The one punch kill - potential concern

Things appear to have ground to a halt on the forum so ill try and kick start it.

This issue is actualy a real concern for me and should be for anyone serious martial artist / self defence practicioner. The question to be posed, is simply this: In certain circumstances are you inviting trouble by utilising a full power head technique. It is not uncommon to hear of some unfortunate being killed outright with a single blow to the head. Certainly they may have been anatomicaly predisposed towards a weakness of have some previous unknown of injury. Neither of these factors will assist you in a court of law if your actions are deemed to excede what was reasonable. Here we get to the gist of the matter. In life and death circumstances / multiple attackers/ weapons etc then sure anything goes and the opponent takes whats comming. What about the opponent who isn't a massive threat per se but perhaps elaborate dismissive techniques (locking, sweeps etc) are not suitable for some reason or another. Is it worth the risk of crashing one into the head of a potentialy untrained, unfit and even inhibriated opponent on the basis that your power and accuracy could prove fatal. Whats the view out there - something to consider or just hit em as hard as you can? - thought?

Regds and good training

Along these lines, a couple of news stories I saw recently. In Germany, two men got into an arguement about a parking space, which turned into a fight. Appearently, one of the men was a kickboxer and he kicked the other in the head. The man later died from complications.
Also, a girl just recently died when being struck in the head at a hockey game by a puck. How much does a puck weigh? Six ounces?

This is a tough issue. Although it's unlikely that someone would die from a single blow to the head, it's obviously not impossible. However, punching someone in the nose is a good way of making them rethink their position and attitude. Perhaps this afternoon, I'll hunt around for some medical data on headblows and such, to see how much of a blow it takes. I have punched people in the head in fights (oddly, that was before I started MA, and have the power I have now), and, if attacked, would probably do it again.

On a different but related point, it must be remembered that often, the serious head injury that is sustained after being punched in the head is from the head hitting a hard object such as the pavement. The right or left cross is particularly effective at dropping an opponent like a felled tree to the other side relative to the direction of punch. If you're good enough you can utilise an overhand right or left , driving down through the jawbone which can often make them virtualy sit down, if knockout is achieved and lesson the prospect of their head cracking into something hard. - Just a thought

One thing that has always confused me is who hits first? My older brother, a huge drinker says that always get hit first and hard so you bleed and you have proof and witnesses who seen who threw the first punch, then you can never be sued for and attack. Is that right? i don't want too be hit all together... i want too go out for a quiet drink with friends and not have too get hit and have a broken nose or jaw just so i can fight back.

I don't know, its weird.

Jeniko

Jeniko...your brother lives dangerously!

Avoid fights...or crush your opponent totally in that situation; be that with a choke to unconsciouness, a KO, death or fingerlock. I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six....or being sponge bathed by nurses.

Well in fairness he did say his brother was a drinker lol. The truth is he's probably so hammered that he couldn't avoid the first punch if he wanted too, hense the convenient story. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regds

I think that if you can't find another reason to obstain from fighting as a martial artist (which would already be a sad case for the poor fool), this is a great reason to rethink striking someone without just cause ("just cause" is always open for debate as well, but I see very closely along the lines of the philosophy taught in "Living the Martial Way," a great book for those who haven't read it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] ). At any rate, I know that in my training, while we didn't necissarily learn pressure points, we where taught to aim for weak spots (i.e., throat, solar plexus, etc.). I'm sure most other martial artists where taught somewhat along the same lines. This becomes a frightening prospect when thought about in terms of true application, for if I were put in a situation that I had to defend myself, instinct would kick in and the odds of maiming/killing someone in that first instinctive blow would be fairly high. I don't know about you, but I sure don't want that kind of weight on my shoulders.

If people can die from being hit in the head what do u do so that you can still protect yourself but without killing your opponent.

by the way did P Carney get that medical info on it?

[QUOTE]What about the opponent who isn't a massive threat per se but perhaps elaborate dismissive techniques (locking, sweeps etc) are not suitable for some reason or another. Is it worth the risk of crashing one into the head of a potentialy untrained, unfit and even inhibriated opponent on the basis that your power and accuracy could prove fatal. [/QUOTE]

First off you should avoid these sorts of situations which lets face are most likely to occur on Friday/Saturday night. Secondly one of my old instructors had an interesting take on this: you don't know why someone is behaving like that, maybe their wife left them etc and now your going to add some serious injuries to their problems. If you've had time to suss out their not up to much you can probably tailor your response.

That said...

I think you have to get it over ASAP as the longer your trading blows the greater chance of serious injury to you or the attacker, also the luxury of refraining from extreme force may disappear.

It is better all round the faster the violence is over so I would try to use something that stopped them as fast as possible while avoiding the risk of injury as far as possible:

The techniques have to be things that don't require massive amounts of force.

A good body shot (solar plexis) or a back fist/slap on the nose, shin kicks to the thighs etc if all else fails go for a classic KO to the jaw as this is unlikely to really do much lasting damage.

Be prepared to catch them as they fall. I once KO'd someone at a grading that didn't really do much damage, however the floor did.

I suppose the point is you should be able to stop the sort of person you've described wanting to fight without really hurting them.

Jim has a good point in that post of his...open hand techniques. Nothing has ever stopped me as quickly as a smack to the nose or an open-handed backfist to the nose/mouth area. We all know the average person doesn't like getting hit in the face and instinctively pulls away. I do it to my pets (dogs in this case, cats in my ex-gfs) all the time (no! Not hitting them! :P) but try blowing in their faces. They have a natural instinct to pull away and rub their faces checking for "damage" before coming back for more. Its an unsettling sensation.

Another point. Personally, if I thought I were in trouble, the LAST thing I'd do is punch to the head...not so much because I'm worried about their well-being, but because no matter how trained I am, I KNOW a small mistake is going to mean a shattered hand, wrist or worse. That's one BIG bone on our shoulders...and damn hard, even on the jaw! Unless you're really sure about that hit, I wouldn't risk it. There are far more vulnerable parts of the body I'd go for such as the stomach/ribs, thighs, shins, groin, feet, knees.

In short, headhunting is good in sparring/ring fighting because you're LOOKING for the knockout. But in REAL fighting, it's probably not a great option.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

I like "Joes" answer, about the Nurses. Just kidding but my Sensei told me the same thing, better to be judged by 12 than carried by six. I also like the open hand strikes, like heel palms to chin, nose jaw etc. However my greatest victory would be to have the person leave for fear he was barking up the wrong tree. The best technique is.........No technique at all, hopefully avoid the fight, but make your point! If a confrontation does occur, I try to see the level of the confrontation, and then take the situation in stages, maybe embarrass to control, contol to hurt, hurt to injure etc. Unless it's a life or death situation, I would refrain from 1 punch 1 kill mentality, and try to maybe control the situation. Another thought is to try to do some damage that is not so easily seen in court, like say a broken rib, so when he breathes he remembers you, but doesn't look like his face has been put through a meet grinder.

If the best target on the head is the nose then how easy is it for the nose bone to brake and stab your brain and can this happen with a straight punch?

SenseiLou has a good point try intimidation.

Refering to my previous mail:

Regarding Jaw strikes(and to the head in general) in this case I am not advocating a full power blow as I don't think for the scenario painted its neccessary. One could also add the side of the neck to the target list as long as the blow is relatively light as the effect will be the same as a strike ot the jaw.

I have knocked people out in kick boxing sparring a few times and accidentaly in Karate competitions as well. Generaly it is suprising how little force is required if the blow is well placed and timed. Its very easy to either get someone to a standing knock out or a full knock out especialy if they are inexperienced as they will not have learned to get through that swimming sensation of a blow to the head gives you.

Jim

roundhouser,

It doesn't happen like that. Look at a skeleton. Do you see a nose-bone?

It's mainly cartilage and soft tissue. It can't "stab up into the brain"...apparently it's possible to do some damage, but HIGHLY unlikely.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:
SenseiLou has a good point try intimidation.

Refering to my previous mail:

Regarding Jaw strikes(and to the head in general) in this case I am not advocating a full power blow as I don't think for the scenario painted its neccessary. One could also add the side of the neck to the target list as long as the blow is relatively light as the effect will be the same as a strike ot the jaw.

I have knocked people out in kick boxing sparring a few times and accidentaly in Karate competitions as well. Generaly it is suprising how little force is required if the blow is well placed and timed. Its very easy to either get someone to a standing knock out or a full knock out especialy if they are inexperienced as they will not have learned to get through that swimming sensation of a blow to the head gives you.

Jim[/QUOTE]But Jim,I'd rather strike the knee,Or the groin,Maybe even the thigh,Or the arch of the foot. BUt I'd avoid the head,Cuz we who are in the M/as,hav more power than the average person.But thats just my opinion. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]I Hav a question,Is'nt the 1 punch kill a phylosophy of shotokan?

Y'know, I've always been taught that's part of all karate. But I'm not so sure of that anymore...seems kind of a blanket-statement to say that. Especially when all karate traces back to China/Kung Fu...decidedly not the same mentality.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

This 1 punch 1 kill thing really tickles me. I also heard it as a Shotokan concept, but then was told it's a Karate Concept. I know of an Okinawan style(I won't say which one) that has a tendency to be rather soft, and one of their students told me her Sensei said they were a 1 punch 1 kill art. her punches were technically bad, no transmission of power, no power no nothing. She being of a slight nature I tried to explain her need to be technically correct, because of the mass she was giving away. Yet she believed she could stop an attacker with 1 punch. She was a brown belt so we are not talking a beginner, and my 12 year old students punch harder. Not only could she not even move me with her best shot, she hurt her hand when she hit me. Point of this is, the mentality of the one punch -one kill maybe doing some people an injustice.

I think in Shotokan its more emphassised but more in the sense trying to train you to deliver 100% committed blows correctly rather than anything else.

Isshinryukid:
No argument a broken knee would stop them however I would avoid the knee for this sort of person purely because as Mr V discribed they are not a serious threat, so damaging them permenantly seems a bit overkill. A nasty scrape/stamp down the front of the shin would be good though [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

But 100% on every technique isn't necessarily good either. That mentality DEFINITELY isn't good in the ring...and even on the street, I'd rather fight smart than fight with 100% spirit...you'll be exhausted within a minute, maybe 2 if you have good cardio! LOL!

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

Crimson makes an interesting point. 100%, 100% of the time, and unless you are conditioned you mayhave a stamina problem. Something else as well, you need to slow down and check if you are as technically correct at 100% as you are at say half power. Our technique needs to be sharp, and our basics need to be smooth. Sometimes we need to slow down and check on our technical ability. I saw a student kicking a heavy bag as hard as he could, and was rattling the bag. I noticed his kick was a bit funky but didn't say anything. when Sensei saw the student kick he went by and said try it now and swung the bag at the student, and when he kicked as hard as he could, he hyperextended his knee. His techniqe wasn't ready for full power, he nedded better technical kicks. He found this out with a 3 week stint on crutches. Good solid basics, before 100% speed and 100% power

If you have seen Jyu-Ippon semi free kumite in a good Shotokan Dojo you will know what I mean about 'the one hit one kill' thing being emphassised.

Jyu - Ippon in Shotokan is much more aggressive and more like dueling than what I have seen in other styles.

I don't think endurance is a great consideration in most self defence situations as it is not like a ring fight there is little or no 'sussing your oponent out'.

Jim,

True...I've been told many times ring fighting is more "physically demanding" than a streetfight.

Senseilou,

Although I understand the point of the lesson...3 weeks on crutches? It's "training" and "lessons" like that that I prefer to avoid. If you are taught correctly from the start, minor tweaking shouldn't require such drama. In my opinion.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

Have any of you been involved in street fights?

Quickly touching on the cardio issue, a ring fight is massively easier to deal with on a CV level. You know that you are participating in a sporting event with rules, a referee and a corner to protect you. On the street you don't have this - you may well be fighting for your life, the adrenaline dump this causes will sap your energy faster than anything in the gym, the dojo or the mat/ring/cage.

Add to this the fact that in the ring you are more often than not fighting a trainied, controlled opponent whose actions you can predict (to a degree) based on their style. On the street you are dealing with punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, biting, gouging, scratching, spitting, swearing, screaming, multiple attackers, weapons, concrete, glass..... very different. Much more scary.

When you are suffering an adrenaline dump you lose alot of your fine motor control (its amazing how many MA techniques this affects), you will possibly freeze up and you will definitely be stuck to remember a lot of your training. Landing that perfect killer punch is very rare in this situation.

If someone is trying to stomp you into the floor then pulling punches is going to land you in hospital. People take a hell of a lot of damage and I know no martial artist in the world who can throw a guaranteed killing punch.

Scrapes down the shin, pulled punches and blowing in peoples faces will not stop anyone on the street. Hold a no holds barred seesion at your gym and find out how much punishment people can take and still keep coming. If the intent is strong enough they are going to walk straight through your best shots, take the damage and keep on coming.

On the street you hit first (when you think you can no longer verbally control or escape a situation), hit hard and keep hitting until the threat is removed. This will very very rarely take one shot.

One punch, one kill is a myth. Don't hide behind it, test your training, test yourselves but don't believe the myth blindly.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:
If you have seen Jyu-Ippon semi free kumite in a good Shotokan Dojo you will know what I mean about 'the one hit one kill' thing being emphassised.

Jyu - Ippon in Shotokan is much more aggressive and more like dueling than what I have seen in other styles.

I don't think endurance is a great consideration in most self defence situations as it is not like a ring fight there is little or no 'sussing your oponent out'.[/QUOTE]

I trained in Shotokan and understand the concept within Jyu-ippon, especially when training with particularly good karate-ka, it appears that the initiating attack is "full on" (within training), and thus the resultant defense is of a similar type.

It is the precursor to kumite, a training aid.

Bearing this in mind, the "one strike kill" is an ethos, not necassarily about giving 100%, but ensuring you get the very most out of a technique in a given situation.

This "one strike kill" ethos is often confused. Those who take it literally have not understood the paradox of the MA. The respect has gone.

As far as street fighting it is as Kaliphil said, "I know no martial artist in the world who can throw a guaranteed killing punch." We aim to survive an attack, not kill our attacker, this would make us just as pathetic as them. (if you can add ethics to street combat?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])

Budo.

I have heard two stories of one punch kills. The first
A man punches another so hard from the side, fist to side of jaw. Unforunatly the victim didn't see the sucker punch coming and the punch ended up breaking the man's neck! This happened in a prison in Ohio.
the second
A man punches another and knocks him unconsious. As the victim falls to the ground he hits his head on a porcelin toilet and it killed him.

thirdly
A man who is Manic Depressive thinks that a fellow buddy his hitting on his girlfriend. So he just out of the blue punches the man so hard that the other mans eye ball popped out.
The Manic Depressive grabs the mans around the head and quickly puts the eye back in, but the man said all he could see was white in that eye. He wouldn't tell the cops who hit him, when they took him to ER.

I don't think it's a good idea to buy into the "one punch kill" mentality. That one isn't good for your health in the long run...


-John

Up here in SD, a man was just recently sentanced to 8 years in jail. He hit another man outside a bar in the face, knocking the man out, but the man hit his head on the ground and died. I say it is a concern.

That was a TWO hit kill then wasn't it? LOL

The point being, it wasn't actually the PUNCH itself that killed the man, but the fall.

If I hit and man and he fell unconscious in a roadway and was then run over, the punch was only indirectly involved in the killing. We're just talking about one hit and then an immediate kill (I suppose). Hell, one punch knockouts are rare when both parties are in reasonable condition!

-John

Legally the fact that a person dies as a result of hitting his head on the road or you cracking his skull on account of your punch hitting a congenitively weak area (and him subsequently dying) are one and the same. Most likely you'd be defending yourself from a manslaughter charge. Don't get me wrong i believe its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 but the question is still legitimate. Full knockouts may be rare but even a partial or momentary loss of conciousness can lead to a person smahing their head on something hard. Once again i must point out that there is always the inherent danger that a full force head shot delivered by a trained individual to a person who is highly inhebriated, possibly getting on in years or simply recovering from an illness could be fatal. The thrust of my post was really to concider whether it is worth utilising high power head strikes in situations that cannot be considered life threatening. For example, in a social gathering, someone who is highly drunk, rude and aggressive needs to be dealt with. Certainly if you are attacked a head shot might solve the problem, but is it worth it? Most of us naturaly train the majority of hand techniques to strike the vulnerable areas from the neck up. Other than the odd solar plexis shot I would suggest that body shots come a poor second in peoples training. I simply wish to moot the point that body shots can be a handy weapon in your arsenal becuase they can cause a knockdown /incapacitation without targeting the vulnerable brain /eyes/throat area.
Regds
Mr V

2 days ago i was playing football and then the guy that takled obviously didnt like me takling him so he punched me five times in the head and the first punch KOed me for a few seconds and gave me brief amnesia but wen i woke up he was still punchin me and i olny got mild concussion and he punched me in the back of the head the nose the cheek and the side ofmy head twice and it wasnt just weak hits they were full on so i thought that my little experince might be of some helpfulness to you in the way of how hard you need to be hit for somethin bad to happen.
roundhouser.

I certainly take your point but thankfully you don't have a previously unknown congential condition that led to serious damage or death. Some other people out there do and they don't even know it. One hard punch and they are dead. Bad for them certainly but potentialy also bad for someone who was merely defending themselves and hit them.

Regds
Mr V

point taken

you what to make it simple and easy to understand,hitting your opponents body regardless of which target is not a joke,every strike is fatal and effective it only depends on your body momentum..understand your body mechanism your weakness and your limitations..hope you understand what im trying to point out..good luck!

if you get hit in the sternum or anywhere there is BONE, its gonna hurt really, really bad (unless you do iron shirt or something liek it). Don't go gettin punched in the kidneys either. Or the ribs. The body is a good target unless you just go for the abdominal section where all the muscles are.

But gettin hit in the head is much more disorienting. It can also be more painful, because think about it....who conditions their head??? (besides a boxer or martial artist...)

The head is too hard. Why not go for soft tissue areas. One punch kill? The throat.
You want to end a fight before it begins? A blade edge strike to the side of the neck right below the jaw. You will daze or ko your opponent.

err..
in the "heat" of the moment can you only hit and aggressor "a little" enough to stop them?
Or will it be " tally ho chaps" and full power to the chin?
If you dont hit full power .will it stop them?

horrible legal complications i agree.

But a very famous quote springs to mind...
" better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"

As a yellow belt in any martial art, a jury will consider you an expert (i have been there ) not much fun

While I agree that about the need to defend oneself, most people that you will run into will not be looking to cream you. Mostly, a good self-defense technique can be done that will leave an attacker totally in your power. For instance, parrying a punch aside, slipping an arm under theirs, and sliding behind for a choke hold. Then you can lean them backwards onto the ground when safe. Just a thought.

When I fought two people over the issue over freedom many years ago, I used minimum force and did use the carotid sinus strike. The same strike at a different artery with rings of bone around it could have killed him ,I would understand. The point is that in the coming days he wanted to be my friend and never caused any more problems. Certainly there are more people like him that would start a fight by being a bully. Certainly, as I wasn't being hit at all, he did run away to get a knife. The point is no one got hurt and I didn't ruin my future. By the way the only injury I had was my elbow when I hit my funny bone on the head of the guy behind me. It was then that I told the guy behind me to let go or I would have to hurt him. I was prepared to do the groin grab if he didn't let go. It was then I jogged away and went to the police.