Kicks

Posted by: judderman

Kicks - 03/01/03 08:28 AM

What about defense against everyday standing kicks?

Any ideas on effective defense tips?

Budo.
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Kicks - 03/01/03 07:03 PM

Using tai sbaki, well placed turning, front or groin kicks can make the attacker's leg fairly inoperable.

People bag the Shotokan method of blocking front kicks with the lower block. I have a version which works.

Using the ulna, whilst guarding, strike the rat point on the instep. Gently keep the leg caught but flicking the hand towards you. "Block" with the blocking hand using the chicken hand strike on the same spot. As you do this, a aiki like throw can be done by stepping foward and pushing in on the throat as you take the balance from their legs and keep hold of the leg, ala trad. karate guard position.

The first two moves of Taikyoku Shodan never looked the same.

I suppose a side/turning kick might be countered by stepping to the outside, defelcting/controlling he leg, and in one smooth motion, pushing it far enoungh as they lose balance, finsh them, or simply kicking their standing knee as you move in. Moving to the inside asks for something like a hip throw or moving in on their legs and taking their balance away.

The point behind the calves, achillesor rat point, (struck upwards) are all good for the first weakening shot.

Any intial shots against a turning kick will be harder to make if you wish to follow up with a takedown, as the balance and disancing is different.

Then there is all the stuff from katas, where someone not reached ShoDan has an invariable arsenal available to them.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Kicks - 03/01/03 11:57 PM

Jam and counterpunch. ANY strike has a sweet spot, where the speed, leverage, striking surface, etc. is perfect. The power of a strike drops off dramatically outside of this spot. To avoid the full force of the attack, you can either move into the kick (jamming it before it gets up to speed), or move away (taking the kick after it's power is spent. If you jam it, you are in a perfect position to counterstrike, as the opponent is standing on one leg!
If you move away on a turning kick, you can try to scoop under the leg and turn it into a takedown.
If your opponent plants his kicking leg heavily after a kick, time him, and smash his knee right as he drops his weight on it.
Posted by: judderman

Re: Kicks - 03/11/03 04:53 PM

A very simple version I've seen is to block a front kick (mae-geri style), by raising your own foot and block the attackers ankle or foot. Not exactly destructive, but simplistic and effective.

Any other thoughts??

When you say trap, what do you mean? How do you mean?

Budo.
Posted by: MrVigerous

Re: Kicks - 03/11/03 05:36 PM

Hmmm I think a number of the methods suggested though potentialy effective and suitable for dojo practice would be a touch too flowery for street application. Assuming a relatively low level of skill on the part of the attacker (and assuming we are standing upright), the most likely kick is going to be a "soccer style" roundhouse kick to the legs, or the straight swinging "hob" aimed at anything from ones knee to ones groin. In a real live sitation I would personaly go for jamming with my own lead leg / shin before following in all guns blazing or probably take the impact of the kick on the side of the arm / side of leg - and preferably introduce something nasty like my elbow. If it works, it all good. Quite often though what will probably happen is that I get kicked in the leg, think "ouch" and then metaphoricaly kick seven shades of sh*t out of whoever did it on the counter [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regds
Mr V
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Kicks - 03/11/03 10:03 PM

It's amazing how many high kicks leave the crotch wide open to an enterprising knee.
If it's a straight kick, or really sloppy, just sidestep and counterpunch to the head/ribs.
Posted by: senseilou

Re: Kicks - 03/11/03 11:54 PM

move your body, and tackle the leg he is standing on, like a barrel baseball roll at second base-take his planted leg with you. I know what I will hear about this, but it is an option and will do some serious damge to the planted knee. This takes timing and practice. But if you want a standard answer, shin block the kick to the side and follow with a kick off the blocking leg. A fovorite of Motobu. Fusei Kise likes a toe kick to the inner thigh of the planted leg after shin blocking the kick. If the kick is higher than waist-try an elbow block then counter kick.
Posted by: judderman

Re: Kicks - 03/17/03 06:11 PM

Sorry Lou, could you explain what a barrel baseball roll at second base is please?

I like the elbow block.

I suppose the difficulty with some of these is allowing the kick to come close to you, thus allowing you to make full use of its extention and vunerability.

I get nervous when people show me things which mean coming to meet the kick. If you get the timing wrong, you get a face full.

I have used the Shotokan versions to good effect and variation. (and on a quick aside Joe ~ what is a rat point?).
Moving inside the kick then using the downward block to hook it whilst using the forward motion to assist in a nice head strike.

Even using the block to push the leg away, so the attackers back faces you, is disorientating, although limits effective counters. That said a good hard shove does wonders.

Just a random thought (which no doubt I will regret later). Given the legs are longer than arms, would just trapping the foot, then using the extended leg as lever work?

Budo.
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Kicks - 03/17/03 09:01 PM

The rat point is on the instep area, between the shin bone and muscle, about 4 - 5 inches from the bottom of your foot. The area contains a lot of connective tissue. I don't know the St, Co, Gb names, I just referred to a shichen chart. I just know it's there and it hurts a little bit more than hitting the surrounding bone or muscle.
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Kicks - 03/17/03 10:17 PM

Judderman, if you get behind the guy, throwing a double palm strike to both kidneys plays HUGE dividends.
As far as using the leg for leverage, there is the fancy TKD technique in which, when your leg is grabbed, you jump up and kick to the face with the other, thus falling down yourself. Doubt if this has EVER been done on the street. If you do get the leg, try a treetop. You just grab the ankle with both hands and throw it as high in the air as you can. Study catch as catch can wrestling, as this is a common position to get into.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Kicks - 03/18/03 05:39 PM

I prefer "spiking" (Filipino "gunting")against kicks (or punches for that matter). This is essentially the same principal that many traditionalists use to inflict damage on an attacking limb by way of a hard block.

It's just a different way of doing the same thing really. Hard to explain in any detail. You're using the point of the elbow for the majority of these spikes. It's pretty cool because it is VERY painful and fairly easy to hit. Also, spiking doesn't expose you when performed correctly.

-John
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Kicks - 03/18/03 09:08 PM

Jkogas, one of my favorite techs against a kicker! Now I have a name for it!
Posted by: mark

Re: Kicks - 03/19/03 12:38 AM

all depends on how good the kicker is, and how much of a "drop" he gets on you.

I agree(once again) with MRV, the "rugby conversion kick to the bollocks" is the most common i have seen. with a proper defensive guard this should only hit the thigh/knee anyway and if a straight leg block can be deleverd then it is "happy bye bye time" for the attackers shin.

If the kick can been seen in its wind up, then surely a hard punch to the jaw will show the attacker the error of his ways.

I suppose an instinctive willow block would help as well

Mark

"everything and nothing works"
Posted by: joesixpack

Re: Kicks - 03/19/03 03:40 AM

Low kicks can be countered by kicking the offending leg higher than the intended point of impact. You have to train to do it, but it's worth the effort. Higher than your hips, and they open themselves up for the two or three pointer.

Although sparring can look very silly.

Gunting/spiking, I've suggested something similar before and I like it. I have seen it used to block punches as a method of receiving a punch, often employed by thai boxers. The elbow up in a "striking" position with the hand covering the side of the face?
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Kicks - 03/20/03 09:16 AM

That's it Joe!

-John
Posted by: Oldwolf

Re: Kicks - 03/20/03 11:17 AM

I was going to refrain from comment here, but its got the better of me.
With only a couple of exceptions it sounds like some of you have never had to deal with an aggresive kicker outside the training hall, and some of you have never even had to deal with aggresive kickers inside a training hall.
Much of the comment passed here refers to methods from systems dealing with kicks delivered by a trained fighter in the arena of set fighting ie sparring or in the ring. All well and good, but as other topics have discussed much of system fighting styles do not translate well when some one has hold of your hair and his mates are kicking for conversion.
All I can offer you is that you find the animal in your dojo/traininghall/dojang/kwoon and ask him to stand in front of you and kick you in the nuts as fast and as hard as he can, you will stand in a natural stance, hands loosely at your side and try to defend.
When you recover try to train with reality not fantasy in mind. Sorry to burst bubbles but if youve been there for real you know there is no time,no cover, no balance, no friends, no ref and nowhere to hide.
There is also little pain at the time, I have had my arm broken blocking a shin and my shin broken blocking a steel toe capped boot, and those were the ones I won, didn't feel it till later.
Don't know where I'm going with this one but thats my spleen emptied.
Posted by: MrVigerous

Re: Kicks - 03/20/03 11:57 AM

Couldn't agree more, good to see you back Oldwolf. More of the usual brand of no nonsense cut the BS on its way i hope!

Regds
Mr V
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Kicks - 03/20/03 06:52 PM

Everyone has their own experiences....

-John
Posted by: Jamoni

Re: Kicks - 03/20/03 09:23 PM

Oldwolf.... Someone is wrong, you are right? WOW. That was easy. Who do you think is realistic? Who is living in fantasy land? Why? (and should I really let the dojo animal kick my nards?)hehehe