Fear...

...is it necessarily a bad thing?

From reading the "Letting Fly" thread, it would appear that one of the primary reasons people don't is because they are afraid, either of the consequences of their actions, or indeed that they are afraid that they don't have the skills to let fly.

The effect of fear has been discussed on this forum before, but overcoming all our fears, is that really a good thing?

Budo.

Yes.
A wise old man told me "fear will defeat you before your attacker does"

I hate walking away from a confromtation thinking I wish I had.... It's like those really clever put downs you think of five minutes too late. Perhaps if we didn't have fear, we would act as we wish instead of hesitate?

I don't think fearless is the same as reckless. Use common sense to decide where or where not to go, and make the decision before hand as to whether you are prepared to take the consequences of letting fly. Don't be worrying about it if the time comes.

I agree, I also loathe that "I wish I had" feeling. I actually prefer a solid beating over having that feeling, because at least with a beating (if i ahd given it everything I had), I know that i did everything I could, so I am only hurt physically. But with thatn "I wish i had", that hurts me mentally because its hard to look at myself as a Martial Artist, it forces me to question who I believe myself to be.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by suzie:

I don't think fearless is the same as reckless. Use common sense to decide where or where not to go, and make the decision before hand as to whether you are prepared to take the consequences of letting fly.
[/QUOTE]

Suzie, I agree with this wholly.

But surely a degree of fear, at least for the consequnces is a good thing, regardless of whether you take responsibility for them or not?

Or should we attune to the "judged by 12 rather than carried by 6" notion, which I agree with to a point.

I see it as a two way thing. We are taught to give all we have when defending ourselves and ,in many cases, rightly so, but many say that they are afraid of the consequences of doing so.

So again, is fear really a bad thing?

For me, I try not to dwell on the "I wish I had...", I chalk it up to experience and remember to use it in the future.

Budo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
...is it necessarily a bad thing?

From reading the "Letting Fly" thread, it would appear that one of the primary reasons people don't is because they are afraid, either of the consequences of their actions, or indeed that they are afraid that they don't have the skills to let fly.

The effect of fear has been discussed on this forum before, but overcoming all our fears, is that really a good thing?

Budo.[/QUOTE]
I've wrestled with it, tried to repress it and, finally, after yrs. of training, "mu- shin- ed" it out of my conciousness. Recently, though, I've been working on making friends with it. When I feel it, I start by framing the thought: "Hello, fear, my old friend! Come to help, have you?" Seems to work best, but haven't had occasion to test it. We'll see.

Surely it's natural for most people to feel a certain amount of fear when facing danger. I think the important thing is not to show it.
I know doorman and policeman who admit to having been afraid at times. Dealing with the situation despite the fear is braver, in my opinion, than not being afraid at all.
Sharon

Overcoming fears = good. Losing respect for one's opponents = bad. How to make sure you overcome fear without losing respect = spar a lot and allow ALL ranges during the sessions.

Do this 1000 times. You'll not be afraid anymore.

-John

Fear is your friend. It lets you know you are about to do something silly, stupid, and dangerous.It brings out the nice and lovely adrenaline, pumps up heart rate, gets you up on edge.Makes you sharp, as long as you control it.
Fear is not the real enemy-your reaction to it is.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Overcoming fears = good. Losing respect for one's opponents = bad. How to make sure you overcome fear without losing respect = spar a lot and allow ALL ranges during the sessions.

Do this 1000 times. You'll not be afraid anymore.

-John[/QUOTE]

Do you think this is true for everyone or just certain types of people?

I agree with what you say about sparring at all ranges and I know you advocate sparring with all different shapes and sizes which I also agree with. However, I know you will also agree that the safe dojo environment is very different to a real attack. I never feel fear in the dojo because I know if I am knocked out or badly hurt my opponent will stop rather that kill me as a real attacker would.

I would still be very frightened if the attack was for real. I know from experience that I would not show that fear and I would fight back for all I was worth but I WOULD be frightened.

I don't think this is a bad thing. I would be fooling myself if I went around thinking I could easily take on anyone just because I train hard.
Sharon

Come on guys!
Am I really the only wimp here who WOULD be afraid if I was attacked? (and I mean by someone scary not an idiot who anyone could defeat)
Or am I the only one who will admit it? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wadowoman:
Come on guys!
Am I really the only wimp here who WOULD be afraid if I was attacked? (and I mean by someone scary not an idiot who anyone could defeat)
Or am I the only one who will admit it? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Sharon[/QUOTE]
Heck no, dear lady! I'll own up to having been afraid and knowing full well that I'll be afraid if it ever happens again.
But, like you, I don't think it's a bad thing. In fact, it's a blessing if you don't allow it to consume you. That's where training and conditioned reflexes come in.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nekogami13:
Fear is your friend. It lets you know you are about to do something silly, stupid, and dangerous.It brings out the nice and lovely adrenaline, pumps up heart rate, gets you up on edge.Makes you sharp, as long as you control it.
Fear is not the real enemy-your reaction to it is.[/QUOTE]

Good post!

Budo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Good post!

Budo.[/QUOTE]

Ditto.

Our Brit friends talk so often and so well about Geoff Thompson that I was made curious enough to go looking for him. I found his web page and there's a lot of worthwhile stuff there.
Anyhoo, as refers to this thread, I found an article in said web page: "Utilizing Fear", by Arjun Dhillon. Good read, makes a lot of the same points mentioned in this and other threads inre fear.

Ok, we all agree that the simpler of tecquniques work best right?(in a real fight)
well, why not a simple mindset?
meaning just dont think about it, do what you gotta do, and get on with it.
worring about consequenses,legalities, etc.
will create hesitation and that's something
none of us want.


[This message has been edited by ChangLab (edited 08-21-2003).]

Agreed on the idea of a simple technique and a simple mindset.

Suzie said "fearless does not mean reckless"

I would deem it reckless to not be concerned about the consequnces of my actions. It is easy to say things like "do what it takes" or "judged by twelve, not carried by six", until of course you are in that situation. Its a soul destroying thing to admit responsibility for the one thing you believe was intended for you.

So many advocate going in all guns blazing. If the situation calls for this, then fine, blaze away. But as others have said on other threads, its funny how actions we define as "self-defence", others would define as an attack.

I'm not saying that you should be cautious every time you are attacked for fear of prosecution. Do what is reasonably necassary, thats it. If we are as highly trained as some of us make out, then this should be fairly simple.

Even Geoff Thompson, who many would regard a thug, advocates being aware of your surroundings. Its one thing to chin someone and leave them on the pavement. Its another to chin them into the path of oncoming traffik.

Budo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Agreed on the idea of a simple technique and a simple mindset.

Suzie said "fearless does not mean reckless"

I would deem it reckless to not be concerned about the consequnces of my actions. It is easy to say things like "do what it takes" or "judged by twelve, not carried by six", until of course you are in that situation. Its a soul destroying thing to admit responsibility for the one thing you believe was intended for you.

So many advocate going in all guns blazing. If the situation calls for this, then fine, blaze away. But as others have said on other threads, its funny how actions we define as "self-defence", others would define as an attack.

I'm not saying that you should be cautious every time you are attacked for fear of prosecution. Do what is reasonably necassary, thats it. If we are as highly trained as some of us make out, then this should be fairly simple.

Even Geoff Thompson, who many would regard a thug, advocates being aware of your surroundings. Its one thing to chin someone and leave them on the pavement. Its another to chin them into the path of oncoming traffik.

Budo.[/QUOTE]

Darn, I KNEW it couldn't be such a hard concept to grasp!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Good post, judderman!

Fear is a natural emotion and creates specific responses in our bodies that ultimately can be used to save our lives. This is generally refered to as the "fight or flight response" and some systems call it the "adrenal response". In short, fear triggers this safety mechanism which means that fear is a vitally important part of our physiology. If there was no fear there would be no "fight or flight" response. This response physically prepares the body to deal with life-or-death altercations by increasing heart rate, contracting mucles (giving more strength), focusing vision on the threat, etc. The fact is that these are all things that are needed during times of physical threat. So, in short- fear is a vital part of lives and something we actually need to survive. The elimination of fear is close to impossible and actually counter-productive to our survival. The key is learning to control the fear so that the physical response can be used appropriately to fit the situation. You need to think in terms of fear "management" as opposed to fear "elimination".

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChangLab:
Ok, we all agree that the simpler of tecquniques work best right?(in a real fight)
well, why not a simple mindset?
meaning just dont think about it, do what you gotta do, and get on with it.
worring about consequenses,legalities, etc.
will create hesitation and that's something
none of us want.


[This message has been edited by ChangLab (edited 08-21-2003).][/QUOTE]


There are two situations you might find yourself in- 1)Match Fight- this is a situation you agree to put yourself in. Someone challenges you to a real fight and you agree, this is a match fight. 2)Physical Assault- this where you are attacked and forced into the situation. You did not agree to it and you were left with no choice but to protect yourself.

In a match fight, which you should never do in the first place, you need to worry about the possible outcome as you can't use the "my life was in danger" plee. However, in a physical assualt when your life may be on the line you don't want hesitate to think about the possible consequences (such as being taken to court) as this could ultimately cost you your life. At the same time, you don't want to go into overkill either. As an example, if you are attacked by a drunk that you can easily deal with, you wouldn't want to use lethal tactics.

Basically, the situation decides the options available to you but if it's a life or-death sitaution there is no time to worry about the outcome. The only thing that matters at the point in time is your survival.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Darn, I KNEW it couldn't be such a hard concept to grasp!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Good post, judderman!

[/QUOTE]

Cheers MAgon.

Do you think I hammered on about it a bit?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

SZorn, I like your comments and attitude about self defence, especially the idea of ensuring to build on what a nutural response would be. This would cetainly cut out a lot of long winded blocks or evasions.

Budo.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Cheers MAgon.

Do you think I hammered on about it a bit?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]...

Budo.[/QUOTE]

No, friend, it's just that too many others HAVE hammered too much on the "In a fight, you can't possibly think and survive..." thing. I've had occasion to do so, and it's true that there's no time to think linearly (Think in words) and mostly you can't think AT ALL, just act/ react. But sporadically there's time to think INTUITIVELY (In concepts). It behooves the smart fighter, who want's to survive both the fight and it's aftermath, to use those tiny flashes of time to evaluate their technique, both in effectiveness as well as needed intensity of force.
BTW, I enjoy your posts.

Cheers to you as well.

Good. While linear thought is lost in times of hightened emotion, especially stress, not all thought is lost. While it also good to utilize these "flashes" you should be wary of spending too much time analyzing as this could be the useful seconds needed to protect yourself.

Good point Chen. I have found that I tend to act on these "flashes" almost immeadiatly. I guess it is the emotional "energy" that spurs you on.

This is the flip side of the fear issue, as SZorn alluded to, we need it to drive us into action, but we need to manage it to stop us loosing the plot.

Budo.

I think that some small amount of fear is a good thing....I also think that having respect for your opponent/attacker is important. (not underestimating them)


[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

Excellent DeadMan; I feel you will be a great addition to the forum. There is always going to be some degree of fear. Underestimating your opponent is never a good thing but now I add this: What about Overestimating your opponent? This could add undue fear and possibly cost you the fight due to freezing up or hesitating due to second guessing yourself.

Wow, Chen,
I had never considered the consequences of OVERESTIMATING an opponent.

I have been advised by so many people to never underestimate anyone that it never occurred to me that overestimating them could also be counterproductive.
Sharon

A lot of people dont think about this, Sharon. I simply cant give credit when credit isnt due. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]LOL!

It is a very dangerous mistake - you miss opportunities to attack and give up all too easily.

Respect their weapons, but fight them to the first blow every time.

Fight them to the first blow and every blow after that. Make them think twice about striking again.

hi im new, mind if join in

ive been in a few streetfights and there's always fear in my mind,fear of getting hurt and etc. usually for the first few seconds until i get punched or get my fear under controll, which usually happens when i get punched.

When you have to fight, clear your mind and dont think about winning or loosing, getting hurt or not or etc. if you dont you'll start worrying and you freeze.

and when you start fighting the one thing in your mind should be ending the fight one way or another. one way or another means either runnning away, surrendiing, or beat the crap out of your opponent

i agree with chen zen, return every strike with a strike or even more stikes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by armand:


ive been in a few streetfights and there's always fear in my mind,fear of getting hurt and etc. usually for the first few seconds until i get punched or get my fear under controll, which usually happens when i get punched.

When you have to fight, clear your mind and dont think about winning or loosing, getting hurt or not or etc. if you dont you'll start worrying and you freeze.

and when you start fighting the one thing in your mind should be ending the fight one way or another. [/QUOTE]

What I find is that the fear (Adrenaline dump, jitters, nerves, whatever!) lasts only so long as there's no outlet. Once action begins, it recedes WAAAAAAAAAAAYYY into the background and the "fighter's mind" takes over.

As I've mentioned earlier, it's the "Diving Board" principle -- you're nervous before you jump but not during.

During the fight, you're on auto pilot and just reacting. It's what Bruce Lee referred to as "returing to the original freedom" (if you've trained correctly that is....and you ALL know what I mean by that).

-John

Recent studies have shown that the key to controlling fear to your own advantage involve controlling heartrate.

Under controlled stress conditions wearing heart monitors, trained police officers have gone from 60 BPM to over 140 BPM almost instantly.

The results of elevated heart rate due to stress (fear) are documented by Siddle Grossman in 1997.

Above 115 you start to lose fine motor skills. This may account for why police officers hit their targets about 17% of the time even at close range. Aiming and firing are fairly fine movements.

At above 145 BPM complex motor skills deteriorate and you are in a world of hurt.

Above 175 cognitive processing deteriorates - you stop thinking. Irrational fight flight and freezing takes over. You may lose near vision and experience auditory exclusion. Gunfire may sound quiet. You may also void your bladder and bowels.

For self defense 115-145 BPM gives the advantage of adrenaline with complex motor control - and if you train realistically enough you can shoot at unconscious competance here.

The key to controlling heart rate is controlling the breathing. Slow it down and keep it conscious. And keep thinking.

Fear is neither good nor bad it is a tool. it is theer to keep you alive, but can also make you make bad choices. The key is not to eliminate it, but to manage it.

If you are absolutely fearless going into a real physical confrontation then you have either experienced a lot of combat previously, or you are the 1% of the population with sociopathic tendencies.

The most experienced martial artists i have ever talked to in my life who have fought life and death on battle fields in WWII, and on ghetto streets have all admitted to me to being seriously scared every time.

25% of WWII vets questioned admit to evacuating their bowels in combat. Does that mean the other 75% are lieing?

When somebody tells me they aren't afraid of a real life or death fight most of the time this is clearly false bravado. The only exceptions I have ever met have been through the prison system on violent felonies - and I woudl categorize as socipathic personalities.

Fear in a way is related to respect. I dont respect many of my opponents on the street. How can I fear what I dont respect? I respect my peers in the dojo. Im not fearful but nerous everytime we meet before a match. Im no sociapath but Im not fearful either. Most of the symptoms associated with fear are also linked to adrenal dump which I get alot. I can trigger this dump simply by going over a previous fight in my head. The idea is to recognize the difference betwen this dump and actual fear. Often people start on the dump and it plays a mind game with them, making them afraid when they really were not.

Hmm, I never thought of this way of visualizing to gain a false adrenal dump.

Could you explaint his method in more detail, Chen?

I would say that fear and the adrenal dump are the same thing. Or more precisely, fear is the perception of the symtoms of a sympathetic arousal.

We all know the physical symptoms -racing heart, sweaty palms etc.

BY "not having respect" for those you encounter on the street I assume you mean that you don't perceive them as a threat.

I'm not sure I think that's a such a great idea. Appearances are not awlays what they seem, and people who have been in real beefs know that prejudging people can get you killed.

No you shoudl not walk around the street always afraid of everyone - that's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about actual physical confrontation. And I will bet you 6 moths salary that if you wore a heart monitor your heart rate would go up.

You can condition yourself against stress and fear. The key is to not become complacent. There is a fine edge.

Now, there is psychologically induced fear - in fact all fear responses not stemming from a flinch or from injury are psychologically induced. Re-imagining a confrontation is one way to bring those emotions back. Your body doesn't completely differentiate between your fantasization and "reality". This is similar to having a sexual fantasy and getting aroused.

Not bad Rinpoche. The sexual fantasy analogy was good. I dont prejudge an opponent but I look for obvious signs of bad training or lack of training period. Ive been in plenty of street encounters, and the reason that I dont respect these individuals is that not a single one has ever had a legitimate reason to fight me. I dont start fights and i dont do disrespectful things to people. Sometimes a simple glance at someone is considered a challenge of their manhood or sometimes they want your wallet, whatever. The point is how can i respect a person who has no respect for me or their fellow man? I simply cannot. As for heart rate increase, sure it happens, but this isn't a direct link to fear,to use your analogy, your heart rate increases during sex as well. For me fighting is almost as good as the latter. The art is the application, the thrill lies not in kata or in the walls of the dojo in even the fiercest sparring match, the thrill lies where no rules are set and everything is on the line, almost like the high a gambling junky gets when he bets on the horse.
Ender, think about the feircest battle you have ever been in, real fights not backyard spar sessions, and replay every detail in your head, imagine this encounter as detailed as possible, the scent in the air, the people around, the sounds, the location and the opponent until you can almost feel the blows. You can even imagine how the fight may have went if you had done this or that differently, this brings about the same or nearly the same emotions as the actual encounter did and will often trigger the adrenal dump.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Ender, think about the feircest battle you have ever been in, real fights not backyard spar sessions, and replay every detail in your head, imagine this encounter as detailed as possible, the scent in the air, the people around, the sounds, the location and the opponent until you can almost feel the blows. You can even imagine how the fight may have went if you had done this or that differently, this brings about the same or nearly the same emotions as the actual encounter did and will often trigger the adrenal dump.[/QUOTE]

I used to do something similar when trying to mentally "cement" techniques. I'd imagine the attack, the colors, smells, details of the locale, the opponent's features, etc. Sure enough, a mild or moderate adrenaline dump resulted.
I quit doing it, though, because I started noticing that my animus became much more aggressive.
Now that you've made me think about it, though, I think I'll go back to doing it, just not daily.

I will often do this before a sparring match or a solo training session on the bag just to get the extra boost from the adrenaline.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I will often do this before a sparring match or a solo training session on the bag just to get the extra boost from the adrenaline.[/QUOTE]

Smart.

Fear is exactly what the individual makes it. Fear if allowed can absolutely consume you and cloud your decision making processes whether it be in combat or other parts of life. However when properly channeled it is a excellent motivational tool. I have seen many a battle be ended by guys who were afraid and used that fear against there opponent. A.E. they were afraid to lose and fought ever harder not to. Fear can be your friend if you allow it to work for you.

Indeed.

MIND LIKE WATER

MIND LIKE MOON

NO MIND

Fear has no advantage. It will cloud your perception, slow your movements, and confuse your mind. You must view your opponent (attacker) as a bag of bones, no emotions at all. This is done through proper meditation, Kata practice, and a great deal of confidence in your skill.

Thanks,
Peter

Ahhh the wonderful Book of 5 Rings by Miyamoto Musashi
Looks like someone's been reading that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

The concept of being in a state of the void
is ideally the best state to be in a fight, but then, there is something called human nature and a big part of it is the endocrine system.

Thus the issue is not about eliminating fear but training one's self to be able to think clearly through it and controlling one's reations to fearful situations.

Also, overcoming fear does not mean confronting every threat and enemy head on, because sometimes the best way to deal with fear is to be able to walk away from it.

BaiginLong,


EXCELLENT!!!

Thanks,
Peter