Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist?
Posted by: Neko456
Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/06/07 04:07 PM
Is open hand more suitable for self defense or the fist?
I believe you fight the way you train, when I do bag work I don't leave out my open hand strikes.
I sorta Shadow box the bag (unless I'm doing power training) so I sweep under it and slap under it. I don't so much strike it on top because its hard on the harness.
But back to the topic a lot people say they'd strike with palm on the street but they practice in gloves and only hit with fist even in bag work. Even hand bags I train using open and close hand formation trying to develop a natural flow thats instinctive.
Most men naturally strike with thier fist even if the guards are up in defense. Sometimes the open hand will slip right through.
Do practice U what you preach? Do you train close fisted all the time and think or say you rather strike open if you had to?
Which do or have you actually use in practice or foreal?
No way that works is wrong.
Posted by: hedkikr
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/06/07 04:16 PM
What do you mean "hand-bags"...you mean like a purse?
When I practice for impact training, I use a loose (semi-closed) fist. This allows for relaxation (= speed) & increased ability to grab.
Don't omit the slap (or as some like to refer to it - the "combat slap" which sounds more macho). BTW, it's not the same as your mother's slap.
Back-fist (uraken) can also be done open-handed/semi-closed.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/06/07 04:53 PM
To our resident Master of Shito-ryu who asked for a definition of a hand bag inregards to the topic of striking.
Any striking bag held in the hand to practice movement, power, timing and speed rather then a heavy bag hung from a ceiling or wall.
Opps sorry didn't notice you were from Cailfornia. U need that explanation its so diversed there.
Posted by: brocksampson
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/06/07 05:30 PM
I guess I default to the fist but train both. It's according to the "target" I'm after more than anything else.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/06/07 06:06 PM
I train open-hand strikes on the bag, often from the "fence" position. I think open or closed hand strikes can work well for SD. Open hand stuff may be considered less "violent" in the case of police review, so it is a good idea to keep them in consideration.
Posted by: Dedicated1
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/06/07 09:51 PM
When using a closed fist you need to watch what areas you're striking. Hit the wrong spot and you break your hand, which for most of us is a bad thing, especially when it comes to working the next day. If you hit with a palm stike you have a much lesser chance of breaking anything. The bottom line is, I would try to hit with an open hand but I will probably do what ever comes natural at that moment.
Posted by: drgndrew
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/07/07 02:16 AM
I prefer open hand now a days, i used to be a puncher (having a strong thai background) but now I'm pretty well open hand.
I do still like using the punch to the jaw as a sniper option, cross or hook, big two knuckles hitting on the chin anywhere between or on the dribble lines, It's also my focus (Kime?) training tool. needs to be drilled well for reality use, but if your able to land with your body behind the two impacting knuckles your virtually guaranteed a KO.
Then again you can do the same thing with a palm heal
Plus with Open hands you have more weapons and options open to you
you have your palm AND 4 fingers and a thumb to poke, scratch, prod, grab and pull with.
There is less energy loss with a palm as there are less joints to past through, less change of injury too (eg boxers break) and you can impact just as hard as a fist (through it doesn't feel like it to the deliverer.
a fist is just a fist.
My thoughts anyway.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/07/07 05:48 AM
I think its probably more natural to clinch the fist autonomically during fights as it is. Its probably better to train your closed hand stuff (besides, I don't know anyone who boxes with open hands).
You can ALSO hurt your hand using open hand strikes.
This isn't to say that you shouldn't train for open hand situations. The clinch requires the open hands. Its just that for long range stuff, I'm not going to be outside and try slapping. The shots are going to be straight and thrown with clinched fists. Once inside, that's another story. Of course from there you can throw elbows and knees anyway, so the point becomes practically moot.
If the possibility of breaking your hand in a fight is something that scares you, you may want to avoid fights altogether, because you can get hurt in many OTHER ways as well. Fights are to be survived. You heal and treat your injuries afterward. Just my opinions.
Posted by: Blackrainbow
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/07/07 06:48 AM
I devote about equal time to both. I also have injured myself using both.If you really train hard you will have injuries. If you get into a lot of fights, you will have injuries. If you get old like me and continue to do this stuff you will surely have injuries. Hey, after all, it is the martial arts. As far as which is most effective that is totally up to the person using it.
Posted by: drgndrew
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/07/07 07:04 AM
Quote:
Fights are to be survived. You heal and treat your injuries afterward. Just my opinions.
nicely said
Posted by: Gavin
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/07/07 12:45 PM
Without gloves on I'd definitely go with open hand strikes and work slaps and palms to close distance down. If you've got physical contact I'll generally use a close fist as I don't just have to rely on sight alone to help me land the shot, and therefore have a greater chance of hitting the target. Making use of you're tactile senses gives your brain far more information perception to aim the shot, without contact you're relying on visual information to aim with and get a "best efforts" attempt. In the dynamic environment of combat factors change too quickly to guarantee a clean punch unless you've got impeccable timing. Throwing an open handed shot means that you can land off target with a greatly reduced chance of damaging the weapon.
I believe the BCA and other combative groups use the terminology "indexing"? Basically means you use an "indexing" hand to make physical contact, all part of the line up of a pre-emptive shot. Once you've got contact with the person you're going to hit you can make use of Proprioception, which roughly speaking is you're bodies ability to perceive where it and it's limbs are in relation to the environment around that it has contact with. It's how your brain knows when you're sitting up, standing or laying down. As martial artists we can use this sense to help us know where we and anything we have physical contact with is. Rather handy in a scrap!
Posted by: WhiteDragon11
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/07/07 06:15 PM
I think whichever (open hand or fist) you practice more you should use in self defense. Obviously if you practice only in a fist open hand wont do much good. If you do practice both though, I think that open hand is better for self defense. In self defense, it takes a lot of grappling and locks which require open hands. You can attack the neck, eyes, nose, etc with open hands probably more effectively than with fists.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/07/07 06:58 PM
Different strikes are meant for different parts of the body. So both open and closed hands have a place.
If you use a closed hand to strike a part of the body that is better suited for an open hand strike, then you made the wrong choice.
So the answer to the question is "it depends on where you are striking and how".
It's not really possible to teach these things in a forum, but perhaps there is a book or video that will help you.
But what you can do is: get a partner to work with and have him just stand in front of you. Pick a target and place both your open hand and a fist on that target and see which one fits better. You'll find that a fist fits better in the solar plexus than say a "knife hand". But the knife hand is a better fit on the side of the neck.
This is just 2 examples. Play with it and see what you come up with.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 11/08/07 11:25 AM
As mentioned I use both my fist and fingers at punching range and open hand as I enter. But I practice this also which is the point I'm trying to make. We all perferr to use certain techniques but if you don't practice using them you will revert to how you train. And if thats close fist and high kicking thats what you will do. Its my O that you have to train two ways if you train to compete and for the street. You have to mentally note when to do what and why in training so when you have to pull the trigger on the street its there.
I'd rather make a guy stumble then kick him lightly in the chest or head. I'd rather strike upward on the nose and rake down on the eyes, then to punch is forehead. As mentioned target selection after he is hurt should also be considered. Grabbing and positioning for strike delievery is also a plus, I like to be outside an opponents shoulder with an arm under control rather then a clinch is optima for me. Every one different the Clinch offers both combatants oppurtunity to strike the off angle arm control offers more striking oppurtunity for the controller imho.
Open hand strike I find quicker, shorter and more confusing for the opponent to keep up with, mixed with the thundering fist and elbow or whatever.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r fist? - 11/20/07 10:36 AM
Quote:
Is open hand more suitable for self defense or the fist?
Judes thoughts
I think it depends on the target area.
It would seem that a lot of people go for the face judging by the response.
Jude
Posted by: Cafa
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 12/20/07 11:22 PM
I prefer fists. They give me additional reach, some 2 or 3 inches I believe, when compared to open hand. Also, less chance of a thumb injury.
When the guy gets closer, then I use open hand.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 12/21/07 09:33 AM
Just my opinion here but, I also think it comes down to HOW you use your fists. If you are punching in more of a defensive manner (kind of like a counter jab) to keep someone off of you, the risk for injury isn't as great.
Think of a good jab almost like a football stiff-arm in principle. You stick them as they come in and move off creating angles.
Its one thing to be punching in this manner and another thing to be punching uncontrolled, swinging for the fences. Straight punching is typically safer than hook-line punching and I generally tell beginners to keep their punches straight. Then your most worrisome thing might be cutting your hands on their teeth. The mouth being highly septic as we all know means that you will have to treat your wounds immediately.
So, strategic punching for a reason OTHER than a knock-out might be a good idea. Perhaps you can use knees to the face for that. Another way of thinking is, you’re in a fight now, worry about injuries afterward and leave nothing left on the table.
-John
Posted by: RazorFoot
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 12/21/07 11:08 AM
I use open hand strikes all the time. Eye rakes, leading finger jabs, heel palms (mostly close in to ribs), and finger whips across the eyes. And if a half fist or leopards paw is considered open hand, I use those too.
I generally try to fit the strike to the target, if I have the time to consider. If not then whatever happens to come out, comes out.
Scottie
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 12/21/07 11:39 AM
I also use open and close hand strikes. A lot of people say that eye strikes have high chance to miss. That's true but the double jab motion is done to correct that, and the surprise of a guy trying to step through a jab that is really a finger jab to the eye. Or he turns his head to avoid the fingers and the next strike is close fist jab to the chin or temple.
I mix open and close hand pending distance and target. As mentioned I try to leave all on the table.
Posted by: matxtx
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 12/21/07 03:06 PM
I think in the moment it will just come out of how you trained and what feels comfy to do.
I might say I would use open hands but I never have and dont think I would.
The best way to use punches I have seen and been shown is as shorter ,sharp stunning shots that keep your body in balance to still defend well and set up the big shot when its open,which could be knees ,elbows or a big shot you know you can now do as they are stunned.Or whatever.It might be dropping them on their head.
Hey,you might even knock them out with one of these stunners.A bonus.
Not looking for big knockout shots that could miss and make you vunerable balance wise and hurt your hands.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 12/21/07 03:31 PM
I think that is the point that was being made. Not would you use open hand techniques in a encounter but do you train them in your cirriculum. Being that most agree that you will fight the way you train.
The times I've seen open hand techniques applied they seem a blur/faster and harder to block then close fist. Making ample power at short range, then the fist.
Either will work when it works.
Posted by: KillroyMindless
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/02/08 11:57 PM
once you do conditioning on your palms they dont get injured as easy. i would rather use palms than fists cus it looks better for sd and most people are mroe likely to walk away because they think you wont fight them good or something people think your more violent with a fist.
Posted by: JAMJTX
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 12:21 AM
Each strike, open and closed hand, has a specific purpose.
Which to use depends on your target and intent.
As a general rule, hard parts of the body are used for hitting hard parts of the body; soft parts of the body are used for striking softer parts of the body.
The contour of an open hand fits better into certain parts of the body when striking. Other parts of the body a fist is more compatible - some areas of the body are better suited for striking with a vertical fist and others a 3/4 twist may be better.
Open hand strikes are best for people who are not skilled at punching. Without being able to maintain a proper fist and alignment, a person is very likely to hurt thier self.
I agree with the "fights are to be survived" quote, but why risk hurting yourself more than you have to. The winner is the one who gets hurt the least.
It's also been said that in the early days of modern karate, the kids were taught to hit with a closed hand as they would be less likely to cause injury in the event of accidents in training. Closed handed techniques were deemed to dangerous.
Posted by: drgndrew
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 03:03 AM
Quote:
As a general rule, hard parts of the body are used for hitting hard parts of the body; soft parts of the body are used for striking softer parts of the body.
Are you sure you didn't get this around the wrong way?? It's always been hard weapon to soft target (eg fist to body) and soft weapon to hard targets (eg palms to head)
Quote:
It's also been said that in the early days of modern karate, the kids were taught to hit with a closed hand as they would be less likely to cause injury in the event of accidents in training. Closed handed techniques were deemed to dangerous.
your last sentence hear contradicts your first (in the quote) Dude.
as a side note
Mike tyson broke his hand punching some dude in the head in a street fight, I reckon we are probably more likely to do the same then he was.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 07:03 AM
Ordinarily I'd say that would be a good argument...BUT Mike Tyson is retarded, lets just state the obvious here.
Anyway...
Sure you can hurt your hand folks -- its a fight, there is always that chance that you might get hurt, hand or otherwise.
Thats why its important to train to elbow, knee and headbutt. Savate kicking is pretty nice too. There are obviously other striking weapons than just the hands.
If I am trading with my opponent and he is throwing fists, I don't know if I want to be in the middle of that, throwing open hand shots. For one reason, its hard to do when the fur is flying and you are having to throw combinations as your opponent is doing the same thing (I think its fair to say that trading happens in real fights -- not that you'd want to necessarily, just that it can and does).
In a perfect world, I am able to get the jump on my opponent, have greater will and greater skill. That just isn't what I prepare for.
That said, I do train other shots than closed fist strikes. I use forearms and open hand slaps as well. I just believe that if everything is equal, its harder to get those open hands through a good guard and count when things are "busy".
Just my opinion.
-John
Posted by: jude33
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 09:43 AM
Quote:
Are you sure you didn't get this around the wrong way?? It's always been hard weapon to soft target (eg fist to body) and soft weapon to hard targets (eg palms to head)
Interesting.
My thought from my limited experience and to answer the topic.
Specific hand shape/ part of the hand / part of head/ part of striking limb to specific target.
This info is found in most martial arts teachings.
Quote:
as a side note
Mike tyson broke his hand punching some dude in the head in a street fight, I reckon we are probably more likely to do the same then he was.
It was a heavyweight boxer named Mitch Green that Mike Tyson also boxed.
Mitch Green happened to be in the area and an argument ensued, in which Green threw a punch and Tyson responded with a straight right landing on the bridge of Green's nose
http://www.geocities.com/mike_tysons_iron2/fightgreenpics.html
The damage was on his face
If it was the eye/ nose then that shouldnt damage a conditioned fist unless struck with the wrong part eg the outer two knuckles. There is a choice of parts of the human body that can be used to attack this target area.
Specific target means specific use of the body.
Jude
No disrespect to Mike Tyson. I think the guy had great gloved boxing skills but gloved boxers tend not to train bare knuckle or condition their hands.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 11:17 AM
I dont think this is a thread hi jack as it shows the difference between bare naked open hand and gloved fists. And the difference between results of the methods of training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAaQ9hr2DUI&NR=1The dude in question. Posted purely for educational purposes.
Pity the street fight wasnt on video. But I guess Green more than likely went to the clinch with him then. Cos he couldnt out box him even with gloves on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx5m_u7Ss0I&feature=relatedAnd he didint come through with his boast gloved or un gloved. Maybe he should have boasted he would win the court claim though. He sued Tyson for damage to his face.
Wimp!!
Jude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc karate ka breaking wood, which is hard, using fingers, open hand etc.
Notice no gloves and no broken hands and the manufacturer's who cut the wood dont sue him for him smashing it.
Oh I forgot to mention their head guy is still doing the stuff at the age of 79 years old with his all limbs in good working order.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdVd4sYcXOE&feature=relatedTohyama Seiko Sensei Uechi Ryu 10º Dan kata Sanseiryu
79 Years old
Jude
Posted by: martialartspeon
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 12:18 PM
I train the heavy bag with open hand and fist. When I'm sparing though I'm always wearing gloves. I need to get some gloveless sparing in since they are not very realistic for real life self defense situations.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 01:23 PM
Jokgas stated - I just believe that if everything is equal, its harder to get those open hands through a good guard and count when things are "busy".
Just my opinion.
I agree for head on trade offs from the guard it seem instinct to use the fist, but the guards is for blocking fist. I believe just like any training if you practice to break down the guard with elbows & open r close hand shots that turn into swipes and jerks it works great.
You throw a hook punch he shifts his guard to catch it, you rake a finger across his eye ball (yeah here we go again), you throw a upper cut he blocks the punch and it turns into a claw grab to the throat or dbl palm strikes to clinching knees. These shots may not end the fight but they are good shots that he has to deal with.
Yeah I know he won't be staying behind the guard without throwing back. But in a fight we both know you must mentally accept that you are going to get hit back, you just don't want it to be too solid. Personally I'll trade/catch a hook off my shoulder or forehead for a eye jab, thats just me I think thats a exchange in my favor most time I beleive.
Martialartpe... Thats a good idea even if its just working the heavy bag fingers free.
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 06:05 PM
i would agree open hands have a harder time getting through the guard, we have other tools for that. open hands do have benifet though, like as a preemtive shot, when the cops ask the witnesses what ahppened they say "well, he slaped him" it might work out in yor favor, a closed fist might imply higher levels of force.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 06:14 PM
Open hands also allow for greater sensitivity, particularly when you're working to clinch. I don't have a problem with the idea of throwing open-handed shots (or closed shots for that matter). I think both approaches have their strong (and weak) points.
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/03/08 10:35 PM
what would you consider the weak points of a open hand? of a fist? high up on the list for open hands i would have to place the chance of bending the wrist on contact, damaging it.
Posted by: jude33
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/04/08 02:25 AM
Quote:
what would you consider the weak points of a open hand? of a fist? high up on the list for open hands i would have to place the chance of bending the wrist on contact, damaging it.
some of the weak points of an
Open hand/ fist from my expereinces and others.
Hitting with the fingers and not the palm
lack of finger strength
lack of wrist strenght
catching the teeth
wrong place ment of the thumb and fingers while striking
no overall hand conditioning
fists
outer two knuckles damage because of striking with the wrong part of the fist.
striking with the 2 nd knuckle down from the finger nail instead of the knuckle area
thumb bust wrong placement of the thumb
catching the opponents teeth
weak wrists
no overall hand conditioning
Jude
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/04/08 02:41 PM
I'd agree with half of that. I base my conclusion in the teaching weaker or older people we teach that using your natural weapons mostly open hand strikes are the most effective. Usually the only close hand strike is the hammer fist. If this is true with the old and weak it is true with the young and fit.
Alot of Chinese palms are done without the thumb being tucked and shuto, palm, snap fore knuckle strikes don't require alot of conditioning (though I have worked mines).
Striking with the fist full powered can break your wrist, fingers, hand and harm the elbow joint. Misses with round house shots can throw your shoulder out.
You will recieve more damage punching someone in the mouth then a say a Palm strike(especailly a snapping one/same true with punch). As mentioned even experinced strikers that don't train ungloved have damaged their hands striking.
With all my conditioning I had damaged my fist scraped skin and sore fist but nothing ever broke. Sore wrist in using open hand and froe arms nothings perfect in a fight.
Posted by: drgndrew
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/04/08 08:51 PM
Neko mentioning the hammer fist has reminded me of an observation.
Many people suggest that it is more "natural" or instinctive to clench a fist then to strike open handed. in general I would so No it isn't we usually use our palms to push things and we crawl on our hands not our fists, our hands are designed to grip things which require them to be open in the first place, these are just a few points.
In times of aggression however I would have to say that part of our posturing involves clenching our fists among other things. Aggression and conflict go hand in hand. but consider how the fist is used in a natural setting, for example children who have not yet been exposed to or encultured with "punching" and to primates, they do not strike with the knuckles but tend to strike in a hammer fist fashion.
Punching as we know it is actually a learned method, and although it utilizes a natural action (clenching in aggression) it uses it is a less instinctual way.
just an observation
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/04/08 09:10 PM
Speaking of the hammerfist....
I'm using that a LOT more these days. That and the open hand slap to the occipital region behind the skull. That will definitely make you see the stars.
Basically in my personal game, I can see throwing a combination of the two. Probably the best choice being a compromise between open and closed, depending.
Example of the jab. I personally believe thats a better shot with the fist. The right could be effectively used with the open hand as well as the hook. I certainly don't want to close my mind off to any approach and value testing everything.
I still love the in-fighting with uppercuts, elbows and knees. There are so many options from in close.
Posted by: student_of_life
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/04/08 10:28 PM
Speaking of the hammer fist...
it's one i've been havin fun with as well. using soto uke kind of movement to bring it in on all kinds of fun angles.
Posted by: janxspirit
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/05/08 10:45 AM
Quote:
Speaking of the hammer fist...
it's one i've been havin fun with as well. using soto uke kind of movement to bring it in on all kinds of fun angles.
Hammer fist is great for both standing striking and striking on the ground.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Is open hand more suitable for selfdefense r f - 03/05/08 12:57 PM
Quote:
Neko mentioning the hammer fist has reminded me of an observation.
Many people suggest that it is more "natural" or instinctive to clench a fist then to strike open handed. in general I would so No it isn't we usually use our palms to push things and we crawl on our hands not our fists, our hands are designed to grip things which require them to be open in the first place, these are just a few points.
In times of aggression however I would have to say that part of our posturing involves clenching our fists among other things. Aggression and conflict go hand in hand. but consider how the fist is used in a natural setting, for example children who have not yet been exposed to or encultured with "punching" and to primates, they do not strike with the knuckles but tend to strike in a hammer fist fashion.
Punching as we know it is actually a learned method, and although it utilizes a natural action (clenching in aggression) it uses it is a less instinctual way.
just an observation
I hadn't put that much thought into it but you are right untrained natural motions do look like overhead hammer fist strikes. Great observation. Because of our use of the palm to grab, push and crawal maybe one of the reason its naturaly strong.
I guess he did use Tacos, he didn't get hit or had to hit.