Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition

Posted by: Gavin

Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 06:47 AM

Hi folks,

I mentioned in a Paradoxbox's thread in the Talk forum about a incident that happened in a nearby town to me a couple of weeks ago. Just incase you missed it here it is:

Quote:

This weekend the Manager of the bar I work at handed me a memo that had been cascaded down from his head office. Just over 2 weeks ago at a cinema in a nearby town (The Odeon in the Festival Leisure Park, Basildon, Essex - for the locals who are interested) an individual sat down in the cinema and felt a sharp pain. When they looked down they found part of a needle sticking out of the seat, and it alledgedly had a note saying "Now you've got HIV too!". Apparently Police have found needles in the rejected coins slots of vending machines to.

I've not heard this confirmed as gospel, but its not the first time I've heard of this happening and the Head office for the chain of bars I do security for felt it nessacary to cascade the memo.



Apart from thoroughly digusting me, it has also greatly worried me. These sick individuals are sticking their needles in places where people wouldn't think twice about sticking parts of their bodies near, public seats, vending machines, pay phones, etc. Yesterday I can personally think of atleast 3 occasions where I could have been caught out, I used a vending machince at work, sitting down for lunch yesterday in a restruant and sitting down in the pub last night after training.

This then got me thinking back to a conversation with a Police Officer friend who was telling me about the lengths some criminals will go to protect themselves. My friend said that the use of infected needles is common place for booby trapping their base of operations. Needles have been found attached to stair railings, along walkways and in curtains. The stronger larger needles have apparantly been super glued to the floor and stuck up through the carpet and are strong enough to penatrate through thin soled shoes.

I personally find it a terrifying pontential weapon also, it is extremely easy to conceal and requires very little effort to use. I think this is a new threat that from a self protection point of view we need to start to prepare for. Extra vigilance needs to be used in our everyday lives, sitting in public places, using vending machines and even running our hands along public stairwells. Doorman and LEO's should exercise extreme caution as path of the course when searching, this is covered in basic searching training.

I was talking to some people over the weekend and some mentioned about that if caught quick enough it is possible to treat H.I.V before the infection gets a chance to take hold. I haven't had much of a chance to do any concrete research into this yet, I was wondering if some of our more medically qualified members could possibly clarify. I have also heard that H.I.V does not have a high survival rate outside of the body, if so, is there much risk of infection from needles being left in vending machines?

Many thanks in advance for any infomation.

Gav
Posted by: nekogami13 V2.0

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 07:29 AM

Needle stories are Urban Myth.
HIV is actually rather frail, does not survive outside the body for any significant amount of time.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 07:38 AM

Quote:

HIV is actually rather frail, does not survive outside the body for any significant amount of time.



Must admit that was my understanding aswell, but I believed that was exposure to open air. Would its survival rate be higher if the needle was carrying infected blood?

Also I'm sorry if this is an urban myth. Its just something that scared the living crap out of me. I don't want to cause mass panic, perhaps I should research a bit further before wildly posting stuff on the net. Sorry guys!
Posted by: nekogami13 V2.0

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 08:05 AM

HIV is relatively frail outside the body-common household cleaners,soap, bleach kill it easily. Temperature variations(low or high) kill it. I'd be more worried about Hepatitis infection from a needle stick.

Also define "needle". A sewing needle will not harbor enough blood or protect what there is from oxidation to present any significant chance of HIV infection.
A syringe,where there is a hollow chamber to trap some volume of blood and protect it, presents a slightly higher chance.

Every couple of years, these needle stick stories pop up-I am sure by now some bonehead has actually set up/stuck people by now. Then again, don't get drunk in a bar with a pretty women-you will wake up missing a kidney!!!!
Posted by: Cord

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 08:08 AM

HIV may be fragile, but Hep C is sturdy and just as deadly. Everyone in LE, security and ER should have their hep jabs.

The other common thing is for hiding needles/syringes in long or dreadlocked hair. This is a form of concealment, and also as a potential booby trap for police during searches.

We have a halfway house near my families pub. Its full of junkies and prostitiutes and others on the fringes of society, When we get heavy rain, the houses that back on to the rear of the hostel have syringes/needles wash into their garages and gardens. Cambridge has 3 needle exchanges in the city, between them they dish out over 150,000 fresh needles each year, and we are a city said to have a 'minor' drug problem in the grand scheme of things!
Most opertunistic burglary is fuelled by the need for drug money, so if I ever run into an intruder/theif on the properties I patrol, the chances are that they will be in posession of drug related equipment, including needles.
Its a worry, but If I ever got spiked I would not be the only one going to hospital, court case be damned.
It always amazes me that such crimes never get prosecuted as attempted murder, its always 'wounding with intent' or 'GBH'. My logic is that if I stick an infected needle in someone, I know the consequences and intent are lethal, and I should be tried as such. How do you hurt someone 'a little bit' with Hep C/ HIV?
Its all to do with not having enough prison cells, and government statistics trying to convince us the country isnt going to hell.

I have very strong views on this sort of stuff, so will tread carefully in the interest of the thread continuing.

*Cord heads off to relieve stress through Mortal Kombat-Shaolin Monks*
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 09:10 AM

Far clarication I am talking about hypodermic needles.

Cord you're a 100% on the hep jabs....but guess who's the prat who has being doing Doorwork and has always found something more important do to for years???? Yep, that be me. I'm going to make a point of getting down the clinic and having the jab. Think my tetanus jab is up renewal as well. The last one I had was three years ago when I was biten while trying to get a guy out. I'll have to check.

I also can't see how anyone could not be charged with atleast attempted manslaugher....even attempted is a little weak for me, afterall their actions will eventually result in your death. I also agree 3000000% that if someone stuck you with a needle they should be guaranteed a one way ticket to hospital. I'd be interested to see where the law would stand on your legal right to put them in hospital? Obviously once they've stuck you the threat is over. Dunno, rhetorical question really, as I know that god forbid it should happen, legalities would be the last thing on my mind.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 09:31 AM

This USE to be an urban legend

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/georgia/news-article.aspx?storyid=45212

Quote:

Athens Police Investigate Needle That Pricked Woman in Theater

ATHENS, GA (AP) -- Police in Athens say a hypodermic needle that pricked a woman in a movie theater was intentionally taped to a seat to injure someone. In the needle's syringe was a small amount of what appeared to be blood but authorities have not yet identified it.

Police Major Keith Morris says the needle and syringe have been sent to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to examine the liquid, to see if it contains any diseases and to check for fingerprints.

Police say the needle prick happened Saturday as the woman -- whose name has been withheld -- went to see a movie with a group of friends. She told police she felt a prick in her thigh when she sat down. Duct tape had been used to attach the needle to the theater seat.

Morris says that so far, the woman has not shown any ill effects from the prick.



This is in my town, in a theatre I regularly visit and is less than 5 miles from my house.

Contents were too small to do DNA and infectious agents test so they opted for the second one for the saftey of the woman.

Pretty sure I'm not alone when I say this scares the [censored] out of me.
Posted by: Cord

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 09:57 AM

Quote:

so far, the woman has not shown any ill effects from the prick.



Its finaly happened. After over 2000 posts I find an inuendo that i just cant find funny. Any other topic with this sentence in it and i would LMAO. As it is I just feel sad about the world we live in.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/20/05 10:01 AM

A guy that test for HIV or Aids or Hep C if he spits on you while in the performance of your duty, was an felony offense before I retired from LEO, (I still do Security and BG work). The druggies and criminal elements are almost like fight bio chem antagonist now days. Rubber gloves or just as important as hand cuffs. Getting bleed on can kill you now days. Purposely transmitting these disease should be like 1st degree Murder charges.

There was a group of Men and Women in the USA with Aids and Hep C, leaving the message on their partner's/motel's bathroom mirrors, "Welcome to the world of Aids or Hep C"!!! Always strap up.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/21/05 12:13 AM

Ok, two things on this thread. First, being the reciever in anal intercourse carries the odds of about 1 in 50 of getting infected with HIV. I don't know the stats for Hep C. Second, should something like this happen, they do now have a treatment that if administered within 24 hours of such an incident, the odds of infection are reduced to less than 1%. Within 72 hours, and the odds of infection are 25%. As mentioned, for Hep C, get your immunization, especially if you are prone to contact with other peoples bodily fluids.

My personal thoughts are that such acts are heinous crimes, and people who perform such acts should be charged with Murder 1 and publicly hung.
Posted by: Chanters

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/21/05 03:28 AM

I heard you need to be exposed by huge amounts of spit (approx 10 pints) before you're in danger of HIV or aids. Blood however is a different matter.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/21/05 12:49 PM

I'm not into such detail studies but I am scared as hell of being infected so Rubber or under leather gloves work for me. Note I hear this stuff is so vile it will penertrate leather and still GET YOU!!!!

Thanks for the Info I'll start using 2 pair of rubber gloves.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/21/05 12:55 PM

I'm not sure about HIV or Aids but I hear it doesn't take that much if it gets into your mouth or nose or a open cut and you got Hep C.

Infected Blood is always bad news totally. Man you guys are scarring me, I'd rather be hit square in the face then spit on now days. Its like fighting bio terriorist, who's spit is infected??? Almost like the Red scare of the 50s in the USA everybody was communist??
Posted by: schanne

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/21/05 01:22 PM

Never heard that one but there have been incident where people have said they have HIV and had needles in their hand and were going to attack. In any case I would personlly treat an attack of a contaminated needle the same as a knife or gun.
Posted by: Alex89

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/21/05 08:14 PM

I always watch my seat before I seat down in any kind of seat. I usually out my coat or something under me. My friends think im paranoid.lol
Posted by: Kujaku

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/26/05 02:49 PM

hah, I used to do that as well, i saw in cops a cop get stuck with a syringe and they told him to make it bleed, just to mkae yourself bleed as much as possible and wash it off alot. I dunno, there is also meds you can take within the first 24 hours that you take or something that will reduce the chances of you getting HIV. I dunno, but still, this [censored] scary.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/26/05 04:03 PM

Good info in this thread guys. All I can say is.......damn.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 10/26/05 06:58 PM

Yep agreed, I just wanted to say thanks to all those who contributed. All the info and opinions! This is a scary topic!
Posted by: dud

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 12/15/05 10:30 AM

Good thread.I had been thinking a lot about this danger before reading this.

What if I fail to prevent the attack and I find myself with a needle against my throat?

We have a stereotype of the bad guys. It is easy to be aware against a shady looking fellow, dirty clothes, smelly, eyes rolling and shining under the moon, visible from miles away as a bad beast

But the REAL criminal, like the serial killers, are intelligent and cold persons. They will come well dressed, with charming and innocent smiles, giving us their cards for a job or a business, stablishing a friendship, etc. It is not THAT easy to be aware against such kind of people, totally different from our tipical night stalker with the crazy eyes!

So, if we fail, and the needle shoves against our skin, what to do?

I would:
a) Complain until the point I believe reasonable (no tighting my hands, no van, no secondary scene).
b) If he doesn´t leave after receiving what he wants (and the guy described earlier, wants to KILL ME, so he won´t let go) I would seek a psychological distraction and then
c) Push away his 'weapon' with my two hands againt his limb (wrist, arm,etc), not touching the syringe.
d) A strike for opening (maybe a kick to the jewells or something. I have his arm grabbed with my two hands).
e) Best Martial Art on Earth: RUN - DO.

Any other idea?

Even though AIDS is frail, dager remains as long as this syringe can be plenty of God knows what! Ebola, Anthrax, a new virus, poison, acid, or whatever you like! So, let us consider the danger more cautiously!
Dud
Posted by: Khayman

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 12/20/05 07:45 AM

Excellent thread. I was involved in an incident a while ago whilst working at a nightclub. Someone came up to the front door feeling ill and saying they had been stabbed by a needle. Soon we had other people coming up reporting being jabbed.
The door team were obviously concerned, a potential nutter in the venue and also the panic that could ensue.
Luckly we found out it was someone playing a joke with a pin and the intial victim recovered soon after.
I think every member of the team was scared though, one even ran out to get a stab vest from his car
Scary incident though.
Posted by: Gavin

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 12/20/05 08:08 AM

Howdy Khayman! Where do you do the door in Essex???

Gav
Posted by: Khayman

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 12/21/05 05:01 AM

Hi Gavin,

I retired just over a year ago
Before this I worked for over 4 years in the Colchester area. I worked across a number of clubs (some small venues 2-3 team, some large venues (10-14 team).
I used to work alongside Mark (who has not posted here for a while).
When the new license came in I was about to get married and planning to have a child, it seemed the right time to leave.
Posted by: Grayston

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 12/27/05 11:24 AM

Quote:

This weekend the Manager of the bar I work at handed me a memo that had been cascaded down from his head office. Just over 2 weeks ago at a cinema in a nearby town (The Odeon in the Festival Leisure Park, Basildon, Essex - for the locals who are interested) an individual sat down in the cinema and felt a sharp pain. When they looked down they found part of a needle sticking out of the seat, and it alledgedly had a note saying "Now you've got HIV too!". Apparently Police have found needles in the rejected coins slots of vending machines to.

I've not heard this confirmed as gospel, but its not the first time I've heard of this happening and the Head office for the chain of bars I do security for felt it nessacary to cascade the memo.



Hmmm. That's my local Cinema and I'm not going there for a while (shudder)...

Respectfully,
Posted by: trevek

Re: Needles and intentional H.I.V infectition - 12/27/05 11:39 AM

Quote:

I heard you need to be exposed by huge amounts of spit (approx 10 pints) before you're in danger of HIV or aids. Blood however is a different matter.



Hep B and C are the biggies with saliva. There was once a warning passed around in Belfast because the flute bands had a practice of swapping flutes as they marched. The papers said that it was possible to pass infection through the band in this way.

As for urban myths, they can turn to reality cos someone copycats them. I had a friend whose son was mugged at needle point.