Elbow Blocks

I've just seen a clip from a TACSAFE video.

The pratitioners are primarily using their elbows to deflect on coming attacks.

What do you think? Useful or Hollywood?

Budo.

In my opinion the idea of basing a system of self defence around using the elbows to block is a little "Holywood" but in fairness ive not seen that video so I shouldn't be too harsh. In principal its a great idea, the elbows are second to none for destructive blocking. The only problem is that when put "on the spot" it takes a lot of pre programmed practice and / or lots of luck to connect with the elbow all or even some of the time. That being said, when it comes to an "intermediate" range of fighting, where elbows/knees etc are most effective, I prefer a system whereby I have both hands clenched at my temples with the arms hanging verticaly down, much like a western boxers guard. From here you can both throw elbows and forearms from all different angles, but also minor adjustments enable the elbow to be more effective than normal in blocking attacks. That being said, no plan survives contact with the enemy anyway, so though useful and something to aim for I suggest its very hard to guarentee in practice.

Regds
Mr V

[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 04-22-2003).]

Not bad. It is the hardest part of the body.

You can't trap or parry very well without using the hands or wrists.

With regars to MRV, an short elbow or very short chicken head block is about as on the spot as it gets.

Don't forget their value in jamming rising and circular knees in close. Right in on the thigh. Ouch!

Blocking with elbows and using forearms to strike and throw may make for a very smooth and quick fight. And no external bruises, except for their shin of hand.

Here is the clip.
http://www.tacsafe.com/Seminars/Seminars-intro.htm

click on the top one of the two pictures.

Budo.

I think elbows are great close in, but I would prefer to keep any agressor at arms length if possible.
Sharon

Sharon,A real fight would be a close in fight,& Elbows should be used for mostly blocking/striking,Not deflecting, As deflecting a strike from close in is'nt practical. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Sensei Rhodes, how close are you talking about and what about trapping and tegumi drills?

I'm Not speaking of fight thats in arms reach,But more of a face to face,altercation. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Ishinryu Kid, I agree, most fights end up close in, I said I would PREFER to keep at arms length if possible. Best case scenario is asmack in the jaw as they rush in or taking out the legs before they get close enough. But I appreciate that most times most of us would not be that fast or that accurate and I agree that an elbow strike can be devastating.
Sharon

i agree with wadowoman. Keep the attacker as far away as possible. I've never used elbows for blocking... Although in Sunsu kata (isshin ryu version) there is an elbow block...)

I did more snooping-thought elbow usage looked familiar, it's arnis.

Those crazy philipinos, lol.

As for elbow blocks, well, I can't say I have ever tried. I will have to try this.

Ill get back to you all with the results of what I find.

Judderman: Thanks for sharing.

Mr. V.: Until I watched the clip, it sounded a little Hollywood to me, too. But after watching, IMHO it seems these guys are on to something. They're just training in what seems to come natural (At least to yours truly) when you're engaged up close. At that range I find that, in trying to keep my fists close to my face in order to cover it, I wind up blocking with the bottom part of the forearms/ elbows those blows aimed lower than to the face/ head. This out of necessity, but the bonus is the effect on the opponent of connecting with the elbows. The majority of the blows from the attacker in the clip seemed aimed at the body, with fist or knife.
But I wouldn't try to block an attack to the head/ face this way. It would require employing the arm almost horizontally, thereby severely limiting your blocking area. Too easy to miss.

Some points-

Attacks do not normally happen at long range, they are usually close quarter and brutally fast. The key to dealing with such situations is to completely understand this range of combat and become proefficient with your tools and tactics in said range. To attempt to fight at long range only, or to keep your attacker at said range is only prolonging the situation and increasing your risk of injury or death. As an example- a man attacks you with his fists, you keep him at long range (pucnhing/kicking range)as you attempt to deal with his attacks. He gets tired of the situation takes a couple steps back and draws his firearm. You know the rest of the story. In short, you should be skilled in all ranges of combat but understand the range where real attacks occur and be prepared through proper realistic training.

As for elbow blocks- this depends on the situation and how you attempt to block. In reality your defense should be based on natural instinctive movments. A common response seen in most people, even trained martial artists, is the "flinch" or "starle" response. This consists of instinctively bringing one or both arms up in front of the face in order to block a fast or unexpected attack. Because of the natural positioning of the arms it is relatively easy and natural to direct the tips of the elbows at the attacking limb, which in turn can be pretty effective. The key to this type of block is to train a natural movement to be become faster and more direct. So, in such a case it is effective and practical to use the elbow for blocking. However, to attempt some fancy type of elbow movement might be counter-productive and dangerous depending on the situation.

Steve http://www.geocities.com/combatives

Had a quick look at the videos, they didn't appear to show elbow blocks, just standard forearm blocks.
What I didn't like was the way he kept letting go of the weapon arm, when he had a chance to control it. His partner was far too co-operative in what he was doing.

The gun defences were not that hot either. Only watched the first 3 as they were slow downloading.
He seems to disarm the opponent at will. Yes that's going to work!
He then seems to conclude each defense by retrieving the gun and pointing it at the attacker.
Standard gun defense is, if you disarm the guy, by all means tuck it away, or use it as a club. When you first grab it you won't know if it's loaded, jammed, a replica etc. The only thing you do know is, you can't rely on it.

JohnL

I've not seen the clip yet, but I wonder if it's like the Filipino method of "gunting" (destructions).

Are you guys aware of using destructions on incoming attacks? If not, you should really look into this! Using these "spikes" as we call them, doesn't compromise your structure in any way if the distance is correct (it isn't a technique that I would use in close quarters, but if you have maintained your "critical distance" and force your opponent to close with you, they can be quite effective, to say the least!).

-John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Had a quick look at the videos, they didn't appear to show elbow blocks, just standard forearm blocks.
What I didn't like was the way he kept letting go of the weapon arm, when he had a chance to control it. His partner was far too co-operative in what he was doing.

The gun defences were not that hot either. Only watched the first 3 as they were slow downloading.
He seems to disarm the opponent at will. Yes that's going to work!
He then seems to conclude each defense by retrieving the gun and pointing it at the attacker.
Standard gun defense is, if you disarm the guy, by all means tuck it away, or use it as a club. When you first grab it you won't know if it's loaded, jammed, a replica etc. The only thing you do know is, you can't rely on it.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

I was so intent on looking at the blocks that I wasn't even thinking about the follow up. Had another look at the first clip. You're right on the knife defenses!!! Especially good for a chuckle were the couple of times he moves within the inner arc of the free knife hand, and the opponent just stands there with the knife stationary.
In the second clip he did do a much better job of controlling the knife arm.



[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 08-23-2003).]

My computer sucks so I dont look at these clips often, and I didnt look at these but looking at a boxer type stance i could see where the elbows would be useful for blocking upper body torso strikes. Other than that I think you should just use your elbows to strike.