Brazillian Jujutsu

I had the honor and pleasure to train under one of Royce Gracies Black Belts. He was a kind, gracious,guy and a hell of a fighter. he had great respect for all arts and became a student of Judo after getting his Black Belt in BJJ. He was always respectful and helpful in sharing his art. I actually met Royce and he too was a true gentleman, not judgemental at all, and truly a very interesting person to be around. Please don't judge an art by one bad apple(I'm sure you all know by now who that is). BJJ is a good art, and has its place in the martial arts. For me, Sambo was a better fit, but I have all the respect for both the Gracies and the Machado's. There is another group, Hawaiian Combat Jujutsu, that incorporates BJJ, and 'Jazz Inglesias' is a great martial artist and wonderful guy. He too is very sharing with information, and I have seen him at seminars train in other styles himself. These arts are strong and good in their own right, but great compliments to other training. Lets not take a view of an art based on a misguided student. I am sure if any of the Gracies were on this post, you would get their view, but it would be respectful, and honest, not filled with self ego, or cockyness.

Totally agree, Lou. I've never met any of the Gracies, or their senior students, but everything I have seen/read/heard about them would confirm what you're saying. I think they would be artists rather than fighters, if you see what I'm getting at.

I think Gracie Ju jutsu is an extremely effective martial art, and whilst I don't think it is the most effective fighting style extant, I do believe that it deserves much of the plaudits it gets. Being a pedantic sod, I'm not overly sure they should call it Ju jutsu, but hey - I know I'm in the minority there (probably just me!!). Either way, I would happily train in it.

Budo

Some of my collegues cross train into BJJ (which kinda sounds like an favour you might pay for).

They have nothing but a high regard for the style.

These are guys who have extensive MA knowledge so I trust thier judgement.

Personally what I know about the Gracies and their style, quite frankly is bugger all. Do tell me more.....

Budo.

That's great! The Gracie's are great people indeed, although they are often lambasted and "smack-talked" about all the time...mostly from "traditionalists" and others not into "sportive" training (read, training against non-compliant partners/opponents?

Most "sport" guys have been trashed this way for years, having such things said as, "What you do is real good...for the ring, but in the 'street' I'd win because what I do is not for SPORT". I've seen this so often I could puke.

The irony that is missed is, the "sport" guys are the one's doing all the FIGHTING...yet they're going to lose a fight to someone who rarely does anything more contact oriented than POINT sparring. It's completely ridiculous, yet it persists. You read about that very thing HERE and to be honest, it's a very tired cliche.

Yes, the Gracies are wonderful people and have done great things for the martial arts, I too, agree.

-John

Kogas one final time....if you are tired with our mantra and cliche's leave and don't annoy us anymore. we are obviously not good company so why don't you just leave if your not happy. My wife says company is like fish, they both start to smell bad after 3 days. Your time is up!!!!

You'd love me to wouldn't you? You'd love nothing better.

Your's is the company that NEEDS an antagonistic voice. Otherwise, the place becomes nothing but a circle jerk!

-John

Jeez...an' just when I thought this was going to lead to some kinda group hug....

C'mon Lou, it's good to keep an open mind.

After all you don't have to agree or make a reply to something that annoys you...

Budo.

In all honesty, my earlier post on this thread wasn't an attempt at trolling, only to explain some cold hard facts about the attitudes which tend to prevail among MANY (certainly not all) traditional martial artists.

THEN, I was told that I could leave if I was tired of "their" mantras and cliches. I was speaking of things of which I have direct experience. This wasn't tolerated by a certain someone however.

-John

why can't you guys just keep your anger to yourselves. You woudl think that as people become older they would have better self control than a sixteen year old (that sixteen year old being me)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikelw:
why can't you guys just keep your anger to yourselves. You woudl think that as people become older they would have better self control than a sixteen year old (that sixteen year old being me)[/QUOTE]Respect Your elders. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Ever notice the Elder's that tell you to respect them are the ones doing the least to earn it? Usually when they are doing something wrong? And you call them on it?
Hehehehe
John, I could write a bot to do what you do. At random intervals, it would post:
Yeah, but you guys are wussies cause you don't go full contact! My training hall is tough! Traditional arts are weak like Grandma!
The only reason I point this out is that, when you slip out of character, you actually have some interesting points to make. More of that, please?

Hey....I never said I was perfect, LOL!

It should also be noted that I am not posturing when I mention my gym/training hall. I'm simply stating facts. I think that many times I'm just taken the wrong way.

This forum should be about training. As such, I've "tried" my damnedest to talk about what I have discovered to be TRUE about training, and it's relation to fighting. Everytime I mention something that has to do with good training methods, I get shot down. Not that it bothers me particularly. The message has to be delivered for those who want more "reality" (what "IS" fighting) within their training.

This has caused some disagreement. The two opposing groups are viewed by the sport guys like this: There are those who "pretend" to fight in training, and those who DO fight in training.

All I have said since coming onto this forum is, you must be willing to expose yourself to the "what is" when training rather than the "what SHOULD be". Theory is the "what should be". As well all know, things don't often go as planned in the real world. Any military group across the globe understands that. The only TRUE way to know what is going to work in battle is to actually have battle.

The "battle" in this case, is sportive training. However, not just ANY sportive training, but VALE TUDO training. It doesn't have to be brutal! It just has to include all ranges. In other words, you allow for takedowns, etc. when sparring.

That's it. That is my message and HAS been. Not that I feel that vale tudo sparring is SOLE type of training that one must do! It's important to do some scenario training as well (sucker punch drills, mass attack, weapons, etc). However, the lions share of one's time in training should be spent sparring so as to learn how to apply the fundamentals DURING the "what is" of combat.

Of course, that's just my opinion based on experience, both within the realm of sport AND street fighting.

If you want to learn an "art", well fine...learn an art. If you want to be able to "fight" on the other hand....well, you gotta fight to LEARN HOW to fight. It's really just common sense.

Is there the possibility of spiritual development within the more combat "sport" oriented training? Of course, but it's going to take a thread of it's own to describe (I could go into the realm of "flow" and, being in the "zone", but it's just going to take too long right now).

Good training!

-John

Well said.

That's an excellent post, John. My biggest issue with what you say is that you talk in terms of "truth" as if you and yours are the only ones who really know what that is. I find that a ludicrous position to adopt.

We all have our own idea of what is real, and it is plainly obvious that you and I disagree about that. But we established that a long time ago, we don't need to keep returning to the same debate in every post.

Most of us here have trained for a long time and we wont be converted to your training by a few posts, so perhaps it is time to leave that debate and join a few others instead?

I've been trying a different approach guys. The thing is that I'm often baited. People who accuse me of being a certain way, end up doing exactly the same things to me, even when I haven't been particularly rude or obnoxious.

And sometimes, I'm just a smartass. I understand that, but like I said, I'm trying...

-John

Baited is an interesting term. In wrestling, I leave my left leg forward and seemingly exposed. And I have trained like a maniac to protect that leg from that position. See, by baiting that leg, I control how you will attack, making you predictable. Refuse to be baited. Do what YOU decide, not what your opponent decides.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
I've been trying a different approach guys. The thing is that I'm often baited. People who accuse me of being a certain way, end up doing exactly the same things to me, even when I haven't been particularly rude or obnoxious.

And sometimes, I'm just a smartass. I understand that, but like I said, I'm trying...

-John[/QUOTE]If You were trying, you would be more civil,& More open minded.But Thats not going to happen, anytime soon.



[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 02-25-2003).]

Nice try of baiting there kid... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

-John