Offensive Knife Technique

Ok, I have a new move of the month posted on my web site. It is a knife slash to the throat with a throw. Enjoy! Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

B.S.

Don't hold back there Chen!

Ed, just out of curiosity, why do you want to teach people how to go up and attack someone with a concealed weapon? Now, come up with a defence against that technique and... well, it probably wouldn't work... but anyway...

-Charlie

Tanto-jutsu was a major part of the jujutsu that I studied. For me, the knife is my weapon of choice in cqc situation. Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
B.S.[/QUOTE]

Chen,
I am guessing that B.S. does not stand for "Bloody Super"
Sharon [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
B.S.[/QUOTE]

Why??
I'm not saying yea or nay, just curious about your take.

Ed, You moron! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Isshin Dude (edited 09-11-2003).]

Technicaly and in the context in which such a technique might be used, ie: in a military CQB situation or as a face on sentry elimination, its pretty sound. I can see why some people are bothered by it as it puts "us" in the position of the agressive blade carrier, whereas most people train as the defender in such a situation. It's a different perspective and while most people
(certainly in the UK) would be stupid to carry a blade for self defence purposes it is valid in its own right.

Regds
Mr V

Thanks V.

Ed,

Is that knee strike in frame 3 intending to double the "bleeder" over into the throw?

What keeps the "bleeder" from backing away? It's probably obvious from the other angle.

Chris

I also have a great knife technique.

It involves creeping up behind a person, stabbing them in the ass, when they turn to see what's going on I stab their foot (pinning it to the floor so they can't move) at that point I do a sequence of unarmed moved which I can't tell you about as they're secret and if I told anyone I'd then have to kill them.
I then would apply Ed's technique of the month (with my second knife) just in case.

Ed.

You should have put your new move of the month on your web site earlier. You could have then just pointed the schoolchild asking advice about bullying to it instead of givving out the sh*t advice you did in that thread.

You're clearly an idiot.

JohnL

john,
Harsh, even for you but....ROFLMAO [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I also have a great knife technique.

...........................

You're clearly an idiot.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Can't stop laughing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I also have a great knife technique...
Ed.

You should have put your new move of the month on your web site earlier. You could have then just pointed the schoolchild asking advice about bullying to it instead of givving out the sh*t advice you did in that thread.

You're clearly an idiot.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

ROFLMAO [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

John, in case you've been considering a career move: Those vacancies at the State Dept. for the Diplomatic Corps? I'd suggest it might be a waste of your time!!!

Csinca, Yes, the knee strike is to round out uke's back so I can get in for the throw. I keep up with uke's backward movement in the attack by one grabing his right arm and 2. after the initial slash I hook the back of his neck with the knife. Ed

--rant warning--

The signal to noise ratio here continues to baffle me.

I have trained in martial arts in some capacity since I was seven years old. At 32, I continue to learn something new every day.

Want to know what I am learning this week? This week I am learning that I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I learned this by chatting with some experienced knife fighters.

I talked to prison guards and law enforcement officers here in the United States who routinely witness knife attacks.

From the cavalier attitudes here in this forum, it is clear that few if any of you know how dangerous knives are.

Three months ago a man approached four families having a picnic and sat quietly a picnic table where the fathers were talking. He seemed strange, a harmless little fellow, about 5'6" tall and 160 pounds. Moments later two fathers were dead, a third was dying, and the fourth was running to his truck with his child... He managed to get to the truck and hit the attacker, who then fled in his own car.

In less than a minute or two, three families lost their fathers to one skinny guy with a blade. One little guy with no training other than some time in prison and a hard heart. Four grown men. But not you, right? You would probably just side kick the little twerp into next month without even stopping to put down your chicken.

This week in Florida a police officer used a tazer on an uncooperative subject. The officer is currently in the hospital recovering from the stab wounds he received after the tazer failed to drop the subject. The subject is recovering from gunshot wounds he sustained from someone who probably sees tazers in a whole new light. They rank right up there with pepper spray in that they're wonderfully effective against the kinds of people you probably wouldn't need them for.

Many people who are stabbed to death die NEVER KNOWING THEY WERE STABBED. They may be wrestling with someone on the ground, thinking they are being punched in the back, and never know what is really happening until they bleed out.

My father worked a murder case where the *victim*, covered in what he thought was his attacker's blood, called an ambulance for his attacker because "I beat him up pretty bad". He passed out while talking to the 911 operator on the phone. The "winner" of that fist fight was dead before police arrived-- he never saw the knife, and never knew he was being stabbed.

Yet those of you who bother to train with knives at all will hand them to your partners, square off, and start practicing with a whole list of advantages that most stabbing victims never have... you at least know you're in a knife fight, and you see the blade, and a lot of times the attack is even scripted for you.

The reality is that most people who attack with knives never show the blade, and many of them carry more than one knife.

So Ed here shows you guys a little tiny piece of information that most likely isn't in most of your "training scenarios"-- a surprise attack, with a reverse grip. How many of you here know what the word "Pikal" means? Ed's attack would be a LOT less funny if you did. (For those of you who *do* know, I know Ed's attack is not pikal per se, but it made me think of it. I fear it.)

I know Ed has dished out his share of attitude, and I know sometimes his explanations are less articulate than some of you might like, but I have said before EVERY TIME SOMEONE SHARES SOMETHING HERE, IT IS A CHANCE FOR YOU TO LEARN. You may learn by accepting, or learn by critiquing, but you can learn.

I have noticed over the past few months that the loudest critics almost NEVER contribute any technical information. If your sole purpose here is to stroke your own ego by breaking down people you don't even know from hundreds of miles away, consider saving the bandwidth and going outside for some air and a dose of reality.

So what did most of you get out of this? A chance to make a few smart ass comments at someone else's expense. I haven't encountered this kind of "martial arrogance" in real life except from teenage tae kwon do black belts. I know that doesn't apply to most of you here, but the things you say are indistinguishable for the most part-- if it quacks like a duck, yadda yadda...

On the off chance you actually DO know it all, then save the smart ass comments and give us something technically sound that we can use. Open that massive knowledge base you built and share the secret ninja stuff you got from your neighbor's uncle who never had a son or daughter of his own to train...

--end rant--

Since sentry removal is not on the list of things I expect to have to accomplish, I looked at Ed's technique of the month from the standpoint of the defender. I thought the first cut, where the attacker grabs one arm and immediately brings the (as yet unseen) knife into play was something similar to what we might actually see "in the wild".

The follow up techniques and throw, while appropriate for the scenario for which they were devised, most likely wouldn't happen in the wild. I think the street thug attacker would most likely be content to just keep making holes in you until you fall down.

So, honestly, pretend you're walking down the street and someone takes your arm as shown in the picture, maybe not even that agressively. Can I borrow some change? Is that your car? Have you seen my kid, he's wearing a blue shirt and...

It doesn't matter what he says... he's grabbed your elbow to get your attention for something, and you are about to sprout a knife from your neck.

Will you even have time to flinch? Will you be concentrating on the hand he is holding you with? Are you going to punch the next five people who have the misfortune of touching your arm in public because you're paranoid now?

Next time you head to the dojo, slip a training knife into your gi, dobak, whatever... Don't advertise it, just hang on to it. Some time when things aren't going your way-- maybe sparring, practicing katas with a partner, hanging out at the water fountain...

ATTACK. STAB AND STAB AND STAB. Want to know what you are going to get in response? I bet I know. You will get a nervous laugh, a confused look, and a victim who will most likely stand there and take cut after cut-- he may turn away from you and cover his head...

Ask him, or her... do you really want to die with that stupid look on your face?

I'm not paranoid. I don't walk around wired all the time, looking behind every car and sizing up every person I pass on the street. But I also, based on my limited experience and the few tidbits of information I have managed to pound through my thick skull over the years, don't spend a lot of time bashing strangers. You just really never know who you are dealing with.

I have a hard time believing that all of you are as smart and battle hardened as you make yourselves out to be out here in the ether-- but I'm also smart enough (dumb as I am) to know better than to call you on it. If you can't afford each other respect on general principle, then maybe respect the unknown. But start respecting something, before the forum unravels at the seams...

Thanks for listening.

I agree with "themikey".

Knives are crap. Run. Only fight back if you are highly experienced and prepared to get cut. Or can acheive peace through superior firepower.

Infamous criminal and now comic and artist, mark Brandon "Chopper" Read, who spent half of his life in the Australian prison system, said that being shot and stabbed are both like being hit by very hard punches, except that stabbed is cold and shot is very hot.

The fool laughs and scoffs,the wiseman listens and questions.

I personaly do not know much about knife fighting(except pointy end bad), therefore I would not tear apart someone else's post on that topic.
I have noticed a general trend to automaticaly attack anything posted by a certain person/persons. These attacks are personel attacks and display very little logic or rational reasons of why the post is faulty. The attack is usualy something along the lines of,"you are an idiot" etc.,
This is usualy the resort of someone who has no facts, experience, or knowledge to rely on to refute a statement or post by someone else.
If you can in fact offer good, solid, rational arguments as to why something is wrong, please post it so the ignorant such as I can learn.
I know I have as much fun as anyone else taking shots at some people, but usualy not on technical details.

CQB is exactly what it says "Close" and its obvious that if your dealing with a knife that is not where you want to be. You want to be far away may running away. Sayoc Kali will make you a believer in the power of the blade. I have been in law enforcment for may years and although I knew knives were dangerous I never had the respect for them that I now do after training in the Sayoc System. Mr. Glasheen clearly knows his material however from a law enforcment stand point I can honestly say I hope that some of my alternative school kids never see click on you link for the "Tech of the Month".

True while this is a cqb type of attack,504mikey hit a point. What would you do to defend yourself from this attack. Granted it is a suprise,but hey most knife hits I have witness are. So tell me what would you do to counter it.
Running away is not an option. I have grabbed you. You can change the attack to a grab and stab if you will like. Which is more common type of attack. Ed

Right, this is way ott.

Defence against knife attack, from determined aggressor, with ability:

None.

You die.

The end.

Stop grabbing the high ground of experience and casting us down as fools and people with cavalier attitudes.

You might as well do: defence against gun.

I train under people who have faced knives in the course of their day to day job.

Knives aren't funny, this forum is. Its a talking shop and you lot are too quick to cast judgement.

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 09-13-2003).]

OK lay down and die then, for the rest what would you do? Ed

My apologies, YS-- I wasn't grabbing the high ground of experience-- I will be the first to admit, and believe I stated in all caps in my previous post, that I know nothing.

Still, I was (and still am) claiming the moral high ground of not stooping to throwing pot shots at those who are trying to contribute. I think some of the "this is BS" and "you're an idiot" posts were not only not funny, but totally inappropriate. I'm all for the occasional joke, and even a good flaming on occasion, but it seems there are people here who only want to flame and offer little else. There are better places to do that than the self defense/street combat forum, IMHO.

I agree with your statement about knife defense for the most part-- if you are facing a determined attacker with ability and you are unarmed, you are in serious trouble. While I think your chance of surviving is astronomically low, my own stubborn mind won't let me say it's zero. If there is any conceivable way I can find to make it home, I am going to get there. I think your chances against a gun are also low, but at the range where knife fighting happens a gun is not necessarily more effective-- a knife works in any direction, never jams, doesn't run out of ammo, and does damage to whatever touches it. You can grab for the gun or gun arm-- grab a knifer's arm and you're most likely going to get shredded. Of course, from a couple of steps away the gun should always win.

Ed, moving on to the knife defense part, I think it's tough. I think your only chance is to do MAJOR damage to your attacker. Not knife defense, but totally committed OFFENSE. Unfortunately, legally (in a civilian context) you can't really do anything until there is a clear threat to your well being. Since the attacker in your technique doesn't show the blade until the attack is on, the defender is already one step behind.

I think the main thing is to cultivate awareness and be very sensitive to body positioning.

The defender should be thinking "There's a guy coming towards me, and I can't see his right hand." He should automatically adjust his own body position so he is outside the attacker's left arm, in his left front quadrant. This will make it harder for the attacker to connnect with whatever he has in his right hand.

Now he has maximum chance to see and react to the blade when it comes up. When that happens, it's got to be ON. There's not a defender any more-- there are two attackers engaged in combat. I am thinking check the blade arm whenever possible, and do as much damage as possible to whatever targets I can get at-- throat, knees, etc. I want to break things on my attacker, until he no longer functions.

I will be the first to admit that I don't have much confidence in my ability in this area. I am working on it, and I am finding out that all the joint locks and arm bars I have learned to apply to compliant opponents don't really fly when I fight with people who aren't programmed to respond in the "correct" way.

For me, awareness and body positioning are two things that can help. Use your environment, use any improvised weapons you may have at your disposal-- cane, umbrella, chair. Understand and become comfortable with your attacker's total commitment to violence-- and learn to cultivate enough of that in yourself to bring something to the table if the worst happens. Don't get involved in situations that you are not required to, and don't mess with strangers.

I can't claim authorship of any of this advice, but I am passing it on as it was passed to me. Take what you want and feel free to ignore the rest! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

While everyone is busy apologising to Ed, I make none.

This section of the forum is titled Self defense/Street conbat.

Ed's technique is neither. It is an out and out offensive technique potentially used on the battlefield. (On the battlefield it would be considered over elaborate)

As a street technique it is an irresponsible suggestion at best. To carry the sort of knife shown is illegal. To conceal it and attck the jugular will get you 15-life. After slashing the jugular to then stab someone in the neck will see you with a needle in your arm.

This technique is not self defence and is not a commonly used offensive method that you can train against.

As such I believe ED is still perpetuating the macho myth he has created in his own mind and the easily influenced teenagers follow at significant risk.

JohnL

Have nothing to add as JohnL has beat me to it. I agree with him whole heartedly.
Sharon

Wadowwomen if I remember it is you that trained with real knives and got cut. What was your pourpose behind that? Do you think some gang member is going to cut you politely? Some of you train, slashing the wrist or slashing the body blah blah blah. And thats it. Why even train with knives? You are so far off on your training I feel sorry for you. Granted you probally will not see the hip throw from a thug. A criminal WILL slash and stab your neck, stab your groin and cetrainly grab and stab you. Your west side story type of attack is so far left field of what reality is, it still makes me laugh. People do not duel with knives. Well ok on TV. So why do you still train that way? So you do not like my technique, cool. But one, you haven't shown me anything and two, most of the knive attacks that you WILL face are grab and stabs. Tell me o wise ones, for the moment, emotions aside, how will defend against such an offensive attack? Do you know? Ed
PS O and john people have been attack with much larger knives than this,ie machettes, axes and K-bars so my knife is not so far fetch. Civilain have been killed by them plenty of times by ordinary people. They are legal.

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 09-14-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Do you think some gang member is going to cut you politely? Some of you train, slashing the wrist or slashing the body blah blah blah. And thats it. Why even train with knives? You are so far off on your training I feel sorry for you. [This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 09-14-2003).][/QUOTE]

No one said they train like this. No one said 'ah we only train slashes to the body and wrist because......' You haven't seen the people on the forum train.

In short you made this up.

Actually no, the people in this forum have discribed how they trained. And I have experienced the typical dojo MA senerios that they have discribed so I have a pretty good idea. I welcome anyone else's photos on training methods. Especially one's they think that they may encounter on the street. Ed

Hi Ed

You start by saying that this is a demonstration of an offensive technique and have now switched to saying it's meant to make people think about how to defend against such a technique. Sorry Ed, I just don't believe you. You realised that as an offensive technique it was overkill and have backed off.

My opinion on the technique itself.

As an offensive technique;
I disagree with grabbing the arm first. It alerts the opponent to your motive and you lose the element of suprise you have tried to create. If I was using the knife, I'd consider the knee and throw parts as over elaborate. I'd just slash the front of the throat first on the forward stroke and the side of the neck on the backward. After that it may be assumed that the opponent has lifted his hands to his throat and you can then stab to the torso. (This is not advice to anyone!)

To defend against the technique;
If someone grabs you with one hand, make the assumption that the other contains a weapon. (If it doesn't, you're no worse off than when you started.)
Jerk your arm towards you and across your body. If it releases your arm, great, you've got some distance between yourself and the attacker, if it doesn't you're now on the outside of your opponents grabbing arm. While this isn't a defence, I'd rather be standing on the outside than directly facing the blade (or punch) in his other hand.

From there play it by ear, there's too many variables to be specific, but be aggressive.

As for your statement that your knife is legal. You're simply wrong. Certainly in the UK it's illegal. I also typed in "knife laws" on the net and the first 3 states I checked (NY, NJ, CT) also say knives of the type you are seen demonstrating with are illegal.

JohnL



[This message has been edited by JohnL (edited 09-15-2003).]

John thanks for your reply. No backpeddeling on my part, just wanted to get away from the bs statements. By now you know I could give two Shits about negative comments.
I have wittness four knife attacks in my life. Two military and two steet. The street attacks were all grab and stabs. The perp grabed the vitims arm, cross grab, and pulled to get his back. He then continued to stab the victim in the torso area.
The legality of the knive is debatable. If you can buy it at a store you can concider it legal. Of course if you conceal it and use it on someone it is illegal. Duh. But just owning one is not. Many of the blade attacks in NYC have been with large blades ie machette and kabar type knives. So your misinformed Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
The legality of the knive is debatable. If you can buy it at a store you can concider it legal. Of course if you conceal it and use it on someone it is illegal. Duh. But just owning one is not. Many of the blade attacks in NYC have been with large blades ie machette and kabar type knives. So your misinformed Ed[/QUOTE]

If you can buy it at a store it's legal.
Check out the nunchuku discussion.
Also, you have never suggested that you simply own a knife and neither carry it or use it. (I'll confess that that would be a pretty pointless exercise) As such, you intend carrying and using the knife. That is illegal.

The fact that machettes of kabar types have been used in NYC does not make them legal.

As such, I am not misinformed and the use of these will see you behind bars with a significant time to get aquainted with the 330lb "Bubba".

To suggest the use of these weapons is legal in any manner is irresponsible at best.

JohnL

JohnL

Legal or not people use them on a daily basis and people get killed. So what are you going to say to your attacker, wait stop that is illegal! Or are you going to learn how to protect yourself against these attacks. Or are you not going to learn because they are illegal. Because thats what you sound like. You worry too much about the law. That is a disadvantage on your part. The criminals do not worry about the law as you do. Your fear of procecution will hamper what you need to do in a self defense situation. You will pause and say, well I can't do that because it is illegal. Too late, you go to the hospital or at worse the mourge. I hope you never face a serious situation because you are not prepared. Ed

Well well well, always making assumptions on peoples abilities based on a web page arent we Ed? This isnt safe practice. Before you know it you start to carry it from the computer screen to the street makind all sorts of assumptions about people when really you have no idea. Surely the military taught you not to assume? John L, another rare instance which I agree with you, not so much on legality, but on your critique of the technique from a physical point of view.

Well Chen Chen you do have a mouth. What do you say we enter a NAGA event so you can put your money where your mouth is. Or are you just a computer geek. Let me know I will call Kip. Ed

What's an NAGA event?

North American Grappiling Association. They have Gi, No Gi and Vale Tudo events. Ed

Ed

Again you're trying to muddy the waters.

"Legal or not people use them on a daily basis and people get killed. So what are you going to say to your attacker, wait stop that is illegal!"

You said at first that the knife you used in the MofM was legal. Clearly it is not. I'm pointing out that if you use this weapon on the street in the manner you suggest, you'll be in trouble with the police. I also never suggested that you stop and tell the guy his weapon is illegal. You seem to be making it up as you go along.

"Or are you going to learn how to protect yourself against these attacks. Or are you not going to learn because they are illegal."

I suggested defensive moves and also suggested some flaws in your own offensive technique.

"You worry too much about the law. That is a disadvantage on your part. The criminals do not worry about the law as you do. Your fear of procecution will hamper what you need to do in a self defense situation."

I disagree. I will defend myself and will also use the law as a guideline. For you to suggest otherwise is irresponsible. I could easily defend myself by breaking the law. I could walk around carrying a loaded gun wherever I went, shooting anyone who came near me, just in case they might be thinking of attacking me.

I choose otherwise.

JohnL

If I stabbed you in the neck with my pen, the pen would be illegal. Criminal posession of a weapon. I understand your point but diagree. No problem with that or the fact you find flaws in my technique. I just think you amongst other worry too much about the law issue. Bottom line what ever happens it comes down to statements and lawyers. You have to agree with me thought, that people use these types of knives in crimes and we should train to defend ourselves against all type of modern weapons.Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
You have to agree with me thought, that people use these types of knives in crimes and we should train to defend ourselves against all type of modern weapons.Ed[/QUOTE]

Ed, I agree.

This is possibly the first reasonable statement you have made on this thread.

JohnL

Dear God, a consensus between Ed and JohnL?
Surely not! My belief system has just been up ended [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V

LOL....

I am still recovering from the first time I saw it (Ed and JohnL in agreement) happen (don't remember where), and that was months ago....

Time to buy lottery tickets again...

(edited because thread split to new page)

[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 09-17-2003).]

Ed, making shallow threats over the computer? Tasteless. However, intriguing. I dont grapple much however, with the steaming piles of shit that you try to pass as technique on here then I shouldnt have to worry much. So, I will go out of my style of fighting into one I am less experienced at and WIN. Do what you must to set it up, that is if you arent afraid.

Chen Zen

Just when it appeared that Ed and I had agreed on something and there was a chance for world peace, you had to post your load of juvenile bravado.

Maybe world peace was just too much to hope for. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

Kudos to Mikey. He's hit the nail squarely on the head. Sitting here in my squad car(it's a slow day) I'm recalling a traing tape entitled "surviving edged weapons" The acting is a little amaturish at times but the information is first rate. The technique demos by a Kali/escrima master(is it Dan Inosantos?) are great too. It also includes archival footage of a maniac knife attack on a stage full of people including Imelda Marcos. As the attacker leaps to the stage and begins stabbing and slashing ,the people and bodyguards just stand there shocked.As the body guards begin shooting him he continues his attack. eventually he sinks to his knees STILL SLASHING , then collapes. I dont know what the total injury and death count was but I can assure you it was substainal. Awareness is key. I personally recomend Col. Jeff Cooper's color codes and conditions of awareness , as well as watching peoples HANDS. There's usually a telltale to a palmed object. You may not know what it is but you can bet it isnt being palmed for your good health.
As for Ed's technique? Ive got no problem with it's offensive nature. I'm a reservist and there are two knives on my webgear , a Kabar and a gerber guardian. My only critisim of this and all similar technique sequences is that one can only plan to the FIRST variable (in this case the arm grab) after that all bets are off as to what will happen.
Good day to all and pray for whirled peas.

Sorry John, I just couldnt turn down a challenge, even if he is undeserving to battle with me.

Cool chen chen I'll be in touch. There is a contest I belive in November on the east coast. Can you travel? I think it is in NJ. Or we can wait until Mass destruction next year so you can employ your striking skills as this fight is Vale Tudo. Take a look at NAGA on the web and let me know. E-mail on my personal e-mail if you would like. Ed

Well well, the first proper FightingArts forum challenge. I don't usualy allow these kind of posts, because 95% of the time it's all hot air and bullshit. However, if you two are going to use the bandwidth for this end then I expect you both to go through with it. It would i'm sure you agree be a little humiliating for someone to back out after such a public build up. Please keep me informed of the details and dates.

By the way, me sanctioning your challenge posting is not a green light for any pre match trash talking and other crap. Just arrange it, and do it.

Kind Regds
Mr V



[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 09-20-2003).]

And if anyone can video and post it here that would be great.
Sharon

I got $10 on Chen Zen, any takers?

If you guys go through with this, please let me know. Post here or e-mail me. I live in the Philadelphia area and would certainly take the trip to see this...plus it would be cool to see some of the people on the forum.

Question,Who's bringing the popcorn? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

Back to the forum,Wadowwomen you were so quick to jump on the band wagon, What about answering my reply. I mean you should be able to now that you are so experience with a live blade. What if I grabed you and stabbed you in the gut. Want to practice with real knives now. Cause thats what they do on the street. Ed

Ed
I have NEVER once said that I am experienced in blade work, either on this forum or outside. It is because I am not experienced that I practice it so much with people who are (including members of the police and security).

I do not see how training with a live blade has any bearing on the fact that I do not consider your technique of the month to be a self defence technique.

This is not jumping on the band wagon. I am not afraid to express my opinions, I am just more polite about it than you seem capable of being.

To answer your question "What if I grabed you and stabbed you in the gut", well I'd probably bleed to death, obviously!
I train with rubber and real blades to hopefully learn to have a small chance of avoiding that.

In answer to your question "Want to practice with real knives now"., yes thank you, I do want to and I will.

I am well aware of what happens on the street and that most people seriously attempting to stab someone usually succeed. More reason to keep training.

If you are hoping to goad me into challenging you in the way Chen has, well, sorry to dissapoint you but I do not care whether you could kick my a$$ or I could kick yours. You are a sad, egotistical little man who wants everyone to tell you how great you are. Sorry Ed, I, for one, will not do that.
Sharon

Nice try sharon, no intentions to fight you. It just amazes me the lay down and die attitude. You seem very seroius in your training but yet you do not train real senerios. Forgive the spelling. The tit for tat logo mano that you practice will not save you in a real knife attack. You all so quick to jump on the band wagon to dis someone with a strong personality. Maybe the truth hurts. Just like in the first UFC when all the karate guys got thier asses kick. Maybe you know your training is not up to par and you are scared. Easy to dish out the comments. Why doesnt someone show me thier techniques in photo. Am I the only one.
The knife is not a sword. It is a very close in weapon. You need to train that way to survive. Not the sword play you do. Ed

Ed,
Why do you persist on commenting on the way I train without having met me? I am not saying I am brilliant or I know it all, I just don't think you do either. As for posting pictures, my computer does not have the facility to do that.

I am surpised that you have taken such offence when you are hardly reserved when it comes to rubbishing other people's posts.

Describing yourself as "a strong personality" is certainly one way of putting it.

I would prefer this to not degenerate into a slanging match, I am sure everyone else is getting bored. Suffice to say you think you are great and I disagree. I think I am fair minded and you think I am not.
Let's agree to disagree.
Sharon

Ok This is getting boring! Ed

Just to throw my hat into the ring, I would disagree that the "technique of the month" is indicative of a regular "attack" with a knife in a street situation. If it was then we are all of us well and truly screwed. The reason? Anyone that good with a blade will not show it, they will cut/stab and run and presumeably their targeting will be spot on. Training very hard on knife defence may give us a 5% chance against an attacker such as this. The majority of knife weilding opponents are not as skilled as that portrayed on Ed's website. Most use the blade as a tool of distraction, mental fear and indeed as a personal shield. It's job is mostly to coerce, especialy in a robbery situation. In an assault situation, the manic "psycho" left/right slashing whilst advancing is far more common, and thankfully easier (relatively) to counter. Ed's sequence serves a purpose of illustrating the sheer lethality of any bladed instrument, but it is misleading as to the regularity of such an assault. I agree with a previous poster that after the initial throat attack, the rest of the sequence is supposition as any number of variable may occur. Also it would be interesting to see the suggested defensive counter for this attack sequence.

Regds
Mr V

I have to play devil's advocate and agree with Ed. Wide swinging slashes and huge lunging stabs are the way to begin training against a knife. Mostly this seems to be because everyone has a disproportional fear of knives. Once the student becomes more comfortable with the idea of the knife, training should advance to more realistic attacks. As the level of training heightens so should the level of attack. If all we trained against was untrained, and sloppy attacks, training wouldn't be very difficult or very long. The dojo I attend does train against close in attacks as shown in Ed's technique of the month. Normally it becomes less about walking away completely injury free, and more about surviving. For example:

Against the attack shown, first moving to the outside of the grabbing arm is a good idea, as a few of you have posted already. If this isn't possible because the attacker is pulling you in you can at least parry with your free hand. Why? Because 1) This is how you might react anyway and 2)you don't know that he has a knife. I realize that the parrying hand would now be cut severely, but you wouldn't be bleeding out from your neck and you would know he has the knife. Surviving sometimes means that you get injured but at least you are alive.

Thank you! We know in my sequence that the knife is hidden. So you are initially reacting to the grab. Would the grab counters that you normally practice work in this situation? What if you attacked the attacker right away with say a punch in the face or throat. Do you think that might interupt his slashing game plan? I agree with working tha outside of a grab. How would you do it? Would you go for an standing armbar as some might train as a counter to grabs? Or would you strike the grabbing arm and proceed to further strike the uke in vital areas? Ed

The grab from your photo appears to be pretty weak, because the thumb can't fully wrap around the arm so it becomes the strength of the hand against your body moving away. As for attacking the attacker right away, if you realize he intends to hurt you, go for it. I think the more you can do to interfere with his plan, the better. I would tend to strike while moving to the outside of the arm, using his grab as a point to pivot around. Neck/face is probably safer until you know what you are dealing with, especially because of the psychological affect of something in your face. I think that it would tend to stop him because now instead of trying to kill you he has to defend himself. Vital areas are more or less distractions, but I would prefer to do serious damage.

I agree. Ed

I have said it before, but just get a rubber training knife, you wear a white “T” shirt give the knife to a NON Muppet. Get him to really go at you with slashes and thrusts. Then look at the black lines on the “T”shirt.

This provides a limited vision of a knife attack, but a harsh lesson never the less.

So, practice this drill within a circle, with any one of the circle attacking you in the middle with the knife, THEN look at the “T” shirt.

Mark

PS: or lets just keep on practicing the “X” block against a long straight knife lunge to the mid section, just like the real world……………………….

Ed,
I have just come back after some time away and I have read this thread with great interest.
I have looked at your 'move of the month' and I personally think the first move is a good covert attack. It is important for people to understand that knives can be hidden from view and used effectively in a very short time span. Ive seen this taught in various formats before usually with a distraction and the attacker moving off quickly afterwards i.e the slash then running off behind the opponent in one quick attack - thats why, to me, the rest of the technique seems pointless. Seems like youve just fancied it up abit to make it last the page.
As for defending against the technique.....in all knife attacks you are gonna get cut, if youve seen any of the police or FBI training tapes you should know youre gonna get cut its all about surviving the attack with as little damage as possible, however in this attack when done properly the first thing your gonna know (and maybe last) is the blood dripping down your neck. You can only hope that you get some warning of the attack - like the grab in your example, even then your still gonna cut cut, then you go into the arguement about where to get cut etc......which i think has been covered many times in the forum.
As for you comments about other members, ive studied karate for 21 years but that doesnt stop me knowing about edged weapons. I have trained with edged weapons for over 15 years in various styles so not just sword play, kamas, tantos, butterfly knives (wing chun) etc. So I know my stuff as well. As do many other members.
I know for instance that sharon is an excellent martial artist I dont think Ive ever seen her lay down and die.
Maybe you should broaden your mind a little, I mean if all you can say about karate is that all the karate guys in the first UFC got their asses kicked..... that says little about your knowledge base.

I disagree with the t-shirt training method. Again the attacker is only attacking my torso. To me that is pointless.
As far as my technique, My objective with the follow up moves is to control the opponent and take him to the ground. Most of the time slashes to the neck do not drop the opponent right away. And the cut may not be deep enough to sever the artery. So following up is always a good idea. Taking the guy to the ground instead of hacking away is another good idea. Low sillouete and stabing is way more effective and final than slashing. With that type of throw, using a double edge blade you can also cut the other side of the opponents neck. So the follow up is valid on a lot of points. But you are right most civilians do not think this way. Wanted to show something unique other than the ordinary. Ed

Mr Bruiser
Thanks for the kind words but I am afraid you have me at a disadvantage, I do not know who you are. Care to elighten me? I am assuming you are part of the Yoseikan group.
Sharon

I really think that we need to clarify the situation in which we are (nominaly) in during these "attack" scenarios and also the nature of the attacker.
For example, nobody is switched on 100% of the time. If I wanted to cut anyone on this forum I could. Why? I'm so great with knives?
Not particularly though I know enough. Everyone here is a useless amateur? Not so. So what is the answer. Simply that you won't see me coming, I won't anounce my presence as an attacker and you certainly won't see a knife. I'll cut you from behind if possible or possibly on the back of asking you the time or directions to the train station. The really switched on amongst you might keep a decent distance from the latter set ups but from behind I own you and you are dead. Great!!! Not much point training for that is there.
So this leaves us with the attacker who identifies himself as one, for example by standing in front of us looking menacing, calling us all sorts of names and asking done to politely for some spending money or by simply informing us that he's going to kick our heads in. He either has a knife or doesn't. If he does, he will either show it or not. In any of the cases, we have a greater chance of surviving than in my case, when I cut you up from behind. The question then is surely one of percentages. We are presumeably prepared for an attack of some kind. After all the opponent has given us cause to. To my mind, a very small percentage of people are going to attack as Ed suggests. If they are that savy why on earth anounce an attack of any kind!? Just do what I would and take you unawares. Obviously this is all supposition but I cannot help but feel that a knife attack of that quality is only likely to come from a very small number of people of whom we are unlikely to match unarmed. These kind of people should in all common sense do the job unanounced so would I feel only resort to an attack of the kind illustrated if they were caught out or discovered in their preparation or set up. Give most people off of the street a knife and tell them to attack and 99.9% of the time you get the cack handed repeated back and forth slashed whilst advancing. I'm not suggesting that we should all train for that alone and ignore the pro knife man, but lets be realistic please. Most people here are going to get done by someone of that caliber, awareness or not. Given the choice, if faced by someone holding the blade in their rear handed in an inverted palmed grip and i'm unarmed!!!! Screw that i'm off as fast as humanly possible. A rank muppet with a bad attitude will cut 90% of the people on this forum with unpracticed swings. Face a person who has put the effort into learning how to manipulate the grip on his weapon. No thanks. In short all this talk of countering such an attack launched by such a person is a steaming pile of BS. If you are lucky enough to get a chance to see the attack coming then run like hell. For God's sake don't wait for it and trust in your limited experience

Regds
Mr V

Ed,
Not trying to start another argument, honest.

I know you do not advocate training with live blades. Fair enough. But you are now saying you disagree with Mark's tee shirt method. I appreciate what you say about this only showing attacks to the torso, but some attacks ARE to the torso. Do you not agree that the t shirt menthod is good for these types of attack? Training against attacks to the head/face/neck/throat obviously need to be trained for as well.

I do agree wtih Mr V, that we would not see the skilled knifeman coming and that if we see a knife the best plan is to run. I am only trying to train against attacks that I do see coming but can not run to escape from. I realise I will probably be cut and I take that into account in my traing by trying to minimise injury. Do you not see it that way?
Sharon

Shraon. It is like point training in tae kwon do. You fight how you train. Personaly I do not attack to the torso because it is ineffective for what I do and most people I deal with wear vests.
Mr V. I'll tell you about a mugging I witnessed. A man grabbed another unaware citizen by the arm much as I have done. The attacker had a screw driver. Basically it turned to be a jilted lover senerio. After a heated yelling match the attacker stabbed the victim 6 times. Not once did the attacker let go of the victim during the whole course of events. The victim did try to defend him self against both the grab and the stab. But he was clueless. Ok why didn't I stop it? Well It was in a foriegn country and I could not get involved. Leave it at that.
My point being are you going to face an attack as I posted. I dont know for sure, but it is not why I posted it in the first place. If all you do is practice against the wild slashing attacks, then you will be ill equip to handle a situation as I decribed above. So maybe train in both senerios including grappling. How do you get a grappler off you quick. Stab him! Not to many people I know practice that either. Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 09-21-2003).]

Ed,
I have put my responses in capitals, not to shout or be rude, but just to differentiate between what you said and what I am saying.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Shraon. It is like point training in tae kwon do. You fight how you train. Personaly I do not attack to the torso because it is ineffective for what I do and most people I deal with wear vests.

I THINK THIS IS WHY WE ARE DISAGREEING, I AGREE THAT YOU FIGHT HOW YOU TRAIN. FOR ME AN ATTACK TO THE TORSO IS AS LIKELY AS IT IS ABOVE THE TORSO BECAUSE I DO NOT WEAR A VEST AND NOR DO MOST ON THE STREET. THEREFORE, WE TRAIN FOR ATTACKS TO THE BODY AND THE HEAD.


Mr V. I'll tell you about a mugging I witnessed. A man grabbed another unaware citizen by the arm much as I have done. The attacker had a screw driver. Basically it turned to be a jilted lover senerio. After a heated yelling match the attacker stabbed the victim 6 times. Not once did the attacker let go of the victim during the whole course of events. The victim did try to defend him self against both the grab and the stab. But he was clueless. Ok why didn't I stop it? Well It was in a foriegn country and I could not get involved. Leave it at that.

WE ALSO TRAIN AGAINST BEING GRABBED BY A KNIFEMAN, ALTHOUGH I ADMIT I GET "STABBED" WITH ALARMING FREQUENCY (STILL WORKING ON IT)


My point being are you going to face an attack as I posted. I dont know for sure, but it is not why I posted it in the first place. If all you do is practice against the wild slashing attacks, then you will be ill equip to handle a situation as I decribed above. So maybe train in both senerios including grappling. How do you get a grappler off you quick. Stab him! Not to many people I know practice that either. Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Glasheen (edited 09-21-2003).][/QUOTE]

IN THE UK, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CARRY KNIVES SO THIS IS AN UNREALISTIC DEFENCE FOR US. OUR LAWS TO ALLOW US "WEAPONS OF OPPORTUNITY", IE IF I AM IN MY HOME AND A LUNATIC BREAKS IN I CAN PICK UP SOMETHING AND USE IT IN DEFENCE AS LONG AS I CAN CONVINCE A JURY THAT A REASONABLE PERSON WOULD HAVE BEEN IN FEAR FOR THEIR LIFE.

BEFORE ANYBODY QUOTES "RATHER BE TRIED BY TWELVE THAN CARRIED BY SIX, I AGREE ABSOLUTELY, BUT CARRYING A KNIFE ON THE STREET IS DEFINITELY OUT. I COULD BE PROSECUTED FOR HAVING IT AND NOT EVEN USING IT.

I HOPE THIS BETTER CLARIFIES MY POINT OF VIEW.
Sharon

I realize what your laws are. Still when was the last time a criminal obeyed them. I will be coming to England in the spring. I will be interested in finding how tame society is there.
In any case, my point about training stands. My monthly demo put aside, as I said in my other posts, I do not like the way you train. Nothing personal. I just think it is ineffective. Ed

Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? Ed, whereabouts in England?

Charlie

...curiosity may be getting the better of me here...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fighting Dwarf:
Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? Ed, whereabouts in England?

Charlie

...curiosity may be getting the better of me here...[/QUOTE]

You were always a trouble maker as a little girl, weren't you?

I'll be visiting your queen. Ed

god save the queen-by the sex pistols

great song, realy has nothing to do with any posts here.No, realy it doesn't. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

god save the queen-by the sex pistols
great song.


has absolutely nothing to do with any posts here. Nope, absolutely nothing to do with any of 'em. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Ed
Are you over here for training or for pleasure? Curiosity has also got the better of me.
Sharon

Ed, Been gone for awhile, on vacation. I find it honorable of you to arrange a match that employs striking as well since I grapple very little. The Vale Tudo fight sounds good. Send me a email with the details to goutetsu@rt.nl Ill need to know the rules, location, costs etc. And if you have a camera. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

First I need to Know your age, make sure your legal and weight. Then if you want to fight it will be in Mass. That requires licencing, HIV and HEP test for full contact. Once that is done I will contact Joe Cuff to see if he will take the fight. I found out it is not an open event like the grappeling. You have to have sponsership. E-mail the first part. And I will get back to you. Ed

Agreed that we should train to defened ourselves against weapons. This is why I love Filipino stick fighting.

But I have to say that the move of the month appeared to be a little brutal, I mean, first the knife was concealed, then the attack was against someone unarmed.

That's definitely murder in my mind, lol.

-John

But didn't you say y'would "kerb" someone who pissed you off?

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

My Brain hurts!!!

I concede that I have still a lot to learn, but knives I do know!

KMAN ( not khayman that the guy I know I hope) I too have a copy of the FBI surviving edged weapons video, it is very good, I think it “cuts” through all the bull shit and shows reality.
---------------------------------------------

I know that the Brits and the Yanks live in VERY different worlds. Blades and Guns are still very abhorrent to our ancient civilization, the USA seems to have a terrible weapon culture.
So we in then UK , have very different ideas about SD, ffs, if when attacked I could pull my glock 8756857 high power , laser site, big bore, man killer and drill the bugger, then well that seems a VERY effective form of SD.

But we don’t live in that sort of society, ( thank F*ck!!!!)

I have done so very much with blades in training, yes NOT in reality, but I do know that the attacker with a blade will surprise and cut you before you know what is happening.

MOVE 21 of the combat manual is all well and good, IF YOU CAN SEE THE ATTACK COMING!!!!!!!!!!

ED , if you do come to the UK, I would like to meet up, no BS, or aggression, but perhaps I do miss the point, so I would like to be enlightened……………………..

mark

Thats sounds good. I'll buy the first round! Ed

Mark,,dont believe all the hype yopu hear about how violent the U.S.A is or our "gun culture" Once you normalize certain demographics we're about the same as G.B. or even Japan. Ya just got to stay away from certain places where bad stuff is likley to occur unless there's an overiding reason to go there.. And in the areas where gun ownership is the highest(rural areas) crime in general and murder in paticular is the lowest.

Oh man, I'm not sure where to start.
From a technical point of veiw, the attack you show seems pretty damn solid to my eyes. A couple of people have expressed the opinion that the throw and/or the following stab to the throat are a bit extraneous. Personally i would disagree, mainly for the reason you've already given which is that a cut to the neck even if it hit the artery (which it's not absolutely garanteed to do)would not be likely to INSTANTLY drop or incapacitate the Victim. If you just cut and leave it at that, he may draw a pistol and start shooting before even realizing that he's been cut. If you do hit the artery, he'll fall soon, but since you're in a position to control him and follow through with the attack, your best bet would be to do so and I think you show a very effective way of doing it.

As far as defending against it...I feel like a hypocrite even offering suggestions because in all honesty, i can look at pictures on the internet and IMAGINE half a dozen ways that could work, but i really dont know that I personally could execute any of them in the time frame neccessary to survive.

That being said' I'll try to contribute from a technical standpoint.
One of the best things mentioned was awareness. If someone is walking up to you with a hand hidden behind their back, go ahead and assume that it isnt for YOUR health.

If you see the knife coming, or even just percieve the assailent's intent to "punch" you, you may step into his left side (or the side of the arm he is using to grab/hold you) and attempt to block or parry his attack from the inside of his knife hand. (i hope that made sense) From there I think the best bet would be to either throw him using the momentum of his attempted cut, or to lock up his left arm and IMMEDIATELY take him to the ground.

Like i said, i dont have much confidence that i could personally pull this off, but i wanted to contribute to the technical aspect of the discussion.

On to a moral position.
If you personally and honestly feel within yourself that putting this type of technique on the internet is a responsible contribution to society or the martial arts ethos or culture, then youve fulfilled the only (imo) moral obligation a person has: "Do I feel that this is appropriate?" If the answer is yes then there you are. To me, this looks more like a technique that should be in a training manual (video or literary) found in a specific setting such as a dojo or military/federal training facility, than one that should be accessible over the internet to the "bad" as well as the "good".
Yes, it is certainly proffitable and absolutely neccessary for serious students of MA to have a realistic understanding of what a knife (or any other weapon) can do, but maybe this should be balanced with the understanding that this may not be the best or most socially productive technique to offer to an unregulable audience.
In this specific instance, the technique given is one of assasination. Period. This is an assasin's M.O. Furthermore, i hate to appear to be prejudice or biggoted, but the first thing i saw when i clicked on the link was "Ju-Jitsu in Afghanistan" and one man being thrown by another man that reminded me of Osama Bin Laden. I know that may be unfair but I'm sorry, that was the first thing that came to my mind. Then i click on "technique of the month" and i see "Walk up to American soldier with knife hidden behind back. Slash artery in American soldier's neck. Throw American soldier to ground and stab his throat."

It literally gave me the shivers.

I'm not trying to imply or suggest in any way that this was the intention of the web site, I'm only offering my personal reaction to it. I hope that you can take it as such.

Excellent post! The way they sould be.

I agree with you, this is a assasination type of exercise. My goal was to show, mainly the people of this forum, that the knife is really a close quarter weapon. Not the sword that most people choose when practicing their techniques.
So why show it, To make people thimk about their training and it's effectiveness. From a moral issue, if someone uses the technigue prescribed from my web site, to be honest they were going to commit the crime in the first place with out my help. The knife is a very personal weapon. It tkaes a certain mindset to use it.
I have seen many police training films including Innasato's 21' attack. I think they are poor examples of reality and disagree with the training methods. Bottom line the most effective way to deal with this attack or any other attack is to attack the attacker with enough force to hurt him right away. If the attacker was getting hit in the throat or even punched in the face right off the inital grab, I belive his whole game plan would change. When you attack someone you already have a plan in your mind what you are going to do. The only way you are going to change that is to give me something to worry about. When faced with immediate overwelmming vilolence, most people freeze, even for a split second. Thats what you have to do.
Here you see someone approach you and reach out to grab you. First are you aware of your surrondings. Again this is a more military type of attack, but you have to agree most people are ablivious to what goes on around them. How did this guy grab you in the first place?
I would immediatly strike the attacker in the face or throat. Disrupt his game plan. That is the frist step.
The picture of the " Jujutsu in Aphgan" was placed their to show even some squat "towel head" in the middle of nowwhere is practicing grappiling. Arabs are big into Jujutsu. Or similar techs. Ed

I'm curious about the likelyhood of paralysis as a result of a stab or stabbing cut to the spine.
Any thoughts on this?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:

'The picture of the " Jujutsu in Aphgan" was placed their to show even some squat "towel head" in the middle of nowwhere is practicing grappiling. Arabs are big into Jujutsu.'

Come on Ed, the use of the term 'Towel Head' is quite offensive. This really isnt the place to show your petty small-minded bigotry.

Sorry but that is what we call them. And besides if you saw what I have seen, you would probably call them something much worse! If you feel better call me a mick bastart. Shit like that does not bother me. Ed

Move of the month?

What benefit exactly does this offer anyone?

If you are switched off and allow a skilled attacker with a knife in range to get a deep slash into the carotid then yes you are gonna regret it.

Is this an attack for us to learn ? Why...?

Is it an attack to learn a defence too ...ok I'll buy a piece of that ...Only in that everyone needs to switch on a little bit more awareness, keep their fence up and dont let anyone into their personal space.
If the woprst comes to the worst then, yup its fight like a mad dog or die...

But I just wondered ..Was the assailant beamed in from star trek??

The issue I have with this is that most things are done for a reason - If its a mugging your more likely to see the knife - the mugger wants an easy victim so will try and subdue you with it.

With a crime of passion ..(I avoid one and can't remember the other) it would be more of a frenzied attack by an unskilled knifer who's grabbed the first thing they can get hold of...) Hence the practise with t-shirts and marker pens.

Ok - for combat troops this might be great - you've got a much higher chance of meeting a skilled knifeman ..again though - if your in the zone shouldn't you be a teeny weeny bit on your guard? those trousers are a bit dodgy for a start

for the rest of us mortals especially the 1000's of IT literate youngsters looking at martial arts I think this indiscriminate posting of killing strikes smacks of irresponsibility and has no place in the public domain.

I dont see any place for racist comments either

D

Ed.
Kindly don't use terminology like that. There are as you can imagine people of all backgrounds on this forum and though you may not take offence, others do. Depite a rocky start we seem to have reached an understanding as regards the contents of your posts. Please don't create new problems.

Regds
Mr V

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Sorry but that is what we call them. And besides if you saw what I have seen, you would probably call them something much worse! If you feel better call me a mick bastart. Shit like that does not bother me. Ed[/QUOTE]


"We"

Who is this "We" Ed.

I hope with your posts to date I never get to be in the "We" catagory with you.

You're insulting people that you have no right to.

JohnL

Ok Ok Ok but... I do not give respect to a culture that never had a renissance period. Sorry just my opinion, freedom of speech and all. Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Ok Ok Ok but... I do not give respect to a culture that never had a renissance period. Sorry just my opinion, freedom of speech and all. Ed[/QUOTE]

If you're referring to the Arabs, your knowledge of history is seriously flawed, my friend. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the knowledge gained by them and the Greeks was only salvaged by the efforts of Arab and Jewish scholars, who kept it alive and added to it in centers of learning throughout the Middle East. While Europe sank into the Dark Ages, knowledge and learning was kept alive and flourished in Arab lands.
You say you don't give respect to their culture? Neither do their extremists give respect to ours, that's why they feel they can blow us up, we're undeserving. That's something to think about, if you care to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Ok Ok Ok but... I do not give respect to a culture that never had a renissance period. Sorry just my opinion, freedom of speech and all. Ed[/QUOTE]

I agree with freedom of speech however, your current speech belongs with you in the gutter.

JohnL

I'm sorta with Ed here. Moral equivlacy is for wiennies. I wouldnt choose to use a derogatory nickname here but it's common for troops to have slang names for the opposition and the locals. Also I do believe in some absolutes. The behaviors of a culture are one of the ways we can form an opinion about them. There are some bad people out there and we shouldnt be afraid to call them what they are.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kman:
Also I do believe in some absolutes. The behaviors of a culture are one of the ways we can form an opinion about them. There are some bad people out there and we shouldnt be afraid to call them what they are.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. So let's call them what they are: bad people, criminals, maniacs, murderers and terrorists.
There're people just like that on both sides of the Northern Ireland troubles. Are we then justified to start calling the Irish everywhere nasty names?

Hi kman

You could do that, but as currently on a worldwide basis, the USA is the most hated nation on earth, I'm afaid it puts you at the bottom of the pile of sh*t.

Personally I believe that if we're going to discuss MA's then you need to avoid the insulting name calling of people on the basis of their nationality.

JohnL

JohnL,,My nations at the bottom of a pile of s--t but you're down on name calling? Well done old boy!

Kman

Nice try....but not much use ...I cant see JohnL being ruffled by that little jest.

JohnL is spot on - its a martial arts forum and we should stick to that. If you havent got anything relevant to say then why bother.

One of the great things about MA is you can work with a partner to learn things. Often you will have different skills and can learn from each other.

If you take your MA off the mat and apply it to life you might see that similarly there are two sides to every argument. And there are good and bad people in every nation.

Leave the name calling in the playground.

D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dazzler:
Kman
...Leave the name calling in the playground.

D
[/QUOTE]

YESSSSSS!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Iv'e called someone a name? Guess I'll need one of to point out exactly where that was. Seems to me others have been doing that and I have yet to take the bait.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kman:
Iv'e called someone a name? Guess I'll need one of to point out exactly where that was. Seems to me others have been doing that and I have yet to take the bait.[/QUOTE]

I was agreeing with the sentiment. You're right, YOU haven't stooped to name calling.

Just as an aside, have any of you looked at the AMOK! knife type fighting style? Not having much experience with knife-fighting(knives themselves are a whole other issue) i was curious as to your thoughts on it. http://www.knifefighting-fl.com/English.htm
There's the site, if you care to look, I'm going to a seminar tommorow in Derry, NH.... I unfortunately don't know the address(getting a ride from a freind) but if you are in the area, it's 20 bucks i believe... 2:00pm-5:00pm. Yeah anyway, I personally have only been attacked by someone with a knife once.... that wasn't pretty... at all, but the first act on the aggressors part was not a grab, but merely a large swinging stab holding the knife underhand. It was very tingly, and i must agree, i didn't realize i had been stabbed until the bloody knife popped out of me. I then proceeded to run, very fast(thank adrenaline for the unlimited energy) [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] anyway, that was awhile ago and i am much healed by now. Thanks for the intelligent input and please just don't bash AMOK! or any other knife fighting style/technique without telling us poor simpletons why(namely me as the poor simpleton, although anybody else can join if they want [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )
-Louis
"I'll fix their clock... like a monkey on a batch of cookies!"

Hi Ed,
I don't doubt your ability at all.But i hold your judgement in serious question.The Martial arts are to be taught with respect,honor,maturity,and integrity in mind.How can you in good conscience put out a killing technique for any kook to see and try without being there to make a proper decision on wether he/she is in the right frame of mind to learn such a technique.I hope that you don't have to answer to a husband ,wife ,parent or child as to why their loved one was killed from a lethal technique that a crimnal learned from your website.You sir,have a responsibility to the public to divuldge your knowledge wisely and from what I've seen thus far you are failing miserably.

[This message has been edited by c_maj7th (edited 10-26-2003).]

c_maj7th-I am afraid to point out to you that the kooks are already out there, doing what they are going to do.If they want to kill someone, they are going to kill someone.They are going to do this because they are kooks, not because of a tv program, movie, book, or website. Hold the kook responsible for their actions, not the rest of the world.

So let's add fuel to the fire right?Besides Tv,video games,moveis etc,etc,DO affect people.If this were not the case billions of dollars would not be spent on advertising.That really is kind of beside the point I was making.You're right there will always be kooks but lets do our part and be responsoble MA's and give out our knowledge to the proper candidates.I've had my say I'm through with this post.Thanks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by c_maj7th:
So let's add fuel to the fire right?Besides Tv,video games,moveis etc,etc,DO affect people.[/QUOTE]

Pah, video games affecting people. Look at how many people played Pacman in the '80s... Did they grow up to spend their time in darkened rooms listening to repetitive music whilst eating little white pills - actually, never mind.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

My move of the month is an example of the tantojutsu I learned.Like it or not, jujutsu is a combat art. It is not made up from three sports, karate, judo and aikido as so practice in the states. Jujutsu was designed to take out armed or unarmed assailants quickly. Weapons were and are employed as my example shows. The knife was and still is used as a mean of assasination. Not the bs sword play that is popular in todays MA crowd. It is unfortunate that you feel that showing my technique on the web is inmoral. I for one am tired of seeing the same ol judo,aikido,karate bs. There is more out there. There is real Jujutsu and then there is this made up crap. Like what you want. But if I am ever attacked, I want to take the attacker out quick and go home.Period. Ed