Underestimating Front Choke

This wasn't a personal dig to anyone here...

I was just saying that all those so-called SD classes & seminars designed for "self-confidence & empowerment" USUALLY teach choke defenses this way (I've seen too many of them). Most of the skills are marginal @ best & pathetic/comical @ their worst.

I too have taught personal safety (their term) within the setting of inpatient psychiatric units where striking the aggressor is considered the last resort. However, I teach that if someone gets you by the throat, all bets are off due to the extremely dangerous nature of this attack. I've seen a number of like attacks & have never seen anyone stand there throttling their victim.

If avoidance was impossible & you're instantly in the vulnerable situation (often on the ground), you gotta do what you gotta do & that's often going for the eyes, stabbing w/ a pen, squeezing testicles or breasts, etc. Don't try to remember that super technique that worked 5 yrs ago in the Saturday morning SD class. You'll black-out before you're able to do any fancy MA tricks. And after you're unconscious, you could be raped or dead.

That's all I'm saying.

owari

I understand I didn't take it personal and admit that you made a solid point, in the viciousness and transition of a 2hfc.

I was just stating that it comes in several variations and like you know can be done efficently and deadly. But just because its a deadly attack doesn't mean we can't prepare for it some what. Like you I believe time in reacting is important usually what works is quick, simple and effective.
We are in accord, in that we state, don't under-estimate the 2hfc!

I try and practice against the 2 hand choke to the neck. I know it can come many ways but that is the main way I see it coming (doesnt mean it is that way). I do keep training, get them a couple times every day as well as normal training. I will keep training them even after they become second nature to do.
Hopefully it wont come but if it does I should be ready for it. But true if it comes a way I am not prepared I hopefully will have time to do something to get out of it. Like you said strikes to eyes, groin, any way to loosen them up and attack them.

I've seen Nami Ju Jime put the uke out in the time it takes to throw him. Remember, many chokes reduce blood flow to the brain with pressure on the carotids. Loss of conciousness is very fast.

G'day guys,

I've enjoyed a few quite ones so have decided to venture out of my Reigendo cave, and join in for a word or two.

Humans have a natural inbuilt desire to prevent other peoples (animals) hands (claws and teeth) coming towards our throat. infact we automatically finch to swat away any object coming at our head and throat area. For some one to apply a f2HC they must do just that

It amazes me that so much SD is "stuff up recovery". of course this is important but it is secondary. One of my teenaged students asked how to defend this type of attack (a f2hc). I said to him to "put it on me and we'll see". Every-time he moved his hands towards me i simply redirected them and re positioned my self. He said something along the lines of "thats not fair your not letting me do it" I simply smiled and said "exactly". ( hey I'll be honest it was one of those teacher-grasshopper type moments, but he got the point. )

Heres the thing, in self defence lessons everywhere, it is almost always taught to intercept a punch, to block, redirect whatever before it lands, yet choke holds and the like are nearly always taught from the "On"position (not always but in general) the line of attack for a 2hfc is virtually identical to the line of attack for a punch ( as is the lapel grab, finger point push etc. It is a straight attack along the centerline. All straight attacks along the centre line can be negated by simple redirection, either of the target or the weapon path. the exact method of defence is up to you and your particular style.

On a similar but slightly different tangent, in the same way as how prevention is lacking in most defence for chokes and the defence starts after it is applied. how often to you see defences for punches after they have made contact. It's important to know what to do if a choke gets "put on" but it is equally important to know what to do if a punch lands. ( FC sporting arts to more to address this then self defence arts from what I've seen)

Well my glass is empty ( no I'm not being metaphorical , my scotch needs refilling ). I hope I have contributed to the discussion in a positive and informative manner, thats is my aim.

Good point and we look at it the same way. I've taken Shoshinkan's HAOV list (a "sticky" in this section) and am trying to develop some basic responses to them for our dojo. One of the first observations was that I should reduce them to common groups as much as possible to simplify the reponses. The idea is that it is better to have a few good responses that are honed to reflex, than dozens that you can't remember under stress.

Doing so seems to place the "two-handed lapel grab", "two handed chest push" and "two front choke" as virtually identical IF, you deal with them BEFORE they reach you. As you point out, this is certainly preferable, though it doesn't eliminate needing to train the escapes as well - since no plan always works perfectly.

A major eye-opener for me from Neko is that chokes must be clearly realized as "deadly" attacks - not just another "haymaker". And if you are receiving one, you are in real danger of dying - RIGHT NOW!!! This is just as if the assailant had a weapon. We had looked at the front choke as such a "dumb" and vulnerable attack that we had been remiss in accepting this.

Spot on joss.

Many attacks are virtually Identical it is only the end result that varies. It deserves another thread by its self, but ( as I see it ) it is more important to recognise the line the attack is coming from/along and where there energy is coming from and going to. ( energy meaning the energy of the attack not the chi) But getting into this now will just take this threat OT.

Neko is right a choke is deadly and it should be taken as an attempt on you life and defended as such. this options up many more more defensive tactics to you ( the chokee). It becomes more moral , ethical and legally acceptable to (for example) gouge out an eye when someone is obviously intent on taking your life or at least is showing no regard as to the the potential loss of your life as a result of there actions.

Sempia or Sensei Joss & Sifu drgndrew - You make a good point in your scenario misdirecting a in-coming attempt at your head or thorat is instinct, but a so is a deer escaping a Tigers charge. Most times IF they see it at distance, the Cat goes hungery. What makes the 2hfc/Tiger attack work is the element of surprise, we sometimes practice it coming around a corner greeted by 2hfc, you wake up (as it was appiled on me once, guy got hurt pretty bad) 2hfc, or the crash and bang 2hfc. As I its been talked about on this forum the simple punch (in all its variance) is a basic easy to stop technique but it accounts for more KOs or setup for the KO then almost any technique taught (from my personal experience). To paraphase a great simiplton Simple is as Simple does.
Admittly it is almost the same motion as a two hand thrust to the throat easy enough to avoid, but once appiled deadly or effective as double punch that lands.
Students hit the heavy bag with a one hand punch, then try it with a U-punch much more power.

The 2hfc can be appiled to tackle or to slam u against a wall, both attacks given 2nd and 3rd attempts at grasping the throat. I know in a way I changed the basic concept, but a punch usually don't land by its self, unless you set it up with a combo. Then it becomes very effective thus it is with the 2hfc, this is only my opinion, don't have to be right just something else to consider.

It might sound like I'm paranoid, but I think theres a difference in that and being prepared. Even if the difference is ever so slight. I don't see anything wrong with that lesson U taught. Don't let them grab you. Its our stage 2 method, but what happens if you are surprised or wake up in the SOL choke!!!

I started writing this before both your last reply, I should have deleted most of it, but anyway.

For what it's worth I would rather have someone attempt to choke me from the front vs a rear naked. So many techniques that can counter a front vs rear attack.

Yes, and for obvious reason the attack from the back is one of the most vunerable. Really in a real street fight the back is a vunerable region, but alot of people that don't know how to attack it properly. They most of the time try to punch the back of the head one of the hardest area on the head.

But the RNC is threatening, and will take an eye giuge over the shoulder or whatever means it takes to loosen it.

btw, Neko,

Remember: "You're not paranoid if they're really following you."

During my bouncing night club years we broke up many fights by applying a fast rear choke to seperate fighters. No matter what anyone says they are extremely difficult to escape from if you are not trained in the arts. (Most)Most people just panic & struggle to much thus pass out or go limp rather quickly...fight over. Yes... eye gouge, instep stop, rake the face, groin grap, heel to groin, back kick to knee & etc all will help escape the rear choke. There are other technique as well (kata bunaki from Sanchin) that can be applied as well to evade the choke.