Gangs

Posted by: Ed_Morris

Gangs - 02/04/06 10:50 PM

anyone know the weaponless arts of choice (if any) for Yakuza, Triads, Mafia, etc ? preferably, you won't use movies as a basis for your answer.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Gangs - 02/04/06 10:59 PM

I think they just guns around where I live. Not too long ago Little Rock,AR was the murder capital of the U.S.,mostly from gang violence.

I'd say the weaponless art of choice is numbers. 10 vs. 1 etc.....Who can beat that?
Posted by: Cord

Re: Gangs - 02/05/06 01:33 AM

Quote:

anyone know the weaponless arts of choice (if any) for Yakuza, Triads, Mafia, etc ? preferably, you won't use movies as a basis for your answer.




My father was in the Hong Kong police force mid 50's to early 70's, and spent some time on their anti-triad task force. He has said on many occasions that the non-firearm related violence in hong kong consisted mainly of weapons of opertunity. Huge numbers of assault/affray using cleavers and kitchen utensils, but that the triad groups tended to have vested interests on the docks, and would weild power by infiltrating/intimadating the union and workforce. The weapon of choice if things went violent in that circumstance was a 15 inch 'scraper'- a heavy spike of steel with a razor sharp side to it designed for cleaning the hulls of ships. By using this,terms like self defence and 'weapon of opertunity' could be used, and with no one willing to speak out, many got away with it.

Outside of that, he saw used a length if chain, with a heavy spike on the end that could be 'whipped straight' like a short range retractable spear, also many of the enforcers would have built up a ridge of hard caloused skin across the knuckles and also what he describes as the 'karate chop' area, which I have always interperated as the shoto striking surface. He is of the belief that this was more for intimidation and image than use, as weapons were never far away.

As for the effective nature of these things, he could not say for sure, because if someone attempted to attack an officer,or involve themselves in an affray that caused danger to the public, they were instructed to use deadly force, so simply shot them before they got close enough to unleash their fists of fury
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Gangs - 02/05/06 02:29 PM

I have heard by word of mouth from someone who I believe to be in the know that the Yakuza use various Japanese arts, in particular Karate. I do not believe it is mandatory training however and I understand that it is usually secondary to weapon handling.

I've also heard that the Triad used to recruit impressionable youngsters out of MA schools in the countries around where I live as well as in Hong Kong. I do not know whether this is still happening.

Of course this is all word of mouth, I advise keeping away from those people who actually know for sure.
Posted by: who238

Re: Gangs - 02/06/06 10:16 AM

Cow meat clevers are the choice for Triads. Melon knives and piont pipes are also favourates.
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: Gangs - 02/06/06 10:57 AM

I'm not so sure about most yakuza using karate. Some of them do Oyama style karate. Some of them have connections with very old styles of martial arts that are not public, for example a few schools of koppo.

The main weapons of yakuza are guns. They're about the only people in Japan to have them. Other weapons of yakuza include baseball bats, knives of any kind, and occasionally you get the traditional Japanese martial art weapons..But that is rare. Mostly just guns.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Gangs - 02/06/06 11:21 AM

May I ask the source of your knowledge, paradox?
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: Gangs - 02/06/06 11:40 AM

Quote:

May I ask the source of your knowledge, paradox?




*paradox takes off left glove and shows pinkyless hand*
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: Gangs - 02/06/06 08:50 PM

The source of my knowledge.. I asked some yakuza. They're easy to find, they have big tatoos all over their bodies.
Posted by: traz

Re: Gangs - 02/06/06 09:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

May I ask the source of your knowledge, paradox?




*paradox takes off left glove and shows pinkyless hand*




lol, just thought I'd note that this made me laugh :P
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 12:55 AM

You just walk up to them and ask "hey there mister yakuza man, what type of weaponless arts do you train in?"

Not saying I don't believe you, just seems a bit weird.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 03:01 AM

Quote:

I'm not so sure about most yakuza using karate.




I heard this from a friend who almost certainly had Yakuza in his Dojo when he was training in Japan.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 04:43 AM

Quote:

they have big tatoos all over their bodies.




OH SH1T! I am Yakuza?!?! and i didnt even know it

I have a very good friend who is of Japanese mother and english father, he has a traditional japanese body suit, a little goatee, and looks like a complete Yakuza bada$$.
In fact, he works in a cinema, drinks bacardi and coke and has as much MA knowledge/criminal tendencies as a dead hamster
If someone were to come up to him and ask flat out if he were yakuza, I know he would say yes- it would appeal to his sense of humour and he would answer any question from there on in with absolute authority. i am not saying thats what happened to you PDB, but i am saying something similar is a possibility.
In modern day, tattoos are no longer just for western sailors and eastern villains, they are becoming more pervasive and accepted in both mainstream cultures.
Posted by: globetrotter

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 09:21 AM

I have a friend who blew off his pinky in a stupid accident. 10 years later, he ends up working in japan for a few years. some people gave him some wierd looks.
Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 11:20 AM

Most don't have traditional MA training, they cary weapons, and work in mass numbers, which is all you need.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 11:56 AM

Quote:

Most don't have traditional MA training, they cary weapons, and work in mass numbers, which is all you need.




The same question I had for paradoxbox, Mr. az, what is the source of your knowledge? Lots of mafioso out in Arizona?
Posted by: Cord

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 12:28 PM

With respect Joel, it does stand to reason. The idea of such organisations is to not get caught/punished for whatever they are up to. Open handed violence is loud, long, leaves more forensic traces and is inefficient.
I can only pass on my Fathers dealings with chinese organised crime, but he paints a picture far less glamorous than the film industry would have you believe.

Their best interests are always served through the threat, not the carrying out of violence. Killing people who owe you money is counterproductive, killing one bad debtor, then letting other debtors know it has happened when you turn up at their doors, tooled up with 10 'colleagues' ensures prompt regular payment.

i was offered some collection work off the back of bouncing, I didnt take the offer, but know some who have, and the speed in which they got immersed in that world was scary. Organised criminals share common traits, irrespective of culture, principle of which, is that all their actions/interests are focussed on monetary gain.

Gambling, prostitution, loan sharking, drug dealing. All big earners, all best controlled through fear. Weapons and numbers sounds more effective than tattoos and black belts to me.
Posted by: globetrotter

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 01:52 PM

I think that, in the past, gangsters used to train more thouroughly - you has early mafiosi who were boxers and hung out at boxing clubs, and you see the pictures of the early street gangsters they were very muscular. I think that with todays weapons they don't need to be - the gansters that you see (and I literally mean the ones that you see, I have no idea about the yakuza and triads and the real serious mafia) the street gangs in new york, the motorcycle gangs, and those mafiosas that get in the paper don't seem to be very fit. the sreet gangs and scrawny, the motorcylce gangs and the mafia seem to all be overweight and old. I am guessing that they use firearms, and don't bother working out and learning to fight.
Posted by: Tengu51

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 05:43 PM

I just saw a news report last night about a gang called MS-13. Apparently it is a latin american based gang that has spread over the united states in the past 10 or so years. Its' members prefer the use of machetes (sp?) to kill people. It isn't directly related to unarmed styles, but interesting none the less.
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 05:54 PM

Quote:

You just walk up to them and ask "hey there mister yakuza man, what type of weaponless arts do you train in?"

Not saying I don't believe you, just seems a bit weird.




That's pretty much exactly what I've done. You can find them hanging around certain onsen in Japan. You can also find them outside of Japan. A lot of them dislike foreigners. But if you know how to manipulate them a bit they like to talk about what they are, etc.. For most of them, simply asking about their tattoos is enough to get them to start talking. There's a ton of yakuza hanging around roppongi..seedy hostess bars are a good place to start, if you're feeling brave.

BTW huge body tatoos like yakuza (and Cord's friend) have are totally uncommon in Japan, having tatoos like that can only mean you're yakuza or you're a complete rebel (usually an outcast in the eyes of most Japanese people).. It's not like over here where people with big tats over their entire backs and legs are a dime a dozen. In fact that's why most yakuza who go to onsen only go to onsen for yakuza, most people get freaked right out the minute they see the tatoos.
Posted by: RockHard Huy

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 08:57 PM

No experience with the larger syndicates/organizations; but, some with the local Asian street gangs and such. From what I've seen personally, there are three general groups of fighters.
- Unskilled (We aren't born karate masters )
- Boxing
- Watered down Kung-Fu

Fights almost never stay exclusively hand to hand, however. Usually weapons are pulled out and the crowd McScatters. (Guns, Bats, cro-bars, Butcher Knives, etc.)
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 10:26 PM

I'm not saying that I don't believe them, Cord, and their answers make sense, I'm just checking to see how they actually came up with their facts since they did not state that in their first posts.

Paradox, thank you for clarifying.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Gangs - 02/07/06 11:45 PM

I guess you've never seen Thai Mafia's right? That's because there are none. In Thailand we do have the Chinese Triad and they're annoying as they walk around taking "protection fees" from illegal shops. If you don't pay, *smash*, your shop is torn down and you're left with a threat.

These thugs aren't trained. One guy is like a skinny Thai that anyone can beat. Beat him, 10 min later, another 15 comes. In Thailand, a popular saying is "Strength comes in numbers".

Weapon of choice? Well, knife and guns. Anything primitive and easy to reach for.

Muay Thai trained? no, far from it. They think kicking a sandbag makes them a boxer. They are a pathetic bunch of losers when compared to MT Boxers. They have no honour whatsoever.

-Taison out
Posted by: Cord

Re: Gangs - 02/08/06 12:31 AM

Quote:

[..seedy hostess bars are a good place to start, if you're feeling brave.




Erm, surely you would have to feel something more than 'brave' to find yourself n such an establishment

As for the Tattoo in japanese culture, thanks for your perspective, i was lead to believe that things were relaxing over there, particularly with the youth and their perception of tats (in Manga/anime/video games, it is now more often than not the hero who sports the ink), but there are still prejudiced views in the west towards them, so stands to reason there would be in the east, I was informed that they were getting more common, but i trust your judgement. Is the negativity just towards traditional japanese work, or to western inspired tats as well? just curious, feel free to ignore the question, or pM me to prevent derailing the thread
Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Gangs - 02/09/06 07:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Most don't have traditional MA training, they cary weapons, and work in mass numbers, which is all you need.




The same question I had for paradoxbox, Mr. az, what is the source of your knowledge? Lots of mafioso out in Arizona?




As a matter of fact yes, Sammy the Bull was caught here running a drug ring. My cousin was in the Aryan brotherhood, before he cleaned up his life, and there are other gangs here too. It just makes sense also if you think about it. Why try and beat a guy up using MA when a gun/knife/baseball/bat plus 10 "associates" works better. These guys don't have strict codes of honor and sense of combat and fair play, they're thugs
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Gangs - 02/09/06 10:48 AM

As I said before, I never said it doesn't make sense to use weapons and numbers. But if you read the actual topic of the thread, the question is about weaponless arts of choice of gang members.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Gangs - 02/09/06 11:23 AM

i wasnt having a pop at you Joel, I just think that the answer to the initial question is pretty much that moral ambiguity, aggression and a ruthless streak are the overiding physical/mental tools used in this lifestyle, these are then expressed through weapons, not open hands.

In Britain, The Krays, Lenny Maclean, and many other 'Face's' were good boxers in their day, and Boxing and the London underworld have very srong links, so that would be the skillset here; though guns and razors were still preferred over mano a mano during the 50's and 60's when they were at their 'busiest'.
Posted by: elly12

Re: Gangs - 02/10/06 12:33 AM

My wife is from Okinawa and says most tend to wear long sleeves to cover thier tatoos, and PDB could honestly have spokne to someone with tatoos, not necessarily Yakuza. I lived in Osaka for 2 year 4 block from the America Village and the one time they were pointed out to me, they were a very well dressed group. My brother-in-law told me the bars they frequented were owned by usually owned by one of the bosses and pretty nice. PDB could have gone into one of the bars and spoke with what we (americans) like to call a wanna-be! Sometimes this happens. I myself have never spoken to such people, although I lived and worked Japan for 10 years.
Posted by: globetrotter

Re: Gangs - 02/10/06 08:31 AM

Quote:

i wasnt having a pop at you Joel, I just think that the answer to the initial question is pretty much that moral ambiguity, aggression and a ruthless streak are the overiding physical/mental tools used in this lifestyle, these are then expressed through weapons, not open hands.

In Britain, The Krays, Lenny Maclean, and many other 'Face's' were good boxers in their day, and Boxing and the London underworld have very srong links, so that would be the skillset here; though guns and razors were still preferred over mano a mano during the 50's and 60's when they were at their 'busiest'.





I think that american gangsters had ties to boxers too, in their day. I just get the feeling that, with guns being so avialable and cops being so limited in their responses, their is no reason for a gangster to work for years to build up boxing skills and strenght, he just pops down a few hundred bucks for a gun.
Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Gangs - 02/10/06 03:36 PM

Quote:

As I said before, I never said it doesn't make sense to use weapons and numbers. But if you read the actual topic of the thread, the question is about weaponless arts of choice of gang members.




Thats the point were making, they have don't have specialized weaponless trainig. There arent these secret MA's being taught to Yakuza, and Triad guys. There just thugs
Posted by: paradoxbox

Re: Gangs - 02/10/06 07:54 PM

Quote:

My wife is from Okinawa and says most tend to wear long sleeves to cover thier tatoos, and PDB could honestly have spokne to someone with tatoos, not necessarily Yakuza. I lived in Osaka for 2 year 4 block from the America Village and the one time they were pointed out to me, they were a very well dressed group. My brother-in-law told me the bars they frequented were owned by usually owned by one of the bosses and pretty nice. PDB could have gone into one of the bars and spoke with what we (americans) like to call a wanna-be! Sometimes this happens. I myself have never spoken to such people, although I lived and worked Japan for 10 years.




Let's just say I know for sure who I was talking to.

By the way for those who don't know already, "onsen" means hot springs, and in Japan, when you go to a hot spring you don't wear anything, so whether or not they are well dressed in public is irrelevant (though they do tend to dress well).

Other telltale yakuza traits are the white mercedes with tinted windows and steering wheels on the left hand side. It's really not that hard to find yakuza.

I don't get the mystique about them or why people think they're really rare. They're all over the place if you look for them. I specifically sought them out because I had some questions.

We have yakuza here in Vancouver too.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: Gangs - 02/10/06 09:28 PM

and ninja's are more common than people think too....they drive black volkswagons and never use turn signals.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Gangs - 02/11/06 03:41 AM

Seeing Ninja on the street doesnt concern me, itw when you dont see them that its time to get nervous
Posted by: elly12

Re: Gangs - 02/11/06 07:25 PM

You are right about that Vancouver deal, and you know that there are those wanna bes out there too. Tell me you didn't run into a few before you got the real deal!! You know they have their version of small time thugs that work with them as well!! Don't worry I do know onsen.
Posted by: JasonM

Re: Gangs - 02/11/06 07:43 PM

Now Cord, you know that is an excessive use of the faces. Oh wait, maybe you won't get edited like I did cuz you are a mod...
Posted by: funstick5000

Re: Gangs - 02/12/06 08:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

May I ask the source of your knowledge, paradox?




*paradox takes off left glove and shows pinkyless hand*




lol, just thought I'd note that this made me laugh :P




thanks