Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it?

Posted by: Ed Glasheen

Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/01/06 10:46 AM

So, you screwed up and are faced with multiple aggressors. They have not attacked you yet but are posturing.....typical street "thug" senerio. What is your next move?

I realize that this is a what if situation with many variables. My goal is to see what you guys are doing, thinking and or training to handle this situation.

Posted by: SKYLER

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/01/06 11:17 AM

Run until the fastest one catches up and take him/her down
(i dont hit women) then let the faster ones catch up and u take themall down one on one

Posted by: JamesLightningBolton

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/01/06 09:32 PM

I'd run also.. but without the stopping to take anybody down. Its just not sensible, who knows how "tough" any of these attackers are.. But sure, if you are positive you could take each of the people down within a couple seconds each and your keen for a fight.. haha go for your life

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/02/06 11:39 AM

I think I would try to startle my attackers with something like throwing loose change and/or putting obstacles between myself and them and then run. The reason being that running is best done with a head start.

Posted by: Intrepidinv1

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/02/06 02:38 PM

Based on the drills and training I've done I would say that you have to move and keep moving. If there is space to run then run. Using objects such as cars, walls, etc. to break up their attack. Utilize available weapons. Attack and move. If you stay still and wait on the attack they will probably overwhelm you.

Posted by: VigilanteSilver

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/02/06 02:57 PM

I would probably try and run first, since I'm female and not very big. If I couldn't get away, I would try to get someplace against a wall or something so they couldn't surround me, and then just fight fist and teeth anything that comes near me. It's a long shot, but it's better than being surrounded on all sides, and maybe if I fight hard enough the rest of the pack will be deterred.

Posted by: whitedragon_48

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/02/06 11:43 PM

Salutations!

Once again, been there. Out on the streets the best choice is the "Running Gobling" technique, i.e., run like hell! But if in an enclosed environment like a pub or, God forbids, a cell block, what works best is to move, move and move. I f you let yourself to be sorrounded, you're dead. As mentioned above, use obstacles and movement to keep'em in front of you (kinda like a sheep dog moving the sheep). If any weapon of opportunity presents itself, don't pass it (I find myself very fond of broomsticks and chairs). Once you see an opening, GET OUT! Remember, for every person in the group, the odds of winning decrease by 50%! It's just not worth it.

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/03/06 12:05 AM

Quote:

Salutations!

Once again, been there. Out on the streets the best choice is the "Running Gobling" technique, i.e., run like hell! But if in an enclosed environment like a pub or, God forbids, a cell block, what works best is to move, move and move. I f you let yourself to be sorrounded, you're dead. As mentioned above, use obstacles and movement to keep'em in front of you (kinda like a sheep dog moving the sheep). If any weapon of opportunity presents itself, don't pass it (I find myself very fond of broomsticks and chairs). Once you see an opening, GET OUT! Remember, for every person in the group, the odds of winning decrease by 50%! It's just not worth it.

Exactly,use everything around you to your advantage,especially long range weapons. Only if running is not an option,ofcourse.

Posted by: Ethanael

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/03/06 02:40 PM

Supposedly, if surrounded, and there's no way out, you go for the weakest guy in the gang, rush at him, do your worst, then go around the back of the other guy, do your worst, then go back through the center of the circle, repeat; keep moving, be on guard, and don't let them catch you off balance.

Cheap shots are not cheap if they save your life.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/03/06 09:49 PM

Simple,

I'd pull my Sig Sauer P232 and have at it.

Is that fair?

Just curious.

Maybe I should have said something along the lines of shooting chi-balls, jumping into cat-stances or, maybe just hitting first, hard and often?

I like answer number one though...

-John

Posted by: RangerG

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/03/06 10:21 PM

Run like I stole something... create as much space as possible. If I am forced to fight, I would rather take out the ringleader with my "everything I got punch"..use front kicks to create space...if I have one attacker bent over that I have kneed in the face a couple of times, I might use him as an obstruction between myself and another attacker.

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 12:07 AM

Quote:

Simple,

I'd pull my Sig Sauer P232 and have at it.

Is that fair?

Just curious.

Maybe I should have said something along the lines of shooting chi-balls, jumping into cat-stances or, maybe just hitting first, hard and often?

I like answer number one though...

-John

Nice weapon. I like the new Sig P229 SAS,but I thought we were unarmed. Well,I'm never unarmed though.

Posted by: jessecrouch

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 06:09 AM

RUN!

clearly your best bet. but im sure you were looking for something a little more in-depth and fight related.

the initiation of force isn't always physical. if you truly feel threatened in such a situation and theres no way out (cant run) then you have little choice but to attack. my favorite two options:

1. destroy the leader.
2. find the leader or at least a valuable member of your attacking group and take him/her hostage. command from there.

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 07:11 AM

Unarmed or not was never mentioned so I thought I'd add my own two cents there.

First of all, it's stupid to go "hands-on", if you aren't an LEO, in ANY potentially violent situation if one can avoid doing so. The stupid quotient just spikes off the CHART when discussing multiples.

People who think they can take on multiples empty handed are MORE than a little goofy.

I suppose there are OTHER options to emptying your clip such as: 1) Running / avoidance (like a sane person would do or 2) Taking your ass beating like a man, lol

-John

Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 12:20 PM

Interesting thing about dealing with multiples....opinions vary.

After a discussion with someone in which they claimed that Gracie JJ did not address dealing with multiples, I contacted Rorion Gracie directly and asked him. His answer was similar to JKogas.

Don't voluntarily confront multiple assailants unless there are no other practical options to diffuse, defend or escape. If you must, initiate and flank. Don't get caught in the middle. There is no magic footwork other than having an athletic base that you can learn and develop in any contact sport such as football or basketball (or of course, wrestling).

The question of who to hit first? All things being equal it would be nice if you got to pick. You probably wouldn't have that luxury. The closest attacker would probably be the most likely target. If he is the smallest that would be a bonus.

Ultimately, it's another exercise in mental masturbation to over think this scenario too much. No matter how many scenarios you come up with, the one that you forget is the one that you will probably face.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 02:24 PM

JKogas - People who think they can take on multiples empty handed are MORE than a little goofy.

I hate to say this but thats only for people who never have done it. I can't tell you the MAs and just good street fighters that I have seen who have taken on multiple attackers and defeated them or fought them off and survived. I am one of these people did I look goofy doing it I don't know and don't care, but I looked better the 2 or 3 that tried to mug or attack me. I'm only saying this because no matter how good you are you can't make blanket statements like that, either way. And I won't believe U can't win/fto because I and others have done it. I know it doesn't sound probably but over confidence can get your a$$ whipped, that all I can account for this. Thats what I saw in their eyes until the very last couple of seconds. How good were my assailants? Don't know I did interview them. Where they good enough to seriously hurt me? Any full grown man is.

Now I know you might say since the Gracies or their Co-heart Jkogas (you're in good company), believe you can't fight two or three people on the streets, its not possible. They are experince fighters, but I can't argue with my success. Now all or either of the above mentioned people could probably whip my a$$, but I still survived and made it work against 2 or more people.

I agreed you can't fight Multiples the way they fight grappling is bad, bad news, fighting multiple. I've read Ricksons BB article fighting two people one kicked him in the face while he choked the other out. I know they know who to kick and punch but you fight the way you train.

I have a lot of respect for their Grappling/fighting skills but I won't change how I approach 2-3-4 on one just because grappling is the craze now.

I agree the odds are against you no matter what, I've seen some people brutally beaten, hospitalized and paralyzed because of this.
I mean already unconcisous and these animals still kicking the body like its a bag of grain. You pull up in the scout car and they scatter like roaches all you can do is stop the bleeding and call the Ambulance. Knowing this you know anythhing goes, its for real.

I agree with what the others posters stated don't be a stationery target keep moving (toward the door if inside trapped) once I ran into a bath room by mistake. The advantage is they had to come through the door one at a time or the like last two shoulder to shoulder arms pinned by the door framed, you can't stop a heavy bath room door from bashing your face with your arms pinned by the door frame, no matter how mad they seemed to look. So only the 1st guy made it inside the bath room, the door clipped his heel he stumbled slighting thats all I needed. When the two guys fell backwards, I ran out of the club to my car and didn't stop until I was home. Was I lucky probably so but it all adds up to being alert, vigilant and a opportunist.

I've seen an a street fighter no formal training throw cigereett ashes into two attacking men faces, and beat the he%% out them with the ash tray.

I saw this 30 yr old TKD man blow away these 3 teens in a bath room at the fair grounds. They pushed him while he was peeing with his back turned. He did it with solid kicks knocking them off their feet. I thought, I was gonna have to help this little guy but it happens so fast that it was over in seconds. Then he ran out the door, these guys got up and chased him to the bath room DOOR. Stopped there they really didn't want to catch him. They were joking with each other calling each other names like sorry mfs, saying who wanted to be the 1st one to catch him!!

Its defintely possible, though not probably.

Let me say that I've been beaten down in 3-4-5 and tapped out by one person. They made no mistakes, their skilled. It seems improbably to win against such odds but this is in a dojo. Fighting fair, no risk accept for humiliation and fun. This is not the case in the street against multiples, i keep remembering it could be me, unconcisous being kicked like a grain sack. U have no choice but to fight and escape, no such thing as can't.

And a Sig or weapon is fair or even money in my books, 2-3 on one attack they deserves whatever they get. You order sh%^ , you eat sh%^!! The Chinese Restruant Manager informs Richard Pryor. rest his soul.

Posted by: Briant

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 02:57 PM

Quote:

Simple,

I'd pull my Sig Sauer P232 and have at it.

Is that fair?

Just curious.

Maybe I should have said something along the lines of shooting chi-balls, jumping into cat-stances or, maybe just hitting first, hard and often?

I like answer number one though...

-John

+1 to what John said. Though I like my Glock.

And yes, it is fair, superior numbers create disparity of force which allow weapons to be used in self defense.

P.S. Don't forget to move while you are shooting.

Posted by: thepanda

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 03:19 PM

If there was no other alternative to violence i would use anything close to hand and try and smash their heads into a wall, because that would probably put them out for a while.

Although i've never had to

Posted by: GojuRyuboy13

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 03:20 PM

gosh you guys, I would smash em, all. In my dojo we practice fighting more than one, so I would give em all a good beatin.

It would go like this. The first guy would throw his fist, I would stop it with my mighty palm, and than grab his hand and throw him on the ground pulling his arm out of the socket. Another would try to tackle me and my mighty Sanchine stance would stop him dead in his tracks and than I'd elbow the back of his head. That's all I got though, I have no idea what to do for three people, we don't practice that.........yet.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 04:53 PM

Kjogas wrote - People who think they can take on multiples empty handed are MORE than a little goofy.

After re-reading this statement I almost agree. Against multiples always use a weapon to even the odds IF U CAN.
Of course I've defeated two on ones bare fisted, no time or chance to pick anything up. But If I could have, I would have. Some might look at my above post and see a contradiction, (I used the door as a weapon) not to mention the heel of my shoe.

This is not as uncommon as you might think. I trully would not teach it if I didn't know it work sometimes, I give the odds.

I guess I'm in that Goofy bunch after all, but it was forced on me. If I had a choice it would have been with something in my hands.

Goofy is what Goofy does, It worked for Forest.

Flect1 - Ultimately, it's another exercise in mental masturbation to over think this scenario too much. No matter how many scenarios you come up with, the one that you forget is the one that you will probably face.

Though dojo work can be like as you mentioned MM, wouldn't you say the more you work with this situation the more you know the dos and don'ts. Its like once you know how to counter a RNC, all though its been rumored once applied, you are defenseless, the more you work against it. Less this is true. I agree you can't cover all the bases/scenarios, but knowing where they are helps in running them. I'd say rather then little or no preparation. Rotationing strikes on the targets, keeping them off balance is a good practice, and keep moving/fighting toward the OUT/door!!!

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 05:51 PM

Neko456 -

I said what I did because the odds aren't for you (in multiple attacker situations). I should have prefaced it by saying that anything is possible.

If my multiple attackers are former Navy SEALs or 4th graders makes a bit of a difference. Sure I can beat a group of guys back maybe, and it would help if they were all in wheelchairs. I hope you get my point.

It completely depends on all factors present. Are my opponents tough and experienced or are they Woody Allen and Don Knotts? Or somewhere in between. Are there only two or TWENTY.

Luck is a bit of a factor as well. Perhaps you were. Perhaps you had more to fight *for* than THEY did. Committment is everything. How committed are they, and how committed are you. Etc. etc.

All that being said, I would bet the HOUSE that I can find a lot more stories where people who got mobbed ended up with toe-tags than those where they ended up beating the mob itself.

There's a reason for that.

-John

Posted by: butterfly

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 06:10 PM

Quote:

Woody Allen and Don Knotts?

Sorry for the interjection without point to the thread, but damn...that was funny!

Posted by: JKogas

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 09:41 PM

-John

Posted by: DullBlade42

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/04/06 09:50 PM

Leaving out environment, weapons, etc, and working on what you have given, I'd practice my running skills. Give a good, "Look over yonder!" and then run like I have just insulted a serial killer's mother. Provided she is still living.

Running is always an option...even if it means having to bust open a space for you to escape.

While planning my ingenius Running strategy, I try not to get too close to anyone, always keep my hands up, be verbal as in trying to diffuse the situation as best as you can (though the mob mentality factor is strong), and staying calm. Trying to stay calm, I mean, let's be realistic- there's going to be some difference in my relaxation between me going to the beach and me being surrounding my many people who'd want to give me a rather large amount of pain.

And usually try to not go to the ground. You know, if you haven't had the oppurtunity to run and someone somehow manages to push you, I'd get up immediately given that there's nobody or nobody's fists there when I get up.

Posted by: Cord

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/05/06 04:04 AM

Quote:

I'd get up immediately given that there's nobody or nobody's fists there when I get up.

Its not the fists that are the problem, its the attacks on your way to your feet that are difficult in this situation.

I have been in a couple of group situations and both I walked away from- this I consider successful. Did I 'beat' either group? hell no.

First one I 'went feotal'- curled up like a ball with my hands covering my head, having been put on my ar$e when drunk. Took my beating, took a week off work, but did not have to go to hospital. This was a good result IMO.

Second one I was steadier on my feet, the altercation took place from the taxi office, and was a hit 'n run 'n shout 'n threaten affair all the way up to my local pub (200 meters approx) where it became a group on group affair for approximately 2 minutes until the police showed up and stopped it.
I didnt get anything other than a cut under my eye and was fine the next day.

I was so popular in my hometown

Posted by: J_Pereira

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/05/06 09:13 AM

Against multiple attackers, I would have to go with the Run Like Hell solution.
If possible, throwing some coins at them, as as been sugested, or creating another form of distraction and get a good head start.

If forced to fight, my first priority would be to try and get some kind of weapon, a broomstick, a car aerial, etc.
I don't know if I would back up against a wall. Of course it can prevent you from being surrounded and attacked from behind, but it also diminishes your possible escape routes.
A good strategy, IMHO, is to move with the intention of keeping your attackers in a straight line, to avoid multiple attacks at the same time, and keep looking for a chance to escape.

In my school we don't have any specific training for this kind of situations.

Regards,
JP

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/05/06 11:03 AM

I totally agree, but when you change the level of play like 3 Navy Seals or Special forces even a Sig won't help you, most of time these guys are armed most believe after surviving Nam, Desert Strom, Turkey/Iraqi or Somolia their not going to let some poop butt kill them for some BS. So it would be Sig on Sig. Anyway just the people I know. Most are like us, won't attack you 2-4 on 1 (unless drunk).

As for the Multiple not being skilled I get this alot especially when I tell the mistakes the attackers made but it not funny at the time nor is it until others point it out. I take every attack on me serious I never say that these 2 or 3 or 4 guys are chumps, I fight them like they are Tank Abbott (I hate Tank, but I think he's tough as nails) until I can tell they are not. Even if they are in a wheel chairs!!! You order sh%^, you eat it.

I agree the odds are not with you. We do plan mass attacks on 1 person, knowing what they might do helps in defending against it. The dive in attempted leg tackle just to hold you there while the other pound and ground you is almost a losing cause, except for the person holding on. His mission is almost suicidal but he helps you make that fatal mistake, being a stationery target.

Theres a fatal police video where a large officer was killed by 3 smaller men. We remake this scenario numerous times and concluded that we get better results bracing for the tackle and firing on the other two men with deadly force then disposing of the tackler. The officer didn't have this chance to train and test over and over to get the best safest for him results. So we learn from his sacrafice.

Multiple attacks are not practiced for effectiveness most of the time. Now some gangs practice multiple assaults as a initiation to their group. Most of the time they end up like Cord in the fetal cover positions and survive.

As for the mob attack 2-3 on 1 just firing on each other unless you get clipped hard you can fight your way to the door. In bar fights or gang fights you can come out with minor injuries if you are lucky, skill and training does factor in. Weather its just taking a cut on the outside of arm instead of the inside or center mass (knowing were it would be least damaging), striking to the thorat or eyes (knowing were to strike), all these things will help you survive. Knowing how to hit hard and instictively effective helps, weak 2-3s don't want what they just witness, even if they do its won't change your striking power. Makes running easier when they just act like they want to catch U.

Don Knotts or Woody Allens could kill you if you give them a chance, they are semi-full grown men. I'd give them respect/hit them hard as if they where Tank Abbott as mention I really dislike him, or if they were Special forces, I admire FS. You never know, then I'd run like wind.

Thinking you are gonna run with out no contact is a myth too. If you knew it was coming you would have stayed home.

Woody and Don's gonna hit you or swing at you a couple of times before you take off. The contact decides if you are the sack being kicked or the rocket, way gone. They gonna know whats up way before you, its gonna be give and take for a second. Don't play anybody short.

We agree its improbably, but thats why we practice.

Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/05/06 01:38 PM

I just feel that there is little if any practical return on your investment if you spend a lot of time thinking about multiples. The way the training would have to be constructed for realism requires such preparation and specific role play factors, I think you would be better off learning how to fight in class and then going out and spending a saturday afternoon playing football in the park.

That's just me.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/05/06 03:46 PM

I feel ya, coming from a LEO and grappling back ground multiple attacks must seem like defending against suicide bombers, I mean when your grand Powpa Master Rickson (I admire this guy technical skills fighting 1 person) states thats its not possible and from the casualties in LEO in these situations, I'd see why U think this is useless or MM time spent.

But its still doesn't change the fact that it has happen and people can be successful in defending and fighting off attackers until they can escape. My eyes don't lie to me.

Knowing and begining prepared helps, in just the major dos and don't, it make you aware of when these attack starts.
Sorta like not giving up your back to a guy with good choke or straight arm a guy to push him off you. Unless you r setting him up for a counter for the arm bar. Same difference.

I believe so much in this that I start this practice at 5th kyu very basic for a complex situtaion. I explain the odds and the main purpose is escape or find a weapon (wood/paper) and even the odds, use it to find a hole to escape.

Probabilites. Life on the line Professionals and MA people like U, practice defense against offensive gun attack like the quick draw, knives & guns, spear and sword defense. Its all part of MA somebody must have pulled it off for it to still be practiced, its somebodies truth. I know cowboy shooters that are actually faster with their single action (really a five shot) revovler then I am with my 1911 or any semi-auto (except for loading oc). Why? How? With practice the improbable becomes probable, even to be a fact. Now I can't do that the single action revolver is the slowest thing since molasses syrup in my hands. But I've seen this with my own eyes, mono mono.

I also practice firing on multiple moving targets from 15 yards - 3yrds (supposibly armed with body armour) I do the cntr mass shot, thigh and head bounce. How probably is this? I guess I like JO. Not very, I'm bound to get tagged by one of them. But my principle is the same shoot from barricade instead of cover retreat but maintain fire to hold them at bay to affect an escape. The MA principle is fight in these situation until you escape, if not you die trying.

It's not all about winning, its about surviving and being prepared helps you do that. I'm sure I don't have to tell you fighting mutilples, were not talking about fighting fair they broke the rules when they attacked in numbers.

This is how different each school cirriculum can be, based on different truths. Now I don't teach 5 men pinning one man escape or counters, a 5th dan JJ man and his students say he can do it. I've yet to see it. MM? maybe.

As for usefulness If I've formed the mental toughness, stamina, speed, power and techniques to take on 2 or 3, how difficult would 1 person be especially if I given the mental signal that more might be coming!!! It gives a fighter edge. Preparation is always valid if put in action and just not MM.

If you think you've Lost, then you have.

Posted by: 1neikoot

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/06/06 03:28 PM

I did'nt bother reading all the responses on the thread, but it looks like running is the best option.

How about this one (if it was'nt mentioned already). Intimidate your opponents by beating the krap out of one as quickly as possible, I saw this a couple of times where 3-4 guys were about to attack, usually one guy comes up first, he's the first one that has to get pummeled, then hopefully the others might rethink the situation or you can just run from there. Just evaluating the situation differantly, it may or may not work, running also may or may not work.

Posted by: GotaDeGuerra

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/06/06 05:00 PM

I too was in this situation not long ago. (This past Thanksgiving, in fact) and indeed- I didn't intend to be. They (about 8) came after us (about 6) and after trying to back away and diffuse the situation, eventually we (ok, I) committed to fight. Though I thought we had a more than strong chance for success (a few football players, a few Marines), I soon found myself and my brother the only ones fighting. Oops.

Though everyone will preach the "run" option (and true, it is the smarter answer, of course) that's not why you asked the question. Say, for example, there were extenuating circumstances, like being in the defense of someone else. You can run, but then what was the point of all your training, just to be a coward in the face of unfavorable odds and (more importantly) turning your back on someone in need?

No, there are right and wrong ideas in this situation, and they can all be debated. One I'm in favor of is the "keep moving" philosophy. You make yourself a harder target. This, of course, means grappling is out. (In fact, in the example above, I tried to grapple the biggest one at one point, and got punched in the head three times by his buddy before I decided that was a bad idea.)

I've posted a much more lengthy response to this in another forum, here:
http://novustemplar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

It's my analysis a video where skater Mike Vallely takes on 4 guys. You may have seen it already.

Most of you on here are probably a more experienced fighters than I am; I'd love to hear what you think of my analysis.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/06/06 05:38 PM

I agree with you if the 2-3 even 4 on 1 are weak and are as Fletch1 stated not committed or not tough.

My statement - Knowing how to hit hard and instictively effective helps, weak 2-3s don't want what they just witness, even if they do its won't change your striking power. Makes running easier when they just act like they want to catch U.

But what if they attack all at the same time, knowing how to step to the outside of the group walking in a circle almost like Pakua, now you're think MF, I gotta get to that door. Laying a trail or daze or unconcisous bodies will help this cause.

I've also seen a guy perform the under shoulder forearm choke against a group he swung the guys nearly unconcisous body around scattering & keeping them at bay and then dropped his seemly lifeless body like a sack. The others stared looking like DAMNNNN!!! Eye wide shut (to coin the movies), pulled their buddy's to them an left. Shouting and running U cray MF!!! So imtimdiation helps, being crazier then them might work. I'd try anything. I still think if they rushed him he would have been trashed. But who knows he might have had some kicking and punching skills too.

I will admitt it works better against newbies 2-3 gets cleaned up on by vetran in these classes. They don't know how to attack or how hard to hit and sometimes just rush in numbers for guy that knows how to counter and absorb these attacks. Its not hard now once they know how and what to do safely for them beat down the cagey fighter it turns into war. Actually the veteran starts getting beat down h2h, then we let him bring in an weapon any weapon leather sapp hard covered book or stick. He beating them down or standing off the group. Knowing what and how it comes helps. Running is alway the plan escape.

But how do you do that, unless you got a plan. Don Knotts can stand in front of a door while Woody Allen and the 3 stoggins beat you crazy if you panic and freez. Worst thing would be crying and looking horrified (unless you were going for your Sig/Berreta).

Thats like Sharks and its blood in the water. Feeding frenzy!!! Expect no mercy.

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/07/06 12:02 PM

What would you guys think about my saying that, in general, the difficulty of defending against multiple attackers more than doubles with each additional attacker?

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/07/06 06:12 PM

I'd say you are spot-on Leo.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/16/06 03:18 PM

I respectfully disagree, Leo. I think that the dificulty increases up to three people. After that the extras dont become a factor unless you get taken off your feet. Until then they still have to work around obstacles and the other assailants to get to you.

As far as fighting multiple assailants it depends on your training, your will, and then finally your opponents. Personally, I would fight while trying to escape. Im no superman but I know that the longer it takes then the more risk for injury, death, or jail time. At least once a week I do multiple assailant scenarios using at least three people of various sizes, speeds, and skills. The goal is to attack hard and savagely. Every blow must be intended to hurt, ko, or maim the opponent. Never stop moving. Keep your opponents guessing and try to line them up so that they remain in each others way. Use obstacles and improvised weaponry. Then after one or two are subdued the others may back off. If not continue to hurt them until you find your openening to escape. Now, if you have the opening from the begining then take it. But use a distraction tactic first to help ensure your safe escape.

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/16/06 03:35 PM

Quote:

I respectfully disagree, Leo. I think that the dificulty increases up to three people. After that the extras dont become a factor unless you get taken off your feet. Until then they still have to work around obstacles and the other assailants to get to you.

I agree with Chen. I have witnessed a multiple-attacker scenario when a drunken friend stupidly charged about 8 bouncers outside a club we went to (believe me, I tried to stop him

). He was instantly descended upon by the mob of them, but only about 3 of the bouncers were able to get clear shots on him.

I waded in to pull them off before he got hurt too bad. Luckily, they had made their point and let him go. In the space of less than 10 seconds, my friend had broken ribs and lots of bruises because he though one of the bouncers had "looked at him funny".

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/16/06 03:41 PM

Quote:

I respectfully disagree, Leo. I think that the dificulty increases up to three people. After that the extras dont become a factor unless you get taken off your feet. Until then they still have to work around obstacles and the other assailants to get to you.

I'm assuming that the situation is going to involve you being taken off your feet. If not, then having more attackers does mean that the attackers will get in each other's way. But never the less, the attackers will significantly outnumber you and what they lose in manouverability they will make up in volume. If you take one out, there will be another to take his place, on top of that you'll be more exhausted (plus you've still got the others you didn't manage to take out). This is what I meant by the difficulty more than doubling with each new attacker.

Also, the number of attackers who can attack at once depends on your situation, if you're surrounded, 4 can attack at once quite comfortably, possibly 5.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/16/06 04:41 PM

Self defense starts before the first attack is ever thrown. Allowing yourself to become surrounded by a mob of hostiles just isnt good practice. Therefore I did not play that as a factor in my scenario. Just like you DID include being taken down in yours. Im primarily a stand up fighter so I did not include this, even though I am comfortable on the ground it isnt a situation I intend to be in with one person much less two or more. Now as you remove an attacker another will make his way in. This is true but for how long? If you saw your friend or gangleader get his leg broke by a man who is outnumbered do you still go after him? If you do just how confident are you? Even if they do continue you can remove the fighting spirit from them. When that happens they are quit hesitant leading to their withdrawal or disposal. The one thing that people think about when reading these types of posts is there favorite action movie and them imitating the star perfectly. What the movies dont illustrate is that a situation like this can very easily turn into a life or death matter so you must react accordingly. im not talking about trading punches with people. In this situation you must be willing to seriously hurt your opponent. Or take it a step further than that. im not condoning this action to anyone here of course, since that would make me liable for their actions but this is my mindset and what I would be going for.

I would constantly be looking for ways to slow down my opponents. Either by way of my enviroment or by punishing their lower extremitites with low level kicks. Im trying to break their leg. If they make it past the kick, Im looking to redirect them either by attempting to break their jaw, by fist or knee, or by small joint manipulation and destruction if I can quickly grab, twist and snap. If not i will allow my footwork to move me to the next target. A maximum of two seconds per opponent is optimal and no more than three before you must disengage and protect or attack. Also I always have some sort of weapon. Be it car keys, a small pocket knife, a nearby car antenna or so on. There is always something that can be used. Unless you are in a flat ground empty area like a field or dojo.

Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/17/06 10:40 AM

In all honesty, I'd run.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/17/06 01:35 PM

He wrote - Though everyone will preach the "run" option (and true, it is the smarter answer, of course) that's not why you asked the question. Say, for example, there were extenuating circumstances, like being in the defense of someone else. You can run, but then what was the point of all your training, just to be a coward in the face of unfavorable odds and (more importantly) turning your back on someone in need?

Pride will get you killed on the street or kicked like that lifeless bag of grain. The purpose of training is to learn how to keep living/survive. Starting a fight against odds goes against this. Fight until you can escape/run, even if they are all knocked on the ground. They may get up or some more fresh friends may come armed or just in force. If you let pride slow your escape you may not escape and end up in ER or worst. Being a coward is realitive being smart is staying alive. If runnings from a fight against odds, means you are a coward, I've been a coward more times then not. I know others who decided otherwise they either are not here, or don't have all their teeth. Fighting multiples can be done but only when you have to and only long enough to find an escape hole.

Training gives you the 411, it is to make you smart enough not to fight unless you have to.

That kind of Pride is something you write movies/books about and the young dream about. Its not for practical applications. As you found out 6 on 8 don't sound bad odds, until you find only two of 6 are fighting, I would have thought they at least hold somebody, you have to know you can trust that they got your back. If not RUN!!!!

I believe in it, but I'll be damn if I want to do it for real. The stakes are just too high to bet on.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/17/06 01:46 PM

I agree with your theory of more then 3 doesn't increase the odds of the success of their inital attack. But it does hurt the fact that the others are not getting R as tried as you. Eventually these fresher guys are going to change the odds drastically as I'm sure you seen in your trainiing.

I agree totally with you that you got to make your hole to escape and it gonna be a fight to make it and keep. Nobodies gonna just let you go through them without a fight, unless you have proved its unwise to stay in your way.

Movement, tactics, methods, strikes and makeshift weapons that make them pay witness and escapes. Seems like you've been there so the trainings real. Having done it once or twice makes these training sessions come to life.

Good post Chen ZEn

Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/18/06 09:18 AM

He didnt ask about extenuating circumstances, he asked what we would do when faced with multiple attackers. If you want to narrow the field to specifics where combat is the only option that's different. But if running away is an option when it 2:1,3:1 etc I'm gonna run every time.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/18/06 03:51 PM

Giving everybody their due Gotade... brought up the specfic situations, I just tried to give a reply to his statement.

Then I agreed with Chen Zen, if you don't its Ok. We all agree that running is best but U may have to fight as you run or before you can run. This is were we part, some think you just take off running, others think you fight your way to the door or hole and then turn on the turbos. I'm with the fight your way to the door, thats what I've experinced. I feel if you can tell thats its about to start sure slip out. But give the trappees some credit they gonna know before U do, what their plan is. Somebodies going to be blocking your nearest exist.

I reiterates ....Courageously or stupidly fighting the pack is something you write movies/books about and the young dream about, if they survive. Its not for practical applications. If you can RUN!!!!

I believe & know its possible, but I'll be damn if I want to do it for real. The stakes are just too high to bet on.

Posted by: Eveal

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/25/06 07:14 AM

I would probably put my training to the test only if they do not have weapons out. Then I would go for the boss and try to get him in some ridiculously painfull chock hold or neck torque and tell the other guys to back off or I will snap his neck. If they continue to come at me I would probably snap the guys knee and take him out of the fight and push him into one of the other guys and take another in a hold or torque and do the same lol.... if only it was that easy.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/25/06 11:40 AM

How long would spend with the 1st guy before deciding to go to the next. Sometimes the guy won't comply with you getting him into a choke or hold. If you bother too long with the 1st, now you have two people swing at you and in seconds now its three and so on. Lets say you r holding your own getting hit and hitting, no one seriously hurt. When would you decided to run? Testing is one thing but waiting for the final score of the test is another.

All of this is just hypothetical.

But on the real, I don't think I'd test skills in a situation like this unless I had to and there was NO way out. I'd test my skills until I saw a opening to Run!!!

What really would it prove except you can take some punches and hits? I guess it prove your traning works, but there is a flips side and all it takes is one mistake on your part.

Posted by: Eveal

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/26/06 07:09 AM

Quote:

How long would spend with the 1st guy before deciding to go to the next. Sometimes the guy won't comply with you getting him into a choke or hold. If you bother too long with the 1st, now you have two people swing at you and in seconds now its three and so on. Lets say you r holding your own getting hit and hitting, no one seriously hurt. When would you decided to run? Testing is one thing but waiting for the final score of the test is another.

All of this is just hypothetical.

But on the real, I don't think I'd test skills in a situation like this unless I had to and there was NO way out. I'd test my skills until I saw a opening to Run!!!

What really would it prove except you can take some punches and hits? I guess it prove your traning works, but there is a flips side and all it takes is one mistake on your part.

I was going on the point if I was backed into a corner and can't escape. Seriouly, I would try to find an escape route or try to talk them out of it.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/26/06 12:04 PM

Three seconds maximum per opponent. DO NOT GRAB. This just isnt a good idea. Force against force expires too much energy. If you do grab use it to redirect or to destroy structure. Chokes and submissions will not work in a multiple opponent situation EVER. So three seconds/structural destruction/ distraction and escape.

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/26/06 12:12 PM

Quote:

Chokes and submissions will not work in a multiple opponent situation EVER.

Wouldn't entirely agree with that. A choke from the rear can act as a good way of utilizing someone as a shield. I've had a couple of colleagues who have gone to the floor and managed to pull one of the attackers down with them and kept control of them using a choke and utilizing them as a shield to take most of the barrage of attacks. Obviously not ideal, smash and bash is much better way to go...but controlling techniques to have some valid applications in multiple combat IMHO.

Gav

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/26/06 01:26 PM

Quote:

Chokes and submissions will not work in a multiple opponent situation EVER.

I think that joint locks are valid. Just because we train them slowly doesn't mean we'll use them slowly if it comes to self defense. We apply joint locks slowly to let our opponent tap, but if you're not concerned about your opponent's health, you can just slam a joint past its natural range of movement instantly, hence instant dislocation. Then you can quite happily let go of the hyperextended limb and move on to something else.

Also, most chokes take only a couple of seconds if properly applied to make someone pass out, especially if it's by strangulation (blood chokes).

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/26/06 05:15 PM

I agree with Chen if the guy just don't fall into your choke or joint lock, the optima situation would be to stay free and moving. Don't get tied up with one guy long. Maybe not the Ever word, nothings absolute.

Each made a good analogy indeed if given time the choked guy can be used as a shield, but he can also occupy both your hands leading to the others striking you. If they standback you got a standoff, but if they charge they may free him and hurt you. I wouldn't hold on until he was out, if they charged. At the least he becomes a destraction and maximum he may be enough to end the fight.

I do agree that the proper way to apply locks on the street is quickly break or tear the joints or ligaments, you don't give them time to tap. I'd use the same idea with the choke, forearm/elbow smash to neck, adam apple rather a deep RNC or what ever. JMO.

I see your point but staying loose/free of intangliment is paramount, wouldn't you say? Pending escape route.

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/26/06 07:32 PM

Very good point and I agree about staying mobile, but you must admit that there could be times where these techniques would be applicable, even while you are trying to escape.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/28/06 01:27 PM

Notice that in the first reply the guy pulls a choke and then pulls the guy on top of him. Not bad if your in a ring. However being on the ground is the last place i want to be with three or four guys around waiting to stomp on my head. He even said that the human shield absorbed MOST of the barrage which means he is still taking on damage and having to keep control of the guy on top of him. Why choke at all? If your in a situation such as this, with more than one or two guys then it becomes a very dangerous situation. If i managed to get my hands around your neck then why not try something else like crushing the adams apple or breaking the neck vertebrae? Theres a lot less push and pull to control the opponent that way.

Joint locks. We do them slowly in class. Correct. However have you ever tried to catch someones arm while in serious combat? Its hard to do in a sparring match much less in reality. Unless your sparring strictly grappling. The truth of the matter is that an opponent and his flunkies have set out to hurt you. Most likely this will be accomplished by striking repeatedly. To chase after the opponents limb to secure a lock is going to leave gaps in your defense and slow down your offense. If you prefer joint destruction in this situation then why not go for something a little easier to accomplish like say a thai kick to the kneecap? Its quicker, it leaves the use of both hands for defensive or offensive purposes and it facilitates good footwork and movement. Try to keep moving effectively when both hands are tied up trying to secure a kimura lock or rear naked choke.

Posted by: jamesd

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/28/06 01:41 PM

Hi All,

I have to agree with Gavin regarding the rear choke, when I was working as a doorman I had the pleasure of escorting a lovely chap out of the venue, everything was fine until his female companions decided to attack me with their handbags, now i don't know what their handbags contained but they felt like house bricks and it didn't take long before i'd changed positions and used their mate as a shield! poor sod took a right battering!

James.

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/28/06 04:28 PM

Quote:

Notice that in the first reply the guy pulls a choke and then pulls the guy on top of him. Not bad if your in a ring. However being on the ground is the last place i want to be with three or four guys around waiting to stomp on my head.

I was referring to a standing RNC. They are just as effective once you get them sunk in.

Quote:

Joint locks. We do them slowly in class. Correct. However have you ever tried to catch someones arm while in serious combat?

It's easy to control a limb from inside the clinch. Admittedly not a good place to be, but it does happen sometimes.

Both the chokes and locks I was referring to were standing techniques from the clinch. No groundwork involved.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/28/06 05:18 PM

Actually I was referring to Gavins mention of the RNC and how his peers had used it to shield themselves on the ground.

And, admittedly it is easier to obtain joint control from the clinch but this isnt an optimal situation in a multiple attacker situation. In the clinch you still have to control the opponent. The control is the problem. When you try to control the actions of others you use much required energy. Energy that could be used to out manuever opponents, strike opponents, or more importantly energy to escape. Also, in the clinch balance comes into play. Especially, if that balance is disturbed by outside forces(your other opponents).

Posted by: konooburu

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/28/06 06:53 PM

A goood thing to do Is kick up some gravel Or throw some gravel at them. Or Powder What ever you can find to slow them down, And or Blind them "Metsubushi"

Then go in for some attacks To there Throats Or any open Body parts,

Posted by: funstick5000

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/28/06 07:31 PM

note to self: never attack someone on tarmac.

my advice would be stomp or kick the one that is down if you can, keep him down. when it comes to mutliple attacks you have to properly hurt them; i.e. in a one on one fight you make sure someone knows that it isn't the best idea to keep fighting you and the fight stops, you don't nessacarily have to cause them a lot of pain; multiple attackers needing it spelling out to them.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/29/06 12:23 PM

Exactly. You have to go about it as if your life is in danger because it very well could be. You cannot have compassion for an opponent such as this. Its dangerous to think otherwise. If it were a pack of wild dogs you wouldnt be so gracious would you? Its the same thing except the human opponents are a lot more dangerous because they have a plan. And possibly unseen weapons.

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/30/06 05:50 AM

Quote:

Actually I was referring to Gavins mention of the RNC and how his peers had used it to shield themselves on the ground.

Chen, no offence meant, but this is actually based on real world experience. I'm not a grappler in the slightest, but if you're being overwhelmed and you've got a couple of guys raining shots down on you will do one of two things cover up or get hurt. With the best training in the world, you just can't block 3 or 4 sets of arms and legs. If the attack happens it will be like a swarm and you need to weather that storm by covering up then come out firing when they try and untangle themselves. Personally if I'm forced to cover up and I can bring one of them in to take the pounding rather than my arms I will. If I can choke them in the processs even better.

This swarming behaviour I've seen many many times, in fact twice this past saturday night alone.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/30/06 05:07 PM

Ive seen this sort of thing. Ive played both parts of the field, the victim and whats feels like a lifetime ago, I was one of the "badguys" that get wrote about in topics such as these. Above any of that I train constantly against multiple attackers because of the area and occupation that I have tends to find me in gang infested areas. On the ground you're easy picking. Even in the example you gave you said that the person was able to sheild MOST of the shots thrown at him. The problem is that it only takes ONE. Not even a good one just a lucky one in the right spot. Now the same is true when you are on your feet but at least then you have much more options defensively. More mobility, and more ease to retaliate. Also escape is an option when you remain on your feet. How do you plan to escape when an opponent is laying on top of you and others are trying to cave in your skull? Please dont take offence to the tone of my post but i dont understand the logic. I cant fathom why a person would choose to be surrounded by opponents while laying on his back wrestling with another guy, rather than attack hard and fast on your feet and escape.

Posted by: MAGon

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/30/06 07:44 PM

Quote:

...Now the same is true when you are on your feet but at least then you have much more options defensively. More mobility, and more ease to retaliate. Also escape is an option when you remain on your feet. How do you plan to escape when an opponent is laying on top of you and others are trying to cave in your skull?... I cant fathom why a person would choose to be surrounded by opponents while laying on his back wrestling with another guy, rather than attack hard and fast on your feet and escape.

Gavin: With respect, I fully agree with Chen and his reasoning. Using one of the BGs to cover up is a variant I would consider if there's a set of circumstances in which it absolutely, positively isn't possible to manuever on my feet. Otherwise... It's hard to get hit if y'ain't there! Or at the very least it's much easier to roll with the blows and not take 'em full force.

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/31/06 02:07 PM

Guys, if theres room to move obviously your gonna be moving, hitting and escaping...but like I said, if your getting overwhelmed and you have no choice but to cover up or are pulled to the floor then like I said, choke and dragging someone in to take the shots for me is far better than takin them myself (I always liking sharing)...In the group situations I witnessed and been involved in the dynamic is always the swarm of the entire pack going in for the kill...once the first wave has tangled itself in a desperate attempt to all hit their target, they pull pack...thats when your body work and power should be brought out. Covering and grapping during this intial onslaught is a great way of weathering it. Thats where I place value on the controlling side and shielding side of things.....dunno perhaps I'm not putting this acros to well?????

Posted by: MAGon

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 01/31/06 07:26 PM

This time you got through. I can't speak for Chen, but I think that what you're saying is the flip side of the coin. And yes, it makes sense to choke out a BG and use his bod to cover yours if you absolutely can't manuever. With the caveat, though, that you need to take into account that the guy you're trying to choke out is gonna be trying to do some damage of his own, so he needs to have his running lights put out ASAP. Hell, if I get grabbed and I know I'm gonna get choked out and then used as shield for my buddies to pound on, you can bet I'm gonna do my darnedest to claw my way through you and out the other side. And you'll be pulling me in close enough so that that very thing is going to be an attractive proposition indeed!

Posted by: Gavin

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/01/06 05:10 AM

Phew....thought I was going mad for a sec!

Completely agreed...anything you do with mutliples has to count. Thats why you have to practice you controlling game against non-compliant partners.

Posted by: Chen Zen

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/05/06 07:41 PM

I understood you better that time. And I agree thats the best tactic IF you HAVE to go down.

Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/07/06 11:17 AM

I hate to say this, but most of you guys are just folling yourselves into thinking you have much luck of succeeding against 3 or more attackers. Even with little skill all they have to do is all attack at the same time (which they will), they will most likely overwhelm you and take you down.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/07/06 11:54 AM

I think the difference is in the reality of what is your goal, is what makes it seems unreal. How can you say that a person past experince is not valid.

I agree the odds are not in your favor to beat down 3 or more people, but thats not the goal. It is to halt their attack and escape. Thats really the goal not standing over 3-more beaten attackers as you see in the Movies, that maybe close to fantasy. But knocking most if not all of them on their butt, while escaping is REAL, trust Me. Or just hurting them so bad that they don't want to chase or stop you from leaving.

If you haven't experinced it you are the Lucky one. But I definitely wouldn't say you can't survive a 3-more on 1 attack, if you trying to survive not whip them all and stand over them. I'm not saying that its not possible with 2 maybe 3 people, but it shouldn't be the goal and definately not advisable.

Making simple resolutions to complex situations doesn't consider the X factors, like skill and tenacity. Its like saying all you have to do is punch someone on the chin to knock them out. Easier said then done.

There is a difference in fantasy and the Real world events.

Posted by: azjudoaikijitsu

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/09/06 07:44 AM

Have you actually been attacked by 3 or more people, knocked them all down and escaped?

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/09/06 10:10 AM

Here we go, Ok I've been in bar/club instances, gang/truff fights out numbered, School hazing were the senior of a the high school beat down the freshmens, I been in bathroom muggings, I've been in bar fights as a bouncer and as a policeman. The bathroom mugging was probably the scariest because the doors shuts behind you and one guy grabs you from behind anothers trying to punuch in the face!! No where to run until you make you a hole. But it was just two guys. Usually there were three or more attackers, in these other incidents.

Most of the times they are over confident because they got numbers but inside this rat pack they sometime breakdown and they want to show or see how tough each guy is to have something to brag about later. So they don't always attack all at the same time, they attack as soon as they get to you, like the 1st dog to the kill. Maybe seconds later you're fighting two then three or more, if you fail to handle things quickly.

I'll discuss the school hazing there were probably 13 seniors beating down single freshmens. I was upstairs I didn't know what was going on until this guy punched me in the face, I retailated and by punching him in face and kicking in the balls, the guy attacking from my side I side kick to ground, the other 2-3 guys stood eye wide looking at their fallen senoirs. 5 more came up the stairs I took off running they ran into more freshmen beat on them. 3-4 caught me down stairs some where of the group that caught me earlier. They pointed and push each other, "you get him no hell no, you get him". I tipped toed into the Principle Main Office and snuck out the side door. Why I didn't tell the teachers, you just didn't do that. It was part of a warped tradition. Darn that was only two down, but still it wasn't my fault the others didn't attack, sometimes 2 out 3 ain't bad. Really it was 5 or 6.

I know this was not a serious attack more like a play mugging, freshmen still got busted noses and mouths, bent over after being punched in the stomach. I did not, I did get hit a couple of times but I gave as good as I got. And they knew it.

I don't think this practice goes on today, when I was a senior we didn't do it. I choose this scanario because it has some humour to it. I know it was not a street fight per say but it more like a mugging.

The key is yeah at 15 yrs. old, I was trained to defend and escape when out numbered. As I got older things got more serious and deadlier, but hit and run is etched in stone in my mind. And still teach it, its like guerilla warfare in a way.

Posted by: sbd_assassin

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/09/06 10:40 AM

reminds me of every kung fu movie in the last ten or so years (especially jackie chan's.) Personally i'd be running as fast as possible if i was outside. Indoors hurtling table chairs etc. And going for the cheapest shots possible i.e. throat, groin, kidneys, etc. anything worth hitting, but it's always best not to get into the situation in the first place.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/09/06 12:03 PM

Well it really happen 20+ years ago Jackie Chan was still in China probably in his Chinese Opera classes. No he was probably doing stunts in Chinese movies. Jackie and I are not that far apart in age. And I probably couldn't carry his jock scraps, end of comparison.

I agree to run if you can but if a guy punches you in the face and another aiming at the other side of your head. And U react before your common since kicks in to run, you defend.

My point is that I didn't stand there and try to fight the whole group of pesting Seniors. As for trying to miam it wasn't that serious, caught by surprise I did kick the grion my bad.

As a matter of fact they won a day or 2 later, 8 surrounded me at my locker and told me that they were gonna win and if I let them hit me in the chest they'd stop their assault. Two approached and they pop me and jumped back away. It was done, everything is not about victory it was about a crazy tradition that we done away with. Thank god.

I still learned to hit and escape thats the point what I learned in the dojo could be applied on the street. Even in a play mugging situation.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/11/06 08:17 AM

if there is to be a confrontation. The strike fast and strike hard.

Posted by: prescience

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/11/06 04:31 PM

I would depending on the situation i would do as my sah-boo nim has taught me and run directly at them hit the first one i get to and keep running and stop when one gets close enofe to me and mess them up and keep running.if i could not run then i woud not stop moving circleing tring to life them up and get them as thay come to me.

Posted by: TaeKwonMiles

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/12/06 03:56 PM

My master instructor said to go for the guy that is the leader of the group. If you take him down, chances are the others wont mess with you. The best way i can see doing this is a kick to the groin or punch to the throat.

Or... whoever attacks first, they get there ass kicked first.

And because of this situation, thats why i carry a knife on me.

Posted by: eyrie

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/12/06 06:50 PM

Be sure you understand the legal ramifications of being armed in what may initially be an unprovoked assault. The line can be crossed very easily into premeditated intent, which means murder, as opposed to manslaughter, if it were to go very wrong.

In any case, be sure to check the legalities in your country of carrying a weapon.

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/12/06 11:42 PM

Quote:

Be sure you understand the legal ramifications of being armed in what may initially be an unprovoked assault. The line can be crossed very easily into premeditated intent, which means murder, as opposed to manslaughter, if it were to go very wrong.

In any case, be sure to check the legalities in your country of carrying a weapon.

Finally, someone talks about legal issues!

I was hoping for that, thank you.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/13/06 03:41 PM

I agree with your instructor if you can figure out who he is or if he's standing in front of your out. But I won't spend too much time going for him. The Object is to escape and like you said "Or... whoever attacks first, they get there ass kicked first".

In a multiple type situation a knife may not be the best alternative, to me a knifes best used when it can't be seen, either sentry neuturlizing or weilding it in close before they know its there. Sometimes u can use it as a deterant, but I'd alway fear me pulling a knife and they'd step back and one or two draw guns. Legally they can stop you with deadly force, it would take a trail to determine their innocents or guilt. All people involved being armed.

Unarmed hitting and escaping usually won't esculate to deadly force unless some big factors go wrong, you slip and fall or U hurt a guy really bad and hang around until he goes for his weapon.

Then there is the Law to contend with, as mentioned, even though you are trying avoid being attacked you can't up the stakes to deadly force, without consequneces, even if you really mean leave me alone or I'll cut you.

Posted by: Commandersackman

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/13/06 08:12 PM

How many attackers?......,if theres more than 5 ground fighting could be dangerous,Getting surrounded isnt a good idea, if they have weapons your pretty much done for

,Running could have its benifits or it could just wear you out,Best thing to do in my opinion is to keep from getting surrounded and fight as ''dirty''(well mabye its not classed as dirty when in this situation)fight as if fighting for your life possibly seriously maming or even braking a few bones or splattering a few nuts along the way,Of course 1 on 1 fights should be treated differently and sportsman like.

Posted by: kyokushinkai

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/13/06 09:06 PM

If they weren't armed and there was no chance of running I would.. try to get myself with something behind me ie a wall to stop them from circling me then I would smash the "ringleader" cockiest one as hard as I could in the solarplexus/nose ( or any other soft spot really ) and hope he goes down. Because from experience if you take down the "leader" or biggest one in 1 or 2 hits then the others usually hesitate to attack you... If they do attack you and you have no other choice I would say go balls to the wall with blocking because when you try to block one the other one will get ya... so really just explode on all of them if one or to go down then they might run.

Don't be afraid to fight dirty when there is 3 or more of them because if you go down they won't hesitate to kick you in the ribs or face.

yah sorry if there is a lot of grammatic errors or spelling errors.. I'm kind of use to MSN talk and all lol..

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/14/06 12:26 PM

I find this kinda humourous like one guy can't hurt you.

Commander.. wrote - Of course 1 on 1 fights should be treated differently and sportsman like.

I believe you should fight dirty until the guy or guys are not a threat, then you can become my brothers keeper. Until then that sob is just SOL, for attacking me.

As for the age old tactic of taking out the biggest or leader thats great if you got time to detertime who he is.
Also sometimes a big guy you may need to hit multiple times for the desired effect, you don't want to be tied up beating down 1 guy. Shots placements is the key and dropping the big guy will take the steam out the crowd but it may tie you up. You really want OUT!!!

I think the 1st sob that threatens take him apart, even the leader and especailly the leader don't want that happening to him in front of his other buddies. The Leaders got eyes and really fears being injuried probably more then his buddies. Ego is a big thing to them. Being smashed crushes like that, takes away from his image. Bust him up works but I won't just target him anybody that standing in the way of my OUT is damaged goods.

You really want out!! Even if their armed its really hard to hit a fast zig zagging target, with a handgun.

Posted by: kyokushinkai

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/14/06 01:37 PM

oh I got a good one.. The first guy who attacks you gouge out his eyes.. That scare the others a little bit.

Posted by: matxtx

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/15/06 01:28 PM

someone told me once there tactic was to say to the group very agressively that although theres lots of them and he'd get beat,the first he got hold of or a the first to attack he would rip there face of,kill,gouge,etc..and all manner of nasty things said aggresively with swearing(tut tut).
apparently he'd seen it done for real and no one dared go first.
not sensible some would say though its an option if its definitly going to kick off.

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/15/06 11:39 PM

Quote:

someone told me once there tactic was to say to the group very agressively that although theres lots of them and he'd get beat,the first he got hold of or a the first to attack he would rip there face of,kill,gouge,etc..and all manner of nasty things said aggresively with swearing(tut tut).
apparently he'd seen it done for real and no one dared go first.
not sensible some would say though its an option if its definitly going to kick off.

That would be a miracle if that actually worked,maybe if you are a grown man talking to seventh graders,lol.
If you have time to talk trash about what you think you are going to do to them then you have time to leave.

"I'm gonna bla bla bla yadda yadda.....*gerk*!"

Posted by: matxtx

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 02/16/06 01:44 PM

hey..talking of kids...are you calling me a gerk?

thats inappropriate and immature mr!

im not saying i agree.and i said...if you know its going to kick off.
i should of said surrounded and cornered yea?
well it was said to me by a person who isnt a lyer or acts 'hard' or even cares for violence.just something he saw.....so apparently it has worked.

Posted by: theoldone

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/08/06 04:53 PM

If I can't get away, I'd do the Dracula thing: grab the nearest guy and start sucking blood (or try to), lift my face for a couple of seconds to show my crazed eyes (and Angel impression), and go back to sucking blood. Hopefully, that works. Nothing else works anyway.

Posted by: MikoReklaw

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/08/06 05:07 PM

I thought I was the only one that thought about the "sucking blood" defense. My secrets out!

Posted by: Ukraine

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/08/06 09:35 PM

It all depends.
If there is only one person then I would fight them. If two maybe.3 take a chance.4 or more, than your in a bit of a pickle. I would run and just get out of there as fast as i could.

Posted by: PDorasil

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/09/06 03:26 AM

#1 rule, Don't Panic. Assess the situation. Don't just run because you're scared. I live in Ft. Worth, TX. If I'm in the wrong part of the neiborhood, my car is broken down, it's late at night, and there are 2-3 guys my size with no weapons, I'm not going to run. I don't run fast. They will catch me, and they will kill me because I will be out of breath. A chase also gives them the opportunity to tackle me. Not smart. No, I'm going to attack them now, while i have my energy, and I'm going to attack whatever vital target is available first.

#2 rule, stick with whatever decision you make. If you choose to run, keep running, don't stop. If you choose to fight, fight, don't stop. That is, don't stop until the danger has been eliminated.

#3 rule, don't hesitate. It is always more dangerous to do nothing than it is to make the wrong decision. If there is a situation in which you are going to be attacked, and you know you are going to be attacked, take action before you have to. That is, do not wait until they attack you to react. You want to be alive so you can worry about legal issues later.

#4 rule, do not overcomit to any one person. Joint locks and grappling are great self-defense in 1 on 1 situation, but obviously leave you vulrable to multiple attackers. Use uncommited strikes as much as possible. Knees elbows and headbutts are good. Retract punches, kick only to the knees, groin, and lower thighs if your attackers are standing. Only use joint locks if you are very proficient at them. I have worked with joint locks a lot and I could never trust myself to do one effectively on the street. They take me a lot of time, and too much can go wrong. If you feel more comfortable, instead of locking the joint, break it immediately. If you see a wrist, break the wrist. You do not have time to control one person when you're dealing with 2, 3, or 5 (if more than 5 you should stop watching so many Chuck Norris films).

#5 rule, look for unfair advantages. Things as simple as belts can be used as weapons. Keys can work depending on your keys. I carry a 3" pocket knife in my car. But never threaten. If you pull out a blade, be prepared to cut someone, and be prepared to be cut. You don't want them to know you have it until it's traveling through their flesh. Knife fights look nothing like West Side Story or Micheal Jackson videos.

#6 rule. Maintain composure and confidence at all times. When fighting on the street, you will get hit. Sometimes, you will have to choose to get hit in a non-vital because blocking means opening up a vital target. You may be suffering, but it is important that your attackers do not know it. Fighting is 51% mental. If your attackers see that nothing they are doing is hurting you, they will be discouraged and may change what they are doing, They may loose confidence in the fight and retreat themselves. If nothing else, you're taking information away from them. If it looks like you're not hurt, they don't know what to do to hurt you.

There are a million different things to consider when you're being attacked by multiple people. Those are just some off the top of my head.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/09/06 04:26 PM

I agree with most of the stuff you wrote except you never mentioned when to leave/run you are not gonna stand there and whip 4-5 guys or even the 3 guys left out the 2 you just injuried. When there is a pause in action were they start counting head and giving the oppurnity to run/leave. You need to do it. The more time you stay around the more the odds lean in their favor anything can happen, I don't want it happening to me. Fighting more then 1 bc you have to is one thing but fighting one minded, I fight or run one or the other is crazy. You fight until you can escape, sometimes they will let you walk away, swiftly. But You best leave. You can stand and fight to the bitter end or escape. The bitter end may be yours 2-3 maybe 4 guys maybe if you injury the first two r 3 and their buddies standing along.

But what happens if more of their friends show up, Yeah you buddies might show 1st but is that a chance you want to take.

I still say you want to survive this encounter its not about winning, well maybe it is but winning is surviving it not standing over 3-five fallen attacker, thats your chance to run.

Posted by: theoldone

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/10/06 03:16 AM

Quote:

I thought I was the only one that thought about the "sucking blood" defense. My secrets out!

Did you attend the Dracu-do School Of Suck-Defense, in a little province in Transylvania? Its insignia look something like the Golum. Its slogan was: "My prehhhhciouusss...". We use it when we first see and then emrace our victims...er...I mean, attacker.

In any case, jumping on each attacker quickly and biting necks in succession like a crazed monkey might work. People may or may not be afraid of being struck with fists and feet, but most would react to neck-bites in disgust or shock/horror, especially from someone who's acting like a crazed monkey with hair on fire.

What say you all? (I'm serious. Please ignore all social conventions of looking dignified)

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/10/06 03:25 AM

I say that when you bite someone you run the risk of getting a nasty disease.

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/10/06 12:33 PM

I say trying to bite at long range is a good way to get your teeth knocked out, At close range is another matter or used to escape a head lock or sort. Remember these guys are not going to be students letting you demo a technqiues. So acting crazy is different then being crazy and so is its success rate.

Attacking conventionaly entering and covering and end up with a bite or choke, things happen but I'd opt to stay moving and striking any pause leaves a chance to be hit hard and solid or tackled and stomped. Instead of techniques that make you pause I opt for eye, throat, grion, joint/knee attacks something that will make them pause.

Passing bodily fliuds is not the healthiest thhing to do now days, blood on your skin is one thing, but in your mouth under your tongue is one of the quickest way to get it into your system. Be it H-ABC r Aids or whatever gross out. I know you are jesting but this something to think about!!! I riddle you this, What happens then?

Posted by: Diabolic

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/11/06 10:20 PM

Pack your pants w/peanut butter.

I dont remember where I heard this, movie, tv, book or something.
A guy was facing going to jail for something, but prior to him attending court he packed his @$$ w/peanut butter. Then in the middle of court he reached in his pants and pulled out the peanut butter and started eating it. The judge ruled him to be insane and he didnt go to prison.
Just do that, but remember to always pack yourself w/peanut butter

Posted by: theoldone

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/12/06 01:02 PM

ROFLMBO!!

Quote:

Pack your pants w/peanut butter.
I dont remember where I heard this, movie, tv, book or something.
A guy was facing going to jail for something, but prior to him attending court he packed his @$$ w/peanut butter. Then in the middle of court he reached in his pants and pulled out the peanut butter and started eating it. The judge ruled him to be insane and he didnt go to prison.
Just do that, but remember to always pack yourself w/peanut butter

Posted by: Neko456

Re: Multiple Attackers; How would you handle it? - 03/15/06 05:04 PM

Crazy!!! But you don't give your attackers/cell mates nor the jugde much credit for smarts, the two masses have different aromas.

Sound like an extra 2-5 more years or a visit to the real Crazy house or a real down and dirty a$$ whipping mixed with dirt, PB and your blood.

I'd rather try the "I FEARED for LIFE plead" or "All right, but some us are going get hurt bad!".

Pack PB in your pants, NOT GOOD advice, a messy joke though.