "Slammer"... which is pictures and charges for all the people arrested that week. It should tell you something when you have enough people going to jail that you can turn it into a magazine... it sells for a buck.

Sleep tight... I'm sure you're safe...

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/08/08 12:30 AM

Geeze wrist....

Maybe we should all arm ourselves to the teeth to protect ourselves from these illegal immigrants....wait..he looked American!!

Get over yourself. I'm armed ok!! I have an RPG ready to defend my house brother!!!
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/08/08 12:46 AM

It doesn't matter what he looks like, but since you brought it up...
http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/profiles/ms13/

These are the kind of good citizens that are pouring over our borders. When they show up in your neighborhood, be sure to greet them with the smarta$$ answers rather than a gun. I'll send flowers...

Posted by: Dedicated1

Re: Gun Disarm; Pistol Front - 03/08/08 08:22 AM

Here we go again!