Defending others

Most, if not all, of these posts are concerned with SELF defense.

How do you defend others?? Would you defend others??

My first teaser.....

Whilst walking through town/the local mall, your attention is drawn to a man and woman arguing. This rapidly degenerates into physical violence.....

What do you do??

Well judderman, we really are getting deep here aren't we lol!
This is as much an ethical question as a practical issue of combat. The law in the UK and in most countries of the world, gives you the same or similar rights to defend others as it does to defend yourself. Further more, you are often (in some jurisdictions) entitled to use reasonable force in the provention of crime and in the defence of property. However, the question really must be, harsh as it sounds, if the individual in question isn't a member of your family or a friend of yours, then is it really worth getting envolved? Surely, going looking for other people's trouble is contrary to the most basic rule of self defence - dont be there! If you have a statutory duty to act, as an officer of the law or some other legaly interested party then fine, so be it, but why bring possible violence and/or litigation upon yourself for no reason, over what (in your example) is a "domestic" that's turned nasty. Ok so I may sound unduly cynical and callous, but lets face it, our job is not to play "superman" just because we train in the martial arts. At the end of the day, its a personal matter and personaly I couldn't just walk past someone being raped down an alley or an elderly gentleman being beaten up for a few pounds without intervening. However as far as the couple having a fight outside a bar or some other dispute of that nature, then frankly they can get on with it, its not my business.
Regds and good training

Good topic. Let me ask this- would you help your friend in a fight, even if he caused it (not so much throw the first punch, but definatly stirred up trouble). I ask because this almost happened this weekend. My friend got in a arguement with a bouncer when the guy berated him for being loud and not acting his age (in a loud, crowded bar!). If it had come to blows (unlikely, as we would of left first), I'd have no doubts about stepping up next to my friend, even if he was partly responsible for it. there were about five bouncers there and three guys in my party. I guess my point is, I would put friendship above 'who was right' in this case. There are limits to this, of course, if my friend had started a fight with an 'innocent', I'd be the first to restrain him.

I agree that firstly it is a moral/ethical question for the individual.

However, let us just assume that for some reason the 'Good Samaritan' in you gets annoyed and you do intervene.

How do you approach the situation?

Budo.

that's really hard to answer without knowing the specific details of the situation. Where in teh mall? Are we on the second floor near an overlook to the first floor? Near staircases? Near a fountain? Near that annoying guy in a gumby suit trying to sell silly putty in front of Kay Bee? Who's in the area? Is anyone else watching the fight. Do any of them look as though they know one or both of them and if so do they look as though they might join in if someone intervenes? Is a child involved that could get hurt if you start a brawl? Do you see any evidence of weapons? What is the surface of the floor? Where are you in relation to the attacker - -- will he see you approach?

All these questions must be asked and answered instantly when you see a situation beginning to develop. If you can't answer them satisfactorilly, you're better off staying put because you'll probably just get your head bashed in and then the guy will go back to beating his girl.

Yell at the guy. Say "hey, I'm calling the f-ing cops!"
But unless its your mama or your sister, leave it alone. I've met women who get off on how manly their guy is, so they like to watch him kick other guys asses when he's not kicking hers. Sick.
Let's change the scenario, though. You're at a party, and some hulk grabs your buddy/girlfriend. Do you
A. talk him down?
B. Take him down?

You have to tread very carefully here, it is so easy to get it totally wrong. I was once awoken to the noise of an argument outside my house. The woman acroos the road appeared to be struggling with a man I had never seen. I went out and seperated them and asked her if she was OK. Her husband then appeared and said it was OK and told the man to F@#k off. I went back to bed and forgot about it. I found out the next day she was in hospital because the husband had severly beaten her. The strange man she was struggling with was her brother who was trying to persuade her to get the children and stay with him and his wife.
On the other hand, I, like Mr V could not just walk past someone in real danger and there is not usually much time to think, only react. Probably the best thing to do if you can is seperate them and call the police.
Sharon

I have used similar to Jamoni.

Outside the Pub (funny how alcohol plays such a big part in these things [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]) and some guys were fighting. I don't have much problem with this, but when the gut goes to the ground and two others are busily wading into an defenceless person, I get a little righteous.

So at the top of my particularly loud voice I shouted "OI!! F*@cking Leave it!"

This worked a treat, they stopped.

Then looked at me....

oops.

They left him and walked off.

But the hardest part was keeping control of my otherhalf who had also become annoyed and wanted a piece!!! Be warned all those who take women for granted!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo.

I would give my life to protect anyone who needed it. Most people would not do this for me but I do it less for them and more for Justice,God,and the greater good.

If someone grabbed a friend of mine at a party i would not hesitate a second to take him down.

if it is a serious situation in public try a less agressive aproach but if its in private take him out. in any serious situation public or private u should take him out.
my sifu always say its strait to the point no muking around. and he ends by sayin because it has to be that way. meaning dont punch once and stop coz he'l get up more angry and smack u all over the place. but i agree if its not ur problem walk away but if its a serious problem try and help.

What often happens with the above scenario (man/woman arguing) is that when you try to intervene, you then have BOTH people pissed off at you. Then it becomes a multiple attacker situation.

Weird dynamics here, but true oftentimes. That is a sticky subject. One is probably better off just keepinga watchful eye on things from afar and calling the cops.

-John

Legal liability in different states of USA have different statutary restrictions. Bottom line though, you need to ask yourself if you get into trouble physically or legally would it be worth the price you may pay . Note technique of grab arm and it's shoulder from rear and side edge kick to back of knee to drop and control assaillant

isnt one of the moral codes to do rightgeuos with out second thought

John raised a good point, when you intervene in a domestic you really run the risk of both parties turning on you. There have been numerous times that I have tried to help out when a man has got into an arguement with his partner, the man sees you as a threat and the women usually backs up her man and tells you its none of your business.

isnt it funny how if a girl and her boyfriend get into a fist throwing fight and he hits her,then you knock the shit out of him that she says stop it your hurting him

Yeah I've Been there. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

bitch slap she falls


hey buddy bam


stop your hurting him

I think we as martial artists have a duty to help people when the situation presents itself. So longas it isn't a mutual disagreement and both people WANT to fight, then let them have it out. But im talking like somone getting mugged, etc, anything involving an innocent.

We have the skills to defend ourselves, but we also have the duty to defend others when we see fit.

Call the cops first. Then if the fight thing gets bad help. Try to hold off the beat down as long as you can. Unless you know the person as a freind. The haul off and wail the guy, if hulk man grabs your freind make sure it isn't as a joke or somehting though, it could wind up to be a pretty embarassing situation.

Of course, a good evaluation is appropraite for any situation like this (or any situation you ever encounter, in general)

I feel I have to respond to this one as it is my JOB to protect someone. I am a bailiff
and part of my job is Courtroom security.
now in court if someone gets out of hand I'll press the alarm before i act then move to restrain the person(s) causing the problem
however on the street i would have to reccomend calling the police as that's thier job, but stick around and act as a witness to the confrontation(you may be the one who gets the aggressor convicted)if the danger is imminante then you should act to prevent injury, however this does not give someone the "legal right" to "Whoop As@!" you should try to restrain the aggressor. if that's not possible(multipal assailants, weapon involved) then call the police and render first aid if nessesary, but never sacrifice your personal safety for another!
it will get you hurt and serve no one.
besides that's the cops job.I know this isn't always the most popular opinion, but, you will remain uninjured and out of jail.

I think its a tough call, I guess its a question of what you can live with.

The other day myself and a few mates found a bunch of guy kicking the s$%t out of some other guy who was on the floor so we intervened to stop them by pulling them off, it was a bit risky and we could only do it as we were all trained enough to deal with them if it got rough..... Which it did.

On my own I would have just called the police but they would not have arrived until it was too late.

well done. Good evaluation of the situation. Hope that other guy got out okay.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NSDFRand:
isnt one of the moral codes to do rightgeuos with out second thought[/QUOTE]

sure but we should also follow the moral code "first do no harm." I'd hate to involve myself in a dispute only to make it much worse.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shadowfax:
sure but we should also follow the moral code "first do no harm." I'd hate to involve myself in a dispute only to make it much worse.

[/QUOTE]I Would'nt stand by & become a spectator. PS Helping others who can not defend themselves,is being moral. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

agreed completely, karate dude

The only reason my freinds and I jumped in was the fact that the guy was on the floor these idiots where literally kicking the c%&p out of him. If we had not stepped in there was a good chance that they would have seriously injured/killed him. That may sound dramatic but it happens all the time.

To be honest if was 1 on 1 we would probably have left them to it.

Heck i might have started taking bets with my buddies, if it had been me.

I found this to be an interesting topic as I wrestle with it every day. I am a teacher in a New York City High School and the number of dangerous physical altercations between students is alarmingly high. Contractually, we are not supposed to break up fights. (If we are inured while separating students we will not be supported by our union.) That is the job of the security guards that roam our halls. Unfortunately, kids can begin banging each others heads off of the concrete floors long before security arrives. I have long wished that my dojo would offer help in how to "defend others" along with its lessons on how to defend myself. Of course, this gets hairy just based on the idea of a teacher putting his hands on a student, even if it is to prevent that student from hurting himself or others.

just a thought, but you know some dojos and arts have methods of controlling someone who's trying to get past you.

ex. one of the martial arts i take is jujitsu. my instructor had me just get by him, as if trying to attack someone else, using any methods necessary. he used many techniques that kept me back, and made me think twice before trying again, without him ever actually harming me. this is worth considering.

and if they don't stop, then you can use other methods, i'm just mentionong this for anyone interested.

I try and live a simple life, but every now and then you get a dirty curve like this, You have to intervene in some shape or form. I wouldn't ask the lady if she was ok without saying something to the guy, this would come of very offensive since she's his chic and it's their problem. If at all possible to devert his slapfest with her into a toungetussle with you is recommended. I have seen my own Aunt being abused right in my face, so it's not "if" but "how". Secondly, if the woman verbally asked for assistance or she complies with your offer to help, I'm hoping if it results in the police showing up that this takes the heat off you for dusting his ass off. Mr. V, as a lawyer you can validate or correct me on this I'm hoping.

the exception

One of the girls from our dojo got beaten up the other day in the main street of the city by 5 [yes FIVE!] much bigger Polynesian teenagers from another very rough school.

She is a very pretty slightly built part Chinese/European girl from a very respectable family and goes to a very good college.

The others wanted money and her earrings. She wouldn't give them anything.

No-one helped her as she was held down on the ground and kicked... men and women just ignored what was going on and walked past her.

She put up quite a fight and eventually they ran off but not before ripping out some of her hair and trying to remove some of her earrings forceably...

It sucks that no-one helped her [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

Im a highly aggressive individual for the most part and if I was ever to see someone getting jumped or a woman getting beat there isnt a question in my mind as to what I would do. Most of us arent police officers or military but I think as Maist we have an obligation to protect the innocent until said authorities take it out of our hands or the situation is nullified.

One day while apprehending a shoplifter, I wound up sitting on his head-pinning him to the floor in the crowded mall area. I then feel a tap on my shoulder. Whip my head around, guy is standing there, he asks me"what's going on?" I reply,"shoplifter, he was trying to get away. If you want to wait a couple minutes I'll show you some I.D.." He shrugs and replies,"That's alright then."

Never get involved in a situation you do not understand. Evaluate, then do minimum necessary to control situation,ie. call police,yell at them your calling police,etc.
DO NOT go charging in, rarely is something exactly what it appears to be when you walk into it in the middle.