What is the most effective kick for the streets?
Posted by: Neko456
What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/14/05 11:41 AM
What is the most effective kick for the streets? We all know that the most effective kick to use in a street attack is the one that takes him out.
But to do this which one would it be. From my street fighting experince its been the front kick low level, with toe of shoe or heel. Or the low level heel or flat of the shoe side kick. The quick flip round kick to the nuts has worked.
But most often the front kick low has been the most successful. Which has worked for you?
Some people believe that any kick in the street is risky, that has not been my experince. Its either opened a door to end or was the end. Its one the strongest weapon we have, it would be like leaving the shotgun in the Squad car, not to use them IMHO.
Posted by: Belnick
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/14/05 01:01 PM
I think kicking is always a risky thing, almost never when I fought, but now I might consider it, after I hit him with a few punches, I would not just go in and kick and give him a chance to catch it, no I would press, punch punch punch and bang then the kick would come, prolly go with a low roundhouse(still not sure of the english names) on the side of the knee and hoping he had his weight on the that leg while I kicked it...
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/14/05 01:11 PM
I would say a low stamp kick to the knee with heel.
Why?
1.Its not a high kick so it can not be caught, only deflected.
2. Unlikely to be deflected because if you are looking at him in the eyes and he is looking back he probably wont even see it coming because it would be below his line of vision.
3. You can close the gap that way safely and then follow in with punches/whatever
4. His knee is probably going to break if it has any weight on it, and if its not it will still hurt like a mother...
5. Keeps the opponent out of punching range.
6. Its a quick delivery that has no telegraphing, you got to be pretty crap to telegraph that kick.
7. It does not require flexibility in the legs
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/14/05 01:46 PM
I'd say roundhouse to the side of the knee. The front of the patella is quite resilient but a decent kick to the side should do some damage. It also presents a larger target area which is important under stress and it is a low kick, reducing the chance of the kick being caught or losing balance. That said, the kick may be awkward to use, especially if you're used to using your shin to kick with.
Probably best to leave out kicks alltogether.
Posted by: nekogami13 V2.0
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/14/05 02:16 PM
Your opponents kick.
There is just so much you can do with it.
Posted by: Cord
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/15/05 02:51 AM
'soccer'kick to the front of the shin is easy to perform without losing balance, and, when wearing steel toe caps, very painfull. Not an ma technique but a good one.
Posted by: BulldogTKD
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 02:59 AM
I would say a round kick to the head. Every time I kicked to the head in a street fight the poor fella want down!
Posted by: Belnick
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/15/05 03:26 AM
Quote:
'soccer'kick to the front of the shin is easy to perform without losing balance, and, when wearing steel toe caps, very painfull. Not an ma technique but a good one.
lol a "girl" kick ? 
steelcap shoes, lol, I work in those, if I can kick into a steelcontainer and create a huge bump I wonder what can de done to his shin 
Posted by: Cord
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/15/05 03:52 AM
Quote:
if I can kick into a steelcontainer and create a huge bump I wonder what can de done to his shin
Exactly 
You also maintain a good body position whilst doing it, so whatever guard you adopt (if any in such circumstances) is easy to maintain.It is also difficult to grab, and extremely quick to execute. If you catch em a little high you come in on the tendon just below the knee cap in a hard upward motion. Either way if you connect it certainly gets their attention. No such thing as 'best' but i like this one.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 06:28 AM
Quote:
I would say a round kick to the head. Every time I kicked to the head in a street fight the poor fella want down!
Thats probably because they didnt know how to fight. A high kick is hard to pull off, especially against someone experienced. You must be really good to deliver something effective, and it has to be first time, because otherwise you will find yourself on your back in less time than it takes to say: "oops"!
Cord. Its better to stamp down than an upwards shin kick because the because its pretty easy to avoid it (you just have to lift your leg, and when your leg hits the air you will be off balance. Its better to stamp down because unless the dude has some pretty nifty footwork, you are definetely going to connect with something, and you can put your weight behind it, and you can close the gap to follow up with punches.
This is just from my experience and opinion.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 07:02 AM
The one fight I did kick in (before MA), it was basically a front kick to the groin (I never believed in a "clean" fight). The guy went straight to the ground and the fight was over. I would say a good front kick to the groin.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/15/05 08:02 AM
I love a short sharp step up front kick. Something I used a few times, covers lots of ground. I once had a guy trying to step in and attack me while working the door once, the front kick at solar plexus knock the wind (and fight) out of him completely. To the groin this kick is lovely! At the end of the day to answer your question though, the best kick to use is the one that works!
Posted by: Gemini
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/15/05 08:07 AM
Front kick initially, but anything targeting the knees as opportunity presents.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/15/05 08:43 AM
An MA after my own heart!
Posted by: BulldogTKD
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 09:23 AM
Sorry MAGr, I was just being sarcastic. This topic seems to keep popping up, but I have kicked to the head and they do go down and they did know how to fight and I guess since a head kick seems to be something so difficult to pull of on the street I must be good.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 10:06 AM
If I've got the opening, even I will try a high kick, IF I've got the opening.
Posted by: Cord
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 11:08 AM
MAGr, you have to remember that the times I have utilised this, i was not a practicing MA and would not have had the technique to put my hip behind a front stamp. I have raked down shins to a very hard foot stamp, in messy up close encounters. lifting the leg in a thai style block is not in the capabilities of any drunken idiot I have had the displeasure of dealing with. If they have put their fists up and are not going to be escorted without lashing out, i found coming in hard with this kick,and using the momentum to get inside to tie em up in a headlock or come-along worked better than starting with my hands, which they were more prepared for. Now I have a little ability in Karate and Savate, so have a few more options with my legs, yet no longer do a job where I may be called upon to use them
I acknowledge that if comfortable with the technique, direct pressure against the joint has more potential to debilatate, my suggestion is not pretty but does produce a shocking amount of pain, with maximum balance retention.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 11:11 AM
The only time I'd head kick in self defense is if I'd managed to force the assailant's head to below waist level. Other than that I'd say it's too risky.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 11:45 AM
Sounds like a tried and tested technique to me, you ve got it sussed mate. And who am I to argue against facts!
Keep up the good work!
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 12:25 PM
Leo_49 wrote - Probably best to leave out kicks alltogether.
Why leave the shotgun in the squad car? Kicking is an art just like anyother part, if the chance to end a situation comes up you should be able to take advantage. Kicking at a distance is risky but powerful, when a guy thinks he gonna catch your leg and you change up, you can score a KO. I've ended multiple attacks by side kicking their leader into a ground fetal position. They usually dragged him away and leave.
I also find it instinctive to chop kick a guy after punching his nose or eye, or staggering him anykind of way. Its just so hard to defend and its unexpected that while recovering from a stunning eye watering strike that their legs are chopped out from under them, they are limping or they crumble to the ground holding their knee. Its really better for their legs that the kick upends them, so the knees or thigh don't take the full force of the kick.
More realistic then the Hollywood Gun blowing people through doors r windows the kick can do it.
I also have KO'd guys that, bent over WAITING for a groin kick, only to be flipped or dropped by shin kick to the head, over his shoulder or heel kick to the temple. I won't do it unless its just right, you know it. When you raise the front leg and their hands reach for it and they kind of close their eyes or their wide eyed & tunnel visioned. BINGO!! Lights out.
Using your entire arsenal makes you doubling effective.
Posted by: Cord
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/15/05 04:31 PM
I would never say i got it sussed
it has worked for me, it does hurt and i havent fallen/been grabbed trying it. If it misses you can still use the momentum to get in grabbing/clinch range, but like anything it can go tits up very easily
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/16/05 12:30 AM
Quote:
Leo_49 wrote - Probably best to leave out kicks alltogether.
Why leave the shotgun in the squad car? Kicking is an art just like anyother part, if the chance to end a situation comes up you should be able to take advantage. Kicking at a distance is risky but powerful, when a guy thinks he gonna catch your leg and you change up, you can score a KO. I've ended multiple attacks by side kicking their leader into a ground fetal position. They usually dragged him away and leave.
I also find it instinctive to chop kick a guy after punching his nose or eye, or staggering him anykind of way. Its just so hard to defend and its unexpected that while recovering from a stunning eye watering strike that their legs are chopped out from under them, they are limping or they crumble to the ground holding their knee. Its really better for their legs that the kick upends them, so the knees or thigh don't take the full force of the kick.
More realistic then the Hollywood Gun blowing people through doors r windows the kick can do it.
I also have KO'd guys that, bent over WAITING for a groin kick, only to be flipped or dropped by shin kick to the head, over his shoulder or heel kick to the temple. I won't do it unless its just right, you know it. When you raise the front leg and their hands reach for it and they kind of close their eyes or their wide eyed & tunnel visioned. BINGO!! Lights out.
Using your entire arsenal makes you doubling effective.
I said "probably". Kicks are risky, like you said. If you aren't really good at them and haven't already stunned your assailant then it's easy to miss and the recovery time could be the end of you. Besides, if you've already stunned the opponent, why the hell are you still there? Finishing moves are for comic books and video games, escape should be the aim of any SD routine.
Posted by: madfrank
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/16/05 08:23 AM
Hi all
Kicks, especially head kicks, are for competitions and the movies.
Anyone who says otherwise has never been in a fight.
95% of fights happen at bad breath distance.
Get real guys
MF
Posted by: globetrotter
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/16/05 09:12 AM
I am the first to agree that fancy and high kicks have no place in a fight, but low kicks, to the knees, shins, ankles, can be very effective. aside from inflicting damage, they can help you regulate the range (be in control of the distance between yourself and the other guy) and they can throw him off balance if he is worried about your legs.
Posted by: Pess
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/16/05 10:59 AM
I mainly use three, depending on the situation:
Kick to the groin
Kick to the knee
Scrape kick along the shin down on the foot
Don't really need much else ^_^
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/16/05 11:40 AM
Being a MA you train to have great control but few of us can stop in the mist of battle to remember or Question "Am I my brothers keeper". If you are such a person I bow to your great control. But if attack and I hurt him I won't quit until he is in the fetus postion. Then the worst part happens the lecture, they hate that. "What were you trying to do, What If I was as terrible a person as you". Imagine what else I could do to you. Then I turn and run away. But I don't have your control he punches I counter with a deflecting returning leapord paw to his throat, he staggers back and I don't kick him in the balls or elbow him in the face and take down.
We fight the way we train, I can't imagine you easy up after U stagger an attacker either. But as mentioned if you got that kind of control I am envious.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/16/05 11:46 AM
You guys are right but if he's really open for it and it will end the fight, Why not? If you really know how to kick its just a quick flick of the hip to KO him. I agreed that this tactic shouldn't be your main plan of defense or counter, but fighting statistics are hindsights. If the situation can be resolved by a surprise attack use it.
It all goes back to the appropiate tool at the appropiate time/range. The element of surprise works better then statistics, in real fights.
Posted by: BulldogTKD
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/16/05 09:02 PM
Quote:
You guys are right but if he's really open for it and it will end the fight, Why not? If you really know how to kick its just a quick flick of the hip to KO him. I agreed that this tactic shouldn't be your main plan of defense or counter, but fighting statistics are hindsights. If the situation can be resolved by a surprise attack use it.
It all goes back to the appropiate tool at the appropiate time/range. The element of surprise works better then statistics, in real fights.
Well said. I still don't understand why some people say high kicks have no place for the street. Does grappeling have a place in the street? Do I take down my attacker and grapple with him not knowing if he has friends around? Point is use the tool you have for the situation! If you think that doing a high kick to the chest or haed will not work in the street then you have never been in a real street fight! If you engauge in street combat, that is what it is you know, then you better be ready to follow through with your defence. Fighting on the street is no game and I don't think some people here realize that. It's not play fighting, it's for real and you fight for real. If you are not ready to do that then you better run, or defuse the situation, that is self defense too you know.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/17/05 06:14 AM
BulldogTKD, mostly it has to do with the legal issues involved, regardless of whether you have the opening for a high kick. You hit the person in the wrong spot with a kick, you need to be able to justify risking permanent injury/death to the person. A kick to the groin is debilitating for a short while, but is not likely to kill most people. A kick to the head, especially when you need to get out of an area quickly, can be lethal if the guy gets a concussion and no medical treatment. Try convincing a jury that you were only defending yourself against a punch and you killed the guy because you kicked him in the head and then left him for dead.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/17/05 07:02 AM
In a real fight, I don't really feel that you have a lot of choice as to what you do it just kinda happens. Your body, with the right training ofcourse, just does the most appropriate thing. My body has done some stuff in the past, that I didn't I'd could do. Think we've all had this experience when sparring. You'll be going about your business trying to land a shot and doing a bit of dodging, them bam, you land a peach of a shot. You can usually tell these sort of shots, coz your partner looks at you as to say "Where the hell did that come from?", and you reply "Dunno, but it was cool though!"
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/17/05 07:16 AM
High kicks have no place in the streets because they are low percentage shots! Other strikes have a higher chance of landing and thats why they shoud be used. Save your high kicks for competitions and sparring. In a street fight you use the down and dirty techniques.
Thats my opinion and thats what i intend to do.
Posted by: Gavin
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/17/05 07:44 AM
I do agree. But I've got a friend who has brilliant head kicks, seen him a couple of times whip out a side kick on the street. But he's freak, personally the chance I stand of kicking someone in the head is when they're on the floor!
Posted by: JayJay
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/17/05 02:03 PM
Quote:
Hi all
Kicks, especially head kicks, are for competitions and the movies.
Anyone who says otherwise has never been in a fight.
95% of fights happen at bad breath distance.
Get real guys
MF
I have to agree a little. I, however, dont think kicks a useless by any means. A good 'ol front kick is the best IMHO. Short range, quick and good against the lower and mid sections. I agree with Bushi about the groin, also the kidneys and just below the solar plexus spring to mind, bascially the soft bits under the rib cage. I also think turning kicks to the knees could be effective. All while using hand techniques, of course. I used to do TKD but to be honest, I'm not that keen on kicks to the head. My 2cents.
Posted by: OperationSkinnyNinja
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/17/05 06:36 PM
A good hard mid-level front kick seems to work more often than you'd expect, but I refer primarily to its use against untrained opponents who go into that forward-leaning stance when they throw an obvious haymaker or badly executed strike. They lean so far forward they upper stomache is pretty exposed and that is a bad place to be kicked. A very bad place. But again, that's for those slow untrained street folks.. just my opinion.
Posted by: True_Paladin
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/17/05 06:45 PM
I find that a good old fasioned side kick or straight kick work fine
Posted by: warriortobe
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 11:55 AM
You are very missguided. With the proper training high kicks are easy and very effective!
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 12:25 PM
Do you know what low percentage means?
High kicks are low percentage, other things held equal a high kick has a lower percentage of connecting than a low kick, if you think otherwise than I am afraid it is you who is misguided.
I never said that you wont make it, or that you cant knock someone out with one, I have seen it done; but would you risk it in a fight?
If you miss a high kick against someone trained you will be on your bum faster than you can say "oh..cr.."
If you miss a low kick yuo can recover much easier.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 12:49 PM
I totally agree the odds are against you using high kicks in a street situation unless its a giveme, he so wide open for it he's asking for it. Otherwise. The lower the kick the better.
1. A fast hand combination that hurts him followed by a crushing front kick usually have the popping in the wind like a flags on a winding day. 2. Or the side step obleck kick or side kick to the inside of the knee as he finish a step, forearm to the face. 2. Or slid out, the low round kick to knee with shin or instep to grions, overhand right to temple. 3.Jab, instep stomp, upper elbow. Safe techniques to enter with.
Low kicks are safer and flow naturally, but if hes posing waiting for a left hand both hands in front of his face ready to block the left hook, in a crouch. The back of his head is too tempting. If not KOd, he's staggering around like a helpless drunk and never got a chance to touch you.
Feels like hitting a home run, with a Loiusville slugger, thats a bat for you non USA, Masters.
Don't leave your shotgun or Bat in the car. Agree its a oppurtunistic situation, and others strikes could be used, that are safer.
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/20/05 01:57 PM
Quote:
'soccer'kick to the front of the shin is easy to perform without losing balance, and, when wearing steel toe caps, very painfull. Not an ma technique but a good one.
In Silat this is called a Lift Kick and done to the ankles, shins, knee caps & groin. This is a very effective kick with a lot of power.
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 02:05 PM
Quote:
BulldogTKD, mostly it has to do with the legal issues involved, regardless of whether you have the opening for a high kick. You hit the person in the wrong spot with a kick, you need to be able to justify risking permanent injury/death to the person. A kick to the groin is debilitating for a short while, but is not likely to kill most people. A kick to the head, especially when you need to get out of an area quickly, can be lethal if the guy gets a concussion and no medical treatment. Try convincing a jury that you were only defending yourself against a punch and you killed the guy because you kicked him in the head and then left him for dead.
Acording to the Law and Law Enforcement Use Of Force Matrix the Head and Groin are both leathal shots!
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 02:22 PM
Quote:
What is the most effective kick for the streets? We all know that the most effective kick to use in a street attack is the one that takes him out.
Well I would have to say the Silat Shock Kick. This is a unique low level kick that produces enough force to snap the opponents shin bone like a toothpick! (Been there done that)
The kick generates force by stomping into the ground with the opposite foot first and then redirecting the shock wave of power out the other foot and into the desired target as you shift your weight forwards into the kick. (very powerful)
The kick is also extremely fast and hidden because there is no telegraphing at all. You never look like you are going to throw a kick.
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 03:13 PM
According to LE manuals and matrices, it may be considered lethal, thus grounds to take a person in, but according to most juries, a groin kick is considered viable self defense. If I were LEO, I wouldn't take someone in when the situation was clearly SD just because I have a manual that says to treat a groin kick as lethal. And remember that in a court of law, medical evidence takes precedence over a LE manual.
Posted by: schanne
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 03:24 PM
Side kick
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 03:30 PM
Quote:
According to LE manuals and matrices, it may be considered lethal, thus grounds to take a person in, but according to most juries, a groin kick is considered viable self defense. If I were LEO, I wouldn't take someone in when the situation was clearly SD just because I have a manual that says to treat a groin kick as lethal. And remember that in a court of law, medical evidence takes precedence over a LE manual.
Um,
Apparently you don't have a clue to what I'm talking about!
There is no Law Enforcement manual that dictates how you arrest someone for the technique they used in striking another person.
There are laws that go up in charge for where and with what was used such as weapons but a kick to the groin and a punch to the jaw is still battery.
The Use Of Force Matrix is used for Law Enforcement Officers in defending themselves, not citizens defending themselves.
The bottom line is a groin shot has the potential to kill and why it's a lethal technique. If you are defending yourself and you kick someone in the groin and kill them believe a jury will put your butt in prison for manslaughter!
Read the papers sometime and see how many Martial Artist go to prison for legitimately defending themselves!
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 04:32 PM
Whoops, misread your post. In CA, even a punch to the head can be assault with a deadly weapon if you are the aggressor (esp. with known MA or boxing training), whereas the low percentage of relatively healthy people who are killed by a groin kick leaves that as a viable means of self defense. It's temporarily debilitating, but rarely has any lasting damage (other than maybe impotence/sterility). Using a gun or nightstick however, are different stories. Then you are talking about the capability to cause severe bleeding, external if shot, internal if by a nightstick.
On the note of the impotence/sterility thing, in this area, if a man were to start a fight with me (he is the aggressor) and then tried to sue me for his impotence or sterility, any of the civil court judges would laugh as they threw the case out, saying that if you don't want to get kicked in the groin, don't start fights with people who will defend themselves.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/20/05 05:10 PM
Quote by Warriortobe -
Quote:
You are very missguided. With the proper training high kicks are easy and very effective!
Of course, great one! SO EASY!!!!
*rolls eyes*
Posted by: streetsensei21
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/21/05 01:06 AM
Font kick.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/21/05 01:20 PM
PPST - There are laws that go up in charge for where and with what was used such as weapons but a kick to the groin and a punch to the jaw is still battery.
Its battery if you are the attaker or aggessor, its self defense if you grion kick or whatever in defense, under the limit of the law. You are threaten or better yet attacked and you defend and stop after the threat is eliminated or is no longer a threat.
Its only man slaughter is you both agree to the fight and both engage in the conflict and one of you die. Accidently or on purpose during the fight. It can escalate to Murder 1 pending how vicous your intent was.
Its justifable Man Slaughter if you defend and he dies in the process, pending witness, police report, DAs review and maybe a trail.
Streetsensi21 I agree the front kick is the simplest and probably the most used and effective, in the street.
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/21/05 06:04 PM
Try convincing a jury that you were only defending yourself against a punch and you killed the guy because you kicked him in the head and then left him for dead.
The Karate Creed say's. I Come to you with only Karate-Empty Hands.
I Have no weapons,But should i be forced to defend myself,My principles or my honor,
Should it be a matter of life or death,Right or wrong,Then here are my weapons-Karate,My Empty Hands.
It doe's not say...I Come to you with polictly correctness,I have no reason to harm you b/c i'm afraid of going to jail.;)
Bushi,I Hope you'er never in a situation when you'll have to defend yourself,B/c i'm afraid that you might have think about what,Or how you will defend yourself,Which I'm sure would give the attacker the advantage.:)
PS It's better to be carried out by twelve,Than too be carried out by six.:)
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/21/05 06:12 PM
Jump spinning 540 heel kick.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/21/05 06:21 PM
Quote:
Jump spinning 540 heel kick.
Whilst doing a backflip over the bar!
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/21/05 08:09 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Jump spinning 540 heel kick.
Whilst doing a backflip over the bar!
Now, that's funny.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/21/05 11:34 PM
Ummmmmmm...
If you do anything that results in someone getting....dead, and it is determined to be unreasonable under the given circumstances, you could be charged.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/21/05 11:40 PM
Quote:
Acording to the Law and Law Enforcement Use Of Force Matrix the Head and Groin are both leathal shots!
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
What matrix is that? The head is considered a lethal target depending what weapon you are using, as is the groin.
To simplify them as lethal targets because a certain LE agency lists it in their policy is a bit off base.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 12:36 AM
IRK4L, I'm not trained to think, nor am I trained to use high kicks in a SD situation. There is no think, but there is plenty of striking the groin. If you have the opportunity to kick someone in the head, unless they have a weapon, don't. Don't even train for it in your SD training. AKK might go overboard on some of the technique extensions, but if you really have to go that far in defending yourself, then you should be able to justify yourself before a jury. "I had a real problem getting him to stay down after he attacked me and I defended myself, and he was just that much bigger than me. I really didn't have a choice, it was me or him. I mean the first three strikes would drop most people, but it wasn't enough, I had no choice but to continue."
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 04:39 AM
Its battery if you are the attaker or aggessor, its self defense if you grion kick or whatever in defense, under the limit of the law. You are threaten or better yet attacked and you defend and stop after the threat is eliminated or is no longer a threat.
Sorry but the groin is a lethal blow BY LAW and if you kick someone there and kill them you better be able to prove it was necessary!
Its only man slaughter is you both agree to the fight and both engage in the conflict and one of you die. Accidently or on purpose during the fight. It can escalate to Murder 1 pending how vicous your intent was.
Wrong! Manslaughter is for an accidental killing, it has nothing to do with mutual combat. For that matter nothing to do with combat or fighting at all, it is for killing someone by accident by any means such as drunk driving, medical personnel not doing their job, a chef serving outdated food or etc.
Its justifable Man Slaughter if you defend and he dies in the process, pending witness, police report, DAs review and maybe a trail.
Wrong again! It's Justifiable Homicide, Manslaughter is a crime, hence why go to prison on a Felony charge.
I am a certified Law Enforcement Officer and former Deputy Sheriff and I don't know where your getting your misguided Law information from but please stop before you get yourself or someone else in a whole lot of legal trouble!
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 04:48 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Acording to the Law and Law Enforcement Use Of Force Matrix the Head and Groin are both leathal shots!
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
What matrix is that? The head is considered a lethal target depending what weapon you are using, as is the groin.
To simplify them as lethal targets because a certain LE agency lists it in their policy is a bit off base.
Fletch1,
The LAW says the groin is a lethal area and why ALL Police Academies teach it as such and why Law Enforcement Agencies put it in their Use Of Force manuals for Officers to know so if it happens the blame goes to the officer in question and not the department.
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 05:16 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Acording to the Law and Law Enforcement Use Of Force Matrix the Head and Groin are both leathal shots!
Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
What matrix is that? The head is considered a lethal target depending what weapon you are using, as is the groin.
To simplify them as lethal targets because a certain LE agency lists it in their policy is a bit off base.
Fletch1,
I thought I recognized that handle! From the Law Enforcement & Security board!
Fletch Fuller currently works in a large SW Florida Law Enforcement agency as an Investigator in the Street Gang Unit. As the Lead Instructor for Defensive Tactics, he also instructs various topics such as Use of Force, Taser, OC Spray, Side Handle Baton, Expandable Baton, and Police Driving. Fuller is a Field Training Officer and a member of the SWAT Team as well as member of the Florida Gang Investigators Association and ASLET. He also serves as a Staff Instructor for several programs such as The ISR Matrix and Tactical Edge Law Enforcement Training. He has worked in law enforcement since 1989.
Fletch whatcha busting my balls about this for? You have to know it's a Lethal area in any Law Enforcement Agency. I am a certified Florida Corrections & Law Enforcement Officer and You & I both know the Florida CJSTC puts the Groin on the lethal list!
What gives,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester!
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 05:42 AM
PPST, you are using a police manual out of context. Groin kicks have a less than one percent fatality rate (as has been observed). The main difference is that you, as a LEO, carry weapons as part of your job. Of course a groin attack is going to be lethal for you if you use a gun or baton. A kick just doesn't really have the potential to kill a healthy person. The shock might aggravate a currently existing medical problem, but if I am defending myself, that is not my problem. Whereas, concussions have a high rate occurence in ANY observable situation where head shots are used. There is no telling an unarmed civilian that the groin is a lethal target, BECAUSE THE CIVILIAN IS UNARMED.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 02:00 PM
Sorry Eddie,
The groin is not a Lethal Target by "law", only by selected policy depending on the circumstances. Just like the head. Otherwise a punch in the nose would justify being shot.
I'll give you an example.
Our agency uses the Monadnock Expandable Baton. In the certification training, we use an anatomical chart that shows prioroty/severity of targets broken down into green (primary), yellow (secondary) and red (lethal/last resort) targets. As of 1998, the groin had been moved from red (lethal) to yellow (secondary) as a target for a strike from a metal baton. Our agency and many like it have adopted and integrated this use of force model into the rest of the continuum.
What does this have to with a citizen's right to self defense? Not as much as you might think. An agency's decision to label the groin as a lethal target has as much to do with politics (training and administrative) and liability as it does criminal law.
Not trying to break your stones. I just don't like blanket statements about LE use of force models and their connection to citizen self defense models. They are clearly different.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 05:48 PM
I'm a ex-cop myself and here in the Southwest you can legal defend yourself, if you kill the guy then in defense of your life, you are right its Justifiiable Homoicide, you go free.
Here in the SW we have a "Make my day law" , you don't even have to be a active threat if you are caught in someone home they can shoot you dead. Never mind kick you in the grion or punch you in the head.
As for using these as self defense techniques I've kicked more men in the grion and punched them in the head before or afterwards then I've shot squirells (tree rats not LEO term for street thugs) in the head. So there is no blanket law on the interpetation of what consitute a threat low enough that you must play with the guy. You feared for your safety or life. Its a done deal.
Where are you from Nice and Neat, Anti-Gun Anti-self defense, only cops carry guns California?
We also have the Conceal Carry Law here, its dropped the assult on person crime rate by 30%, drugs rates gone up.
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/22/05 06:27 PM
Quote:
Sorry Eddie,
The groin is not a Lethal Target by "law", only by selected policy depending on the circumstances. Just like the head. Otherwise a punch in the nose would justify being shot.
I'll give you an example.
Our agency uses the Monadnock Expandable Baton. In the certification training, we use an anatomical chart that shows prioroty/severity of targets broken down into green (primary), yellow (secondary) and red (lethal/last resort) targets. As of 1998, the groin had been moved from red (lethal) to yellow (secondary) as a target for a strike from a metal baton. Our agency and many like it have adopted and integrated this use of force model into the rest of the continuum.
What does this have to with a citizen's right to self defense? Not as much as you might think. An agency's decision to label the groin as a lethal target has as much to do with politics (training and administrative) and liability as it does criminal law.
Not trying to break your stones. I just don't like blanket statements about LE use of force models and their connection to citizen self defense models. They are clearly different.
Fletch,
Thank for the update! I was told by the Academy DT Instructors and my Legal 3 instructor who was a Lawyer that groin kicks (strikes) were considered lethal by law and why they were taught as level 5 without a weapon and level 6 with a weapon.
Which is why I have always taught civilians that striking the groin is a POTENTIAL to kill strike. I was not blanketing my LEO standards to civilians but informing them of the effects.
I can now change the fact that it's not a lethal area by Law and downgrade the strikes.
Thank you for the knowledge,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/23/05 02:20 AM
No problem.
Depending on the circumstances....
Posted by: Chang Wufei
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/23/05 03:57 AM
I disagree that high kicks are impractical, I practice and drill endless high kicks, and they are very effective if you know what you are doing. A great example is the "head-high-thai".
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the thai kick yet. If I was to use one kick in a "real fight", it would be the thai kick. Over and over. And over. It's powerful, can be applied to any area of the body, and it's engraved in a Thai Fighter's mind by pure muscle memory.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/23/05 12:41 PM
Now I disagree with going into a street fight planning, thinking or waiting on a head or chest high thai-kick that will end the conflict. Let the Oppurnuity present its self
take whats offered don't force anything unless you set it up.
There are no techniques that are so superior that they erase risk. The risk that he can move in to jam or move out of range of any high technique if not setup by you or his tunnel vision puts the high kicker at risk. You may slip on the grass or slippery tile. And if you miss and turn your back you are subject to tackle or strike behind the head.
The Crocodile kick is a powerful kick, but its has all the risk if not more as any high kick to the head. If setup properly it would KO the attacker as would almost any decent kick with shoes on, were in the street now. To the knee or thigh would be safer, now once he grabs his knee THEN!!! But nobody better be watching this conflict.
Posted by: BulldogTKD
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/24/05 02:09 AM
I agree Neko456! One thing that just gets me is that people here are still debating this topic. If you are a Martial Artist then you should already know that you use what works for the situation! High kick, low kick! I’ve said this before in a similar post. This question is mute! Use what works! Hey how about NO KICKS! How about open palm or closed fist, which is better? USE WHAT WORKS!
Posted by: PPST
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/24/05 03:21 AM
Quote:
The Crocodile kick is a powerful kick, but its has all the risk if not more as any high kick to the head. If setup properly it would KO the attacker as would almost any decent kick with shoes on, were in the street now.
What is a Crocodile kick? Can you explain more about this technique?
Thanks,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/24/05 10:00 AM
Quote:
One thing that just gets me is that people here are still debating this topic
So why are you replying?
Quote:
This question is mute
I think you mean moot.
Quote:
Use what works! Hey how about NO KICKS! How about open palm or closed fist, which is better? USE WHAT WORKS!
Its a hypothetical question, again if you dont want to answer it then dont!
We are discussing what works in our opinion, Some think low is a quick fight ender, and some think that is to risky and you should go for the low.
Its a forum for discussion, you dont want to discuss then dont!
Posted by: BulldogTKD
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/24/05 12:45 PM
Great reply MAGr and you are correct it is moot. Sorry I was typing fast and my fingers did the talking. My apologies if you want to think in only one dimension. I post so may be others may read and realize that they should go with the flow in a self defense situation rather then think that only a few options will work and if ever a situation arises and they will have to defend them self or others they may be more prepared. Don’t be so narrow minded when it come to defending your self or your loved ones.
Oh and hypothetically if I need to defend my self or loved ones I will use what works! Oops I have.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 06/24/05 06:44 PM
I'm all for discussing,but this will not be a flame war or it will be locked.
Posted by: MAGr
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/24/05 10:15 PM
I agree its a big mistake to go into a fight with a preconception of what to use. It depends on the circumsance and most importantly it depends on the opponent.
If you ask me though what i think the most effective kick for the streets would be the one with the maximum damage minimum risk. Different people have different opinions on the ratio of risk vs. damage. What is your opinion?
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/25/05 11:30 PM
The kick that has worked for me the most is the roundhouse.
Its the jab of the kicking world. It can land anywhere and has god speed and power as well. Also, what is a front snap kick but a vertical roundhouse?
Posted by: BulldogTKD
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 06/26/05 03:02 PM
My opinion, as far as kicking in self defense, is that lower kicks are by far less risky then high kicks, and punching, striking or throwing has even less risk. But I still would use what ever kick, strike or counter appropriate for the situation.
One day a long time ago two brothers started to hassle me for no real reason. One of the brothers was talking smack and he was taunting me and trying to get me to fight, the other brother was feeding off this and they both ended up feeding off of each other. They wouldn’t let me walk away and I had a wall behind me. I told them to stop and let me leave. They didn’t touch me but they didn’t let me move as they would move to block my path. As I was talking to distract them, I did a turning side kick to the one on my left and that left me in a position to do a side kick to the other brother that was on my right. Both kicks were to the gut and I folded them both. I didn’t kick either one of them hard enough to really hurt them but hard enough to double them over and make them think. What options did I have? The situation was escalating and it was two against little old me and they were big boys! I need to end it fast and leave. A groin kick would be to painful and difficult to get them both, punching would take too much time and I didn’t want to wrestle.
One day a long time ago someone was causing problems with my family and I confronted him about this and he pushed me. I told the young fellow not to touch me again, well he went to push me again I blocked his push and helped redirect his head so it was in just the right place and I kicked him in the head with a back leg roundhouse kick. He went to the ground and got up a few seconds later and came at me again I stood there waiting for him to get close and I blocked his flailing punches and through him on his head. This time it too a few minutes before he woke up.
One day a long time ago a young fellow grabbed the front of my shirt and was getting ready to punch me. I grabbed his flinching hand and used a joint lock to take him down.
I didn’t mean to ramble on with personal experiences but I was trying to make a point. I could have done many things to protect my self and loved ones but I did what worked for the situation. I didn’t think. I didn’t already have a preconceived plan, I just did what needed to be done for the situation. I could go on with more examples but this is not the MA stories thread.
Posted by: Neko456
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/06/05 04:37 PM
What did we agree on was it a low front kick or roundkick? And what is the most used kick in classic forms/Kata funny how its the same kick. Those old jokers knew somthing didn't they. It may not win you Kata trophies like one leg hopping kicking hopping in a circle head high or low nad high round kick, but it will save your bacon.
And I must say BulldogTKD guy you seem to be an outstanding kicker, but true to your form you fight like you train. If its open and a suprise knock them out with it. High or Low.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/08/05 05:05 PM
Chen, I completely agree, the front kick is really just a vertical roundhouse kick.
Posted by: Welsh Dragon
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/08/05 05:21 PM
There are lots of variations of 'nasty' little low kicks, but id always use the hands to draw attention away from your intention. Its all about circumstance again, there may be oppitunities to use a low turning shin kick to the thigh or knee joint, or the use of a low 'stamping' sidekick may suffice, even a fast rising front kick to the groin. The one I like is a little step through stamping or checking kick to the side of the knee using the heel or sole. If this technique is set up correctly it is devastating. I am well versed in the kicking aspect but knees and elbows will always be my favorite! cheers
Posted by: JoelM
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/08/05 11:35 PM
Actually it is not. A front kick goes out and comes back in. If you execute it like a vertical roundhouse then you are doing a rising kick, only effective to the groin.
At least that's how we do our front snap kicks. Out and in, not up and down.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/09/05 02:42 AM
No, not a rising kick. Its a snap kick. There are variations to the roundhouse. Ever watch the Bruce Lee Movie where he is fighting Bob Wall? He fakes low and lands a snap roundhouse to the side of his head? Thats was what I was refferring to when speaking on turning the kick vertical. The other variation of the roundhouse is the arcing type that you were reffering to such as found in Muay Thai. Not good for vertical but devestating in its own right.
Posted by: Bushi_no_ki
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/09/05 05:29 AM
The basic idea is a low snapping kick, with the ball of the foot, or the instep, depending upon the target.
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/10/05 12:21 AM
Exactly
Posted by: dadoody5
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/10/05 09:25 PM
Whichever kick you can do that works is the best.
Posted by: Intrepidinv1
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 07/14/05 12:38 PM
I can tell you guys are well trained professionals and I have similar creds. One point of interest on this groin topic, a city in NC payed out a large settlement after one of their officers kneed a guy in the groin and busted one of his testicles. So we're a little gun shy about it around here but "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by six."
Posted by: awais786
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 07/15/05 10:27 PM
Well i have been into some fights but never used a kick, my oppents were usally "gangst" wannabe so they got their a$$ kicked easily, but for me 2-3 jabs to the jaws do the job
But if i was to kick in a fight, i would probably do a low side kick to the side of the knees, that would/should break/dislocate the bones and when he is disabled,
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
you get the idea
Posted by: funstick5000
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 07/16/05 12:51 PM
i don't think i kick higher than the knee is really viable, if you're opponent has the sense to actually grab you leg then his mates are gonna kick you're head in while your on the ground.the only unside to kicks is that most untrained fighters won't use legs, at least in my experience anyway. the only place head kicks should be used is in the dojo unless your good enough to do them.
Posted by: devinw
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/16/05 01:25 PM
I have found short, fast low line leg kicks to be the best. Example are classic Muay Thai kick roundhouse or "teep" to the legs and knees is fast, forceful and extremely effective.
Humbly,
Devin
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 07/16/05 01:55 PM
Footstick,A low kick, or a low snapkick is almost impossibe to block b/c #1 the a low snap kick is too low to block,& as soon as you are kicking with a 90 degree extension,You immidiately recoil making it harder for your adversary/punk to grab the low snap kick.
I Guess to put it another way,You can't block what you can't see.
Posted by: MonkeyLegs
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 07/29/05 03:00 PM
I havent read all the responces so I might be repeating what others have said but....
Kicks that target knees and shins.
If nessessary kicks to the face of a downed opponent.
Peronally I like low kicks
~MonkeyLegs
Posted by: dadoody5
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 08/01/05 02:19 AM
MY experience in security, has been that shin kicks to the knees or inner/outter thigh are good. Using your leg for leverage in tripping is also very good.
Posted by: Sidekick
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 08/18/05 11:46 PM
Like my name says, Sidekick. Thats my signature move. It uses my momentum and bodyweight to my advantage. I can hit the solar plexes, abs, legs, shins, knees, possibally neck with this kick, position and angle is key though.
Posted by: shihan_chris
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 08/19/05 12:16 AM
it depends upon the situation. although i agree that for most people it is the front kick.
Personaly, i just love a backfist, reverse punch, front kick, round kick combo. Thats very basic, but its also very effective. If you can get your opponent going backwards real fast, then he will most likely be off balance. (not many people can fight backwards.)
Posted by: Passage
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 08/19/05 12:45 AM
A fast front kick to the gut has worked for me. Most people dont expect you to do a kick at all. If you hit them well it should knock them down, or make them drop their defense so you can move in with punches.
Posted by: Shouji
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 09/01/05 06:57 PM
In the times that I have been in a unneccesary fight, I quickly ended it with a heel stomp to the knee.
However, I have also made good use of another kick, that I self-taught myself (although I know that I am not the original creator of this technique). Basically, it starts with a low roundhouse to the leg. Depending on your opponent, see what he telegraphs. Will he raise his hands down to try to block, then quickly perform a jab or raise the same leg to do a roundhouse.
Posted by: tookien1
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 09/05/05 12:35 PM
I think simply if your fast enough, do a high kick, at the right time and distance. If your not that fast, don't do it because you'll get caught
Posted by: otobeawanker
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 10/06/05 07:01 AM
I'm gonna have to say, hands down.
It's gonna be the simpliest kick to learn, the kick thats the most devistating, and the kick that has the largest striking surface.
That kick would be the "Thai kick".
Posted by: Mike_L
Re: What is the most effective kick for the streets? - 10/08/05 11:16 PM
A well placed round house kick to the solar plexus after a flurry of punches will knock even a 300 pounders wind out. Then you can finish the fight. PS A knee strike to the face,nuts, or to the stomach is also very effective. Almost no one expects a kick.
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/09/05 12:08 AM
Depends on situation.
From a grab? Kick to the solarplexus/gut. From a side headlock? Kick to the leg / knee (I've done this before and it works, in REAL LIFEtm).
From a rear bear hug a headbutt to their chest or head if you're tall, followed by a forward breakfall/roll with a rear kick built in.
If you're just squaring off with someone, I would NEVER suggest a high kick unless you are VERY fast. While almost no one you will ever face is trained in how to intercept kicks, a good percentage of them will be able to block or catch one without much trouble. You need to be fast and on target, and favorable lighting conditions would help too.
Posted by: Subedei
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/31/05 06:01 AM
If you are well trained? Sidekick at any level. Assuming you are executing it correctly it will penetrate any limb he places in the way and at least knock your opponent off balance and several paces backwards. If it makes solid contact with his torso or head the fight is over.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/31/05 02:37 PM
When this thread hits 100 I'm locking it.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/31/05 02:38 PM
I think you should too. This thread is old and virtually kick and arguement has been covered.
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/31/05 02:40 PM
You forgot to put "every" between virtually and kick in your last reply.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/31/05 02:41 PM
Posted by: SANCHIN31
Re: What is the most effective kick for the stree - 10/31/05 02:41 PM
What's the count at now?
