Caged Combat

Posted by: robertdeniro

Caged Combat - 04/11/03 08:21 AM

I watched a programme on TV called 'caged combat'.It was an ultimate combat style programme.It was interesting to watch.The combatatnts were two kickboxers,but after what seemed like a very brief flirtation with a couple of kicks and punches each they quickly went to ground.What I wondered as a karateka was for how long I could avoid going to ground with good kicking and punching technique as well as good movement,both lateral and forward and backward?I kind of suspect these guys concentrated more on their groundwork and the kicks and punches at the beginning of the bout were token efforts.Their movement was pretty limited as well.
Posted by: raccoon

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 08:31 AM

Since this is in the self defense/ street combat forum... I will response as if you are asking "what can a karateka do on the street to avoid going to ground ..." etc.

And my answer is ... not for very long, because street fights aren't meant to be long endurance test. That said, if I (a karateka) was confronted by a shoot fighter on the street, they grabbed a hold of me and try to drag me down, they will very quickly find my fingers sinking down the socket of their eyes. I might succeed at that or I might now. But as soon as I do that, I think it's fair to expect the grappler to cover their face, and therefore let go of my clothings.

If I already go to ground with him... I will do the same thing. Get my fingers in there eyes to get their hands off me, then hopefully I can get back up. If not, then it's apparent that more pain-compliance is called for. I would try to make my finger a fish hook, put it in the mouth of this big fishy guy on me, and rip his cheek with it. Do it fast though, or the big fish might bite.

Just some thoughts from someone who never fought on the street, but spend too much times in a karate dojo full of shoot fighters...

-raccoon
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 10:07 AM

My first love, martial arts wise is, and probably always will be karate. I love learning it, practising it and teaching it.
For self defence purposes I also do what I call doorman's jujitsu. By that, I mean jujitsu based practical self defence, rather than beautiful stylised but complicated jujitsu (before you all shout, I am not knocking traditional jujitsu as practised in the UK at all. It is great, but not for me).
I am, by no means brilliant at grappling or ground work, (and still embarassingly crap at break falling) but I do think that the techniques I am learning from people who have done a lot of door work are more effective in a street situation than the karate which I love, and combining the two is even better.
In answer to your question Robert, you might want to supplement your karate training with some grappling art because many fights do end up on the ground.
Sharon
Posted by: Khayman

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 11:16 AM

I agree with Sharon about supplementing you karate training with some groundwork training. Most fights end up on the floor.
You were wondering how long you would last against a grappler, it really depends on the skill of the grappler and whether they had cross trained themselves. You mentioned the punches were token efforts - if you watch a boxing match they can go on for a while, their hands are padded but both fighters know how to respond to the punches, if you can get someone on the ground and make him submit then fight can be over quicker. That is not to say a fast kicker or puncher cannot end a fight by landing a knockout strike before the fight hits the ground. But to me the grapple is a safer option than trading hard punches and kicks.

I wouldnt look at the question of how long I could last before I was taken down, I would look at how I could improve my groundwork skills to be on a level playing field once I was taken down.
Posted by: robertdeniro

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 11:44 AM

But,at the risk of repeating myself,would well executed punches and kicks as learned by any decent advanced karateka be enough to prevent one of these caged combat fights going to ground.As I said,and I've had a go at Kickboxing,the guys who were in the cage in the bout I saw almost threw the puches/kicks in a half hearted way.The kicks seemed pretty good (mawashi geris only)but their timing was poor.Surely a spot on well timed Mawashi Geri to the head would stop most anyone (though it is a slightly risky kick).And what about the basic Mae Geri...a devastating kick with minimum risk.When I trained with some kickboxers before I noticed an absence of real technical ability in the kicks.The painstaking way in which we learn kicking techniques in karate requires a very patient approach,which I'm not sure exists in kickboxing,or at least the kickboxing clubs I've attended.
Posted by: Khayman

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 11:54 AM

Again it depends on the skill of the grappler and the skill of the karateka.
A good grappler would be able to shoot past your guard, mount, submit - over.
A good puncher/kicker who gets in fast and first could take out the grappler with a knockout. Ive seen many of these fights and I dont think you can say a karateka would win or a grappler would win - its the old wrestler v boxer situation - who ever is the best on the day and the fastest.
As per kickboxing kicks - they are usually alot harder than karate kicks, in karate - for mawashigeri we tend to train to hit a target, pull back and put down, in kickboxing the technique may not look as nice but it uses the whole body in arcing kick which follows all the way through.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 12:22 PM

If you can take him out with a good kick great, but as Khayman says, he might be good enough to shoot past it.
As you say, a head kick is very risky. Great on the mat, but dangerous on the street. I would rather kick his legs out, making the head closer!
I think the only answer is to keep improving your karate and at the same time learn to fight on the floor in case you have to.
Most of the old masters (not just karate) learnt and taught to strike, block as well as grapple for the same reason.
Sharon
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 07:49 PM

It depends how good you are in the trapping range. With no gloves on, if you get an upper hand here and don't knock them out, you are extremely unlucky or need more training.

If you practice counter throws and stand up grappling, there is less chance to go to ground.

Being tackled isn't good, but the moment it happens, the tackler is extremely vulnerable. Someone with their head down unguarded is easily kicked in the face repeatedly, or elbowed/forearmed in the base of the skull. Also the tackle can be redirected and arms and head tangled up head down, arms splayed upwards moving into the passai salutation.

As for karate kicks b=not being powerful, that depends on how you practice them. Practice both slapping and penetrating power.
Posted by: mark

Re: Caged Combat - 04/11/03 10:12 PM

Only caged combat i have ever done is when i clean my kids hamster out.

"Nasty sharp pointy teeth”

Mark
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Caged Combat - 04/13/03 09:59 AM

GREAT answer Sharon!

As many of you know, I'm a person that advocates the use of 'street' tactics training through an approach based on athletic and sportive training. Can the two be combined? Absolutely! And they NEED to be combined.

The answer to this question can best be understood by looking at the following scenario:

Someone (a "shoot" fighter) attempts to tackle you. What do you do?

There are two possible approaches. 1)A "vital" point strike or, 2)A "sport" based technical counter

I would prefer the sportive technical counter. The reason? Training to go for the eyes is something that you cannot train for in a realistic manner. However, you CAN train realistically to sprawl on your opponent's shot in on you. You can do this over and over again for REAL! He actually shoots and you actually sprawl out. There is no need to "pretend" to attack some vital point.

If after you sprawl, certainly the opportunity to attack further is now available. If this attack is the eyes, fine. Just remember that attacks to these targets give your opponent more energy. Is this something you want to deal with?

In the above scenario, I would sprawl and work for center positioning. Once I had superior position, I would work to control it then begin to knee my opponent vigerously in the head. Head trauma ALWAYS wins fights.

Thats just an answer based on the mentioned scenario. Obviously it's not as easy as this. However, athletcic training allows you the ability to improvise better than training unrealistically because the "feedback" is real.

Take care all!
-John