Strangles and Chokes

Posted by: judderman

Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 12:32 PM

So how do you defend against these?

I believe that this would be useful, not only for vunerable people being attacked (rape/murder), but also to give heavy handed "friends" or bouncers a surprise.


Any simple techniques?

Budo.
Posted by: ChangLab

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 12:57 PM

Some dont like it, but, I suggest a head butt
(backwards )in the case of a head lock from behind.
or
a series of elbow strikes to the ribs
combined with a downward kick to the shin or top of the feet.Maby a heel kick to the groin.
If the person is in front of you and has a choke hold on you with his hands
a upward strike with both hands at or around the elbows can break the hold then with your arms raised strike back down to the neck
or open handed strike to the face/nose.
if the person is off to the side of you and has a headlock on you , you can use elbows to the ribs as well as side or downward kicks to the shin/feet to get them to release.
Of course there are several methods to flip the person over your hip to disengage them
I would not reccommend trying to flip them over your head as you stand a chance of them holding on and suffering a neck injury.
thats all I can think of off the top of my head.



[This message has been edited by ChangLab (edited 07-22-2003).]
Posted by: Sweeney

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 01:21 PM

A useful technique requiring some advance preparation is shown in the 1981 film "Outland," where Sean Connery plays the person being attacked.

An even better option, also requiring being prepared in advance, exists. A curved blade, preferably one with a serrated edge that locks open and can be opened with one hand (Spyderco makes one called the Harpy), is very useful for defending against forearm chokes from behind. You simply slip it into the gap between the crook of the attacker's elbow and your neck and cut downward through the tendons, nerves and blood vessels on the inside of the attacker's arm, which ends the choke hold virtually instantly and very likely permanently. Extremely effective, and quite justifiable considering that you are potentially being choked to death.

I've been in this situation (St. Croix, 1980). At the time, I had no knife or other armament, and was also simultaneoulsy being punched by a second attacker from the front. But the rear attacker made the mistake of letting go with one hand in order to smash a brick againt my head. The brick broke in half (Irish skull), they ran, and I chased for a while but had to abort the mission when they led me into greater danger on their home turf.

I suppose I should have just picked up the two halves of the brick and aimed for the back of the head of each. Like something out of a Crocodile Dundee movie. Live and learn.
Posted by: xerxes

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 01:50 PM

First and foremost, tuck your chin down and maybe hunch your shoulders up. Are they using your clothing or is it naked? This makes a big difference(unlikely they are using clothing unless they have trained in a grappling art). The arms that are choking you are the things you need to work on first. If you are just punchng body and head and ignoring the choke you have a big problem.

Changlab, if choked from behind and you head butt backward you are just exposing neck further. Bad idea.

This can be hard to do but you might be able to peel a thumb or finger out, thereby breaking the choke(and, of course, you should then snap the digit in question).

If the adversary is using your clothing you may be able to yank the clothing out of his grasp. Get someone to try some lapel chokes while you are wearing your gi and see how this works. Then try it with regular clothing.
Posted by: xerxes

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 01:57 PM

I should have specified that you need to tuck the chin BEFORE the choke is fully set.
Posted by: Sweeney

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 03:40 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xerxes:
...you might be able to peel a thumb or finger out, thereby breaking the choke(and, of course, you should then snap the digit in question)[/QUOTE]

Or you could do a kotegaeshi maneuver on that hand if you have Aikido training...
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 04:37 PM

Head butts, knees, and (assuming it is a man) Grab em and squeeze. Sounds disgusting but a woman did it to me once and it was the most painfull thing ever. If its a simple head lock then hook the fingers in the nose or ear or try poking the eyes.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 05:42 PM

Study a grappling art that utilizes such techniques to learn the proper counters. DO NOT rely on techniques whereby you attack the groin or "headbutt" -- you won't be successful against the experienced fighter. That will only get you "curbed" here in the US (more on that later). Learn to counter with "technical" maneuvers, then you have a better chance of turning the tables.

-John
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 08:05 PM

When I apply a rear choke,I pull victim backwards-off balance.Head is tucked in close to theirs,no way to head butt.This also does not allow getting your feet under you,so you cannot get leverage. After choke is applied,you have 2 to 6 seconds before you pass out.
Best defense is not to let them get the choke.If they do,must have chin tucked before choke is applied.Turn in to elbow of arm they are choking with,they will still have head,but can't choke you.
Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 08:41 PM

The easiest way not to get choked is not to allow yourself to get choked. Once the choke is in and tight...Night,Night. Breaking fingers, Kotegeshi ect is all for not. Get use to protecting your neck. Only practice will make this instinctive.

If you get chocked from the rear while standing, some people may go for the seionage throw. This may not work fro everyone. Instead move your hips out and allow yourself to get into a standing headlock. Now you can perform your headlock escape technique. Easy.Ed
Posted by: Ender

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 08:48 PM

I actually like to set up for a back kick when I can, providing I'm not pulled backward immeidately by the choker, and can lean forward instinctively as soon as I feel a touch on my neck.

If I am pulled backwards, elbows backwards, finger breaking, or some throws.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 08:49 PM

Good one ed, I forgot that one,which is suprising since I like it.
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 09:29 PM

I was at my mates house, he practisces Hapkido, we were arseing around, so we decided to somethong constructive, he showed me how to attack someone when your handcuffed, some throws that break your neck and so on, and he got a little aggressive, putting me in a headlock (carotid choke actually) from behind as I sat down in an armchair. I reacted, reached my hand over to the other side of his scalp, and pulled him down to my side. I was impressed, he was in a position to cop a broken neck or KO. Simple but very effective, Judderman.
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/22/03 09:43 PM

This counter works if you act fast, and it counters a rear choke or bear hug type restraint, swing your arm around, over their head, as you twist your body, get them in a headlock (around the painful part of the head above the eyes, on the temples, and you can take initiative as they are tackled.

The throw from Sochin is good, (attacking the hyperglossal and throwing them onto your knee http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=204 ) and so is the elbow from Seiunchin http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=205 , but if you are grapping, the position ("positional dominance"?) of the opponent reflects as to how effective your counters will be.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/23/03 07:06 PM

Many great suggestions. If the choke is already sunk, and you are using your arms to fight it, one way to get a little airspace is to stomp the shin/instep, HARD AND FAST. This may provide a VERY short loosening of the lock, which you must be prepared to capitalize on with a technical escape.
I forgot! The classic "John Wayne", where you slam him back against something preferably hard and sharp. Crude, but effective. If worse comes to worse, get out your blade and "remove" the offending arms.

[This message has been edited by Jamoni (edited 07-23-2003).]
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/23/03 11:18 PM

I never leave home without it. Even at the sight of a blade most attackers will turn tail and run. The ones that dont are the ones to look out for. If I had a blade in this situation I would try to stab the elbow joint causing tissue and possibly structural damage.
Posted by: Stevo

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/24/03 09:49 AM

All great posts..It really depends on the choke, if its on the ground there are 100 chokes and 100 escapes!!But if its standing...there are still 100 escapes!! Lets make a few assumptions...Most of the time a choke is not fully on right from the word go.Even somone inexperienced will react to an arm around their neck maybe by tucking your chin also the person may have to to man-handle you into position, plus the chances that the person can actually perform the technique correctly. This all gives you a window to escape, once it is fully on yes, you only have 2-6 seconds. As a grappler I have wrestled on the ground for 2-3 minutes with a guy trying to get the choke around my neck good enough to actually work..sometimes he won sometimes he didnt.
On the ground...standing up...wrestling...punching ... kicking..the most important thing is a good solid base..
Usually the attacker will pull you backwards off balance and put a hand or head against the back of your head to stop head-butts. From this position you are screwed, so first get posture, get your feet back under your hips, this is not that hard with practice, also as stated above you can step back and twist to the side, now in a side head lock.
Two examples of how good posture is..1 try to rear choke somone who is taller that you when they expect it and stand there, its very hard to get up around their neck.
2. From a front on choke (when your bent forward with your head in their arm pit) step forward and "posture up" this will lift their arm and them straight up..
My favourite escape from the rear choke is simple effective, non-harmful and requires extreme finesse, it could be my favourite martial art move..
They have their right arm around your neck, you get posture..ie your feet under your hips, grab hold of their arm with both of yours and pin it to your kneck..hold it in tight, turn slightly to the left and kneel onto your right knee, continue to pull as if their elbow was to touch the floor. It takes no strength..you simply make them do a forward roll..I know I will get many criticsisms saying that this does not work, but it does for me
Thanks everyone for your great input
Stephen
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/24/03 11:17 AM

Excellent post. I dont think that flashy finesse moves are the answer here. 2-6 seconds to recall a complicated pattern of movements isnt a long time. Like Ed said the best answer is prevention. In this situation Im going for a blade or a groin strike or grab. If you could get the technique down you might be able to land a solid kick to the knee but Ive never practiced it in this context so I dont know what the results of that would be.
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/25/03 10:25 AM

I'm assuming we're talking "What can I do after the choke is on?" and not "What can I do when the choke is first attempted?" Two very different animals!

A trained opponent is always going to destroy your posture in connection with the choke. (e.g. if he chokes from behind he will also drag you backwards off your feet, turn his body to protect his groin, and place his head solidly against the back of yours, thereby protecting against head butts, and also maintaining the pressure of the choke)

Broken posture is no position to launch a striking attack from-- you just won't get any power, and you've only got a few seconds to get the job done. So the first order of business is to get some kind of stable base to operate from. Ed was the only one I saw who took that into account in his post.

For the situation he described, we do something similar but simpler, in my opinion.

For a right handed choke from behind (I'm thinking your typical bouncer, police choke procedure), we lock both hands on the choking arm, and step out and around to the rear with our right leg. Depending on how far you step, this sets up either tai-otoshi or osoto-gari. If you time it right, you are stepping in the direction the enemy is pulling you, so a big step and then a bow will plant them so hard you have to feel it to believe it. We always give it a little help with a sweep or a trap to stay on the safe side. It's like Ed's getting your hips out move, except we also turn our body. I think this might be easier than slipping your whole body out and around backwards, since you just get one leg around and turn, then throw.

If you can't step around, we also practice squatting straight down, and then shoving backwards with both feet. We push so that our back is against the inside of one knee, and this will take the person over backwards. It is a rare person who will maintain the choke through a nasty fall like that, and the quick drop tends to take the power out of the choke grip to begin with.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I hope someone finds it interesting, amusing, or maybe even useful. Let me know if you spot any obvious weaknesses in it.

PS: There's nothing like typing ten paragraphs and then seeng that Ed said it in one word in his post: seionage.

Still, adding the sweep or trap (osoto gari or tai otoshi) increases the chance for success, so I'll leave this here for the benefit of those who didn't know what seionage is or how to apply it in this situation. Besides, Ed may have been referring to people who try to drag the attacker over their shoulder for a forward seionage, in which case I would change "sometimes doesn't work" to "almost never works." Anyway, if you're still with me thanks for reading.




[This message has been edited by the504mikey (edited 07-25-2003).]
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/25/03 01:46 PM

Not coming from a grappling background, can you explain what "seionage" is please?

What about strangles? Any thoughts?

Budo.
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/25/03 05:15 PM

It's basically a shoulder throw...
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

The example in this link is not exactly the same thing, but it will give you an idea. So in seionage, you would grab the opponents arm with both hands on either side of his elbow, pull it down a bit, and then throw him over your shoulder. As Ed said above, this would be tough to do for most people, and failure to get the throw would result in your getting choked out.

The modifaction I proposed is to step out around your attacker with your right foot first (Ed refeerred to this as bringing your hips around, but in his suggestion you stay facing forward with the attacker beside you and in my suggestion you turn to your rear as you step), and then throw him with a body turn and possibly a sweep. It's hard to visualize, but you can try it with a partner and muddle through it some...

When you say defense against a strangle what kind of strangle do you mean? If you can describe a specific attack I'm sure everyone will chime in with ideas.

Hope this helps...
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/27/03 07:24 AM

Thanks for the clarification.

Ok a specific strangle.

You find yourself, back against the wall, with your attackers hands closing around your throat.

What would you do?

Budo.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/27/03 12:24 PM

Slap a hand down on the inside of his elbow and one on his wrist pushing his arm back towards him then while pushing grab his wrist and either throw him or put him in a wrist/shoulder lock. Commence to beat his face.
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/28/03 02:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Slap a hand down on the inside of his elbow and one on his wrist pushing his arm back towards him then while pushing grab his wrist and either throw him or put him in a wrist/shoulder lock. Commence to beat his face.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Chen, I think this is mostly poo. It relies on strength too much to be effective.

I do agree with the wrist or other arm lock, before commencing the beating.

Budo.
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 07/28/03 09:49 AM

I agree with you, Judder-- some of the bigger guys in my class will crush the life out of you while you hammer on the inside of their arms trying to get the elbow to bend. It just isn't going to happen.

They way we remove chokes of this type is typically to lift one of the choking arms UP from underneath without worrying about bending the elbow. You would be surprised how easy this is, even against a very strong opponent. Even if it occurs to him to try to hold his arm down, it's his arm muscles pulling down against your legs and arms pushing up-- should be no contest.

We lift the arm by striking with the palm either through the elbow joint or just behind the wrist-- if you look at your forearm, you will see a little curved indentation on the inside just behind the joint at the end of the radius. If you strike the arm on the underside even with that point the hand is coming off your neck, every time. Try it, it's neat.

So, plan a: strike one hand off at the wrist (This strike is strongest across your body, ie hit his right hand with your right hand.), step out, apply armbar to the now free arm, and introduce choker to the wall.

Plan b: bring one arm up on the inside and place the forearm across the opponent's collar bone. Trap the arm on that side at the elbow with your other hand (ie lay your palm on his elbow, just to keep him from turning away in the next step). Push off of the wall with your body, sending all the force through his collar bone. As he moves backwards, follow, move outside on the same side you trapped the arm, and sweep his legs, throwing him to the rear.

I hope these provide some food for thought...
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/02/03 09:34 AM

A favorite of mine in this situation is to bring one arm over the outside in a big circle, while turning, so that you trap his wrist under your armpit. Continue the turn and bring your arm down (elbow down, wrist up, forearm vertical). the hands pop off nicely. then a backwards elbow to the face or iriminage.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/02/03 10:25 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Thanks for the clarification.

Ok a specific strangle.

You find yourself, back against the wall, with your attackers hands closing around your throat.

What would you do?

Budo.
[/QUOTE]

One thing I find quite effective (at least, in a dojo situation) is to bring your own forearm down hard onto both of your attacker's forearms, pulling him towards you. His balance starts to go and your hand is a great position for backfist.

Those of you proficient in the grappling arts, could do many things from this position.

NB When I am working with a heavier/stronger attacker I need to use both hands, one to smash onto their forearms and the other hoding my own hand so that both arms do the work. Heavier/stronger men can do it easily with one arm.


As I say, works in the dojo, but I would be interested to hear opinions on this in a "live" situation.
Sharon
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 11:30 AM

Sharon,

In our dojo we have reached the conclusion that causing an attacker's arm to bend in the fashion you describe cannot be relied upon. We reached this conclusion by experimenting on some of our bigger, stronger people who were willing to act as punching bags.

I am 5'11" tall and weigh about 175 pounds. I found that I could not force these guys to bend their arms with a strike or pull intended to fold the elbow, especially if they choked me harder or mashed my throat when they saw the strike coming. Admittedly, these guys are big (more than six feet tall, well over 200 pounds) and they are tough (both work in law enforcement), but anyone who tries an attack like the one we are talking about is likely to have the physical advantage.

One thing I did not try is using both hands on one arm, although I have tried attacking both elbows with no success. It may well be that you are doing things in a way that will work that I haven't been able to come up with, but I would be concerned that your practice partners are not mentally placing themselves in the position of someone who hates you and wants you dead. I know a lot of "subconscious cooperation" goes on in our dojo.

Next time you get a chance, experiment with knocking one of the arms up and compare the effort required with that for folding an arm in. It is very hard to hold an arm down against someone trying to lift it from underneath, because we don't use our arms like that often.

I will try the two arms vs one arm fold the next time one of our gorillas (term of endearment) shows up. Also, I am sure you would do some kind of softening strike before folding the arm-- these guys aren't willing to let me practice that! Still, with a proper choke there isn't much time to be doing a lot of striking. Anyway, I thought I'd share those thoughts with you and the rest of the gang. Hopefully it's somewhat useful.
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 12:35 PM

For a front strangle as described, he's given you some advantages.

1. You now know where his hands are. They're not going to hit you from left field somewhere.

2. He's tied up both hands in a position that is not going to cause immediate death or loss of consciousness.

Ignore the hands and hit anything available with everything you've got. At the upper level, his eyes, throat, nose, jaw, temple, and at the lower level, nuts, knees, etc.

All have been left unprotected by his own actions.

The difficult part. Controlling the rising panic that his action may cause. Let someone strangle you full on for 3 seconds. A number of times. It isn't the worst thing in the world that can happen and if you get used to the feeling, your reactions will be more controlled.

JohnL
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 12:45 PM

504mikey,
Thanks for that, I will certainly try your method.
Just to clarify though, I was also working with a big resistant partner but we started with his arms already bent. Is this not a more natural position? I would have thought so.
Woill let you know how I get on with your method.
Thanks again
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 08-04-2003).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 12:48 PM

Had a chance to test it sooner than I thought. Knocking one arm up is even more effective if you simultaneously knock the other one down. This completely throws the other persons balance.
However, does not work as well if their arms are bent, so I will continue to practice both ways.
Let me know what you think.
Sharon
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 02:50 PM

Sharon,

Wow! Fast feedback. I guess the time difference is working to our advantage. I am still stuck in the office (I'm in the United States), but I will try to remember to experiment some tonight. (I am also testing, so it may get pushed out of my mind.) I like the one arm up and one down idea, I think it might be easier to get as a grab at the elbows and push/pull rather than a strike. It sounds like you could take him over to one side or maybe even introduce him to the wall with that.

Anyway, some more thoughts on the strangling method-- the arm is definitely slightly bent. Most of us in the class rarely straighten our arms all the way because bad things tend to happen to us if we get caught with an elbow locked out.

The arms have a very slight bend maybe five to ten degrees, the elbows are down and under, not to the side, and the wrists are cocked slightly down to engage the forearm muscles underneath. This creates a rigid frame not unlike what aikido refers to as the "unbendable arm". (I always thought the unbendable arm was more of a parlor trick than anything, but we have been using it to add leverage to certain throws, and it's handy.)

Anyway, we pin the "victim" against the wall, our arms set as described, and then use our legs to push into the throat. Usually we lead a bit with one leg to protect the groin somewhat.

The upward strike we use is a palm heel to the underside of the arm about three inches behind the wrist. I would use my right against his right, and use my legs and waist turn to add power. Note that since the elbows are turned down, the direction you hit may not be straight up, but rather straight into the weak point on the under side of his forearm. So you may be hitting as much "out" as "up", and then you step in the same direction to get away from the other arm. I think that works on a bent arm, but I am not sure it would always work. When you say the arms are bent, how much bend are we talking? I would be interested in finding an angle for which it doesn't work, because this is one of my instructor's favorite techniques and we get brownie points if we can shoot holes in them.

Thanks!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 03:12 PM

one arm up, one down works better because you cannot use the same amount of muscle as if both arms up/down.
Learned this/used when EMT, best way to retrain combative patient is tie one arm above head,other below waist so cannot effectively coordinate all muscle groups.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 03:53 PM

Mikey,
The bend is about 10 to 15 degrees.

your method may still be better for you, but I find it difficult, possibly due to size/strength. I only weigh 126 pounds at the moment.

Will be interesting to hear what you think.
I am sure this would be easier face to face!
Sharon
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 04:50 PM

Sharon,

Thanks again for the info. I don't think the police officers will be in class tonight, but there is a generator mechanic who has a strong grip I can practice against. I will let you know what we can figure out. I think with the amount of bend you are talking about the "fold technique" you are using is probably a good fit. We have a technique called "maki komi" that makes use of that fold, and when they are that close with both hands busy there are lots of good striking targets as you know.

Anyway, thanks again for getting back to me.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 08:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
.... Let someone strangle you full on for 3 seconds. A number of times. It isn't the worst thing in the world that can happen and if you get used to the feeling, your reactions will be more controlled.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]

I've seen people go OUT in that length of time (3 seconds). It doesn't take long when it's on. Relying on eye boinks against an experienced judo/BJJ, catch-wrestling IS NOT GOING TO CUT IT!!!!!

Learn the TECHNICAL counters folks before reaching for the "eye boinks". Contrary to popular belief, these can't be learned on an internet forum. It takes actual PRACTICE to get these down. Find a Brazilian jiu-jitsu or a Judo school and you'll be ahead of the game!

-John
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/04/03 09:03 PM

504 Mikey, In the post of yours after mine (dont know how to get the quotes) the technique you described is very similar to what I was saying. Pushing the arm up. The only difference was that i mentioned an inside elbow strike. I know some pretty strong guys and I dont know any that could keep an arm straight while a hammerfist hits the inside of their elbow joint. Also do you guys all smoke or something? Whats all this talk about 3 seconds being long enough to put you out?
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/05/03 12:13 AM

Chen,

I have been talking to Sharon/Wado Woman about the bending the arm with a strike idea. She gave me some things to think about, but I didn't get a chance to try them yet.

I believed you could only bend the arm with a strike under certain conditions, but that you could always remove the arm without bending it by hitting it in the right spot and direction.

Sharon made some points from her experiences that caused me to have some doubts about things we were "all sure about" in my dojo before I talked to you guys. I will have to try this stuff again in light of what you all have told me. It may be that we have as a group brainwashed ourselves into believing the lift the arm idea always works-- you know how group think can take over in a dojo, especially a small one like ours. I will keep you guys posted as I get the chance to try new things-- I was tied up testing tonight.

The three seconds thing comes from people who are thinking strangles, not chokes. By the definition I use, a choke deprives a person of air by either compressing their lungs or restricting their airway. They will remain conscious for as long as they can hold their breath, and will put up a heck of a fight while doing so.

A strangle, on the other hand, works by depriving the brain of blood flow. In a calm, relaxed person this may take ten seconds or so to cause a loss of consciousness, but in an active person it should take about three to four seconds, and in some cases a good brain choke can induce unconsciousness almost instantaneously. When a strangle is applied rapidly enough, the sudden pressure increase in the carotid sinus signals the heart to slow down, which in turn reduces the time you have to get free. They are a much more significant threat than airway chokes IMO.

My instructor has thrown me in ways which cause my body weight to strangle me, and when he does my vision is tunneling in and getting dim before I hit the ground. I have no doubt that if he did not ease up on the strangle while I was in the process of falling that I would have at most a second or two to try to worm out of a very bad situation. It will definitely make you think about protecting your neck!

These days most people use the word choke to refer to either case (like when I typed brain choke above without realizing it), and it can be confusing which one they are talking about.

These strangles usually operate on a region of the neck known as the upper carotid triangle, and unconsciousness can result from a strangle applied to either one or both sides.

You can look up info about the carotid triangle and then try pressing on your own to feel the effects... you don't have to push hard at all, and you will feel your vision starting to blur within a few seconds from application. That's when it's time to let go, or tap out when you are training with a partner. I don't think it is a good idea to carry this through to unconsciousness, because you have little to learn from it and there is a chance damage can be done or even that death will result if the choke is held too long.

There are people who do this in some dojos, but they are trained in resuscitation techniques and in my opinion they are still taking an unnecessary risk. It may be that you are already familiar with various strangles, but if you are not I would urge you to be very careful experimenting with them. Find a judo or jujitsu type who knows the subtle dangers and problems to practice with. We had someone lose consciusness hours *after* practicing in another dojo due to swelling in the carotid region of the neck. Play nice!

I hope this helps...
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/05/03 09:30 AM

Funnily enough John, I agree with most of what you said. Mind you I don't recall that I ever said eye boinks. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

3 seconds is not a given, just a suggestion. The reason for this is, I've seen people work on the technical methodologies for releasing chokes. Two things normally happen;

1. Weaker people cannot apply the releases effectively when they are applied by a stronger person. Skill differential can help, but the problem is that a strong guy grabbing you by the throat doesn't need a lot of skill to hurt you.

2. I've seen people training in releases when the choke is not being applied fully. This gives a false sense of confidence. When the choke was then applied fully, the result was invariably total panic on behalf of the defender.

My suggestion is only an alternative to the "technical" releases being discussed.

I agree you can't learn these releases on the internet. You've gotta get down and dirty.

JohnL
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/05/03 11:41 AM

Ah, thanks for the clarification Mikey. By your definition of strangles I would have to agree as I have seen some go out almost instantaneously. Any time someone goes unconcious by way of choke strangle or KO there is a risk but it does not mean it is unneccessary risk. Boxers get KO'd alot and I think that as a MA'st if you have the skills to render one unconcious then you should also have the skills to resuscitate. If you know how to punch do you not also know how to block?
Posted by: JohnL

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/05/03 02:45 PM

I think that as a MA'st if you have the skills to render one unconcious then you should also have the skills to resuscitate.

Leave it to the doctors. I've seen too many MA's say they know how to resuscitate them and didn't have a clue.

If you know how to punch do you not also know how to block?

No.
I know lots have people who can punch but haven't got a clue about blocking.

JohnL
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/05/03 07:13 PM

To be a competant martial artist you should be able to block. The point I was trying to make was that if you have the skills to damage you should also have the skills to repair before you can be complete.
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/07/03 10:34 AM

I am not sure I buy the whole "you must have the skills to repair to be complete" argument. I am pretty sure that I could do things to people that I would never be able to put back together. That's a doctor's job, assuming things can be fixed.

It's a nice sentiment, and I would love to learn some acupucture/acupressure some day, but it has little to do with being a well rounded fighter, IMHO.

So I tried "folding the arm with a strike" again last night, and no one in the dojo last night was able to keep me from doing it, but I did not find it to be as easy for me as knocking the arm up and off at the wrist. Maybe it has to do with what I have practiced the most, or perhaps the relative heights of the actors involved. Also I think it is difficult to hit a training partner as hard as you would hit someone on the street. I can feel myself holding back a bit when I strike. The hitting up concept is more of a finesse move, so you can practice it full on without worrying about banging your partner up. I find that there is a wide range of pain tolerance and willingness to play rough in our dojo, and my instructor definitely encourages us to play nice.

Anyway...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/07/03 11:57 AM

504Mikey,
Thanks for the feedack. I am going to practice both ways. Maybe your way will work better for me once I have worked at it. I still like the one arm up, one down method as well.
Another two I like are
a poking one or two fingers into the base of the throat (where the V of the collarbone is) poking in or down. Usually loosens the strangle enough or (best case scenario) drives them back.

b sticking one or two fingers into the straight part of the collarbone, digging in and then pulling hard against the bone towards yourself.

It goes without saying that you need to be prepared to follow up both of these with one or several well placed hard strikes.

Thanks again for your input
Sharon
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/08/03 10:11 AM

Sharon,

Good stuff! We do the fingers into the base of the throat (two crossed fingers in and down) thing, and I don't think anyone is going to resist that.

I had not heard about hooking the collar bone and pulling... It sounds both brutal and effective. I have this fear of having my collar bone smashed or broken, and I am sure I am not alone. I bet it hurts.

I had good results with the "one arm up, one arm down" thing you suggested the other night, too.

Happy training...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/08/03 11:08 AM

Mikey,
Love the crossing the fingers, much more effective than two side by side.
Thanks very much
Sharon
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/08/03 07:56 PM

Sharon,

You're welcome and thank you for taking the time to share some of what you know with me.

I think it is refreshing to see these forums used for (IMHO) what they were meant for, which is an exchange of ideas and knowledge with people we would otherwise never get the opportunity to learn from.

I was hesitant to post on a "what technique is best for X" thread because it seems like so often they degenerate into flame fests.

Thanks again to you and all the other martial artists who contribute here.
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/12/03 06:03 PM

Thank you for the crossing fingers idea also!!

I have found that pushing sideways against the wrists, whilst stepping back usually loosens the grip. If you are unable to step back, then turning the hips against one wrist.

I seem to recall a wrist twist, augmented by pulling the elbow in the opposite direction and turning the body.....but its been a long time.

As a quick first reaction, I was always taught to drop the chin and tense the muscles and tendons in the neck (bit like a drooping grimace). This as well as any backward motion will help to reduce the effect of the strangle.

Thanks for the other techniques, please keep them coming.

Budo.
Posted by: Tengu51

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/13/03 01:31 AM

I'm not very strong in comparison with some of the people that I train with... so the easiest thing I've found for a front choke is to simply use a very solid and very quick chisle fist strike to the front of his throat. If you bring it under his arms he can't really see you doing it. When it connects he lets you go, and IF he sees it he usually blocks by dropping at least one hand, which gives you an opening to do something else.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/15/03 03:34 PM

Physically the thumb is the weakest part of the hand. Any techniques to take advantage of this?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/15/03 04:46 PM

Try bending the thumb in on itself (you have to do it quite hard, try it on yourself)
In most people it causes a fair amount of pain.
Obviously not a finishing technique, but it will loosen an attacker's grip sufficiently to follow up if you are being strangled/choked/grabbed by a stronger assailant.
Sharon
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/16/03 04:44 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
To be a competant martial artist you should be able to block. [/QUOTE]

Disagree. Sorry for taking this out of context and I'm not being funny Chen, but I couldn't block my own punches, at least not a combo. If blocking is about reacting, then its all BS in my opinion. I can get out of the way, parry or cover, but I can't block. If you are interested in an explanation please see my post on reactive blocking in the main section. (I'd possibly be willing to compromise on outside to inside block across the body - but only just!)

With respect

Alec.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/16/03 04:55 PM

Has anyone worked out how to escape from a gull wing choke? My partner and I have bothalmost passed out trying to escape from this, nothing seems to work quickly enough to escape. Any ideas?
Sharon
Posted by: xerxes

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/16/03 08:51 PM

That is a term I haven't heard. Please describe a gull wing choke.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/16/03 09:05 PM

Thank you Sharon. Are there any benefits to folding it in instead of out?
Yoseikan Student, of course you cannot block every attack, unless there is a huge speed difference however you should be able to block two or three attacks in a row and this is the length of most peoples combos. Wing Chun sticky hands teaches you how to block almost all attacks with a single hand. I cant pretend to know much about Karate especially Yoseikan but as a hand dominated art I would think that a karateka would have exceptional or at least above average blocking skills.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 03:29 AM

Chen,
Two benefits, for me at least. Firstly I find it easier to fold it in against a stronger/bigger opponent if I am grabbed or choked than folding it out. Secondly, it makes them let go quicker as most seem to find it more painful.

Xerxes, a gull wing choke is quite difficult to describe in writing but I will try.
The attack is done from the side, let's assume your attacker is on your right.
his right arm goes under your right arm pit, forcing your right arm up. His left arm goes around the back of your neck and he grabs his own wrist, digging into the left side of your neck and pulls in towards himself.
If this is clear as mud, perhaps someone else can explain it better.
It is not as difficult to do as it is to right and is very effective. I have never met anyone who can escape from it.
Sharon
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 08:38 AM

The gull wing sounds very similar to what I know as a scarf hold.

I don't know any escapes, but I've guessed at one.

If applied as above, use your left hand to pull the attackers elbow downwards, this (hopefully) should allow you to pull your right arm down. This should remove the pressure from around the vessels in your neck. (the next bit is a bit iffy)

Dependant on the flexability in your shoulder, curl your right arm around your attackers face, chin, nose ~ anything ~ that will cause a degree of pain, or even apply your own choke, and lossen the grip further. From here either pull down with both arms to release the grip or twist left, so you are now in a guillotine choke, which I think is a little easier to escape.

You could try elbow strikes to the back of the head/neck ~ but it probably wouldn't do much.

The problem with these is they can require a degree of strength. Also if you are not quick enough or effective enough, instead of encouraging your attacker to loosen their grip, they may try harder to force the choke.

This is just my guess, nothing else.

Budo.
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 08:43 AM

Also the thumb lock.

My favourite of locks!!!

I find that to ensure the base of the thumb (where the thumb meets the wrist) is "blocked" before shoving the tip of the thumb toward the base (folded in).

I have never have this fail and the results are quite impressive. To be more effective, only apply the lock for a second, or pulse it. Too much and the area goes numb.

Budo.
Posted by: Yoseikan Student

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 04:30 PM

Chen, how do you define blocking? To me it is a concept where my opponent attacks me, I read it and then react to the attack in a way that stops it. A barrier like defence. This concept in my opinion is flawed.

Now if you say that when you use the term blocking, you mean attacking an attack, or recieving an attack, or manipulating an attack, then I can understand the merit in that. However to stop an attack with a 'block' is very difficult, in sparring I see people parry and move, but never block in the way that they do in line work. The reason in my opinion is that if they try to collect attacks with large blocking movements, they end up getting hit, alot. Why don't classical MA fight each other as they fight the air? i.e. using blocks and stances? because if they did they would get hurt.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 08-17-2003).]
Posted by: Raven

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 04:49 PM

i don't know if anybody else posted this already i was too lazy to read all the posts but a simple thing you can if the person is in front of you and if their ears are in arms reach. I don't know how to describe it but you know when you splash water on your face...do u know how you 'curve' you hands, well you do this except you don't hold your hands together. you just with you hands `cupped` you slapped their ears..i can't explaind it..basically when you slam your `cupped` hands on their ears it stuns them extremely that'll let go of you...i have no idea how it works but you should try it one someone you don't like...do it not to soft but no to hard either and you'll see what happens..if u do it right.
Posted by: Raven

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 04:59 PM

I don't know if someone already posted this little trick but if they did I'm sorry my eyes too tired to read all the responses
Anyways this is something my dad taught me, you know when you throwing water on your face..u know how you `cup` your hands in order to get the water..well when someone is choking you from the front, you `cup` your hands and then slam them on you strangler's ears...it will stun to a high degree (the harder the slam the better) Its hard to explain in a paragraph with no pictures..so if you want to know more about it just contact me at my email. If you want to try it out go to someone you really care much for and try it not to soft and not to hard..i think it can actully kill, i have no idea how it works but it works.
Posted by: Rand

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 05:23 PM

hey i just did this friday!


ok we were sparring and my friend james happened to get me in a choke hold from behind on the ground, i got my hands in far enough near his wrist on the arm that was around my neck and threw my chin down and slid out from him.


also we tried it again when we where kneeling and i lifted him up on my back and flipped him over.


atleast it seemed to me that the way you go wrong is if you panic
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 06:42 PM

gullwing/scarf choke- if they do not do it properly,meaning they are not cheek to cheek with you or have forehead in your ear, simply twist body so right arm goes back towards them, you are now facing them.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 06:56 PM

the ear slap will not kill anyone. what it does is force air into the ears, causing an increase of pressure against the ear drums.It is very painful,I have used this against someone with success.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/17/03 07:00 PM

rand, have your friend grapevine you or wrap his legs around you when he chokes you from behind on ground or kneeling-flipping him will not work, neither will turning into him. Try this and work out another escape.I suggest this because bjj teaches grapevining when you have the back.
Posted by: the504mikey

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/21/03 10:07 AM

The gull wing choke... scary stuff.

We practice two escapes from it, depending on the situation:

Case 1: The attacker does not take you to the ground, but applies the choke standing. The response here is to do a technique we describe as "catching rain". Turn the arm that is up (the one the opponent came under) palm up as if catching rain in it, then step "through" your opponent's weak direction (45 degree axis) and drop your body weight through the arm down and behind him. If you succeed in breaking his posture, he will be thrown. Good luck.

Case 2: The attacker breaks your posture or takes you down to the ground-- when we apply this choke, we usually throw the person to the ground and allow their weight combined with ours to multiply the force of the strangle. It's pretty unpleasant. Anyway, in the event the attacker breaks your posture or throws you your only option AFAIK is to attempt a sacrifice throw. I am not comfortable explaining how they work for a few reasons. First, I am not competent enough at them to feel like I could explain the important functional points. Second, they tend to be fairly complex, dynamic techniques that change a lot according to the circumstances. Third, I feel they are dangerous to practice without a qualified instructor and a partner who falls well enough to keep from getting his neck broken.

Still, it seems to me like whenever we go chasing after an escape from a "proper hold" or particularly hairy situation, sacrifice throws tend to come up. I am just starting to learn them, and it's a different world for me. I encourage everyone who is not familiar with them to study them.

I recently saw a 160 pound guy in my class grab a 260 pounder by the lapel and snatch him backwards over his (the little guy's) head, throwing him about six feet. He claims he feels no more weight than "a six pack of coke" when doing this, and that the sacrifice throw generates tremendous leverage as well as the right relationship between their centers of gravity. I know the other guy didn't tank or take a dive, because we are mostly hard headed and don't do that kind of stuff. So, sacrifice throws are neat. Find someone who understands them and get to work!

PS: For the self defense application, rather than launching someone six feet, you hold onto him, directing him face first into the ground. This does a couple of things-- there is a lot of impact, you keep access to him for control, further action, and you use him to break your own fall so that the sacrifice part doesn't become more of a sacrifice than you bargained for. The guys in my class who are good at these things can gently set themselves down while launching you like a rocket...
Posted by: MAGon

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/21/03 10:26 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
...If you get chocked from the rear while standing, some people may go for the seionage throw. This may not work fro everyone. Instead move your hips out and allow yourself to get into a standing headlock. Now you can perform your headlock escape technique. Easy.Ed[/QUOTE]

Funny, when I started reading through the thread the counter that came to mind was drop the chin/ raise shoulders to avoid the full choke, loosen the attacker up with a strike or two (Elbows, shin rake, WHATEVER was vulnerable) then, if succesful, DROPPING while grabbing the arm and performing a seoi- otoshi (A little more leverage and unbalancing than seoi- inage, because of the drop). Nobody mentioned throws and I was wondering if I was "reality challenged". Thanks for the validation!!!
Posted by: ChangLab

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/21/03 10:50 AM

wouldn't a gull wing choke be relativly easy to spin out of as it was being applied (not after)
as soon as someone started putting thier arm under mine, I'd spin out
or maby I'm missing something?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/21/03 12:33 PM

Changlab, you are not missing anything. The best case scenario is always to act before the choke is fully on.
We are discussing worse case scenario where the choke is on before we have a chance to do anything.
Mikey, thanks for the suggestion, I will try it at the first opportunity.
I know a few people who are experienced at breakfalling, I will ask them to explain the sacrifice throw so I can try the escape from that position. (I understand why it could be dangerous following instructions on this). from a forum).
Sharon
Posted by: Raven

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/23/03 07:35 PM

Okay, I did some more research on why the ear slap works...and nekogami13 is right the ear slap SHOULD NOT be able to kill anybody but i'm not going to say it 'never will kill anyone' there are freak accidents or just associated things to cause death. However it can cause a perforated eardrum...
A perforated eardrum is a hole or rupture in the eardrum, a thin membrane that separates the ear canal and the middle ear. The medical term for the eardrum is tympanic membrane. The middle ear is connected to the nose by the Eustachian tube, which equalizes pressure in the middle ear and the atmospheric air.

The causes of perforated eardrum are usualy from trauma or infection. A perforated eardrum can occur:-
* If the ear is struck squarely with an open hand as in a slap.
* With a skull fracture (after road traffic accidents)
* After a sudden explosion (e.g. bomb blast)
* If an object (Such as a bobby pin, ear bud, sticks or keys) is pushed too far into the ear canal.
* As a result of hot liquids or acid entering the ear canal
Middle ear infections may cause pain, hearing loss and spontaneous rupture (tear) of the eardrum resulting in a perforation. In this circumstance, there may be infected or bloody drainage from the ear. In medical terms, this is called otitis media with perforation.
Most eardrum perforations heal spontaneously with weeks after rupture, although some may take up to several months. During the healing process the ear must be protected from water and trauma. Those eardrum perfor-ations, which do not heal on their own, may require surgery.

Effects on Hearing from perforated ear drum
Usually, the larger the perforation, the greater the loss of hearing. The location of the hole (perforation) in the eardrum also effects the degree of hearing loss. If severe trauma (e.g skull fracture) disrupts the bones in the middle ear which transmit sound or causes injury to the inner ear structures, the loss of hearing may be quite severe.
If the perforated eardrum is due to a sudden traumatic or explosive event, the loss of hearing can be great and ringing in the ear (tinnitus) may be severe. In this case the hearing usually returns partially, and the ringing diminishes in a few days. Chronic infection as a result of the perforation can cause major hearing loss.

So a slap to an ear will 'shock' or 'stun' and might screw up the equilibrium for a few seconds of the person after the slap (Precious seconds to attack)


P.S. Since I do not want to be charged with plagirism I'm going to put the source of info. for the 'perforated eardrum' http://www.pondy-central.com/grapevine/msg00037.html#D7
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/24/03 11:08 PM

Yoseikan, blocking is everything that you described but it is also being able to stop an opponents strike with the force of your block. Sure it hurts, sometimes, but not as much as getting nailed in the face, which hurts most of the time.
Posted by: judderman

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/26/03 04:05 PM

More choke/strangles

How do you get out of a side headlock/guillotine choke?

Budo.
Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 08/27/03 11:02 PM

With a finger to the eye or hooked fingers to the nose and pull back. Surprisingly enough if you put them in a headlock with you (at least unexperienced fighters) will forget about the headlock on you and focus on removing the one on them. This is your chance for escape.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 09/10/03 10:48 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
More choke/strangles

How do you get out of a side headlock/guillotine choke?

Budo.
[/QUOTE]

guillotine-place bent arm so elbow is braced against your body, palm is on their thigh. This places body weight on your arm, their leg. Make sure you get chin tucked.They hopefully will not have strength to hold you up long, as they drop you back down take advantage of their weight shift.

side headlock-reach arm that is closest to them around body-trap arm by elbow to keep from getting hit in face. Slap groin with other hand(distraction).As you do the groin strike,reach hand trapping elbow up under their chin or nose,other hand goes behind knee. stand straight up as hand on head pushes back, hand behind knee comes forward and up. If done correctly they land on their head.


[This message has been edited by nekogami13 (edited 09-10-2003).]
Posted by: sophia

Re: Strangles and Chokes - 09/27/03 03:36 PM

I’ve found that in dealing with chokes from behind when on the ground the best defence is to face the ground and get your rear end as high as possible. The resulting position is your butt in the air, feet flat on the ground firmly planted under your hips and your head to the ground. The attacker then needs to deal with gravity (even if his heals are hooked in). Usually the attacker slides forward and relieves most of the pressure from the choke.
Give it a try and point out any weaknesses with the technique.
-bottoms up!