You are walking down the street and........
Posted by: judderman
You are walking down the street and........ - 08/14/01 05:17 PM
....someone stops you to ask the time.
As you look back up to give your answer, you are grabbed by the lapel.
It looks like you are about to be punched in the face.
What do you do next???
(Further posts under this topic will have a number. This one is Q#1)
[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 08-15-2001).]
[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 08-15-2001).]
Posted by: KoshoBob
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 08:39 AM
Plenty of options:
1. head butt, knee/kick to the groin
2. elbow strike (vertical/horizontal)
3. Step thru the grabbing arm with a stike and simultanious strike to the throat with opposite hand, could be turned into a throw
4. If they are pushing you with the grab, go for a hip throw
Posted by: Kuromatsu
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 09:33 AM
The guy probably has a knife (he wouldn't grab you if he had a gun) so you have to go for the immediate incapacitation - fingers to the eyes (he will let go of you), or one of KoshoBob's suggestions, a good kick to the groin and run!
If he is so stupid as to grap your lapel, you also have the opportunity to use this easiest of handles to take him down and pin him - turn off of the line, while trapping his hand and bringin his elbow up-around-and down to pin his arm and therefore his body to the ground while you pound him and/or call for help - unless you are then having to evade his buddies lurking in the shadows. Getting the hell out of there is probably the best course of action.
Kind regards,
Andy
Posted by: MrVigerous
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 01:29 PM
Hi judderman.
Well the options are pretty endless in this scenario. Head-butt or knee to the groin might be difficult if the attacker has locked his arm (or indeed has long arms). Kick to groin/stomach/knee etc may be feasible but really we are beyond kicking range here and into mid/close range. So, setting aside a direct linear attack due to concerns over his locked/long arms what is left? Firstly id have to consider an imoblisation followed by strike, such as arm bar followed by knee/downward elbow strike to the spine or indeed perhaps kakewake uke (wedge block) to break the arm at the elbow by striking simultaneously above and below the elbow joint on either side of the arm
(as seen in the Shotokan kata Heian Nidan) Secondly I would consider turning into the opponent with an elbow strike or hook punch possibly followed by seoi nage (shoulder throw) or any number of sweeps using the torque and rotation generated by my initial strike. As I said many options but one must always remember not to be too flowery and just to get the job done. Secondly one must consider the law and (in the UK at least) the concept of reasonable force. The courts might take a dim view of a shattered elbow or arm or indeed a crushed larynx as a result of a simple lapel grab. Well just my 2 pence worth anyway.
Regds and good training.
Posted by: MrVigerous
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 01:37 PM
I would point out in addition to my previous post, that on reflection, if your just looking up, as your lapel is grabbed and he intends to hit you in the face without further comment, then the first punch will most likely be on its way in the time it takes you to launch a counter strike. Therefore you guys might wish to concider a response in light of the fact that you may be stunned or dazed from the strike OR if you did manage to cover up and ride the punch how would this change the nature of your response bearing in mind you may be off balance or un-sighted of the target? Just an additional thought.
Posted by: Kuromatsu
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 01:38 PM
MrVig. wrote:
"Secondly one must consider the law and (in the UK at least) the concept of reasonable force. The courts might take a dim view of a shattered elbow or arm or indeed a crushed larynx as a result of a simple lapel grab."
The thing is that a simple lapel grab is not a simple lapel grab. It is a prelude to being knifed in the belly or throat or to having one's head reshaped by a pipe. The result can easily be death - so in this situation one is well within the "right" to respond with formidable force to prevent a presumed deadly assault - and we must ALWAYS presume an assault to be deadly. No one willfully assaults someone to be gentle. ;-)
Kind regards,
Andy
Posted by: MrVigerous
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 03:06 PM
Hi Kuromatsu. I dont know what your country of residence is, so my point regarding the law may not apply to you. However in the UK where I reside, I can tell you that in a situation such as we are discussing you may only use "resonable force" in the prevention of a crime /self defence /defence of property. The "reasonableness" of the force that you use in this situation will be a matter for the jury to decide. In doing this they should put themsleves in your position at the time, under the stresses you were exposed to and the time that you had to make a decision. That being said you cannot expect the court to accept that all assaults are to be presumed deadly and thereby you are justified in responding with as you put it "formidable force." What if in the scenario given, the guy had stumbled and just grabbed hold of you for support and you put him into intensive care? As Martial Artists we may be particularly vulnerable to prosecution in cases such as these and it is important to concider these matters as best we can in the circumstances. That being said, there is the arguement that "it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."
At the end of the day its a matter for individual reflection and concideration.
Regds and good training.
[This message has been edited by MrVigerous (edited 08-15-2001).]
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 04:40 PM
Interesting thoughts.
I believe you are right Mr.V. ones first concern (if you have the state of mind) is to deal with the punch, preferably before it makes contact with your face.
If you are a well seasoned Martial Artist, it is safe to assume that even in blind panic, you would be able to move your head enough to reduce the force of the blow.
I will pick up from this point, assuming that you have in some way or another prevented yourself from being struck hard.
MrV. is quite right. To stike with a kick, especially now, would be difficult and ineffectual. A head butt, however interesting, would only be possible if you could mount enough force to over come the controlling lapel grab and be quick enough to outmatch a second punch.
One must remember that defined and speciffically targeted strikes will generally be useless. Unless you Mr IceMan.
Stress (which you will definately be experiencing) reduces the number of fine hand/arm movements the body is capable of.
KoshoBob's and Kuromatsu's final thoughts would be most effective here I believe. To lock and throw the opponent would be easiest and most effective. Assuming the attacker has grabbed you with his right hand you could:
1) grab his/her/its wrist with both hands and turn your right hip back, so that you are on the outside of the arm. Applying pressure downwards thought the elbow will cause him/her/it to fall rapidly to the ground.
2) grab his/her/its wrist with both hands and turn your right hip forwards, continuing this motion quickly will cause the opponent to flip over quite dramatically.
On the subject of reasonable force. MrV is right. Here in the UK we must demonstrate in court why we used the force we did. I also believe that in the States there are laws governing this subject. Afterall, if you break a person's nose and run off, the police are not likely to be interested. Kill or maim someone and they will be.
Beyond this we must consider the morallity of the situation. I feel this is a topic for a new posting, as it is purely an individual thing.
Incidentally, a lapel grab is not always a prelude to the use of a knife.
If a knife was to be used then the moment you looked at your watch, you would be stabbed.
Budo.
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 04:58 PM
.....you hear someone running behind you. As you turn you realise that they are RIGHT behind you!!
What do you do next???
(This is situation Q#2)
Posted by: Kuromatsu
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/15/01 07:06 PM
Hi MrV,
Ha! ;-) Your observations assume that I'm suggesting that we lash out in a thoughtless act of obtuse violence without taking into account what might be perceived in the moment. My point is that we must be prepared to do maximum damage in an instant, acting on the presupposition that we are in mortal danger. Given out training, it is quite probable that we will be able to assess the situation in an instant (sadly, those who do not train as we do will not be able to) and respond according to our training.
The assumption that we are in mortal danger has to be our starting point because it is far easier to "downgrade" our response than it is to upgrade it. There are plenty of techniques that are available to us where the difference between a control and/or immobilization and a deadly technique are minute and not difficult to switch to/from.
I understand your legal concerns and I don't see any problem in taking it into account - as a second concern - the primary being personal wellbeing. I'm in the U.S. and our legal system is not too different in its approach to this kind of "case."
Kind regards,
Andy
Posted by: TomSwiss
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/16/01 02:23 AM
[QUOTE]The assumption that we are in mortal danger has to be our starting point because it is far easier to "downgrade" our response than it is to upgrade it.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm...How do I "downgrade" my response after I've used lethal force? How do I un-hit someone with full power in the throat or the back of the head? How do I un-break a neck?
If I use a stunning or incapacitating technique, I can follow it up with a potentially lethal blow if appropriate. The converse is not true.
Anyway...in the lapel-grab case, my first concern is, where's the other hand and what's it doing? The hand that's grabbing me isn't a problem, worst it will do is tear my shirt.
If there's not a knife in the right - the idea being to grab and pull with the left while trying to hit me in the face with the right - I might let him pull me in but angle to my left (his right), smother and deflect his right punch with both my hands, grab behind his head and bend him down, and go with a knee kick to the groin, ribs, solar plexus, or head, depending.
Many other responses are possible, depending on the details of body positioning, relative sizes of attacker and defender, etcetera.
For the right-behind-you-case, there's not yet an attack. Heck, this could be someone running away from an attacker, or running up to me to give me back the wallet I dropped a few blocks back! The assumption that this person intends me mortal harm could result in me killing someone I should be defending, or even innocently trying to help me.
So I'd want to get out of the way with a pivot, redirect them around me, and "help" them to lose their balance without actually throwing them.
Posted by: omegapoint
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/16/01 06:37 AM
If the assailant grabs your lapels with both hands an effective method of escaping that I've used in the street before, is to come up inside with both of your arms trapping and locking his elbows. Wrap your forearms over the distal biceps (near the antecubital fossa) and apply pressure down and back. Immediately change to forward pressure (towards him) and he should move forward to compensate again, that's when you pull him toward you and let loose with a solid frontkick to the groin, lower abdomen or solar plexus. This should be done very quickly. At the least you will put some distance between you and the aggressor, and maybe confuse him enough to jet!
If he tries to shoot for your legs you should have adequate hand position to sprawl. If he pulls you towards him straight-off, then you can headbutt him in the face (bridge of the nose).
If he grabs you with one hand, immediately slap it away, and try to get outside his centerline. Be conscious of a 4 foot circle of personal space and don't let any adult you don't know invade it without adjusting and warning them verbally. If he has a tight hold on you and accomplished this unexpectedly, then any of the reasons mentioned in the other replies are feasible.
I would always make sure to step away from the free-hand as I don't know what he may be holding in it. Using body-change move diagonally and to his right (your left). Simultaneously, grab his arm applying pressure at the wrist by controlling his hand using your right hand (if he grabs you with his right), pull him down and clockwise, strike him just above the hip with your left to bring him towards the ground. Your left leg should be forward protecting your groin and an L-stance is ideal. Immediately bring your left hand up to control the elbow (lower tricep), and quickly follow by low kicking/sweeping his right leg to upset his base. Guide him or throw him to the ground while still standing. You should pretty much be behind him. Try not to go to the ground and back away. Use your sensitivity to direct the tech., but don't be too soft and yielding. Make him do what you want, and go where you want him to be. It's important to keep the wrist locked if you can while performing this tech.
Check your back then bolt! If you have no choice and you have to go to the ground, then get his back staying away from his left as much as possible (you can use a knee control position) and crank his arm quickly and furiously with whatever armbar, lock, or kimura you know will work. If there is more than one attacker then the strategy changes, of course. Let's not get into those techs, though, as my post is getting too long! Later and thanks for your attention.
[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 08-16-2001).]
[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 08-16-2001).]
[This message has been edited by omegapoint (edited 08-16-2001).]
Posted by: P Carney
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/29/01 08:09 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Interesting thoughts.
To stike with a kick, especially now, would be difficult and ineffectual. [/QUOTE]
Not quite true! one of my favorite kicks is the oblique kick (I believe it's called a gee tek in wing chun). It's a simple kick to the knee with the bottom of your rear foot. From close in you bend your leg at the knee and strike out, and then push in to buckle the knee. Another description I've heard is that you pretend your "sweeping trash off the street" (silly, but descriptive). It's a quick, simple strike. Of course, it doesn't have as much power as a round or side kick, but because you're taking the knee, you don't need much. I've used the kick countless timing in sparring (against the shin, not the knee, of course), and I know from experience that it can take a leg out. Good stuff!
Posted by: unified
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 08/29/01 10:52 AM
When you are grabbed...for a moment...that is what is happening...you are grabbed...one of the attacker's weapons (his hand) is occupied with grabbing you...all of your weapons are free. No matter what techniques you are capable of executing...ideally they should happen between the grab and the attackers followup move (punch, knife strike etc.). If you are struck, you should continue moving anyway...to stand there you are only making yourself a stationary target and limiting your ability to counter attack.
Quite often the element of surprise attack produces a moment of immobility in the intended victim. Your body has to move immediately until your mind figures out (catches up) to what is happening.
I decided not to offer any particular techniques because the size of the attacker and the intended victim offer a wide range of defenses; several have already been explained by other participants in this forum.
The bottom line...'no one can attack you without exposing themselves to be counter attacked'.
[This message has been edited by unified (edited 08-29-2001).]
Posted by: kenpocan
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 09/20/01 09:14 AM
Kenpo has a useful technique for this kind of scenario. If you want a quick result and the option of either escape or manipulation, glancing salute or lone kimono would work for openers. Both enable you to snap the elbow in such a way that his impending attack with a knife is somewhat cancelled, follow it with a good wrist lock and arm bar, pain would make for some good purposeful compliance [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG].
Then take knife and slit his throat. Just kidding.
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/07/01 03:56 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by P Carney:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by judderman:
Interesting thoughts.
To stike with a kick, especially now, would be difficult and ineffectual. [/QUOTE]
Not quite true! one of my favorite kicks is the oblique kick (I believe it's called a gee tek in wing chun). It's a simple kick to the knee with the bottom of your rear foot. From close in you bend your leg at the knee and strike out, and then push in to buckle the knee. Another description I've heard is that you pretend your "sweeping trash off the street" (silly, but descriptive). It's a quick, simple strike. Of course, it doesn't have as much power as a round or side kick, but because you're taking the knee, you don't need much. I've used the kick countless timing in sparring (against the shin, not the knee, of course), and I know from experience that it can take a leg out. Good stuff!
An interesting technique, but only for the seasoned practitioner. My reasons for this is much the same as my original quote. If you are not used to being attacked then you will be under a great deal of stress. this make the precise stricking of an area difficult if not impossible.
A wonderful technique, but for the unseasoned practitioner useless.
Budo.
Posted by: Jim
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/12/01 09:58 AM
Hi all,
In my (very limited) experience people generally grap with their weaker hand (normally left) to set you up for a crushing right or the option to strike. This tells you that either: they are not really trained to fight or have too much adrenalin/alcohol/drugs going to think or they are out to intimidate you for what ever reason.
Some one who wants to really do you harm and knows something will not 'announce' it but simply attack with as much force and suprise as possible.
Surely best thing is avoid the lapel grab before it goes on. This can be done in any number of ways. I think it is OK to be quite forceful if neccessary in stopping the grab though this will probably escalate the confrontation but if it was going to get nasty this won't have made it any worse. You can also use this to put them and you in a position where they will find it harder to attack you and where it is easier for you to incapacitate/hurt the attacker out if that is what you decide is required.
Once there is some space the attacker has to actually attack or not...
Jim
Posted by: Shadowfax
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/14/01 12:14 AM
My question is why are you close enough for him to grab your lapel? When someone asks me the time i take a step back as I'm looking at my watch since asking the time is a common ploy to distract you while they open the fight.
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/15/01 05:02 PM
How about not distancing?
Why not lie? Make up the time or say you havent got a watch/watch is broken.
Show your watch to them as if busy with something else.
Opinions??
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/15/01 05:06 PM
Remember that the lapel grab can be replaced with a knife instead. A common MO for some street robbers.
Opinions??
Budo.
[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 10-15-2001).]
Posted by: Jim
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/17/01 10:19 AM
I agree with Juddermans suggestions.
I think any tactics that keeps a potential attacker at a distance especially one that involves no use of violence is a good one.
Being realistic too a bit of distance will always favor the martial artist over the attacker if the they decide to attack.
Posted by: Oldwolf
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/21/01 03:57 PM
You let him beat the shit out of you for your stupidity, then you return to your dojo/dojang/kwoon and set about your instructor for not teaching you a proper martial art. Why do you let a total stranger into your intimate space?, call me old fashioned or what but I like to keep the enemy beyond the castle gates untill I make them my friend or lover. That last bits just coz my wifes reading over my shoulder.
Ps now back in the country briefly with a great sun tan courtesy of the Best trained army in the world.
[This message has been edited by Oldwolf (edited 10-21-2001).]
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 10/25/01 06:04 PM
Again. Distancing. Fencing. Very similar rules you learn in competition sparring.
However I believe it is important to engage your opponent mentally. This can be intimitation, ignorance, confidence, friendlyness, joviality, the list is almost endless.
Budo.
Posted by: Freddytai
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 11/21/01 06:04 AM
I have read most of the replies, most are very good. But one thought has been left out, time. You don't have the time to decide what you are going to do, much less disgard any options. At this point it is a matter of reaction. You must react to the attack at hand. You must relie on your training at this point and hope it hasn't been lacking that special something.
In my system we have a slogan, "All else fails, Break Him!". Another words, do what you can when you can and if your defenses are lacking break something on your attacker.
This person is attempting to do bodily harm to you, if not to take your life. I personaly feel that my family or my own well being is worth a night or two in the county jail.
[This message has been edited by Freddytai (edited 11-21-2001).]
Posted by: DPK
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/02/01 11:24 PM
do what you can when you can and if your defenses are lacking break something on your attacker.
Exactly, reach straight up and break the neck. Quick and easy and you don't have to worry about getting stuck with something hidden. If he has friends you waste minimal time with one body and are ready to take th erest out.
Posted by: steinbroner
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/27/02 07:34 AM
IMO the first thing that should be done in ANY grab situation is to regain your lost balance, and if things go at all well this should move your attacker to a weaker stance. A grab is easier to defend against than many other attacks, you alredy know where at least one of your attackers arms is! USE IT!! When you regain your balance you buy yourself a split second of decision making time, and disrupt the attackers next move. Balance first, then follow up.
Posted by: Fruitloopy
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 03/01/02 08:44 PM
With this hand I can poke out you Eyes!
With this other hand I can tear out you throat!
With this foot I can kick you in the
b@lls! And with this other foot I can kick you in the nose!
Take a good look at me!
Waaattaaaaw!
Well it worked in 'They call me Bruce'!!!
Posted by: JediKungFu
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 03/16/02 05:20 PM
Well, with the lapel grab and then a punch about to come my way I'd have fun with this one. Chances are the person isn't an experienced fighter-any smart fighter won't even do something that stupid. If I had time to react to the punch, I'd simply move my head out of the way and/or duck. I wouldn't stand in the path of a moving train. If didn't succeed at hitting me I'd give him a good ol' knee or snap kick to the groin. Hopefully his hand would release. And for a good-bye kiss I'd knee him in the chin on his way down and make a run for it.
Now for the one if somebody was running and stopped behing me, it really depends on what they were about to do. If they put me in a bear hug I'd give 'em a good thrashing of elbows to the back. If that didn't work I'd jab their foot real hard-then kick out their knee cap.
Posted by: mikelw
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 11/16/02 04:30 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JediKungFu:
Well, with the lapel grab and then a punch about to come my way I'd have fun with this one. Chances are the person isn't an experienced fighter-any smart fighter won't even do something that stupid. If I had time to react to the punch, I'd simply move my head out of the way and/or duck. I wouldn't stand in the path of a moving train. If didn't succeed at hitting me I'd give him a good ol' knee or snap kick to the groin. Hopefully his hand would release. And for a good-bye kiss I'd knee him in the chin on his way down and make a run for it.
Now for the one if somebody was running and stopped behing me, it really depends on what they were about to do. If they put me in a bear hug I'd give 'em a good thrashing of elbows to the back. If that didn't work I'd jab their foot real hard-then kick out their knee cap.[/QUOTE]
Hey, im a brown belt in shito-ryu karate, and im wondering why noone had even thought of punching the guy in the facewith your right hand????? Do things need to be so complicated? As you turn around from the grab just deck the guy in the face with a reverse punch!!! Its practical, brutal, and it'll most likely put the guy down. I do agree that a joint lock or a groin kick would also be good.
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 11/23/02 02:39 PM
A good point made by Mike.
A lot would depend upon your ability at punching.
I imagine that because you are connected to your attacker, you are more likely to fail at a decisive strike. This is because as you move, your attacker will move accordingly.
Perhaps a strike to the opposite shoulder, thinking in terms of reacting in circles. Or if you are being pulled in a lead hand strike?
What do others think?
Would you use the same technique if a blade was in your attackers other hand??
[This message has been edited by judderman (edited 11-23-2002).]
Posted by: kenpodave
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/08/02 06:19 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kenpocan:
Kenpo has a useful technique for this kind of scenario. If you want a quick result and the option of either escape or manipulation, glancing salute or lone kimono would work for openers. Both enable you to snap the elbow in such a way that his impending attack with a knife is somewhat cancelled, follow it with a good wrist lock and arm bar, pain would make for some good purposeful compliance [IMG]http://bbs.fightingarts.com/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] .
Then take knife and slit his throat. Just kidding.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget delayed sword. Also if the guy decides to grab the other lapel, then twin kimono. mace of agression or raking mace if he decides he wants to pull you towards him.
Posted by: mikelw
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/08/02 09:40 PM
ya, good point there judderman, i never thought of that. In Wing Chun Kung Fu, there is a technique known as the "inch punch". This is where you basically knock the guy flying with a strike that begun no more than 2 inches away from his body. If you knew how to do that technique that would work quite well. I also think an upward or lateral elbow strike would work really well in this situation. Low knee kicks are also good.
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/08/02 10:10 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikelw:
ya, good point there judderman, i never thought of that. In Wing Chun Kung Fu, there is a technique known as the "inch punch". This is where you basically knock the guy flying with a strike that begun no more than 2 inches away from his body. If you knew how to do that technique that would work quite well. I also think an upward or lateral elbow strike would work really well in this situation. Low knee kicks are also good.[/QUOTE]
I Can see that most of these would work,But Its not your action,But your re action. You Dont think about what you do you just do.
Posted by: mikelw
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/12/02 05:40 PM
i know that. When i said "know how to do" i meant to say "trained to do". And yes, you should not try ot think about anything during a fight, it will just slow you down. The zen philosophy is to simply react in the best possible way without thinking.
Posted by: Shawk
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/13/02 02:53 AM
Someone told me this once:
"Do not what if me....the answer will hurt you."
~hawk~
Posted by: Jeniko
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 12/25/02 08:50 PM
One thing i think you should bear in mind is that there is no such thing as " Dirty fighting " in a situation like that. he could have a weapon. It's a kill or be killed situation... ( not literally kill them tho ) so all the stuff you hear about " kicking in the groin is dirty fighting " no such thing as that.
A good one i read about is a kick to the knee, as the leg is usually close to you, it's an easy target, and a painful one to.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/02/03 06:49 AM
The FIRST thing to do would be to obtain "positional control" in this clinch.
Once positional control is established you have MANY options (strikes, throws, standing submissions) whereas your opponent has zero.
-John
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/02/03 12:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
The FIRST thing to do would be to obtain "positional control" in this clinch.
Once positional control is established you have MANY options (strikes, throws, standing submissions) whereas your opponent has zero.
-John[/QUOTE]
John, could you expand on this "positional control". It's title appears self explanitory, but what are the mechanics?
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/02/03 02:03 PM
More than happy to oblige (bear in mind though that the limitations of this medium won't do it justice). First allow me to explain the theory and then some mechanics.
The clinch should be considered a 'range' and as such, has three basic concepts that should be followed:
1) Obtaining a control tie-up
2) Striking (attached and unattached -- explained in a moment)
3) Takedowns and/or standing submissions
Lets look at each one now:
1) Gaining a control tie-up enables a fighter to do several things:
*Obviously the first is control of the opponent's body. This allows you to basically do what you want with him while being simultaneously protected from HIS attacks.
*When you have control of your opponent's body, you can strike him, use standing submissions, or throw him/use takedowns
2)Striking: From an established position of control, you can basically fire at will. Having an "attachment" means that you are physically hanging onto your opponent with one or both hands.
*Attached hitting is usually done with knee strikes as you are using your hands on the various "choke points" to control him. You can use one hand or two as an attachment. Elbow strikes and headbutting can also be used along with knees in this range.
*Unattached hitting is where you aren't holding him but are still extremely close to him. Here you'll be using the elbows primarily (then knees, headbutts, etc). Punching attacks like hooks and uppercuts /chin jab, etc are also good).
3) Takedowns: All manner of throws, trips, tackles, etc are available from a position of control in the clinch. Some are quite vicious and involve dropping your opponent on his head.
Controlling the clinch involves first entering safely into this range. That will take a whole other thread just to begin to describe how to do that. Later...
To control the clinch, you'll have to gain control of the "choke points" that I'm referring to. These are briefly:
1) Underhook: For example, your left arm is placed in between his right arm and his body (his armpit), with the hand of your left arm clasping his deltoid (shoulder) muscle. When shooting your arm through and into the underhook position, your forehead will go tight against his jawline. Your opposite arm will control his opposite arm at the shoulder, bicep, or wrist. There will be NO way that he will be able to hurt you in such a position, but you will have many options yourself!
2) Double Neck-Tie ("Plum" position): This is found within muay Thai. Most people don't have a good understanding of the dynamics of this position however and don't know how to control it properly. Knee strikes are VERY effective here.
To get a double neck tie, you grasp your opponent around the neck with both arms, clasping your hands one on top of another up on the crown of his head. Your elbows should come tight to each other (nearly touching) right in front of his face basically. You then proceed to MOVE your opponent immediately backward and side to side to disturb his balance (using pulling motions at times as well).
You also must pull your opponent's head down (so he's looking at the floor) and move your hips away at this point. Knee strikes straight up to the face are fun here as is, stuffing the head, front head-locks, front chokes, snap-downs, shucks / go-behinds, the "putar kepala" (a takedown)from SILAT also works really well from there, as I have used it myself on several occassions!
3) Takedowns: There are just too many to mention. Putting your opponent down is a GREAT method of setting him up for punishment, or allowing you to escape (while he's down, you run). Just depends on the situation.
There are other control tie-ups such as the "whizzer", and the double underhook, but all that can be learned easily.
There is a video by my friends Adam and Rory Singer which was a taped seminar that is available for a mere 30 bucks (it lasts several hours) that shows an INCREDIBLE amount of things you can do from the clinch! They are who I learned it from!
Here's a link to their site:
http://www.thehardcoregym.net/ Here's a link to their video:
http://www.thehardcoregym.net/store.shtml That is a VERY good deal for 30 bucks and it goes into MUCH more detail obviously than I can here.
It's completely worth it! The clinch is the next frontier of modern hand to hand combatives.
Good training to you!
-John
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/02/03 02:05 PM
Here are some pics of the guys training the clinch:
http://www.thehardcoregym.net/campgallery.shtml (The second picture at the top left shows the underhook position being trained, btw)
-John
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-02-2003).]
Posted by: joesixpack
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/04/03 03:37 AM
John, if you did those in sequnce, with or without a partner, concentrating of elements of good technique (concentration, strenght, speed, correct technique), the resulting mov would be a kata. Get it? Not necessary but it helps?
BTW I am impressed.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/04/03 07:27 PM
John, if you did those in sequnce, with or without a partner, concentrating of elements of good technique (concentration, strenght, speed, correct technique), the resulting mov would be a kata. Get it? Not necessary but it helps?
I understand your point. It really comes down to semantics doesn't it? If all kata were performed this way, it would certainly be more beneficial than solitary kata without a partner.
The key to remember is that your partner must (after an brief initial stage) actively resist what it is that you are attempting (sportive training). This is the aliveness so critical for improvement in one's ability.
Thanks and good training Joe
-John
Posted by: judderman
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/05/03 07:40 AM
It makes more sense having read your post and seeing the pictures. Thanks.
I was watching the boxing and saw the underhook in various guises being used to great effect. Very interesting.
I was aware of the Muay Thai clinch.
Could the underhook also be used over the arm, like a loose arm lock? Perhaps it wouldn't have the abilty to move the opponent as effectively?
Budo.
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/05/03 11:45 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Here are some pics of the guys training the clinch:
http://www.thehardcoregym.net/campgallery.shtml
(The second picture at the top left shows the underhook position being trained, btw)
-John
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-02-2003).][/QUOTE]Im not impressed,With these pictures,I see the groin is open for a strike.& somebody else is leading with the head,Akick to the knee to theis guy wld surely finish the job.These people need to learn some kata/forms. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/05/03 06:34 PM
Mr. Moderator....Isshinryu kid is baiting. Please advise him.
Isshinryukid, a few questions please. It appears that I am misguided in my martial arts knowledge and tactics.
First: How might the guy being underhooked, kick the knee of the guy WITH the underhook without being slammed unmercifully to the ground (as, taking a foot off the ground in this position leaves one with HORRIBLE balance). Just curious, as you know something to which I don't. Please explain.
Second question: If I may, might you allow me to ask how you see that the groin is open? I'm just curious as to how you arrived at that conclussion!
I'm curious to see why you think that the groin is open on the man with the control position and, how you might think that the groin is MORE READILY available to strike, from the position of the man WITH the control?
Please answer. I enthusiastically await your reply!
Sincerely,
-John
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-05-2003).]
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/05/03 10:42 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Mr. Moderator....Isshinryu kid is baiting. Please advise him.
Isshinryukid, a few questions please. It appears that I am misguided in my martial arts knowledge and tactics.
First: How might the guy being underhooked, kick the knee of the guy WITH the underhook without being slammed unmercifully to the ground (as, taking a foot off the ground in this position leaves one with HORRIBLE balance). Just curious, as you know something to which I don't. Please explain.
Second question: If I may, might you allow me to ask how you see that the groin is open? I'm just curious as to how you arrived at that conclussion!
I'm curious to see why you think that the groin is open on the man with the control position and, how you might think that the groin is MORE READILY available to strike, from the position of the man WITH the control?
Please answer. I enthusiastically await your reply!
Sincerely,
-John
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-05-2003).][/QUOTE]The Person above, Might be in control,But is leaving himslf wide open for a shot to the groin,As the person below is close enough to make a hard punch to the groin.The 2 bottom pics of the same fight show 2 combatents.One Punching,& Leading with his head,As He takes a giant step,The same pic from another view,I See him putting all of his wait on his front foot,While bending his backfoot,Leavin him off ballance,& leaving himslf wide open.& The targets are the toe,arch of the foot,Femur,Fibula,Tibula,Groin,Solar Plexus,The Chest & Stomach,Face,head All Just to name a few.& Yet the one standing upright,Is Nothig more than a Punching bag.PS No Insult was Intended. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/06/03 04:50 PM
I understand "Kid", no offense taken, but I'm thinking that perhaps you just don't understand the "dynamics" of clinch. Also, I don't know if it is even worth explaining.
HOWEVER, I will say this; look at the second photo and specifically, the second two fighters on the right. They show (in only one static photo) the correct control with the underhook.
If you notice, the man on the left has his left arm controlled, while his right arm is also controlled. During this time, pressure into the man's head is made by the man on the right, thus, his partners body is completely controlled! Therefore, NO attacks are available. The ONLY thing that the man on the left can do, is to try a technical counter to the situation.
This comes only from having trained this "sport" long enough to know how to counter the underhook. It is NOT countered by a "crude" tactic such as a shot to the groin or a kick. There is NO way that a kick would land as, (what you're NOT seeing due to the limitations of the meduium) the man on the right is inducing great PRESSURE on his opponent. It is impossible to kick while under this "pressure" that I'm referring to. How do I know? I've TRIED it and have many others!
This would be the CORRECT application of the clinch. Please bear in mind that a PHOTOGRAPH does not do the clinch fighter justice. The clinch must be experienced to be appreciated. Trust me on this.
In our gym, we TRAIN for biting, eye gouging and groin shots WITHIN these positions. We have found through EXPERIENCE that it is next to impossible to do anything but try and keep your balance. That's an interesting thing if you've not experienced it. When at a loss of balance, you can do ONE of two things (but not both): try and strike (which will fail as you need a base to strike from) or, fight to regain your balance. There ARE no other alternatives!
Good training!
-John
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/06/03 09:15 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
I understand "Kid", no offense taken, but I'm thinking that perhaps you just don't understand the "dynamics" of clinch. Also, I don't know if it is even worth explaining.
HOWEVER, I will say this; look at the second photo and specifically, the second two fighters on the right. They show (in only one static photo) the correct control with the underhook.
If you notice, the man on the left has his left arm controlled, while his right arm is also controlled. During this time, pressure into the man's head is made by the man on the right, thus, his partners body is completely controlled! Therefore, NO attacks are available. The ONLY thing that the man on the left can do, is to try a technical counter to the situation.
This comes only from having trained this "sport" long enough to know how to counter the underhook. It is NOT countered by a "crude" tactic such as a shot to the groin or a kick. There is NO way that a kick would land as, (what you're NOT seeing due to the limitations of the meduium) the man on the right is inducing great PRESSURE on his opponent. It is impossible to kick while under this "pressure" that I'm referring to. How do I know? I've TRIED it and have many others!
This would be the CORRECT application of the clinch. Please bear in mind that a PHOTOGRAPH does not do the clinch fighter justice. The clinch must be experienced to be appreciated. Trust me on this.
In our gym, we TRAIN for biting, eye gouging and groin shots WITHIN these positions. We have found through EXPERIENCE that it is next to impossible to do anything but try and keep your balance. That's an interesting thing if you've not experienced it. When at a loss of balance, you can do ONE of two things (but not both): try and strike (which will fail as you need a base to strike from) or, fight to regain your balance. There ARE no other alternatives!
Good training!
-John[/QUOTE]The Combatent in this pic,Might Be the agresser.but he is making a long reach,As he over extends his body.& When that happens,He Not only is wide open,But He's losing power.It wld be better,For him to be patient,& Circle his opponent,& When he's close enough,He cld then parry/sidestep & strike. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: SaNo
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/06/03 11:39 PM
geez the picture just one up from the bottom left looks like 2 gay men haha
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/07/03 03:06 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SaNo:
geez the picture just one up from the bottom left looks like 2 gay men haha[/QUOTE]
Sano,Plz Behave yourself. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]
[This message has been edited by isshinryu kid (edited 02-07-2003).]
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/07/03 06:10 PM
Obviously you speak without having experienced it yourself "kid". That is why it's impossible to take you seriously.
Go back to practicing your levitation or something.
Sano: You said that they looked "gay". Allow me to ask, are you a homophobe? Also, would you be willing to say that to their faces? If so, why are you using a "handle" instead of your real name?
Why are you ALL using "fake" names? Got something to hide?
-John
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/07/03 08:20 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Obviously you speak without having experienced it yourself "kid". That is why it's impossible to take you seriously.
Go back to practicing your levitation or something.
Sano: You said that they looked "gay". Allow me to ask, are you a homophobe? Also, would you be willing to say that to their faces? If so, why are you using a "handle" instead of your real name?
Why are you ALL using "fake" names? Got something to hide?
-John[/QUOTE]It,Looks Like john has, nothig to say.
You Can't find the answers,Or You don't want the answers. Being A martial artist,Is also Asking questions. But When the qeustions stop,Then So does the learning. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] PS Yours Truly Sensei Rhodes.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/08/03 05:24 AM
No Kid, I have plenty of answers. Actually I have posted some of them already but through your inexperience, couldn't understand them.
You simply are WRONG with your "theoretical" counter to an underhook. It doesn't work. We TRY such things in training all the time, not simply resting on theory as YOU are. I KNOW of what I am speaking due to experience. YOU are simply looking for argument and nothing more. Talk is cheap boy.
That is all you are wanting to do though, and quite frankly, your circular arguments without first hand knowledge is tiring. ANYONE can "speculate" KID, but to get in the ring, to get on the mat...that takes something you apparently don't have. Leave it at that.
Where are you located kid? I'll be more than happy to host you free of charge should you want to "explore" your theoretical counters to my clinch!
-John
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/08/03 05:26 AM
FIRST name and location "sensei" Rhodes?
-John
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/08/03 06:19 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
FIRST name and location "sensei" Rhodes?
-John[/QUOTE]Are you challenging me?
Posted by: MrVigerous
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/08/03 06:19 AM
i assume everyone has read and digested the
" MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR" post. On this basis I would suggest that psuedo challenges are not in the spirit of this resource.
For the last time, there will be no more "dick" measuring contests please.
Regds
Mr V
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/08/03 06:30 AM
It's not a "challenge" in the sense that you might think "kid" although I'm not afraid of going against anyone, anytime, anywhere.
It's a "friendly",open invitation to come to my gym (or, for me to come to your's) and train, roll and spar.
Take it for what you want however. I meant it only as an "educational" experience. I think you need to need to understand the dynamics of the clinch before you go spouting off with your theoretical diatribe.
Here's my gym info:
"Crucible Gym"
5940 Germanton Rd.
Winston-Salem, NC 27105
email:
cruciblegym@yahoo.com />
We have an open gym policy whereby we will roll and spar with ANYONE who comes through the doors, with as many or as few rules as it makes them comfortable, live and in front of my students. That is what keeps an organization healthy and free of inbred nonsense. This is done all in a "friendly" manner of course.
Also; any ONE from any WHERE is invited. The only rules in place are there to keep from intentionally putting someone in the hospital. Just like the Dog Brothers....no suing no-one for nothing, no how, no way. Be friends at the end of the day. That is there for me as much as it is for anyone else.
Good training all!
Sincerely,
John Kogas
[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 02-08-2003).]
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/08/03 09:46 PM
judderman:
Indeed the "overhook" can be used (wrapping the arm over that of your oppoent's). It's called a "wizzer". The thing is, you have to be extremely careful using this overhook as it gives up inside position to your opponent.
If you just have an overhook and are simply controlling position, you MUST control the opponent's other arm as well. However, if you are using the overhook as a wizzer, you'll be pressuring into it and, sweeping him with your near leg.
Hard to explain in text. Get a basic wrestling book or video and see it applied in greater detail.
Some good videos are available here:
www.straightblastgym.com -John
Posted by: isshinryu kid
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/09/03 06:54 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
judderman:
Indeed the "overhook" can be used (wrapping the arm over that of your oppoent's). It's called a "wizzer". The thing is, you have to be extremely careful using this overhook as it gives up inside position to your opponent.
If you just have an overhook and are simply controlling position, you MUST control the opponent's other arm as well. However, if you are using the overhook as a wizzer, you'll be pressuring into it and, sweeping him with your near leg.
Hard to explain in text. Get a basic wrestling book or video and see it applied in greater detail.
Some good videos are available here: www.straightblastgym.com
-John[/QUOTE]John,Are you a certified instructor? PS Im Not insulting you,Just Curious. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
Posted by: JKogas
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/09/03 05:35 PM
It's all good Isshinryukid! I've no beef with you! It's going to take more than internet debate to get my hackles up.
I am certified by Paul Vunak in JKD concepts and Filipino martial arts, although I'm not currently listed on his site. My gym is now affiliated with the Straight Blast Gym (www.straightblastgym.com). We are listed as an ATG (affiliated training group) in the Southern region.
But who cares about rank and titles, right? We no longer offer rank since we've been affiliated with the SBG. Things have gone INFINITELY smoother since dropping all of that.
Good luck with your training!
-John
Posted by: Jamoni
Re: You are walking down the street and........ - 02/12/03 08:37 PM
I'm going to have to agree with JKogas on the difficulty of kicking while in an underhook hold. Ishinryukid said that the fighter on top is overextended, but what he is doing is putting his weight on the other guys back. This forces his opponent to carry two guys around. Also, because of the leverage available, if an opponent were to try lifting a leg to kick, a simple twist of the shoulders would be sufficient to throw him. Standing on one leg to kick sacrifices mobility and stability, and any good wrestler will slam you the moment you break your balance. Also, reaching for the groin is both obvious, and an invitation to be thrown in the form of overcomitting, again breaking your balance. If you doubt any of this, sinply call up your local high school or college. Explain to the coach that you are interested in how a wrestler would deal with certain martial arts situations, and ask to work out with him. He'll probably be agreeable. For that matter, go watch a high school wrestling match.