My response to the latest article of knife defence on the site - any views?

This is one of the better articles on defence against the knife that has come up on the website. This topic is a pet issue of mine so I feel obliged to comment. I appreciate and concur with the concept of avoidance and interception as opposed to a direct barrier method. However I really must take issue with the concept espoused in the pictures attached to the article. I really must question why after establishing some control of the weapon arm, the author relinquishes said control and opts for a flowery arm lock with the other arm. Some people are extremely flexible in the shoulder area (myself included) and that weapon is still potentialy a live threat in the last two pictures. This is doubly the case if the arm lock is not fully "on". Why I might ask (in reference to the third picture in the sequence) having gained a measure of control of the knife arm, does the defender, rather than grasping for the attacker's other arm simply unleash a torrent of punches and elbow strikes to the attacker's face and head? Such force would be justifiable in the circumstances and infinitely more decisive. A rapid floury of elbow strikes to the head would be devestating at that range, end the confrontation quicker and certainly my chosen course of action. I appreciate the authors background is in the locking arts, which I myself practice in conjunction with percussive arts. However where edged weapons are concerned, surely brutal practicality and consumate aggression are the order of the day rather than utilising the technical niceties. While I think about it the sequence is FURTHER unrealistic in that there is not even a stunning strike to facilitate the application of the lock. Frankly trying to implement the technique described against a man intent on stabbing you without a prior strike is verging on lunacy in my honest opinion. I'll not even get into the lack of realism involved in the implication that psychotic knife wielders really only do try to stab you once and then stand there like arthritic donkeys while you wrap them up nice and tight. Do excuse the rant and this is not intended as a personal attack on the author, but it realy worries me to see what are the theoretical musings of traditional martial artists attempting to apply there traditional art to a problem, being touted as practical solutions to edges weapon scenarios. In my opinion that sequence is potentialy very dangerous to the defender.


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 05-21-2003).]

I agree, I must say I am a bit crap at weapon defence but after seeing systema in action it has given me a bit of a different out look on the whole thing.

I still would have no chance against a knife attacker, Ok I could try but non of the training I have found yet has covered this area well enough.

What art do you train in Mr V?

I agree with Mr.V.

Further to that, I think it's a waste of time trying to demonstrate how to defend yourself from a knife through an article with pictures.

I think its possible to talk about certain concepts in an article, but the reality is that such circumstances are unique, the common ground is found only in violence and rapidity.

In some ways I think trying to demonstrate defence against a knife attack through photos with commentry, is like trying to photograph a bullet from a gun.

The medium of communication is not up to it. I'm not saying that an article can't highlight the danger - or such concepts as control of the weapon, but this step by step guide business is a nonsense.

Its too much like a 'turn based' computer game than real life.



[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 05-21-2003).]

I agree too.
I was taught some beautiful looking knife defence by my first instructor. Unfortunately, none of them would stop my eight year old stabbing me, as I discovered when I started training with partners who resisted and continued trying to stab me (with a rubber knife, thank God!)
The thing is, I am sure the instructor thought these techniques were brilliantly effective.
Sharon

Ukfightfreak

Primarily Yoseikan Budo but also Jujitsu and Kempo. I've dabbled in pretty much everything else over the years as well, except for kung fu which never grabbed me much and (come to think of it) kali/escrima which i've never had the opportunity to try out. This in itself is ironic as they are very knife orientated Arts [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V


[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 05-21-2003).]

I've got to agree with MrV. I took one look at the photos & thought, 'What the...'

Very unrealistic. I'm surprised that it was even published on this site.

Mr V. What have you found to be the most effective system for defense against weapons esp. knives?

My own...without intending to be big headed about it and strongly rooted on concepts taken from Yoseikan Budo. I don't really agree with trying to deal with edged weapons stylisticly, its a death sentence. This is the problem that I alluded to in the original post. The author is a jujitsu practitioner so out of all the possible responses to that attack he opts for an arm lock. Why? because it a familiar takedown and restraint technique from his system. The fact that its not in the least bit safe appears not to be in issue.

If I must put a lable on what I deem to be the best response to edged weapon attacks, it would be this: "Avoidance/deflection followed by rapid entry and control of the weapon arm followed by EXTREME violence until the threat is nutralised." I couldn't care less HOW that violence is perpetrated (elbows, headbuts, biting his face off) the only requirement is that he goes down and out and I retain control of the weapon. I mean for God's sake if you must do an arm retraint of some kind, at least punch him on the nose before trying it! (I wouldn't by the way). To my mind the only arm restraint that should be used in this sitaution other than to secure the weapon arm are ones that involve shattering limbs not locking them up in nice classical techniques.

REgds
Mr V

I think you are right.

I once heard a highly ranked systema exponent comment,

[QUOTE]"If you get into a knife fight, it doesn't matter who you are you will get cut"[/QUOTE]

I don't think many MA practitioners realise that.

my head instructor is curently having private lessons with Raymond Floro (Illustrisimo Kali. check it out) and bring parts of his lesson to class. Raymond believes there is 100% effective defence to the overhead attack. he uses a method of both arms clasped together ,one hand to inside elbow the other to outside and driving at the elbow of arm on the downward movement. upon contact roll to the outside and attack vital pionts ie. knees, lower back, seviacal spine
he also states that most knife attacks are generally more than a single blow . they are usualy multiple and frenzied therefore trying to capture the arm is very difficult.

Indeed, trying to capture the arm is difficult due to the often wild and frenzied nature of the attack. That is why it is necessary to pick your moment with care and to try to enter and secure the arm at the end of an attack or if you must at the begining of a weaker attack such as a backhand swing. When the arm has less momentum your chances of securing it increase. Not sure about that block, it sounds far too much like a barrier method. I see no advantage in attempting to block the attack. At best your blocking arm might be cut at worst you miss and a vital area gets cut.

Regds
Mr V

[QUOTE]Originally posted by viper aus:
Raymond believes there is 100% effective defence to the overhead attack.

The first thing to assume when you are facing someone with a knife is that nothing is 100% effective. In addition, the overhead strikes that are trained to defend against are one of the more unlikely attacks to occur.

Slashing/stabbing attacks to the face and torso are far more common.

As you say, knife attacks can come as mutiples and in a frenzied manner, therefore doing set routines to set attacks gives a false sense of effectiveness.

Chalk up the sides of a wooden knife, let one guy attack how he wants and find out what works for you.

You can discuss particular techniques forever but with knives my belief is that you should stick to principles and keep it simple.

My own personal attitude.
1. Accept you're going to get hurt/cut, move on.

2. Avoid attacks, don't block unless as a last resort.

3. Get hold of the arm holding the knife, with both hands.

4. Keep hold of the arm holding the knife with both hands.

5. Kick the crap out of the guy until he no longer moves.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
[

My own personal attitude.
1. Accept you're going to get hurt/cut, move on.

2. Avoid attacks, don't block unless as a last resort.

3. Get hold of the arm holding the knife, with both hands.

4. Keep hold of the arm holding the knife with both hands.

5. Kick the crap out of the guy until he no longer moves.

JohnL

[/QUOTE]

ABSOLUTELY!
Sharon

JohnL,
It seems I have upset you. Not my intention.

If you never consider "What ifs" then you are putting severe limitations on your thinking and eventually your abilities. I think you overreacted a bit there.

Yes, you can only deal with what you are faced with at any given moment. But, you probably won't know ahead of time what that will be.

Yes, it seems likely that the attacker will only have one knife. But, you have no guarantee of that.

You advocated grabbing the weapon arm with both hands and then kicking. Indeed, that might work. But, I see a downside.

I'm guessing you would use that tactic because you want greater control of the weapon arm. That IS a worthwhile goal. However, you leave yourself vulnerable to the other hand. He might punch you in the jaw and stun you enough to get his weapon arm free. Or, he might have a knife in the other hand.

Er JohnL

When you say grab with both hands and kick the crap out of him are you speaking metaphoricaly or do you actualy mean use your legs. If so then I completely disagree. If you are talking metaphoricaly then I have to ask how you are going to achieve this whilst both of your hands are tied up using his. Also there is the unfortunate problem of him smacking you in the teeth whilst both your hands are otherwise engaged.

Regds
Mr V

In fairness the original post was made in reference to an article in which there is an attacker with one knife.

So in that respect I think the 'what if' he had two knifes etc. etc. is outside the boundaries of what John was refering to. In that sense it could be considered a critism of his method is unjustified.

However I don't think anyone would suggest that the distinction between an attacker with one knife and an attacker with two is a trivial one, in terms of both the threat itself and the method of dealing with said threat.

Personally I would accept that controling the main and obvious threat ie. the knife is of such priority that the use of both hands is proportionate to the aim. The threat the blade poses does in my opinion justify that approach. This method leaves you with options including stamping, headbuts, trips, biting, knee strikes.

Perhaps it would be possible to use your hands to damage the attacker as you move in to control the blade. It all depends on circumstance.

I would agree that using both hands does leave you somewhat open to an attack from the opponents weaponless hand, but then it boils down to a personal choice between undoubtedly greater control of the weapon and the risk/price of that control.

John made his feelings clear, and I think his approach is a sensible and appropriate one. However the other choice of controling with one hand and 'administering' with the other is also valid and does allow you to better defend yourself from your opponents free hand.

As i said i think it would become a matter of personal choice based on the exact nature of the situation, and thus something difficult to debate without resorting to the: Ah! BUT, what if.......

Alec

[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 05-22-2003).]

xerxes:

No you didn't upset me, I'm normally that rude.

What I'm trying to do is separate self defence from a martial art. As a martial artist I look at a lot of styles, incorporate what I like and build a complete MA although with my own traditional base and bias.

When I was originally taught self defence as part of the karate program, we spent approx 90% of the time practicing techniques that happen 10% of the time.
With experience I now practice self defence using 90% of the practice time available against attacks that are used 90% of the time. If someone sudddenly draws a second knife, think on your feet.

The training method I suggested helps with this.

MrV

Interesting point.
The method I suggested that works for me is in fact kicking.
When a group of us tried the exercise I described a number of things happened.

1. We all ended up with chalk on us. (ie. we had been cut)

2. Any attempts at controlling the hand/arm with the knife in it by using one hand only were unsuccessful. The opponent just pulled away fast and slashed at me again. No way could I hold it.

3. If I tie up both hands controlling the weapon, am I at risk of being hit? Yes. But it wasn't as bad as getting stabbed.

4. I found that if I got involed in a clinch while trying to control the knife hand with 2 hands I was at such a disadvantage that I got strangled or just generally hurt. If I got in close while controlling with just one hand, I couldn't hold on and was in a terrible position.

The one that worked for me, was getting hold with both hands, trying to get on the outside of that arm to avoid getting where he could throw a decent punch or clinch with his unoccupied hand, and literally kicking his legs untill he collapsed and continuing kicking whatever became available when he was on the floor.

I don't recommend this for everyone, it just seems to work for me.

Let me know if you try the exercise I suggested. I'd be interested to know what happens.

JohnL

It depends on how strong you are/they are.
Have just tried this out with my partner who is much taller and heavier than me.
He can hold me with one hand and block hard enough to stop me, simultaneously punching my face, assuming I am stunned, he can then lock me up quite easily.

However, when we reverse roles, I can block and partially stop him but still get cut as his arm can swing through my block. If I use two hands on the outside of him, John's method works. If he is doing a roundhouse slash, rather than a straight thrust, I have to go inside and then I get hit.

There is a good chance I could then be knoked out or stunned and then cut.

No knife defence is foolproof (as I think most will agree) but John's method works for me more often than using one hand.

Sharon

I can see the merit in moving outside the knife and having "complete" control over it with a two handed grip. It just seems to me to be a case of adopting a position of neutrality rather than seeking to dominate. Ok so he can't cut with his knife and you can hob him to death. He can hob you back and has an arm spare to punch you with whilst trying to free his weapon hand to cut you to bits. Honours even? Personaly i'd rather win and remove his head (and the threat) quickly rather than engage in a battering contest. There is also the fact that (and this is a favourite trick of mine)he may as you grab his arm with your two hands, meet your impact and switch the weapon to the other hand. Sure he might drop it - all the btter for you. OR he could pull it off and cut your throat whilst you are defenceless with no guard. Food for thought i feel....

Regds
Mr V

[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 05-22-2003).]

Please keep this up.

This is the most candid discussion I've seen yet.

I can see the advantages and disadvantages of John's and Mr.V's arguements, which appear to be based on size/strength.

I would be very interested to see article from both ideas, as the two that have been posted seem to be lacking.

Budo.

Well ive put it out there for further debate, justs needs someone else to take up the baton. I can't debate with myself...well actualy that could be a way to get an intelligent conversation going [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrVigerous:
I can't debate with myself...well actualy that could be a way to get an intelligent conversation going [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V[/QUOTE]

Ah, but its all relative Mr.V. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

On a serious note, this medium does not do what you and JL justice IMO. I think an illustrated guide would perhaps open the debate further, after all, from my own point, know next to jack about effective knife defence.

Budo.

Most knife techniques being taught are complete bullshit! They are practiced like you are on the set of the movie West Side Story. 1. Do not get stabed. Penetration of vital organs is what kills,not that box cutter slash. Be afraid of the assailant with the screw driver before the guy with the spyderco. 2. Joint locking techniques are bullshit. You will not be able to pull these off. Under high stress your fine motor skills go right out the door. While you are grabing the knife hand and trying to get that all important wristlock, your assailant is punching you in the face. Don't even thimk you are going to pull off some Segal BS. You are probably going to be attacked between two parked cars, in an elevator or stairwell. That is if you even see it coming. You will not have the room to spin around and all that other fancy BS. 2. Take out your attacker as quickly as possible. He cannot stab you if he is unconsious on the floor.Learn where to strike someone where you will take them out quickly. 3. Have the mindset that you will survive at all cost. You are going to hurt your assailant bad. You are going to win. There is no other option. Go thru your assailant. Press the offense. Keep him on the defense. This means you are going to have to be close and stay close. 4. Don't stop attacking your assailant until he is not moving. period. Ed. www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Sorry but some of what you have just said is just plain incorrect.

QUOTE
"1. Do not get stabed. Penetration of vital organs is what kills,not that box cutter slash. Be afraid of the assailant with the screw driver before the guy with the spyderco."

Getting slahed with a sharp blade is just as dangerous as a penetrating injury. Granted getting stabbed in the heart is fatal but a slash through the femoral artery or the jugula or carotid is equaly so. On a less specific level, slashes can lead to a much greater volume of blood loss and thereby quicker clinical shock than stab wounds. Im certainly not suggesting that anyone should choose to get stabbed over getting slashed, but to suggest that slash injuries do not kill is dangerously incorrect. A simple "x" cutting pattern on the chest with a sharp and suitably heavy blade will open you up like a ripe fruit. The voulume of blood loss will likely cause clinical shock through loss of blood volume in short order, not to mention the effect on you in seeing the blood pour out of you. I guarentee you would hit the floor in short order and bleed out on the spot. This is simply an "X" pattern. One could quite happily add a further "=" patern on top and your guts would spill out in front of you. Don't suggest that getting cut is a minor worry compared to a penetrating injury. It's simply wrong. All sharp object inflicted injuries are potentialy fatal and it is far easier to catch someone with a slash than a stab, its a quicker movement and you need not get so close. The one issue I do agree with is the the concept of getting in contact and taking their head off.

Regds
Mr V

What is your experience based on? Mine is actual combat. Yes I am in the military. It is actualy very hard to severe the carotid artery with a slash attack. Especialy against an unwilling apponent. Most people think you pull the head back and slash. When you pull the head back, the carotid artery reseeds back into the throat. You have to push the head foward to cause the cartiod artery to bulge out. Add a persons reflex and you compound the problem. As far as other arteries, yes you can bleed to death if you cut someones femoral or radial artery.But it take a long time and you are not guaranteed a quick kill. Your assailant will still fight back and possibly kill you.
Visit your local emergency room and talk to the doctors. Ask them how long partial or full amputees live after thier accidents. Your arteries tend to collapse when cut. A natural response which slows blood lost. Most people carry these little 3.5 inch clip point type knives. They do little damage when slashing. Yeh I'll get stitches but you are not going to kill me with those type of knives. If you are carrying a 12" bowie Knife, then you are either livng in the woods or a nut bag whose going to get arrested. Most criminals use concealed weapons. Ocassional you will see a machette or bat but for the most part the weapons are small throw away type weapons. Since these weapons are small they rely on kinetic energy for there cutting power. A small blade just doesn't have the power to cut as you suggest. Again you are attacking a live human being who is moving and attacking you. Now try to cut my femoral artery. Its not as easy as you think. The x type slash is nonsense. You are not sword fighting, which most of this knife bs is derived from. If you are going to kill someone with a knife you are going to have to penetrate a vital organ. Throat,groin ect. You also have to penetrate 4" or more into the human body for your attack to be truly effective. This is because of the bodies natual cavities and protection.ie ribs. Do reasearch. Interview correction officers. Ask them how inmates kill each other. They stab and stab untill their opponent is dead. Why, because this the quickest most efficent way of killing someone. What type of weapon do they use? A shank, basically a sharpen screwdriver. A lot of people are misled by alot of bs out there. Do the research. Learn anatomy and physiology. And remember most knife attacks by criminals are ambushes. They don't advertise. There is no proper knife fighting stance. They do not watch TV to learn their techniques. Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Oh yeah, A slash across my chest will not put me into hypovolimic shock as you suggest. I probably will not even feel it with all of the adrenaline running through my body. And I usually do not run around naked so you will have to go thru my clothing. As far as gutsfalling out I think thats pretty funny. Do you carry a sword? Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Hi Ed

Saw some of your posts and thought them interesting. Some points I agreed with some I didn't.

While I agree that stabbing attacks are potentially more dangerous than slashing ones, I find the stabbing ones slower and easier to defend against. The slashing attacks (which are more common) come faster and are more difficult to defend against. They also don't require the commitment of a stabbing attack, nor the re-loading.

Your comment on attacking and rendering the attacker unconcious is reasonable if you have a significant physical advantage over the attacker. Smaller people will be putting themselves into a dangerous position by closing if the attacker is stronger.

JohnL

p.s Maybe you shouldn't advertise your web site until it's finished. It currently contans no information of value. (other than contact info) ]www.lonewolfjujutsu.com[/URL] [/QUOTE]

Actually slashing attacks are just as easy to counter as stabing attacks. To help you with the speed difference watch the shoulder group when you do your technique. Do not watch the knife hand. Yes that is way too fast for you to react. Practice this with a training partner. Have your friend do horizontal slashes with a practice knife. Back and forth. Look at the shoulder group for your timing. Move in and do your technique.You want to attack the knife arm at it's highest apex.It is slowest at this point.So you have to move in. Like an irimi technique of aikido. Diagonaly left. One of my favorite techniques is 1. Step in left strike the uke's radial nerve with your left forearm. At the same time strike him in the face with your right elbow. 2. Step diagonaly right and palm strike him in the groin with your left open hand. Uke should now be bent over.3. Smash the back of his neck with your right forearm. Its hard to teach though words sometimes so be patient with my web site. I will show you examples in the future. Remember small clip point knives require speed to cut. Moving in cuts down on its cutting ability. Practice, let me know if this helps.Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Actually slashing attacks are just as easy to counter as stabing attacks. [/QUOTE]

I'd suggest that they are both bloody hard to deal with, and surely it depends on the situation. If forced to generalise the stab moves on one line, but the slash can be diagonal and therefore to my mind harder to avoid - I find it easier to deal with dojo stabbings than dojo slashings, but if someone really wants to stab you in a civilian situation, I'm under the impression you'll be stabbed before you knew you were even under threat.

Also, have you been slashed across the chest? If not how do you know you wouldn't be in shock? - Not having a go, im curious. Even with the effects of adrenaline you don't need much more than a broken bone to go into shock. A 2 inch deep slash across the chest is going to lead to serious blood loss, thats no trivial matter.

Alec


[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 06-21-2003).]

I agree. Criminals do not advetise. Most blade type of attacks are ambushes. And you are right both are difficult to deal with. It is however important to have the right mind set. You have to have guts to survive any attack. And going back to the begining, what ever and however you are going to be attacked, you are going to have to deal with it. Attack the attacker. End it as quickly as possible and go home.Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

I missed the second part. Yes I have been stabed and slashed. What to see my scars? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
I challange you to take and ananomy and physiology course, or better yet become an EMT and volunteer at your local hospital. Spend time in the emergency room and learn. You may learn alot about trauma and related injuries. Do't listen to me, find out for yourself. Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Well thanks for the calm response Ed. However I still don't agree with the main point that you were making. As for the dick measuring contest you alluded to, being an ex Chief Warrant Officer in the US Army doesn't mean squat in itself - REMFS dont tend to experience hand to hand combat unless you include getting cut in a brawl over who makes the tea. My experiences of edged weapons are my own and I offer my opinions based on those experiences. I've done my time in the services here in the UK so let's shelve the bravado shall we.
Getting back to the issue in hand, lets also not get into the throat cutting arena. I was not refering to jumping someone from behind I was talking about specific face/side on cuts. In any case im sure you'll be aware that the most effective method of doing the above is not to cut the arteries in the neck.... Next issue, the weapon itself. If the object in question is a "box cutter" as you call them and you are wearing a heavy leather jacket then yes fair enough, your torso has some protection. However casual reading of my post would highlight my reference to a suitably heavy and sharp blade. As to the adrenalin issue....thats just plain old BS bravado again isn't it. Someones chest gets peeled open (and no im not carring a sword,a cold steel tanto would do just fine) and the sheer sight of the blood will stop most people cold. Further cuts will cause further blood loss and shock is the natural result of such a loss of blood volume. Ok you might have beaten him to death by then but you're still p***ing blood aren't you. I dont recall suggesting that it is easy to step up and slash once, hit an artery, step back and admire the view as your opponent bleads to death. In fact the thrust of my post was not based on ME having the blade at all. I was responding to your cavalier disregard for getting cut as opposed to getting stabbed. Any confrontation where a blade is involved will result in multiple cuts unless you are very lucky. Those cuts if received in certain areas can cause sufficient blood loss to induce clinical shock, not to mention the debilitating effect of realising and seeing physical evidence of ones own injuries. If you don't think that is the case and that those reading your post will happily shrug off such injuries with an adrenalin enhanced death or glory attitude, being mindful only of the "stab" then frankly im appalled. Turning to the issue of technique, we clearly come from different schools of knife fighting, because the x type pattern is generaly accepted as the most natural and common attack along with the downward "icepick" stab. I'll give you the "guts spilling out" comment, that was more for highlighting my point than a clinical commentary....I shall endeavour to be coldly specific in future. I certainly agree that only the most idiotic of attackers would give you an even break in a knife fight. On this basis, slash or stab you are liklely to get done either way. On the prisoner issue, toothbrushes with razor blades embedded in them are equaly as popular. They tend to cut rather than penetrate im reliably informed. Frankly I think you need to clarify in what arena you are referencing your comments to. On the battlefield, standing there trading fancy slashes and intricate cuts is BS I agree. I would further agree as stated above that the smart attacker attacks unawares and with a concealed weapon - is so there is virtualy no defence so the arguement is moot. Therefore the pertinent arena is the civilian one where you are presented with the blade and the attacker is using it as much as a shield for himself or as an instrument of control. This individual is unlikely to want to close to stab you, but he may well slash a fair amount if you refuse to comply. Implicit in your arguement is the concept that this is less of a danger than the man who tries to close to jam the blade up under your chin or your ribs. It is this point that I took and continue to take issue with. On the issue of defence, you listed a pattern of techniques that you descibe as your favourite - I sincerely hope this wasn't meant as a defence to an attack with a bladed weapon. It is overly complex and appears to have no element of controlling the blade carrying arm. Would you care to explain?

Regds
Mr V

[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 06-21-2003).]

Wow, some thread.

I guess it depends on the type of edged weapon, a person probably will only stab with a screw driver, and if a “frenzied” attack will do so repeatedly.

But a blade can be used for slashing or stabbing, which will they use???

Both are jolly nasty.

Of course as has been said most knife defences that are taught are utter rubbish.

As for the “x” cut it is really a term for continued fore and back hand slashes that hit the body, and any slash that causes you to loose a lot of blood will cause shock, simple!

Most stabs don’t bleed much, depending on vital organs being hit, but of course they do cause deeper trauma than a slash.

I really do see both Mr V and Ed`s points [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] but as I said it does depend on the type of weapon and its application.

BUT the initial attack is what is the bigger problem, it is rarely seen or felt, an edged weapon attacker normally goes into “ sniper mode” and strikes when his victim hasn’t a clue that he is being attacked, not much defence against that.
Yes, some do “hide” behind the weapon, but not the majority.

I do agree that the only real defence is to take the cut/stab and try to kill the attacker ( sounds so easy doesn’t it) lets not even bother with fear factor and the simple fact that despite our training we would have never done this for real with a determined attacker.

I would also say that once again, we are talking for 2 different cultures and as such mind sets of attackers, the no1 edged weapon in the UK is a glass, with a screw driver as the main domestic weapon, so 1 is a slashing type and the other a stabbing.
But most attacks I have seen for real or on CCTV, or heard about, were from behind, again not much defence against those.

I am good with a knife, I train with it so I can teach defences against it. Whilst I agree that using a rubber knife in training is very limited, I have NEVER lost against an unarmed partner, I just slash at what ever is nearest and work my way into them, and yes, will probably finish with the point at the throat just for effect, But stabbing, on a technical level, is not as effective as slashing.

Ed, I too have much experience in this field, I don’t envy your injury’s. I hope that you continue posting.

Regards to all

Mark

Well, neat.
Regarding Ed's "Challenge", I AM an EMT, and I'd like to put in my two cents. First of all, SHOCK is a precise term, meaning decreased blood volume (hypo=low, volemic=volume), either from loss of blood or from several other causes. It has nothing to do with pain. So Ed is right, in that the chest muscles are not sufficiently vascular to cause enough blood loss for shock to set in. But this DOESN'T mean you won't curl into a ball and whine like a baby. You might, and you might not. Fact is, pain response is a highly variable thing. As far as short knives lacking slashing power, think again. A knife with a deep belly and serated edge has PLENTY of slashing power, and will go through clothes handily. Leather and thick nylon are OK against a light, dull, non-serated blade, but against a razor sharp spyderco, they are just tissue paper. Before anyone asks, yes I've done cutting tests on leather jackets etc. No, I'm not a street warrior. Anyway, I'm going to go try and get some. See you.

Wow I'll try to comment on all. First by your comments ,you have no experience in trauma, medically speaking. Again, not all people will go into shock when stabbed, slashed or even shot. Do the research. Yeah maybe the old lady down the street fainted, but someone REALLY attacking you FOR REAL is not going to be stopped by your x cut across the chest. Any cut, stab, slash is going to bleed. But certain areas of your body will not bleed as profusely as you might think. I am sorry to again inform you to quickest way of killing someone is to stab and stab. You are also wrong on the amount of blood lost thru a puncture wound. For example a stab to the kidney will produce a large amount of blood loss. Most of it will be internal. Plus the shock value is tremendous. A stab to the subclavian artery will produce loss of consciousness in about 2 seconds. Death will follow in about 4. There is nothing you can do about it either. Screw drivers are great because they penetrate deep. Your spyderco will not. Sorry you have Cold steel tanto. Good knife. That will penetrate deep. Hopefully your is 6". A slash type of attack is way over rated.Yes any knife attack is dangerous and yes you are going to get cut.BUT. if you know the weapon that you are faced with,FEAR will not overwelm you.You will be able to protect yourself. As far as being a REMF, not all warrants are little girl scouts. So lick my cookies. Ed
P.S. What is the razor in the tooth brush in prisons really used for. Answer this correctly. It is not what you have stated. Go back and ask you prison pals.

Jamoni, thank you. What I mean about the spyderco is that it requires speed for its ability to cut. Yes all knives can be very sharp. Take away the mechanism of the weapon and you leesen your threat. Understand what I mean. Ed

Ed.

You seem once again to have conveniently side stepped the pertinent issue in favour of lobbing subjective medical opinion into the arguement and telling everyone to "do the research". You continue to comment on how WE couldn't stop a determined attacker with OUR blade using the cutting techniques I alluded to. Firstly I disagree with you on this on a practical level, I'm happy to prove my ability to cut someone to bits with a training knife any day of the week. However the more pertinent issue is that most people here will find themselves DEFENDING against a knife wielding attacker (or certainly an edged weapon of some kind) NOT defending themsleves WITH an edged weapon. On this basis, it is necessary I would suggest to consider the attacks they are likely to face. This I would suggest would be repeating advancing slashes and decending "ice pick" stabs. You however stated that slashes are a minor concern. This was what I took issue with and continue to do so. On the prison issue, the melted toothbrush and razor is still generaly a face slashing weapon but I can check again if it makes you happy. Ok facial cuts arent likely to lead to clinical shock but I still don't want one do I. This is half the point actualy, you only seem concerned with fatal injuries as if anything not instantly fatal is inconsequential...we'll have to disagree on that one. The other isseu you seem to have avoided is the frenzied nature of many attacks with bladed instruments. This leads me to two points. One, frenzied attacks lead to a greater number of injuries, mostly slash related injuries until the defences are overcome and then puncture injuries - by then you are toast anyway. Two, you haven't responded to my coments on your jujitsu based defence pattern to a knife attack, which was overly complex and impractical very much like the ones displayed in the article that lead to this thread. It seems that many people with a jujitsu background consider themsleves well qualified to preach on edged weapon defence and yet suggest potentialy lethal defences (to the the defender). Some ex military men all seem to have a God given right to wax lyrical about their CQB and close combat skills. One then finds that they spent their career whitewashing stones and mowing the adjutant's lawn. In fact the only "training" they got was in Basic and it is invariably crap. So if you don't mind ill leave your "cookies" where they are thanks.

Regds
Mr V




[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 06-22-2003).]

Mr V, I am glad you are able to write your opinions from the comfort of your home,practicing your knife techniques on your blow-up doll, Keep up the good work.

To answer your question. The main point that I was trying to make was at all cost try to keep from getting stabbed, move in and take the attacker out,not for tea as you suggest. And go home. How ever you do It, I really don't care. The second point, to go home, you have to be very aggresive in your knife counters. Most people try to range, get a few hits in then back off an try it again. You CAN NOT box with a knifer. Your in the shit, so lets just get it over with. It is hard for someone to attack when they are being pressed.

Go ahead and grab my knife hand. You will be eating my other fist while you are pulling off your TV shit. My point is the knife is the tool. Concentrate on the tool user. By staying inside or close you actualy lessen your chances of getting seriously cut. But you have to be aggressive and relentless in your attack.

My technique. Walk thru it again with your blow up doll. It is very simple to execute. Or wait for examples on my web page.

I'm sorry you have such misinformation and disregard for the military. You probably got kicked out for being a wimp.

Fighting is 80% mental. You should be more educated on human anatomy to further your martial arts study. The Japanese,when developing Jujutsu practiced on prisioners. They dissected them to gain knowlege on how the human body works. There is always your blow up doll.Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Ed, You have been nothing but rude since you got here, to nearly everyone who hasnt had the same opinion as you. Granted much of this may seem to be "all in fun", but on more than one occasion you've jsut been an out-and-out dick. Many of us here are most likely just as, if not more, experienced as you (myslef not included, as I'm not old enough for this. Though I do have a moderate ammount of knife training).You tell us all to "do the research", and yet all youve DONE is insult people. Does doing that require alot of research?


Maybe we should take from your fine example and "do the research" on how to be a perfect jackass.

Ed,

You do yourself no favours being so abusive.

You also said “The main point that I was trying to make was at all cost try to keep from getting stabbed”

I don’t think any one has disagreed with this!

But the point about slashing is that it causes larger surface area wounds and they do bleed more, I did say that some stab wounds are worse for bleeding than others.
Again the “X” cut to the chest is a generic term for repeated fore and backhand slashes. I believe that there is a guideline of something like 200 stitches length of cut to the body cause this near instant shock through blood loss.
Also the “x” cutting action with the arm and wrist is indeed normally a skilled knife mans move, it collects limbs on the way into the body.

I have a copy of the FBI surviving edged weapons video, I have been in the English police service, I have trained for YEARS with the a Police defensive skills instructor. I do know what I am taking about, as I think do you.

Where a victim is initially stopped by a knife slash/stab isn’t really the issue, it is how bad you are injured in the long run, we all know that we can fight with very bad injuries when the adrenaline is pumping and then fall over when the conflict is over.

Not much of a victory when we knock out a knife man , who has taken a kidney with a stab, or given us a “Chelsea smile”

Ed you say “I am sorry to again inform you to quickest way of killing someone is to stab and stab.” Well I can see your point, but doesn’t it depend on where we get stabbed? Of course the number of stabs increase internal blood loss, as do the number of slashes. And if we were stabbed a number of times the chances of hitting a vital organ increase, simple maths!

The tooth brush and razor blade is a reality, blades are very easy to smuggle into prisons, and most men need them for shaving!!

Even a pen/pencil can be a terrible stabbing weapon, as the prison attack on Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) clearly demonstrates (I’m not complaining mind you)


Ed you say “You CAN NOT box with a knifer. Your in the shit” err, how else are you going to hit him, without a punching, perhaps some TKD kicks!?

Interesting have you ever trained Boxing WITH the knife in the ice pick grip, I find this absolutely devastating, nothing is gonna work against a skilled knife man who gets the drop on you, even carrying a gun, it could never be brought to bear in time,

Again great thread but can we not be so rude.

Mark

Point taken. My rudness is directed towards mr v and his off handed comments towards the military. I've worked with various police units and for the most part thier tatics suck. They do how ever have heart and do a tuff job.And recently I have seen an effort to improve thier tactics. But here in the states most cops don't know shit about cqc.With exception of specialized units ,who by the way get thier block training done by the military.
Is everyone from england on this site?
Maybe I am in England. Its been raining every damn day on the east coast.
The reference to boxing is the ranging that people do. Meaning tit for tat manuvers. I suggest that you move in an attack, do not withdrwal once you have started. And finish it. Most people will be thrown off guard by your agressivness and you will gain the mental and tactical advantage.
I am not mentally focused on the knife or in the fact that I am going to be cut or stab. I am focused on doing great bodily harm to my assailant. If I die then I quess it was my time. I was going to die that day anyways. My point is that you have the right mindset to survive a knife attack or any attack. If you don't, if you worry about this and that,you will freeze and get hurt. Ed

I really dont think Mr.Vigerous deserves rudeness from anybody at all, Ed.

Mr. V has continually shed useful advice after useful advice on hundreds of topics throughout this forum, and has always managed to stay the voice of reason during even the most heated of arguements. As far as I have seen he has never lost his cool, and has never been disrespectful to anyone else on this forum without them first provoking it at least a few times, and has always listened to other peoples opinions without saying "Im right, your wrong".

His posts are always well recieved by me, and I'm willing to bet the same goes for nearly anyone else on this forum.

Be careful who you disrespect on this forum, Ed. Insulting people is not the way to gain respect.

ED!!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

you have done it now!

you said "Maybe I am in England. Its been raining every damn day on the east coast"

I will have you know that this month the UK has been hotter than Jamaica, greece, spain and Siberia

-------------------------------------

I must say that my impression of USA law enforcement is a little to prone to depend on the gun, In the UK of course most Coppers dont have a gun, so they need to use baton or empty hand defences. But yes, it is still very limited training.

The tit for tat way you mention is indeed a stupid mind set, I cant still believe that I still on occasion do it, but I guess I have to answer to the legal system, a solider in war doesn’t so training in pre-emptive ness is much much easier.

This is the best thread we have had in ages………….

Regards

mark

Guys, remember the idea is to go home to your wife and kids. Or Mum in some of your cases. Tried by 12 instead of buried by 6. We in the military have to abide by the same laws as the civilians do. We are dealing with deadly physical force issues.What do they call it in English law. Probably something similar. You have the right by law to seriously f--k someone up if they are trying to kill you. You have to assume someone trying to carve you up with a knife is trying to kill you.Right? Ed.

Ed.
Thanks again for not answering any of my questions and instead resorting to calling me names. Well as you can imagine Ed im quite upset I can tell you...

Ok ill be honest shall I. I'm not ragging the military or those who have served in it. I'm afraid you cant duck under the blanket of the military for protection from the comments that I aimed at YOU personaly. I initialy objected to a statement you made on a technical level. We could have had a nice little debate about it and we both might have learned something. However YOU chose the age old and highly boring dick measuring comback of: Well im this and that and i've been doing this for this long what about you. In other words "here's my credentials boys, if none of you have got any bigger IM RIGHT and you can all blow me." Well sorry to disapoint you Ed but there are a lot of experienced people here from all different backgrounds. It's generaly not appreciated for some new boy to jump in the middle with his big old boots and say RIGHT who wants to learn from me I'M the Muts Nuts. Its even less acceptable to then start with the juvenile name calling when you get called on it. So ill try this just the once more until I move from interested participant in this thread to moderator.

1) I agree with your violent dispatch of the attacker with a knife. How you do this is as you say not really important. I DO NOT agree with your "walk through" method which ignores any semblence of control of the blade or at least an attempt to do so. I also suggest that the techniques you described are flowery, potentialy dangerous and too Jujitsu orientated.

2) I disagree, in concert with the above with your cavalier attitude to getting cut. Others have suggested why this should not be the case so ill not repeat my view.

Now Ed. you can either debate these points with me and we can have an interesting thread or you can keep mouthing off and your time here will be very short. This is the final thing I have to say to you on this matter other than to reply in relation to MA and self defence.

Regds
Mr V

Ed.
To be more specific and in refence to your combination, which appears to be the one in your "move of the month" on your website.

1)Have no problem in principal with the nature and area of the block. However why not secure the blade arm when you have the opportunity, as you step in for the elbow strike to the head. That weapon is still a live threat, can be drawn back against your blocking arm or withdrawn for another strike. You might get lucky with the block on the nerve, however you might not.

2) The elbow shot is good, er but why stop? Having seized the knife arm and thrown the first elbow, keep throwing them and scream like a lunatic in his face at the same time. Why the hell only throw one elbow and then remove your only barrier to the knife wielding arm to throw a palm heel to the groin? That's just demonstration showboating IMHO. You've done a sequence there that is typicaly jujitsu knife defence. You've used four different techniques when two would have done.

I'd also like to know why the attacker is nominaly only attacking once? Is his left arm useless? Does he only feel like attacking you once with the knife? Where is the frenzied attack of reality?

With the block grab and repeated elbow strikes you can meet the frenzy head on with your own frenzy. With your sequence you asking for a knife in the ribs or a smack in the face as you change techniques and direction.

If anyone else thinks im talking out of my backside here, please responsd. Here is the link. http://www.lonewolfjujutsu.com/id5.html

Regds
Mr V



[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 06-23-2003).]

Thanks for looking at my site. Firstly, alot of people focus on grabbing the knife. Logical it sounds in therory, but not very practical. Grab someone's wrist who does want you to. It takes both of your own hands to hold him. Meanwhile the attacker is free to hit you with his free hand. Ok Grab and move off to the side while continuing to hold on. Well now you are grappling and will prabably go to the ground at somepoint and unless you are good at it, your toast.
Holding on to the attackers hand and raining blows is fine except that you will not be able to hold on to him for long with one hand. You are also staying in front of him providing a nice target.
If you notice in my exsample, I am zoneing off to his left, providing a minimal target while still striking. Also we at Itto Ogami Ryu strike in combiations. When I elbow smashed him, his head snapped back, his hips came foward exposing his groin. What a nice target. More power to the strike. He sort of walks into it. The whole sequence demonstrated takes less than 3 seconds to accomplish. Also when being hit and driving foward it is very hard for someone to drive forward on to you. Only Mahamad Ali was able to hit good running backwards. Remember the attacker is surprised by the violence of your responce. You have now caught him off guard. And for the moment you have broken up his game plan. Also you are overloading his pain centers by striking his vital areas. Just hitting someone anywhere will not put someone down. Very little people have that true knock out ability in thier strikes. So we go high-low in our attack in this instance. Hitting points that count, that will do damage and will keep the attacker off guard.
I hope I explained this well enough.
Thanks for the apology. Have a nice day Ed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Ed.
Thanks for the constructive reply. I don't recall apologising to you for anything, but if it makes you happy then so be it.

Turning to your response. It surely a question of speed and sheer brutality. This encounter is going to be over in seconds. In my suggestion, the block and then grab will I agree result in an immediate struggle for release and you are correct, if I just hung on and did nothing then I'd probably have my grip broken. However as soon as I get any kind of grip on the wrist or the sleeve im moving diagonaly forward and right (I agree with you on this point) and firing elbows and head shots. Now I hit pretty damn hard but even if as you suggest my knockout capability does not come up to scratch with the first headshot. I guarentee the guy will be tunnel visioning with bells and whistles in his ear. Half a second later he gets another and another and so on. Now considering the short space of time that has elapsed between the grab and the mulitiple strikes to the head. I strongly dispute any claim that 99.9% of people are going to remain focused on struggling to free the blade arm. On this premise I remain in a measure of control of the arm throughout the encounter. I certainly don't suggest that anyone should become blade hypnotised when facing a knife, yes you should certainly concentrate on the opponent. However, the Blade is the primary threat. I'll take a shot from his off hand securing the blade if thats what it takes - this though is not even a requisite. Lets be honest the block, secure and elbow strike should be as one, not one after the other. Throughout your posts you have suggested extreme violence and forward movement as your watchwords. I agree with this concept with the proviso that the forward movement is forwards and to one side. I simply do not accept such blatant disrespect for the blade.

Regds
Mr V

[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 06-23-2003).]

New methods are not easily accepted. But hey at least we agree on taking the attacker out quickly. I prefer to do it in another method. Try it with your practice partner, You will find that most of the power in your strikes comes from the hips not the shoulder group.This allows a smaller person to disable a larger person. A smaller person may not be able to develope enough power to do damage. If he uses his hips for tourque, he will generate alot more power. The technique you discribes uses most shoulder group strength. And you are hitting only one target. His face or head. With your method , you will definitly be grappiling in short order. I hope you are good at it. Hey why don't you open a grappiling forum for questions on that aspect. The site will not let me.Ed

Hey Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
New methods are not easily accepted. [/QUOTE]

Nothing that you've described on your multiple posts on this site through the W/E could be described as a new method.

I also saw that you have added the technique to your site. Having already commented that your site contained no info, I thought I should look at it when you put some stuff up.

The first block/strike looks poor to say the least. Any resonable knife user will slash your arm.

The second move, the elbow strike would be more effective with the palm of the fist down. The muscle alignment is better. In addition, as your left fist is now in mid-air, why not grab his weapon sleeve to stop him slashing while you try to get your elbow in. You've lost nothing by doing this.


The palm strike to the groin with a nearly extended arm. Not exactly a power strike is it. Also, if you've hit him with the elbow as in photo 2, he'll have rotated and won't be face on as you show in photo 3.

Phot 4 seems reasonable, but at the range you've shown in photo 3, I would prefer to have seen a dropping elbow to the back of the neck.

Generally your photo's also indicate poor body positioning for good power generation and lack of solid technique.

I know it's difficult to show techniques in still photo's but hey, you put them out there.

JohnL

It is easy to be an arm chair quarterback. From your other posts you have proved to me that you have limited experience. Thats ok we all start somewhere. Someday if we ever meet at a seminar I will be glad to demonstrate the technique on you. Thanks for looking at my web site. Next month I will show you a good grappiling move.
As far as the current move of the month goes, I am quite sure that you are allways in a perfect stance when attacked. Actually when you elbow someone in the jaw, if you do not drop them right away, thier head will turn but will come back quicly. They will take a full or half step back. The groin strike is solid. And it works.
I would like to explain every princible about human body mechanics that I have learn but I am sure your hard drive does not have enough space.
Further I would like to see an exsample of your technique. The one I presented is just one of many. Maybe you will like the next one. Maybe not.Ed

Ed.
QUOTE
"The technique you discribes uses most shoulder group strength"

Not the case. In meeting the attacking arm with your left arm, cutting in and securing, the hips and lower back should begin to torque clockwise as part of the process of meeting the attacking arm and striking it with sufficient tension. Then on securing the grip and steping diagonaly right and forwards, the torque is released as the elbow strike is unloaded onto the side of the jaw /temple etc. This is basic body mechanics. Power comes from the knees, lower back, and finaly the muscle group associated with the body weapon that you are using. Trying to suggest that I implied that one should block the attack, step up and simply swing the arm from the shoulder is ludicrous. Granted I did not specify the specific mechanics of all the movements but then again I presumed I was talking to my peers on this issue not to beginners.

I understand where you are coming from on this issue in terms of the principals of muliple attacks and sets ups for further strike. I just happen to take the view that it is typical Jujitsu. Nothing new lets be clear, you haven't reinvented the wheel. I've seen these set pieces many times before, with similar stikes and counters. They look good for attracting punters and for demos, but they are simply too complex for real world scenarios. You claim i'm only striking one target area. Correct. I'm striking the control center of the whole body, very hard in rapid succession in order to minimise the length of this conflict. I don't want to be flash. I don't want to integrate set up techniques and strike specific nerve clusters. I want to blast his heads clean off of his body and as you say get home to the missus.

Regds
Mr V

My last reply was for john l.
I disagree with your targeting though.
Continue do do as will, It makes my job that more easier.
Just curious do you have any ground experience?
Can you open a topic for grappilers besides judo? Thanks Ed.

Ed.
Re ground -Yes lots.

Re "making your life easier" - Its not me im worried about its the people who you are teaching what I consider to be dubious, showboating techniques.

Re targeting - if you have a problem with hitting the temple / jaw area with an elbow then God help you.

Re grappling forum - no I can't, you have to submit that to the site owner. Go to "site suggestions" at the bottom of the forum list and make your suggestion.

Regds
Mr V

Whereas I truely appreciate the free flow of ideas (less bickering would be good), there are a number of issues I would like to add my 2p to.

On adrenaline and the effects of an aggressive encounter.

Studies by various groups have indicated towards the notion that a victim of a knife attack is unlikely to be aware of the first strike, or at least register the importance of this strike. This does'nt mean that, as suggested, you collapse at the sight of your own blood. Of the prisoner's I have spoken to, after being attacked with a bladed weapon, none of them realised, at least initially what was happening.

A side question to the more medically aware, is clinical shock possible due to psychological trauma, not just a physical one?

Although I agree that fights tend to be more mental, at least to begin with, than physical, this ability is only based on experience. If you have not trained for it, you will suffer the effects of the 'fight or flight' syndrome, quite probably to your detrement.

On the issue of how knives are used and the effects on the victim.

Where I agree that cutting the arteries in the neck is not the quickest way of killing someone, I disagree that it's difficult. I have, unfortunatley, witnessed the video evidence of such an attack. It looked very much like a wild swipe. The offender also said that he didn't believe that he hit that hard.

Based on my, admitedly limited, experience in this field, I would like to ask another question regarding targeting and possibly intent. Will a "slasher" aim mostly towards the neck and face, as the action itself is more natural at shoulder height? And thus a straight "stabber" be more inclined toward the torso? I suppose an "ice pick" attack would be both?

On intent. Although the slashing action can be ultimately lethal, from experience, these attacks are usually intended to f**k up the victim, not kill them. Those who stab, want to kill the victim.

On the issue of the prison razors. The uses for the razor are numerous. This ranges from obvious hygiene, hobbycraft, drug taking, tool making and of course weapons. The razor is usually melted into a plastic handle. This can be used as a simple slashing weapon, or if the razor(s) are positioned correctly, they are used to injure and significantly scar, not kill.

Razors are not the only knife like weapons used. Any item that is sharpened can be used. Dependant on the knowledge of the user, the effects can be devasting.

I have looked at the site posted and it defence strategy.

Fine in theory, but I think the groin strike is a little presumptiuous. It assumes that the first strike would be effective and your attack is unable to respond to further strikes. It also, as has been suggested, ignores control of the weapon hand, although in its defence, I could suggest that if you hit hard enough, the weapon may be dropped. That's a big if and may.

I agree with the motion of the body, forward and side, and the concentration on the weapon arm, not the weapon. Although there is a ditinct possibility of being slahed with such a block, I take it that it is safe to assume that this is probably going to happen anyway, that at least you are moving into a preferred position to strike. If you are moving in close enough for an elbow strike, might I suggest using the blocking arm to wrap around the weapon arm. The theory being, with the arm trapped between the arm pit and elbow, you are using more muscles than if you try to grap with your hand alone. The draw back from this is that effective movement for further strikes is impaired, as you are limited in movement and now are attached to a thrashing opponent. I suppose the follow up strikes could be head, knee, elbow or fist.

If you don't like this, then after your initial strike, wouldn't running be a good option? This is dependant of course to the extent of your injuries, but it seems logical to me that I would want to leave an environment that was causing me harm and find on where help may be more readily availible, even if this ment bleeding to death on route.

You could argue that you have not disabled your attacker enough to make such a move. Lets face it, we are not mind readers. None of us know what will happen if we run away or if we stay and fight.

Well that was my 2p worth.

Budo.

Good reply judderman. This is just one technique. I do like wrapping my arm around the knife arm as you suggest. In this instance I prefer to go to the throat with a possible takedown. Maybe a version of tai-otoshi. Just one of many possibly avenues to counter.
Sometimes you can't run. Maybe you are with your wife and kids.
Thanks for looking at my site. Ed

Judderman, good response. This is just one technique. The follow up to the groin is there as a combination in case I didn't drop the guy with the elbow. When elbowed in the face his hip will open giving me a good shot at his groin. It is good to go high low on you attacks keeping the attacker off balance at hopffully hurting.
I do like to wrap my arm around the blade hand. In this case I would go for the throat and then maybe a tai-otoshi type throw. I would depend on what the attackers reaction to my attack are.
In my experience slashers tend to range. Their targets are the face and the neck but also the arm an its tendons and arteries. Most serious slashers use razors. I don't remember any of them going for low targets like the legs. But if you tried to kick one they might. They also do not present thier blade right away. But when they do attck they are relentless.
Sometimes you can not run. You may be with your wife and Kids. Anyway thanks for looking at my site. Ed

Sorry for the repeat. I didn't think the first one went through. Ed

Any ideas on the other questions I asked?

Budo.

Hi Ed
I have just had a look at the knife slash defence on your website and I have a question:
After moves one and two, why have you let go of the arm hoding the weapon in order to strike the groin with the other hand? Would it not be safer to maintain control of the weapon holding arm and strike with your free hand?
Sharon

I was wondering the same thing actually.

I Was just on eds website,& I hate to say it,But I was'nt impressed.The forst pic you have someone,Or ed, blocking/stricking nonchalantly someone with a knife.BAD MOVE,& Then,As he was standing upright he delivers the elbo to the jaw without much effort.The third pic shows him doing a groin strike,But he is clearly still in the dangerzone. The last pic shows him coming down with a forearm strike,But he does'nt put his body into it,& these techniques need to be sperated,There should be no more than 3 technique used in a one on one fight.PS Talk about a willing participant. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Oh btw,No offinse to ender,But if he saw what was wrong,& The person defending,Or ed,did'nt,What does that say about him as an instructor,Either that,Or someone Certainly needs some serious kata time. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Ed, a few suggestions:
1. Get laid.
2. Take an anger management course, available for free through the VA.
3. Take a course on marketing, available through most community colleges.
4. Stop drinking while posting, or at most restrict yourself to beer.
5. Take a vacation.
6. Stop screaiming at the computer. It scares the neighbors.
7. "The unexamined life is not worth living."
TOODLES!

Wadowomen, I don't know you but lets assume you are the "average" women. No disrepect. How many of your hands do you think you will have to use to hold on to the again " average" mans arm? Probably both. While you are focusing on controling his knife hand, he will be punching you with his free hand. The techniques you saw on my web page are not one step sparring techniques. They flow extreemly fast. The first picture is not a block but a strike. At nearly the same time you are striking with the elbow as in picture 2. Time elapse aprox 1 sec. Next I go low for the groin because when you hit someone in the face they hip foward and take a half step back. So in keeping the attack pressing foward I step diagonally right and strike the groin.Picture 3. When you strike the groin his head will come down. That is another reason why I am off to the side. So I do not get head butted. Elapse time 1.5 sec approx. I never timed this but it is fast. In the last photo I forearm smash the back of his neck. So in about 2 sec I have struck 3 major vital points and one minor vital point.
Of course the pictures were staged. Only video can show the technique at its fullest.
I am going to hire Bob Guccioni to do the rest of my web site. It will cost millions but at least ever minute detail will be perfect for the academy.

I don't focus on the knife. I do strike the knife arm as hard as I can and then I move on to striking other vital areas. I do not know of many people who can hit back when being struck in the face with an elbow. But let say he ducks my elbow shot. Because as you know it wasn't perfect. My follow up shot is for the groin. Maybe that will get him. But I continue to strike at vital strike points until he goes down.
Fighting is not a correograph preset of perfect moves. I recall a high ranking Karate guy who fought in the UFC. When the fight started I did not see those perfect punches as others have discribed. After all those years of training he was throwing wild caveman punches. In fact I didn't see and chamber punches at all. Even trained boxers who fight throw wild hay makers when the shit hits the fan. If you grab someone, especially some one with experience you are going to grapple. And you better be very good at it.Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Jamoni, Maybe I'll take a vacation in St Louis.Ed

ED,
You are right in that I would need two hands to hold the average man. I am lighter than average, although quite tall, and have to adapt a lot of techniques because I am nearly always lighter (and less strong)than my (usually male) opponent (I am 5ft 7 and just under 130 pounds).
Also, just to clarify, I did realise you were striking the weapon arm, most blocks are strikes if done with commitment.

Back to the point I was making, if it was someone my own size and I was using your method, I would still prefer to maintain control of the weapon arm.

I have done quite a bit of knife defence training (admittedly in the dojo only) and am sad to say that every time I have been "cut" and/or hit a lot no matter who the attacker and no matter who the instructor. What I have learnt (in my case) is that maintaing control of the weapon arm (and trying not to get hit) is extremely difficult but (for me) has the highest survival rate.

Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamoni:
Ed, a few suggestions:
1. Get laid.
2. Take an anger management course, available for free through the VA.
3. Take a course on marketing, available through most community colleges.
4. Stop drinking while posting, or at most restrict yourself to beer.
5. Take a vacation.
6. Stop screaiming at the computer. It scares the neighbors.
7. "The unexamined life is not worth living."
TOODLES![/QUOTE]Jamoni,I Can't help it if I'm right,But if you can't Or will not learn from what I've posted then I guess that makes you a dummy,Or someone who thinks he can learn the MA from watching the television,Or playing video games. PS & If you want to be ignorant MAs,Then more power to ya.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Karate Dude (edited 06-25-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Jamoni, Maybe I'll take a vacation in St Louis.Ed[/QUOTE]

Hey Jamoni,

I think Ed is intimating that he will come to St. Louis and kick your ass for insulting him. Or, maybe he wants to see the arch or something.

Everyone is so nice in St Louis so why not visit. Besides I do need a vacation, the desert sucks! Not the same sand as on Miami Beach.Ed

Hi Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Wadowomen, I don't know you but lets assume you are the "average" women. No disrepect. How many of your hands do you think you will have to use to hold on to the again " average" mans arm? Probably both. While you are focusing on controling his knife hand, he will be punching you with his free hand. extreemly fast. [/QUOTE]

If you note, this was discussed on earlier postings on this thread. WW said that generally she needed both hands on the weapon arm to stand any chance of controling it. Any opinions on those postings and responses.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi Ed

If you note, this was discussed on earlier postings on this thread. WW said that generally she needed both hands on the weapon arm to stand any chance of controling it. Any opinions on those postings and responses.

JohnL

[/QUOTE]

Ok, I'm not Ed.

I would disagree with the concept that a woman, average or not, would not be able to control the arm of a man, average or not.

If you wrap your arm around theirs, so the arm is caught under the armpit and over the elbow, then squeeze in as if trying to touch your opposite shoulder. You are using far more muscle groups than if you were to hang on with your hands. Here you are using most of the muscles in the hand, arm, shoulder, lats and pecs, rather than just the hand and arm.

We are taught that "tieing off", that is gripping your own clothes, as high up as possible, increases the pressure.

Budo.

Judderman
You are right, I can hold a man in this way. However, he is then able to stab me in the back. What am I doing wrong?
Sharon

St. Louis sure is nice, especially my neck of the woods. Yep, North Grand is lovely this time of year. All the pretty red and blue flashing lights, the festive "fireworks", the friendly pharmacist on every corner, and the lovely ladies who are always happy to see you! Man, I could sell package tours!

Sharon.

You getting stabbed in the back is probably due to the artificiality of the training environment. Let us assume that you block an attack wrap the arm and (i assume) strike the attacker with you free elbow/hand/fist etc virtualy simultaneously. If you are not doing this simultaneously then yes it is probably realistic to get stabbed. If you are then your uke should really take into account the fact that you have just notionaly elbowed him in the throat/jaw/temple. In these circumstances he is in reality unlikely to be concentrating on jabbing you with his knife. To turn to the question of your wrapping technique. In my opinion you should be trying to block and then turn your blocking arm over the top and back under his to secure the attacking arm. Control of the elbow is key as mobility in this area would at least in theory allow you to be stabbed. I would advise a wrap up that effectively forms an arm bar or tenbin lock, with his forearm in the crook of your elbow and your hand wrapped around and locked against his inner bicep/armpit - thus imobilising his elbow. With this lock clamped against your own body, only his wrist should be mobile which should not be of significant threat. If the above discription is confusing ill try again.

Regds
Mr V

I disagree with the holding on to the knife arm concept and especially women trying to hold on. No offense. Have you ever tried to catch someone's punch. Yes you can arm wrap, but then you are grappiling. Trust me I am a great grappeler and I love it,but... we are dealing with the street, mutiple attackers Ect. It is very hard to hold on to someones arm with just your one hand.Save the grappeling for the last resort. What do you do if you fail to secure the arm on the first go? Do you step back and allow him to attack you again? I am not being a jerk. I just can't grasp your concept. Ed

Also to add, I agree the arm wrap is a secured hold, but don't you think his free hand will be trying to do the same to you. Example, a hockey fight. To me your odds are 50/50. Thats not too good. Ed

I'd say 50/50 isn't too bad at all. Mr Psycho is attacking me with a knife, I don't have a knife or any other equaliser. And the odd are as high as 50/50???

-C

Thanks Mr V, I see what you mean about the simultaneous strike (der!)
I will try the arm wrap agin, taking note of you advice.
Thanks again [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Sharon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
I disagree with the holding on to the knife arm concept and especially women trying to hold on. No offense. Have you ever tried to catch someone's punch. [/QUOTE]

Forgive me Ed, but you appear to be contradicting yourself. Earlier in the thread you stated that you also consider wrapping up the arm as an alternative technique. In this post you do not.

Or are you saying that although you like the arm wrap version, you wouldn't advise this for women? If this is the case could you explain why you believe this?

[QUOTE]Yes you can arm wrap, but then you are grappiling. Trust me I am a great grappeler and I love it,but... we are dealing with the street, mutiple attackers Ect. [/QUOTE]

If this was the case then surely the best advice would be to do as you are told or hope for the best. In my experience it is very rare (at least in the UK) for any weapon presented in an attack to be used. As Mr.V, and others, will attest, the weapon is used as a barrier. Street attackers rarely work alone, so multiple attackers are always a serious threat.

[QUOTE]It is very hard to hold on to someones arm with just your one hand.Save the grappeling for the last resort. What do you do if you fail to secure the arm on the first go? Do you step back and allow him to attack you again? I am not being a jerk. I just can't grasp your concept. Ed[/QUOTE]

Part of this is me being pedantic. I don't think anyone would really advise someone to grapple using the strength of just one hand.

In addition the target range is the arm, for me prefferably just below the elbow, and given that the offending arm is travelling in an arc, the position that you place your body into to recieve this attack, would allow the "wrap" to be more straightforward.

As for not getting the arm wrapped up, then ok. What is being advised above, and to an extent on your own website, is that the techniques happen simultaneuously, or at the very least in rapid sucession. Thus if you fail to secure the arm, it would hopefully have been controlled enough to allow the first series of strikes from yourself.

I would imagine that if you have committed yourself to a course of action you better carry on and end it. Quickly.

Budo.

Yes I think without being discriminating that women are at a disadvantage when grabbing a person hell bent on knifing or punching. They just don't have the mass. Again no disrespect to wadowomen. I worked with many women who where great a what style they praticed including Jujutsu. They were always dominated by someone larger than them. Could they handle someone of thier size. With superior skill I think they may. The most important trait would be there mindset. Are they willing to go all out including die if they have to. Women tend to display this trait most when protecting children. But could wadowomen have the mindset to get the job done. I hope so. But unless she is big, height and weight, I doubt grappiling is a good move for her.

Budo I tried to follow what you were saying. The last sentence is basically how I operate. Take the guy out quickly. There is no maybes. I will. See the mindset.Ed

O yesI do like the arm wrap technique. But I am really good at grappeling. My choice of targets would be the throat. And I am large enough to handle most. If I fail to secure the arm I would go back to striking as in my web site. Which by the way is just one of the techniques I teach.Ed www.lonewolfjujutsu.com

Whereas I agree that it is a good idea to be technically proficient when it comes to grappling, the particular technique we are discussing is quite simple.

I agree that once you have locked on to the arm, that a smaller framed person is probably going to be thrown around like a rag doll. I have been in similar situations, but the dynamics change.

You have to hold on and strike, which is difficult, but the weapon has been isolated, and I think most of us would rather risk being punched of head-butted, rather than sliced and diced.

Your attacker is now trying to control the whole of your body wieght with one arm. Although for some people, this will not be too difficult, the effort will be huge. In addition to this the attacker will no doubt switch to strikes and will tire quickly.

I guess the key here is making sure you have the first strike(s), which will have the added impact of psychological surprise.

Timing is also important. If you leave it to long, the attack turns into a snotty mess on the floor and you are into grappling. I think most of us would agree, this is the last place you want to be in, in a street situation.

At worst, you want the encounter to be over within a very few seconds.

Budo.

Here's another one then.

It would be possible to adapt the techniques described above to all manner of attacks, from the slashing action of a blade or stick, to drunken haymaker punches.

The first movement is inside the attack, closing the attacker down, but allowing space for you to move.

My question is this, how could you adapt these techniques if you moved outside the attack?

Budo.

I'm not sure I am following you on this? I thought I was angling and moving to his outside.
Also question? Would you grab the attacker the same way as discused if he was shirtless and sweaty? Ed

Ok I think I fiqured out what you asked. Do you mean the outside of the blade arm?Ed

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Glasheen:
Ok I think I fiqured out what you asked. Do you mean the outside of the blade arm?Ed[/QUOTE]

Yes.

What I was taught is to hit what ever I perceive moving first. In the case above the guy is swinging wildly. It's probably easier to enter on the inside.
But with the variables of combat, if I found myself at a angle that put me on the outside or maybe he was backswinging one technique comes to mind. I would strike down on his radial nerve with my forearm, lets say my left forarm. I would immediately go for a throat shot with the same forearm.Like a back fist but only striking the throat with my forearm. I would then follow up with a right groin strike followed by a left hook punch to the jaw. Staying outside his knife arm the whole time.
You can also upstrike an incoming attack with your right forearm and at the same time strike his tricep with your left elbow trying to hyper extend his arm and break his elbow. Sort of pulling with the right striking with the left.
I think it is important that in a real confrontation you are already suprised and at a disadvantage. By striking what ever moves first puts you back on the offence and if the knife has penetrated you, maybe your reaction to the incoming attack will prevent it from going deep. Ed