Group specific martial arts classes

I can understand why some classes are split into age groups or grades etc. but what do you all think of martial arts classes that only teach specific groups?

I have come across Karate for Christ who only teach Christians, several womens martial arts groups that won't even let males over 15 in the dojo and a gay and lesbian group.

What do you all think about these types of group?

Incidently I also run classes for a specific group; they are called people [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon
Sorry this should have gone in the Martial Arts Talk section.

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 10-21-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
I can understand why some classes are split into age groups or grades etc. but what do you all think of martial arts classes that only teach specific groups?

I have come across Karate for Christ who only teach Christians, several womens martial arts groups that won't even let males over 15 in the dojo and a gay and lesbian group.

[/QUOTE]

ahhhh, wow! I had no idea. Thats an awesome idea. Right I'm off to start my own club for 19 yr old male students of mixed race that weigh no more than 10 1/2 stone. I think I'll be a 12th dan..........

seriously, each to their own, but why? It can't make for good training.

Hi Sharon

Given that some people train in MA's as a social activity, it seems like they're creating a specific group of people with similar ideas that they would like to train with.

Nothing particularly wrong with it. I don't see any great benefit either.

I guess if I were to attend a gay MA group and while grappling was grabbed by the nuts, at least I'd know the guy was gay as opposed to guessing. I'm not sure if that's a benefit or not [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

I have a book called Fighting Arts( I think a later edition had a different title). One chapter deals with a martial art from India called Kalaripayit. You have to be hindu to become a student.

Kalaripayit does come from India but as far as I'm aware you don't have to be hindu to practice it.

JohnL

I think it largely depends upon what they claim to be teaching. If it's a social thing, I guess it doesn't particularly matter how the class is made up, although there's a lot to be said for broadening one's horizons further, imo.

If it's self defence, I don't think groupings by particular beliefs are especially detrimental to training (or at least I don't see why they would be). I have concerns about these groups "ghettoising" themselves, but hey, it's their choice.

In terms of self defence though, I think groupings according to physical characteristics could be detrimental - the idea of women's only self defence (when women are far, far, more likely to be attacked by a bloke, sadly) seems fundamentally misguided. Not only are they not training for the most likely scenario they could face, it strikes me that they're subconciously reinforcing the idea of the male as some unbeatable bogeyman, too dangerous even to be allowed in the class. Hopefully such classes serve as a "toe in the water" type deal, and the participants go on to armbarring muscular he-man types in later classes [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Me, I don't care who's in the class - an arse kicking from a 200lb christian is probably much the same as one from a 200lb heathen [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by charles mckey (edited 10-21-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I guess if I were to attend a gay MA group and while grappling was grabbed by the nuts, at least I'd know the guy was gay as opposed to guessing. I'm not sure if that's a benefit or not [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Arf! I should think you'd both be too concentrated on not getting tapped out - leastways, I'd hope so... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Out of interest, how many people here do, or have attended, mixed grappling classes (male/female, I mean)? Was inappropriate contact (for want of a more elegant phrase) a problem? Apocryphally, I've heard that it does put women off training in grappling arts.

[This message has been edited by charles mckey (edited 10-21-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Kalaripayit does come from India but as far as I'm aware you don't have to be hindu to practice it.

JohnL

[/QUOTE]

Well, that's what it said in the book. At least one of the authors went to India and interviewed the instructors. Of course, just because those particular instructors restricted their classes does not mean that all Kalaripayit instructors would do that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by charles mckey:
Arf! I should think you'd both be too concentrated on not getting tapped out - leastways, I'd hope so... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Out of interest, how many people here do, or have attended, mixed grappling classes (male/female, I mean)? Was inappropriate contact (for want of a more elegant phrase) a problem? Apocryphally, I've heard that it does put women off training in grappling arts.

[This message has been edited by charles mckey (edited 10-21-2003).][/QUOTE]

Check out my post in the "sparring" thread of a few weeks ago. The females in our class have to wrestle whoever is available just like the males do. Do arms and hands brush against a breast or a crotch? Sure, from time to time. Is it a big deal? Not for anyone, as far as I can tell.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by charles mckey:
Out of interest, how many people here do, or have attended, mixed grappling classes (male/female, I mean)? Was inappropriate contact (for want of a more elegant phrase) a problem? Apocryphally, I've heard that it does put women off training in grappling arts.[/QUOTE]

We do it all the time and have not had any problems. We grapple anyone, any time, no inappropriate contact, no big deal.

The only difficulty is for the smaller women/girls grapplng the larger blokes but its actually great practice and good to try out techniques.

An armbar or choke is just as effective on the larger ones....... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I have grappled with lots of men (no funny comments, I mean in a training environment [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]). I have only met one man who treated me inappropriately and that happened during partnered stretching not in grappling. He was suitably dealt with and as faras I know, no longer trains.

As Xeres said the odd brushing of delicate parts is unavoidable but if neither side makes a big deal out of it there is no problem and it is no more embarrasing than grappling with another female.

I also think that woman should grapple men for the reasons Charles stated.
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
I also think that woman should grapple men for the reasons Charles stated.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly - a BJJ instructor in another forum puts it this way "If you want to train to stop a 250lb guy between your legs keeping you on the floor, you should train with a 250lb guy between your legs trying to keep you on the floor..."

I should clarify my earlier post by saying that the stories I've heard of women being put off grappling arts aren't due to them actually experiencing some fellow getting his jollies from training, but rather them seeing a training session (and the proximity involved) and thinking "Eeew".

[This message has been edited by charles mckey (edited 10-21-2003).]

You know what? If I could remove the kids who don't want to train or are too noisy, and the adults I find annoying, that's all the bloody restrictions I require.

I like the "Dr Phil" approach to fighting back or "getting real" - telling someone who is fat there is nothing wrong won't help, and entirely women's calss won't help these rabid feminazis how to beat off a 300lb trained or formerly incarcerated person trying to rape them.

That definately can't be good for training, an all girls or guys course, you don't get the body size and strength differences and such, i know that some of the women in my class(and a couple guys too) have trouble working with me because i am so tall and have so much reach, but it trains them to deal with people bigger than them. I have trouble with a fellow student because he is so much stronger than me i just can't do some of the moves against him, which is good training, it reminds me of what not to do against stronger people, which is about everyone [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

What struck me most about these groups other than what has already been covered is this:

How much backlash do you think there would be if,for example, one of us said that our group was for hetrosexuals only - no gays?
Or what if an organisation said no women?

I am sure there would be a public outcry.

I was so intrigued by the christian group that I contacted them to ask why they would not train people of other religions. They really had no satisfactory answer and they were far from "christian" in their attitude to other religions.

What a funny old world.
Sharon

Interesting... I've been asked to set up a Karate and Tai Chi club in the biggest Sikh Temple in Europe, but as an ancient white English Atheist with slight Buddhist and Taoist leanings on nice days I guess it's good that they asked me. . I have meetings with the Guru over the next few months.

I have a very multi ethnic club and a traditional Shinto Buddhist shrine in my Dojo and the only objections I ever had to it were from a rare few fundamentalist Christians.

I have always found most people tolerant, open minded and happy to mix if somewhat embarassed in the beginning. However, they soon lose their inhibitions after the first few lessons. I'm not sure that a restricted group would reinforce those inhibitions ar help to lose them, I guess it would depend on the leaders. whether they preach tolerance or intolerance.....

Steve

An all women's group I can understand as an introductory thing, if it makes certain women more comfortable, but only for a few weeks (if that long), then things need to be mixed up. All men's group, don't see the point.

A gay and lesbian club, personally I don't see the point, but I guess it would be an issue for some people. I think having the specific groups just draws attention to something that shouldn't even be relevant. Although I suppose the sight of two lesbians grappling could be something of a distraction to all the heterosexual males, or so I've been told! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

An all Christian group, WTF???


-Charlie

...ah wait, it's for defence against lions, right?! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

lol @ Charlie's lion comment [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fighting Dwarf:
...ah wait, it's for defence against lions, right?! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

...whereas single sex classes provide defence against loins...

bdum-tish!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by charles mckey:
...whereas single sex classes provide defence against loins...
![/QUOTE]

ROFL
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I agree w/ Fighting Dwarf in that "women only" type classes should be introductory only.

In the kwoon (school) I train at, they offer a Women's Self Defense camp (2 day event offered to busy individuals), geared for women and possible scenarios. There are males participating, but only as "dummies" who wear protection and let the women pratice their techniques and beat on the men. It's basically a crash course in basic self-defenese for the most common scenarios. The women are faced w/ preforming technique on male agressors doing a specific set of drills. Later on, if the women want to continue to learn and expand their MA/self-defense, then they can join the regular Wing Chun Do classes offered (and that's Co-ed).

I think it's a good opportunity for people to get accostomed to a MA in their own way. I'm in no way generalizing women, but in my experiences - I found that some women are put off by training w/ men. Whether they think that the men will show off and be overbearing or that they will made fun of, I'm not sure. However, giving a person a choice to start learning in an enviroment that he/she is comfortable with is a paramount inclusion. So I think that schools should have an intro course for women to get accostomed to techniques (such as punching, hitting, dodging, kicking, follow-ups, combos, etc.) and then mix them into regular adult co-ed classes where they'll learn how to deal w/ different body types.

Emuc64

[This message has been edited by Emuc64 (edited 11-07-2003).]