Boxing vs. Wing Chun
Posted by: CrimsonTiger
Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/18/03 08:53 AM
I'm posting this here because I tend to train my standup fighting for street-fight minded situations. But it's really more of a stylist/strategy question.
Without going into details, I recently sparred a fellow blackbelt who trains with me in karate...and had a rough time with him because he fights like a Wing Chun guy! (I found out afterwards he trained WC for 10 years before coming to karate...LOL!) My personal fighting style is very Boxer/MT with some karate kicking and some KF hand techniques mixed in. Usually very effective, but I've never had my hands tied up so much as I did with this WC artist. Eventually I started using my legs (he has TERRIBLE kicks!) to keep him at a distance and worked him open that way, but my lack of ability to handle him "hand to hand" bothers me.
Other than studying WC, what is the karate or boxing man's solution to a fast-hands style like this? Now (sorry to disappoint you John), this is a light contact sparring situation, so telling me to "hook his head really hard" isn't an option. Are there centre-line defenses that won't tie up my hands or require Bruce Lee-type hand speed to execute? Oh, and can we NOT have this degenerate into a "WC suck" "No! Boxing sucks!" "You suck!" "No, YOU suck!" "Take BJJ bcuz it rox!" thread? Thanks.
Regards,
CrimsonTiger
Posted by: SaNo
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/18/03 10:08 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CrimsonTiger:
I'm posting this here because I tend to train my standup fighting for street-fight minded situations. But it's really more of a stylist/strategy question.
Without going into details, I recently sparred a fellow blackbelt who trains with me in karate...and had a rough time with him because he fights like a Wing Chun guy! (I found out afterwards he trained WC for 10 years before coming to karate...LOL!) My personal fighting style is very Boxer/MT with some karate kicking and some KF hand techniques mixed in. Usually very effective, but I've never had my hands tied up so much as I did with this WC artist. Eventually I started using my legs (he has TERRIBLE kicks!) to keep him at a distance and worked him open that way, but my lack of ability to handle him "hand to hand" bothers me.
Other than studying WC, what is the karate or boxing man's solution to a fast-hands style like this? Now (sorry to disappoint you John), this is a light contact sparring situation, so telling me to "hook his head really hard" isn't an option. Are there centre-line defenses that won't tie up my hands or require Bruce Lee-type hand speed to execute? Oh, and can we NOT have this degenerate into a "WC suck" "No! Boxing sucks!" "You suck!" "No, YOU suck!" "Take BJJ bcuz it rox!" thread? Thanks.
Regards,
CrimsonTiger[/QUOTE]
well, in my opinion, take up wingchun, its by far the most effective defensive martial arts out there. If the guy u were sparring with u were actually a little more skillful in doing shin/knee kicks as done in wingchun, i'm sure it going to be alot tougher for you.
Posted by: MrVigerous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/18/03 11:38 AM
Wing-Chung isnt really my bag, having only done a little bit for fun and subsidiary training. However, i would suggest that where his advantage is domination of the center line and punching through the shortest route to the target, you (here we bring in the Karate [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]) should not attempt to meet him head on and battle him on his own ground -very "Art of War" I know. Counter his lateral domination with "sabaki" - control the circle, and constantly move to and dominate his blind spot through the most economical movement ie: around the lead leg, furnishing this movement with strikes that compliment the circular movement.
Regds
Mr V
Posted by: senseilou
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/18/03 11:55 AM
We study trapping drills, some static, some flow. The flow drills are good because you keep your hands moving all the time, it also gives you good hand speed. We work this alot and then started incorporating this into our sparring. I would train with a Kempo friend and would work my trapping with my sparring with him. He found it very frustrating as well, and felt it was my hand speed that was frustrating him, but in actuality it was the trapping that was hindering him. Once I was pretty confident with my trapping, I started using it with my Okinawan 'brothers' which again worked pretty well. Ttapping is both defensive and offensive and if developed can be a great tool. I too use this as a slow motion drill, to get my hands faster and learn how to use them before I actually get into real sparring. We also use trapping to set up our Jujutsu as well. You can find any trapping drills in Wing Chun, Jeet kune do and Chin Na styles as well. I think its easier to learn the drill than study the whole art of Wing Chun. Before everyone jumps on me for this and real fighting, I use this as a tool in my sparring technique and a drill, to enhance my sparring ability. On the street, a good left hook, does do the trick.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/19/03 07:46 PM
That's odd. That is the FIRST time that I have ever heard of a wing chun guy giving ANYONE a hard time in a real live spar situation!
Interesting.
-John
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-19-2003).]
Posted by: MrVigerous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/21/03 03:25 PM
How to make friends and influence people............
Mr V
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/21/03 05:05 PM
I'm only stating facts based on our experiences with wing chun guys from different kwoons.
Nothing more than that folks.
-John
Posted by: Cato
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/22/03 04:53 AM
Oops CT, looks like John didn't read the "can we NOT..." bit in your post!!!
Having done a little Wing Chun, I found it to be an excellent style for close in fighing. Perhaps western boxing has the advantge when fighting at arms length? I would imaging that boxers will always struggle to cope with the trapping techniques of WC, and fast jabs would be the best way to approach the fight.
Anyway, if you ask me...boxing sucks. I saw a boxer once, and he got beat. It's just not REAL enough...
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Budo
Posted by: CrimsonTiger
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/22/03 10:08 AM
*shrug* Ask me if I care if John (or any of the rest of you) tell me I'm a bad fighter because I'm asking about a WC problem? I'm here for new perspectives and answers. Not to piss farther than the rest of you. LOL!
But since it was raised, how do the people in your "train alive gym" handle WC guys John?
Cato, I know...boxers suck bigtime. I mean, look at that pansy-ass Tyson, and Lewis! Don't get me started on what a sucky-baby he is. And that Roy Jones Jr. guy? SUCKS! I don't know why westerners bother with fighting arts...
Regards,
CrimsonTiger
Posted by: senseilou
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/22/03 03:08 PM
Now we going after poor Roy Jones, and he didn't even say anything. What more do you want he is fighting a heavyweight(though a not good one)and telling everyone how dangerous he is and how Jones could lose in the 1 or 2 round. Man thats drama........However, at one time, Jones was a good technician. What I say is(I know you all want to hear this)is whats wrong with using Wing Chun AND Boxing. I believe its not necessarily the techniques you learn, but the principles of both, and lets face it, both have excellent principles. Learn the principles and apply them to your techniques. Really in Karate, isn't a short punch an uppercut? In the Nihanashi kata's for those who have them, isn't there a hook in the kata? Wing Chun is very defensive oriented, and gives certain people problems, not everybody, not style, but some people. If people have trouble against it, why not see what it has to offer. I am a boxing nut, love to watch all the youngsters especially the Olympic guys, its a past time of mine. To tell you though, that I haven't learned anything is false. I have picked up several principles and insights. We taught one of our girls to jab to the chest as an example. Not all the time, but when it was open. My Sensei wanted to see her spar and put her with an advanced student. After the first jab to the males chest, the ref(I know there are no refs, but this was my Sensei not me)stopped and said no point,, and she had to have focus to the chin. next time the same thing, time after that samething. The ref even warned her about punching the chest with a Jab, my Sensei said it was not a foul. Next punch she jabbed to the chest and the male dropeed his hands to block and the left hook to the head put him down. My Sensei died laughing, she didn't out box, him, out point him, she out thought him. The same girl, same fight, trapped the males hands,lead with an uppercut and Sensei had seen enough. She used both, boxing and wing Chun type trapping in a "simulated"-controlled practice session, not the real thing, but it was the 'lab' and she put her classroom knowledge to work, and it did. So why argue one way or the other, use both!
Posted by: Oldwolf
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/24/03 01:43 PM
Don't boxers in the clinch show some of the best examples of sticky hands, all styles overlap, there are just degrees of emphasis.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/24/03 04:08 PM
It's easy to say they SUCK from behind a keyboard tough guy!! LOL!
Best way to handle wing chun guys is to tie up their arms and clinch!! Underhooks man! Their elbows stay so far out in front of them (picture chi sau and you'll get the idea). God, that's a knock out waiting to happen!!! A YMCA trained boxer could handle wing chun guys!!
Gimme a break!
-John
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/24/03 10:31 PM
[QUOTE]Someting a white belt would say. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Cato
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/25/03 09:21 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isshinryu kid:
[QUOTE]Someting a white belt would say. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Or perhaps a twelve year old [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: CrimsonTiger
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 02/25/03 10:49 AM
John...whoa...dude...I was kidding. *flips the man some Ritalin* You couldn't pay me enough money to go in against Lewis or Tyson...at least not at the level I'm at right now. LOL!
You're completely missing my point as well. No going to ground, no grappling, no clinching. No contact. I'm asking for strategy here, not special magic techniques. It's a highly controlled environment 1) because my main sparring partner is prone to concussions and 2) because I want to force myself to think beyond my normal strategies. I've got plenty of power and a bit of juice for the longer-haul. My footwork could definitely use a bit more practice but it's passable. This is not my "full contact" training environment, but it's my 'lab' (as Senseilou put it, which is a great way of viewing it!)
So let's bring it back to the original point for those who haven't contributed (I would appreciate if you did!). You've got a WC guy of decent size who is taking it to you on the offensive. Besides the clinch, what other strategies/techniques would you use?
Regards,
CrimsonTiger
Posted by: roundhouser
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 03/05/03 02:14 AM
In wing chun your tought to watch the elbows and since a boxer only punches it makes it easy for a wing chun guy win because they and tought for real life stuff and boxing is just compitition realy.
Posted by: Jeniko
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 03/05/03 02:39 AM
We talk about a "boxer" as if he is a person, and not a persons, i beleive its the fighter who fights, not the style. I just don't think you can generalise a boxer vs a wing chun student...
There both fighting styles, i say learn both.
Posted by: Khayman
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 03/06/03 08:39 PM
Wing Chun works on the centre line philosophy so I think the answer is to not to give your opponent the chance to come at you with his linear attacks.
I have trained in Karate for many years, over the last few I have also studied Wing Chun. In Karate classes I have been known to use Wing Chun techniques, when they land my opponents usually cannot understand why they keep getting hit. I'm moving fast in a straight line and hitting them multipy times, why???
I'm using techniques they have not seen before, call it cheating, OK..but after time they learn my tricks and I have to find new ones.
Other chinese styles that use a circular movement such as Ba Qua have been known to work well against WC, by moving in a circle around the WC artist you are limiting their chances to come at you straight on.
I am a great believer that no one style is better that another. Each style has its own good points and bad. The real art is to take what works from each style and use it. And learn the weak points in each style - every style will have these.....
Posted by: senseilou
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 03/06/03 11:50 PM
well said Khayman-I agree totally. when we use to spar when we were more Shito Ryu, and sparred regularly, everyone knew your habits and combinations. We added trapping from Wing Chun and other styles, and all of a sudden people were having a hard time with us. Then the question was, "who taught you that" and "we don't spar like that" Yea well you have heard all the comments before, so why not, what ever gives one the edge, and something for you to practice, whats the harm. Lead with some Jabs and come back with a backfist off a trap and watch the confused looks. Best style, no style
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 03/08/03 01:47 PM
Well said Lou! I believe that footwork may be the key for you CT. Look at the angles of attack. Try to see the attack coming and step to the side at a 45 then launch your attack. I also train with a WC artist from time to time and had the same problems. I taped one of our matches as I often do and saw that if I side step then I could counter much easier. I applied this the next time and faired much better. I also found that Muay Thai style elbows and knees work well when you do get trapped up especially the knees as WC utilizes very few kicking techniques. Hope it helps and good luck Chen Zen
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 08/01/04 12:56 PM
guys!
i think your forgeting the eye strikes/ear rips/breaks,knees arms & grapplesetc, a wing chun student ould have at his disposal. in a ring these sorts of moves are banned, but wt is still a true fighting art. in boxing footwork and the upper cut are its most favourable attributes (footwork more fluent than wt). in a real life situation(on the street a wing chung guy should win).
wing chung anything goes boxing is just punches.
pompey
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 08/01/04 03:56 PM
Wing Chun is definately a fighting art and very effective if trained correctly. The original poster, Crimson Tiger asked how to defeat WC so as a ex practitioner I will tell you. WC philosophy is to never step backwards,always go forward or stand your ground. Because of this they utilize a very rigid fighting stance. Attack his legs. Also attack at angles. Dont try to overtake the centerline as this is his territory and he will beat you at it. Attack his mobility as he has little anyways, attack his balance with forward momentum, make him move back, he isnt accustomed to it. Move him back attacking his legs, as he makes the step back, step to an angle and attack hard with forward momentum and keep going. He will fall.
[This message has been edited by Chen Zen (edited 08-22-2004).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 08/08/04 11:30 PM
Crimson Tiger
I utilize a lot or trapping and boxing drills in my training and sparring, and have found them very usefull as suplementary skills. Someone mentioned that all styles overlap but with different emphasis. I completely agree. It sounds as if you are in a Japanese/Okinawan style. The pulling motion of the rear hand is basically the same as lop sao from wing chun. Nai han chi is basically all trapping and low line kicking. Makes sense seeing as it's roots lie in China...
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 08/08/04 11:41 PM
As for strategy, I have noticed that the style of wing chun does not seem to have much promise in footwork. I believe other styles to have much better developed footwork patterns and drills. You have stated that your partner ties you up a lot on the in range; Wing Chun is more of a defensive emphasis, so don't let him defend. Trapping is easier to see and counter when A. he doesn't make contact with you. B. the Wing Chun guy makes the moves. Why do you think that Bruce Lee sought insight else where besides his traditional Wing Chun training? He was never shown the proper footwork, so he sought it else where. Good question.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 08/16/04 08:00 PM
Two main techniques you need to employ, both are similar.
1. The WC principle of 'one hand out, one hand back'. Never throw a left-right combination to a WC guy, he'll catch the left and trap it with the right, then you're stuffed. Jab-jab-hook type combinations will work for you better.
2. Guerrilla footwork. The classic ring work jump in, punch combo, jump out. WC will trap the legs at every opportunity. If you're not in close for long enough, you can't be trapped.
Stay mobile; don't get into a trading blows situation, because you'll end up trapped. Always withdraw your punches. From there it's down to speed & skill, you should be equal on strategy.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 09/09/04 05:05 AM
As a boxer who wants to be a WC person it can be very complicated. Im going to be focusing on the punching side not the kicking.
Never take directly infront of him because of the center line theory, he will beat you good. Never throw hooks or a one-two combination but what you should do is constantly fight him:
-On angles, fight him at the wierdest angles and keep changing angles every 3 or less seconds.
-You have to move in and camp there. You will have the advantages if you if your right into his face, they are not trained to move backwards so keep that in mind.
-Once camped, start throwing uppercuts (Also, a good old stomping on the foot wont hurt you)
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/21/05 05:15 PM
To all of you. If you train in many different styles then you can be an unstoppible force. Just look at one of the greatest MMA fighters that is now retired Bas Rutten. He has utilized many different styles and has made the best of them to work for him. I Have personal trained in wing chun under one of Ip ching's sucessors for 5 years. The art (wing chun) has so many great and wonderful principles that are also implemented in so many other styles not just WC. What Advice that im trying to give you here is this and its something that my teacher gave me many years ago. "It is not the style that is great but the person who studies the art." And as far as those in here that are saying "wing chun sucks!" Or "Boxing sucks!" You are all very 1 sided and really have no idea what you are talking about. You are just going with what you know and its not a bad thing its just an uneducated thing.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/21/05 06:34 PM
JKogas,
A boxer against a WC guy (who has been trained prperly) does not stand a chance.
In my opinion a boxer does not stand a chance with most MA, because boxing is limited.
I would take out his knees before he even got close enough to throw a hook. Lets say i didnt use legs, then jabs go to the centre line which the WC guy will dominate, and hooks leave your centre line open for the WC to just pummel you.
The weakpoint in WC is probably ground techniques. In H2H combat WC is not the best, because it is the artist not the art, but its principles are solid.
I have seen you throw attacks against WC very often. All your posts excluding WC have been very informative.
Whats with the WC bias.
You might have met a load of WC fakes, but that does not mean that you can judge an art form that is old, proved to be effective, chosen by shaolin monks for practical defence above all other styles of kung fu, and that you have never practiced.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/21/05 07:40 PM
MAGr,
Do you realize that JKogas will have to now defend something he said over 2yrs ago?
JKogas
Moderator posted 02-24-2003 05:08 PM
I think John is up to it, if he even bothers.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 12:20 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
JKogas,
A boxer against a WC guy (who has been trained prperly) does not stand a chance.
In my opinion a boxer does not stand a chance with most MA, because boxing is limited.
I would take out his knees before he even got close enough to throw a hook. Lets say i didnt use legs, then jabs go to the centre line which the WC guy will dominate, and hooks leave your centre line open for the WC to just pummel you.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not JKogas, but I can't ignore this post and especially the first few sentences. All too often I hear in gyms and dojos (or read on this forum) guys talking about "if I were fighting a boxer I would do this and dominate," or "if I were fighting a grappler I would just avoid going on the ground."
It is sooooo easy to say that type of stuff sitting behind a keyboard or lounging around in your dojo where everyone (or at least the majority) of students there are learning the same style as you and share your biased opinions and don't expect you to field test your theories. But if you say that same type of stuff to a boxer, who spends a good deal of time learning techniques then testing them in the ring, you may not have the same confidence as compared to yapping at an online forum. He, or she, would most likely ask you to prove it in the ring or out of it.
This goes back to the old saying, "It's easier said than done."
[This message has been edited by kenjutsu n00b (edited 04-22-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 05:37 AM
This is very interesting, I understand why so many of you think that Wing Chun has "obvious" flaws - because you are not actually talking about Wing Chun as I understand it. wing chun should not be a "style" but a concept.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Wing Chun is very defensive oriented, and gives certain people problems, not everybody, not style, but some people. If people have trouble against it, why not see what it has to offer.[/QUOTE]
Wing Chun is not a defensive system or concept, the total opposite, it is an attacking system. It has no blocks and is all about intercepting and simultaneous counters
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
I also found that Muay Thai style elbows and knees work well when you do get trapped up especially the knees as WC utilizes very few kicking techniques[/QUOTE]
Wing Chun involves elbows and knees as well, using the part of your body closest to the opponent to deliver the attack - if this is the elbow, then you use the elbow. The Wing Chun I have learnt does have plenty of kicking, but there is only need to use the most efficient and non-telegraphic kicks. No point trying a roundhouse because you'll be on the floor before you are even half way through the kick
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
WC philosophy is to never step backwards,always go forward or stand your ground. Because of this they utilize a very rigid fighting stance.
Attack his mobility as he has little anyways, attack his balance with forward momentum, make him move back, he isnt accustomed to it. [/QUOTE]
I know that this is what you were taught, but you would do well to forget this mantra (perhaps this is a reason why moved on to something else? because you correctly felt that this is not a useful concept to bring into a fight with you?). This "rule" is clearly part of a "style" and not a concept, or at least not a useful concept. It has become doctrine to whoever is teaching this. If you come across someone who says they do Wing Chun but they have terrible footwork and use a rigid fighting stance, then kick his ass and tell him he does not do Wing Chun
[QUOTE]Originally posted by justhithim:
Why do you think that Bruce Lee sought insight else where besides his traditional Wing Chun training? [/QUOTE]
Bruce Lee never finished learning Wing Chun from Wong or Yip Man.
---------------------------
As for the topic starter. I am not sure what to say as to how to get around the problems you had during your sparring, you are lucky the guy did not know how to dispose of your kicking game as well! There is no "technique" to plan and execute in any fight, they are organic things. I would have suggested that you look into Wing Chun training in order to absorb some of the concepts for yourself...but it seems like there is a lot of bullshit out there waving the flag of Wing Chun.
If you can, keep sparring with this guy (and anyone else who gives you problems), play the session over in your head afterwards when you have time to digest what was happening and the principles behind his success/failure. Learn from each other, it is good to be challenged in the controlled sparring environment and to develop your own skills. If he is struggling against your kicking then explain to him what weakness you have seen that is giving you an advantage...if he can improve then this will force you to do the same. Good luck
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
In my opinion a boxer does not stand a chance with most MA, because boxing is limited.[/QUOTE]
Ah.
I'm sure you have extensive first hand empirical knowledge of boxing vs 'martial arts' and bags of experience of training with many boxers of all different sorts of caliber and that strong EVIDENCE leads you to hold this opinion.
Lets not for a moment think its what you want to believe it simply and purely because you are a martial artist.
[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-22-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 09:12 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoseikan Student:
Ah.
I'm sure you have extensive first hand empirical knowledge of boxing vs 'martial arts' and bags of experience of training with many boxers of all different sorts of caliber and that strong EVIDENCE leads you to hold this opinion.
Lets not for a moment think its what you want to believe it simply and purely because you are a martial artist.
[This message has been edited by Yoseikan Student (edited 04-22-2005).][/QUOTE]
I said in my opinion!!
I have never fought with a boxer,
But i am saying it is an inferior form of self defence because it fails to incorporate anything in the system appart from punching.
Is that not valid?
Gimme a break.
I know that it depends on the person and Tyson would kick my ass.
But the above still holds!
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 09:36 AM
I have fought boxers on the street and in the ring, there best in the ring and at mid-range. Of the sports and at mid range they are awesome pending there skill level and training.
But on the street and not a season street fighters they are vurnerable to other ranges and things they commonly are not prepared for, like leg kicks, strikes to the back, being spun, elbowed and kneed in clinches, open hand strikes, protecting their lower body and takedowns and it goes on from there stomps, locks, chokes and breaks.
Boxing as a base to grow from is great but by itself against any M-art be it Wing Chun or Karate it lacks alot. In gloves in the ring boxing would have an advantage if U are fighting by boxing rules.
I seen wrestlers thrash boxers on the street, I've also seen some boxers knock some large wrestler out cold in street fights. In the fights were the boxer loses, he able to walk away, bloodied nosed. Because the ex-high school Wrestler doesn't know how to hurt.
But when he wins rarely does his opponent walks away on steady feet. They are tough and explosive in there range.
[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-22-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 09:59 AM
As for fighting a WC stylist you need to bomb from outisde stepping off the center line with your body as you come in, you need to use your foot work to get around his forward gate or charge and attack from the off angle catching him as he turns to you in an effort to protect his center line.
I find mis-directions and fakes to work, also if an attempt to trap your hands try taking an half step back, don't push forward or up. You should bump him with your shoulder then sweep & double punch.
A simple hand fake that has worked for me is the lead jab or Oi-tzuki and a hooking over hand right coming under or over his high check. Your body movement going behind his body, so he has to turn to face you.
I also find them suceptable to quick front leg kicks, the power kick with the rear leg they most of the time block it with their Oblet kick and strike at the same time.
They seem faster because they are always doing two things at the same time, deflect and strike or short rolling multiple strikes but they can be countered by Off rythum combinations, hooking power shots and fakes and gos.
I'm more impressed with their stick legs stuff, though they are famous for their hands.
[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-22-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 11:05 AM
You know that still there are some in here that are still saying that either wing chun is bad and that boxing is bad. I have trained in many different styles and have been experimenting with a fighting system that implements martial arts in every day street fights and MMA fighting in the ring. The styles that I have formal and extensive training is in muy thai, wing chun, boxing, jujitsu. and im still very open to any other of the styles out there. And in my days fighting on the street and in the bars the best fighting system is the mixed one. Because you never know what the envoirment is going to be like. For a wing chun man all they need a a small space to operate and utilize the inside fighting. And using the man sau, wou sau going into any situation is a great offense/defense. And im not saying that wing chun guys are going to win or lose the fight. But for this martial artist using a combination on the street or in the ring keeps you open minded and ready for the fight in any situation. As life, it is always changing as should your out look on martial arts. A change is sometimes good for some. So look into it all of you na sayer's and check out the arts and actually give them a chance by trying out some techniqes or some classes and use it like it was intened to be...information. NEVER STOP LEARNING!
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 11:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rougewarrior:
So look into it all of you na sayer's and check out the arts and actually give them a chance by trying out some techniqes or some classes and use it like it was intened to be...information. NEVER STOP LEARNING![/QUOTE]
Hear Hear!
I agree
But my reason for posting is to ask you if your profile name is Rougewarrior
or you actually meant to write ROGUEwarrior.
You know Rouge is red in french?
If you meant that then i m sorry for the pointless post.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 12:14 PM
HA! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] well I picked my name after one of my favorite authors and men that I look up to RICHARD MARCINKO the Rouge Warrior a navy seal commander and now private security cosultant. He is a great and funny man that has many years of being a ROUGE WARRIOR meaning that he goes by his own rules and gets the job done. He also has a ten commandments that I live by and teach by so here they are for your enjoyment THE ROUGE WARRIORS TEN COMMANDMENTS 1.I am a war lord and the wrathful god of combat and I will always lead from the front, not from the rear. 2.I will treat you all alike--just like crap! 3.Thou shalt not do nothing that I will not do myself first, and thus will you be created warriors in my own deadly image. 4.I shall punish thy bodies because the more sweatest in training, the less bleedest in combat. 5.Indeed,if thou hurteth in thy efforts and thou suffer painful dings, thou are doing it right. 6.Thou hast not like it---thou hast just do it. 7.Thou shalt keep it simple stupid. 8.Thou shalt never assume. 9.Verily,thou art not paid for thy methods,but for thy results by which meaneth thou shalt kill thine enemy by any means available before he killeth you. 10.Thou shalt, in thy warrior's mind and soul, always remember my ultimate and final commandment: there are no rules--thou shalt win at all cost.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 12:21 PM
I still think you should check the spelling of your name.
I m pretty sure you meant to write
ROGUE warrior
not
Rouge warrior
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
I said in my opinion!!
[/QUOTE]
My apologies. It has often been my experience that MA underestimate the skills and abilities that boxing can invest in an individual and as such it is a 'pet' hate of mine. My background is in karate and boxing, and I would respectfully suggest that you revise your opinion. Go train with some boxers if you ever have the opportunity. You may well enjoy/ profit from the experience.
Alec
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 07:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rougewarrior:
HHe is a great and funny man that has many years of being a ROUGE WARRIOR meaning that he goes by his own rules and gets the job done. [/QUOTE]
Sounds like a rogue to me
Maybe he is embarassed, hence Rouge(red)warrior.
Or all the navy seal stuff causes him to be sunburned.
I believe boxers, due to the nature of their training, are very dangerous people to fight.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/22/05 10:20 PM
In theory the Wing Chun practitioner should win because he has more options. However, that isnt going to be the case. The boxers training is going to be more combative in nature and he is going to have more specialized weapons because, while he only uses a few techniques, he has had the time to go over those few techniques a tremendous amount of time and not just a little here and little there because he had five other techniques to practice that week.
As for reference, my wing chun was in the William Cheung Lineage.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 04:39 AM
No offense Chen, but it doesn't matter what lineage you studied under if the concepts are missing. You sound like a clever guy, which is why you aren't here defending to-the-death the style you were taught which you feel clearly has some major flaws that you have highlighted. Maybe Cheung is very good himself but not the best of teachers?
Wing Chun shouldn't be about learning techniques, but of highlighting concepts via a technique drill. You can never plan to apply a technique in a fight and so you can only use the training to teach yourself about what concepts you become aware of. Otherwise the "techniques" become nothing more than a different style of kata, some practised routine that you are meant to squeeze into a fight somehow
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 05:06 AM
Don't get off topic by bashing kata. Something you clearly haven't taken the time to understand.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 08:10 AM
It’s amazing to see so many people knock boxing who have probably never once even stepped into the ring. Boxing should first be viewed as a delivery system. The problem that so many typical martial artists have is that they confuse the ring sport with the delivery system.
If a person bases what they do upon the delivery system of western boxing, adding IN all of the foul tactics, knees and elbows, etc., then it becomes a very formidable method of physical combat.
Boxing isn’t complete by any means. At least they DO spar and at times, spar to knock out – which is more than I can say for many wing chun camps, where sparring is often a neglected practice.
Ultimately, it’s about what the individual can do. That said, I think it’s common sense here that the individual who prepares more athletically, will have a clear advantage over the person who doesn’t. Looking at the “typical” boxing gym versus the typical wing chun school, it becomes pretty clear which camp has the more athletic method. Of course, there are always exceptions.
-John
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 10:15 AM
I'm not bashing kata.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
That said, I think it’s common sense here that the individual who prepares more athletically, will have a clear advantage over the person who doesn’t. Looking at the “typical” boxing gym versus the typical wing chun school, it becomes pretty clear which camp has the more athletic method.[/QUOTE]
Even though being athletic is of benefit to fighting (and anyone practicing Wing Chun to any real degree will do a lot of athletic training), a real fight isn't going to last multiple rounds or use gloves.
I also don't think that "Wing Chun" and "Boxing" can be seen as separate "camps" at all. Some of the concepts in Wing Chun are used in boxing aswell, your apparent contempt from Wing Chun means that you are making many false and ignorant generalisations about it, in a similar way to the people you are criticising for their negative attitude towards boxing skills. Hypocrisy is not the best way to communicate your views
As with any approach to fighting, there will be many people out there teaching BS under the banner of "boxing", "wing chun", "jeet kune do", "karate" etc. That is no reason to view all "boxing", "wing chun" etc as rubbish as a consequence
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 03:10 PM
Even though being athletic is of benefit to fighting (and anyone practicing Wing Chun to any real degree will do a lot of athletic training), a real fight isn't going to last multiple rounds or use gloves.
If you think real fights only last a few seconds you're only half right [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 03:28 PM
i think that it's hard to say. it really depends on the people and their own understanding of fighting. boxing is very instinctive and that's good, but wing chun is very strategic and about speed. i think that if you fuse boxings mobility and instinctive nature with wing chun's movements it becomes very much like jkd and creates a adaptive, instinctive, strategic nature which would be a most effective way of fighting.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 07:06 PM
If the wing chun student has to fight using "boxing rules" , ie gloves, no kicking, grabbing, etc. he's gonna get his butt handed to him. Wing Chun has great hand techniques, but boxers train exclusively with their hands, unless you count Tyson's biting as a technique [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG].
The WC guy would have to have his hands free, no gloves, in order to effectively incorporate sticky hand principles. Plus, if he just continually kicked the crap out of the boxer's knees, that might tip the odds in his favor too.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/23/05 07:35 PM
sticking hands. you don't use sticking hands in wing chun when your fighting that's just to get you used to following someone else's movements
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/25/05 12:17 PM
This is off the subject but, for those of you in any of these forums Im sorry about the spelling of my name I must have been trying to fast and didnt check my spelling of my name. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] is there any way to correct it?
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 04:51 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by UofM Shorin Ryu:
If the wing chun student has to fight using "boxing rules" , ie gloves, no kicking, grabbing, etc. he's gonna get his butt handed to him.[/QUOTE]
Have you done wing chun. Even in the straight blast, gloves are cumbersome.
To say that a WC guy would get his but handed to him fighting boxing by a boxer is the most stupid thing I have ever heard in my entire life. It should probably go in that other thread by Jkogas about stupid people.
I play tennis, you dont play tennis.
If you play tennis with me I will whip you!
REALLY???? bloody genius!
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 09:59 AM
This is obviously a sticky subject every system has strengths and weakness. Having any play to the others strength would weaken it. And the systems really don't need defending.
Adding boxing or Wing Chun or both to your aresnal would only help you just like adding Judo or Aikido or anything thats would widen your horizon. By understanding how an Art works and its techniques will help you defend and mount an offensive against.
There are no superior Styles only superior Practictioners. Its Dedication that counts not uniforms or boxing trunks.
Personally I like people thinking, Oh, he is this style or from this system, he can't or won't do this or that. I won't argue or explain I just wait. Because Surprises!!!
Of course this is sparring or rolling. Because in the street it doesn't matter what style or what Rank or Who U are, it matters if it works, right now!!
[This message has been edited by Neko456 (edited 04-26-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 11:01 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
Have you done wing chun. Even in the straight blast, gloves are cumbersome.
To say that a WC guy would get his but handed to him fighting boxing by a boxer is the most stupid thing I have ever heard in my entire life. It should probably go in that other thread by Jkogas about stupid people.
I play tennis, you dont play tennis.
If you play tennis with me I will whip you!
REALLY???? bloody genius!
[/QUOTE]
WOW. You woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. So get back in, take a nap, and exit on the RIGHT side. Yes, it is a blatantly obvious comment, but what isn't obvious is what the fight entails. No holds barred? Gloves? Ring? Shirts? Weapons? What are the rules of the fight? Those will all make a difference as to the outcome.
I really do appreciate your smart ass comment though, shows me how much character and grace you have. Do you treat everyone this way, or are you only a jackass on internet forums?
And yes, I have done Wing Chun.
As a sidenote, shouldn't this thread be closed anyways? It's one of those VS threads that no one can really answer anyways. It's the practicioner, not the art!
[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-26-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 11:07 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by UofM Shorin Ryu:
. No holds barred? Gloves? Ring? Shirts? Weapons? What are the rules of the fight? Those will all make a difference as to the outcome.
[/QUOTE]
I m sorry if i misunderstood, but you said in a ring with gloves and boxers rules. Isnt that what you said?
You didnt give a free scenario. You specifically said boxers rules!
In that scenario, your point is moot.
It just doesnt hold!
And if you have done wing chun, then you know that you cant do the chain punches with boxers gloves, they are just to big!
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 11:39 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGr:
And if you have done wing chun, then you know that you cant do the chain punches with boxers gloves, they are just to big!
[/QUOTE]
THAT was my point. If the WC guy has to wear boxing gloves, his ability to fight will be severly hampered. If the WC guy is not allowed to kick, his ability to fight will be hampered. If he's not allowed to grab..etc.
But if he is allowed to kick, grab, eye poke, groin shots, no gloves, whatever, he will be able to use what he learned more effectively.
It depends if this fight is designed to use street fight concepts, where anything goes, or if there will be rules with a ref to watch.
But in the end it doesn't even matter, because it is skills and strengths of the practicioner, not the art that will determine the winner.
For someone who posts as much as you do, you should know that personal attacks aren't allowed on this forum. Check your attitude at the door if you want to have an intelligent conversation.
[This message has been edited by UofM Shorin Ryu (edited 04-26-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 11:51 AM
Dont be so touchy.
Ok, what you say is true, but what is your point?
We are talking about self defence, not tournaments were a WC guy enters a boxing competition.
In self defence the WC has more options, and therefore is practicing a defending style that is conceptualy superior.
You admitted that. So what is your point?
That in a boxing match a boxer would win?
We know that.
That you have something to gain from studying boxing?
I agree if that is what you were trying to say.
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 12:22 PM
Fine, a self-defense situation. Who would win, in an anything goes fight on the streets, a WC practicioner, or a boxer.
The answer: The one who is better at what he does.
I disagree with the comment that WC is better for sd than boxing conceptually, as stated many times before by various individuals on different threads, it is the artist, not the art.
To compare 2 legit arts in their abilities to teach SD is like apples and oranges, both are good.
Wc and boxing would each add some techniques to your sd game, and at the same time, both have weaknesses.
Hasn't this thread been locked yet? It's a VS thread for pete's sakes!
On a more interesting topic, Superman vs Ultraman, who would win?
Posted by: Anonymous
Re: Boxing vs. Wing Chun - 04/26/05 07:20 PM
I concur!! Now drop and give me 50 fo complaining about moderation. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]