Zhan Zhaung/Standing the stake

Zhan Zhaung is the foundation to the internal arts. The internal arts are practiced by completely relaxed musles and stillness while external arts are practiced with movement and muscle motion. so if you want to study internal arts first learn to STAND THE STAKE!!!!!!!!!

Hi Sa Bum Nim
Would you care to describe how you practice this?

standing the stake,is just standing still relaxing and focusing on your self for a (long time)

If it were only that simple..... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Standing the stake is a standing mediation. Not just standing still focusing on yourself. Actually never focus on yourself.

There are postures to standing the stake. here is the first posture. Stand with you feet shoulder width apart. feet facing fwd or slightly inward. Bend your knees slightly. With arms hanging down relaxed and normal. Bend your elbows to about a 70 degree angle so your hands are waist height. keep your elbows in. Your back should be straight do not lean fwd or backward. close your eyes and clear your mind of all thoughts. Beginners at this will find it hard to have no thoughts and should picture a tree or the ocean flowing in their mind. remember totally relaxed. Do this for 10 minutes followed by 1 and 1/2 times your standing time or 15 minutes of sitting meditation. when you reach higher levels of standing the body may shake this is normal. Do not try to make the body shake but if it starts just remain relaxed what is happening is your meridian pathways are opening up. The sitting meditation should be done on a chair with hands in your lap and your back straight. do 10 minutes of standing for one 7 days then add 5 minutes to your standing time. Each week add 5 minutes to your standing time don't forget the sitting meditation must be done for 1 and 1/2 times your standing time. when you have reached 1 hour standing time and 1 and 1/2 hour sitting time do this for 5 years. then you will be ready to start projecting your chi.

Or you can work up to 3 hrs. of standing time and 4 1/2 hours sitting time which most westerners do not have the time or ambition to do Then after 3 year of the 3 hr standing time you can start working on projecting your chi.

So for anyone serious about building chi this is how it is done. this is what is done for Lin Kong Jin training or Empty force.

Important warning DO NOT! Try to project your chi before you have reached the 1 hr standing and 1 and 1/2 hrs sitting and have don this for one year or you will have to begin again.

After 3 months of standing I was up to over the hr of standing each day which I did for another month then. I did an experiment even though I knew if I did I would lose all the progress I gained.but I wanted to see if it was real and IT IS!!!! I was able to suffocate a candle flame with my chi from over 4 foot away by simply pointing at it and concentrating. I tried another experiment right away and actually moved a golf ball across a glass topped table without touching it with my chi from about a foot away. I then went back to the candle and As I kept experimenting the distance became shorter as I was using the chi I had been storing. I know I will get the skeptics asking for video and proof. You want proof? I have video of masters doing it. I am two years into it and will not waste my training until I have reached my goal.

Sa Bum Nim,

[QUOTE]Actually never focus on yourself.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by by this?
Where did you learn zhan zhaung?
I checked out the site that you had listed as your home page and the links within and there is no mention of standing or any internal practice for that matter. To me it looks like it is a Taekwando school, which last time I checked is an external art.

I was doing ok with what you were saying, but your last paragraph threw your credibility right out the window.

You say that you have video of masters doing it, are these masters of your lineage? Can you please post the proof?

I've never known Zhaung Dong to be practiced that way or for those results.

Either you're a troll, a dreamer or you've been badly misinformed. As for 'projecting your chi' try reading the other threads on this forum, we don't need proof as we know you and your 'masters' haven't done it.

It's a shame because this could've been a good thread.

Bossman,
I guess we could try and salvage the thread.

What type of Zhan Zhuang do you do within your training?

What system or stlye does the training you do come from?

For myself...

I do a version of the pole/stake standing exercises where you are 'holding a ball' in front of the body .

My primary standing exercises are the single palm change of bagua and pi quan (splitting fist) of xingyi.
When doing these as standing practice each posture is held for a certain amount of time to allow the body to relax into the structure. Obviously emphasis is placed on relxing the mind and body and harmonizing the structure. This is then carried while making the transition to the next posture.

Anyone else?

Nuff talking, time to train.

Chris

Zhang zhuang is practiced in lin kong jin or empty force. Here`s a link: www.emptyforce.com

As for me, I practice standing, but not for long periods of time. I usually do it for about 15 minutes. I use just normal standing, holding the ball or sometimes I stand in positions from my katas.

I mostly learned about standing from books by Mantak Chia, B.K. Frantzis and I`m begining to read The way of energy by Lam Kam Chuen. I try to add these teachings to katas.

Hi Chris

My training comes from the HK Yang family but the words I use here and therefore any mistakes will be mine.

First you have to find the direction to face from inside.

The balance is different in that you locate but don't activate the power in the feet.

You make all the postural aligments and connect the major meridians (we've talked endlessly about this so I won't break it down)

Whereas you normally 'look a mile away' - you can close your eyes if you feel comfortable. your arms hang down but you have to correct the angles to get free passage of chi. You soften the biceps and it can take up to 20 mins for the hands to rise of their own accord so there is no stress in holding them.

Bring the chi to the skin (it feels like if someone touches you they will get an elctric shock).

Perceive 3 dimensionally in sound and what I can only describe as 6th sense, but to be aware of everything around you and it's depth.

Without getting too heavy and using the most understandable language - that's as far as I can go. Each layer of training I've had changes it slightly again.

Actually, the method that Sa Bum Nim posted (and here I am speaking of the standing posture, the seated meditation and the time ratio between the two) is what was taught to me as a part of my studies in Lin Kong Jing. The primary difference between Lin Kong Jing and the more traditional Zhan Zhuang training (and my Zhan Zhuang training comes from the Yu Yong Nian lineage) is the seated meditation and the the order in which the postures are taught.

Sa Bum Nim...I am curious to know...who taught you Lin Kong Jing? Was your training self-taught or did you have a shifu teach you? I was a student of Richard Mooney and trained through the 2nd level of his instructor certification. Since there are not too many folks out there that teach the art, I may know your instructor.

As to the other things you mention...well...that is a different topic in and of itself.

maybe focusing on your self was the rong word but im sure you know what i mean [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

I studied shoa-lin, baqua,and xing-i kung fu for years under Bai-xing chuan Grand Master Sifu Phillip "Pete" Star founder of Yi Li Chuan.

I have spoken with Sifu Mooney a couple of times asking him questions and aquired a copy of his program and video.
I agree with most all of his training methods. which are really no different than what my sijo teaches. I study under Sijo Todd Miskimen who teaches by invite only. He is a master of the martial style of Yang Tai-chi as well as has been into lin kong jin for over 20 years. The only way we can figure my strong presence of chi in such a short time of standing is that all my years of training under the guidence of Sifu Star who taught me my basis in the internal arts.

meijin as you know from your studies with sifu Mooney Standing Is actually the primary part of internal chi gung. As for the TKD having been involved in the martial arts for 20 plus years TKD was a piece of cake and since my son wanted to study the arts and since one should not start the standing meditation at my sons age I felt he could learn a common external style. I do however teach him the application of the techniques that other TKD instructors don't even have a clue about. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

As far as bossman's inquiry What is still so perplexing to me is that I am comming to the understanding it is not about charging the battery but more like becoming a lightning rod. Being able to feel more frequencies of the energy like tuning into radio waves and numourous radio stations. I hope you can understand what I am saying. I always stand in the same clothes as your clothes become saturated with chi also and in the same room.
actually about a year ago I started to have outer body experiances while standing when this occurs I never leave the room that I am standing in I just mostly look around and freek on looking at my self from the outside [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]




[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-12-2005).]

Sa Bum Nim:

By "shoa-lin" I assume you mean Shaolin Quan?

By "xing-i" I assume you mean Xingyiquan?

I have never heard of Bai Xing Chuan (and based on my limited knowledge of Chinese, I think it would be more correct to say Bai Xing Quan) or of Yi Li Chuan (again, more probably correct to say Li Yi Quan). Did "Grandmaster Sifu Pete" invent both of these arts?

As to your instructor...Sijo Todd Miskimen...who was his shifu in Lin Kong Jing? Also curious, you refer to him as Sijo
(Shizu). For the Chinese, that typically indicates the founder of a system. What system did he found?

You said:
"meijin as you know from your studies with sifu Mooney Standing Is actually the primary part of internal chi gung"

Actually, no...I don't know that. While I have found standing stake exercises to be quite effective for me, I would never go so far as to say that it, in and of itself, is "the" primary part of internal qigong. There are numerous valid and effective qigong systems out there and I would never presume to tell them that they have missed the primary part of qigong.

As a student and teacher of various arts, I have personally found that there are alot of variables to take into consideration. What are the principle interests of the student? What is their temperment? What is their prior training? What is their ultimate goal in training? Do they have any health issues? All of this and alot more is going to need to be taken into consideration. I try not to get into a "cookie cutter" approach. But, that is my opinion, based on my experience.

You said:
"As far as bossman's inquiry What is still so perplexing to me is that I am comming to the understanding it is not about charging the battery but more like becoming a lightning rod. Being able to feel more frequencies of the energy like tuning into radio waves and numourous radio stations. I hope you can understand what I am saying."

Ummmm...no....actually I don't understand what you are saying here.

You said:
"I always stand in the same clothes as your clothes become saturated with chi also and in the same room."

Hmmmm...qi saturated clothes? That one is a new one on me. Saturating inanimate objects with qi? Not so sure I would agree with that one.

You said:
"actually about a year ago I started to have outer body experiances while standing when this occurs I never leave the room that I am standing in I just mostly look around and freek on looking at my self from the outside"

I am not even going to go there.

I never said you had to agree or believe me. Call Your sifu and ask him. Even his video states that to learn real kung fu the main focus is standing. you may want to review his video. Is it Kung Fu, Gung Fu, Wushu chuan Fa? Ki, chi , qi You are trying to **** me into symantics and i will not ablidge you in that. When one says chi what type of chi are they talking about?

Just because you never heard of a style doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am not here to fight with you. I have also studied various styles and will continue. You don't have to agree with me. Some say only 60 to 70% of people are effected by chi? I say without chi one would be dead so everyone is effected by it. Could it be that everyone is on a slightly different frequency reguarding internal energy and being able to tune into various fequencies would make it even more effective on everyone. Like I said you don't have to agree with meaybe you just don't want to understand what I am saying. Which is fine. But please do me a favor and Ask Sifu Mooney if the first thing taught to a new student in ancient times was a Technique or Standing meditation. I agree different goals require different paths. But please do me a favor and ask Sifu Mooney if the first step to learning internal arts is to learn to stand to as he calls it build chi as I have come to know it tune into chi and to alearn to allow it to flow through you.

Another question in for those of you that do Zhan Zhuang. Do you do qigong or some other type of 'cool down' exercise when you are done standing?

Bossman,
[QUOTE]First you have to find the direction to face from inside.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure that I understand what you are talking about here. Can you please explain in a little more detail?

[QUOTE]The balance is different in that you locate but don't activate the power in the feet.[/QUOTE]
I think I can understand where you are comming from with this; correct me if I'm wrong.
Locating the power in the feet would be to find your ground path for your strcture through them. However, you don't activate the power by sending it some where as if you were doing a roll back or push. The power remains full yet empty at the same time?

What you ststed about connecting the meridians is pretty much what I meant by harmonizing the structure.

meijin,
A couple of questions regarding lin kong jin.
Is this the stuff that George Dillman teaches?
Who is Yu Yong Nian?

Sa Bum Nim,
[QUOTE]When one says chi what type of chi are they talking about?[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about?

[QUOTE]Just because you never heard of a style doesn't mean it doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
True. However, this is the perfect set up for people to propagate false lineage and bogus claims of extraordinary feats.
If a teacher has extraordinary claims ask him to proove it - and not on one of his students - on you.

[QUOTE]Some say only 60 to 70% of people are effected by chi?[/QUOTE]
Who says that?

Sa Bum Nim - my BIG question to you is; why do YOU think standing is the foundation of IMA's?
and some others...
Do you think that standing is all one needs to be good at IMA's?
Are you talking within the context of martial usage of qi?

Sa Bum Nim:

Let's get something straight...I am not trying to imply anything at all in regards to spelling or wording. What I am trying to do is NOT make an assumption as to what you are talking about. If "xing-i" indeed means Xingyiquan, then I can make limited assumptions based one what you should know and what you should have been exposed to. I'll use my friend Fisherman as an example. we have discussed several points concerning Xingyiquan. But, since we are doing it in writing, I have asked him what "flavor" of Xingyiquan it is and I also ask about his instructor. In doing this, I can get an idea about how to word things or the types of things he would be exposed to. And remember...different things can look alike...there is Xingyiquan and Xinyiquan. Looks alike when written, but two different arts. It is important to know what you are talking about. Were I trying to discredit you, I would have been much more specific.

Next, Rich Mooney is no longer my Shifu and has not been. Even if he were, I would not have to run back to him for an answer on every little thing. And it does not mean that I cannot disagree with him.

If zhan zhuang is, as you say, the primary component of internal martial arts (neijia), then step through this logically with me...ok?

#1. Yiquan was developed by Shizu Wang Xiang Zhai.

#2. Yiquan was the first martial art to have zhan zhuang as it's major core component.

#3. Historical documentation shows that Shizu Wang Xiang Zhai did not develop Yiquan until the early 1920's.

#4. If the above is true, are we then saying that the primary part of the internal martial arts (neijia) was missing until the 1920's?

Also...consider the following:

#1. Chen Shi Taijiquan does not do zhan zhuang in any major way...are they missing the primary component of the neijia?

#2. Most versions of Xingyiquan only do Santi as their zhan zhuang. Are they missing the primary component of the neijia?

#3. While not at all an expert of Baguazhang, I do not know of any version that does zhan zhuang in a major way. Are they also missing the primary component of the neijia?

I look forward to your answers.

Chris:

You said:
"Another question in for those of you that do Zhan Zhuang. Do you do qigong or some other type of 'cool down' exercise when you are done standing?"

Techincally speaking, zhan zhuang is qigong, so there is no other type of qigong to do. But, there is a series of exercises that are done as a closing or "cool down" as you say. But, it is really more for "sealing" as opposed to "cool down".

You said:
"Is this the stuff that George Dillman teaches?"

No, not at all. To my knowledge, there are no DKI people that are trained in Lin Kong Jing...at least beyond a very rudimentary level. Shifu Rich Mooney (when I last trained with him) only had a handful of instructors at different levels (there are 3 levels) with 3 or 4 being in the US and a couple of others in Europe. His Shifu does not speak English and trained very few Westerners...mostly just Chinese.

You said:
"Who is Yu Yong Nian?"

Dr. Yu Yong Nian is probably the last or one of the last living students of Shizu Wang Xiang Zhai...the founder of Yiquan. His next in line as lineage holder is Shifu Lam Kam Chuen who is now based in the UK. Check Amazon for Lam Kam Chuen's books...I highly recommend them...at least if you have an interest in zhan zhuang and/or Yiquan. And his small circle form is an excellent short form for Taijiquan.

HTH!

[QUOTE]from Fisherman
I'm not so sure that I understand what you are talking about here. Can you please explain in a little more detail?[/QUOTE]

It's an inner thing - once you quieten down inside, facing in a particular direction will just 'feel right'and it can be different each time you do it. There is complex talk about 'pools' of different types of chi around you and you have to find the one you need to nourish at that time - but I prefer simply face the direction that feels right to you at that time.

[QUOTE]
I think I can understand where you are comming from with this; correct me if I'm wrong.
Locating the power in the feet would be to find your ground path for your strcture through them. However, you don't activate the power by sending it some where as if you were doing a roll back or push. The power remains full yet empty at the same time? [/QUOTE]

Erm.... possibly... in locating the points in the feet, if you stand into them and utilise mental intention they pulse and fill the arches with what feels like cushions of chi. If you locate them but stand on the top of the arch, there's no pulsing.

Hope that helps.. It's like we speak different languages and we have to decipher the meanings!

meijin and Bossman,

You guys and some others here are the reason I tend to wander back to this forum. I truly enjoy some of the conversations that we get to have.
I also want to thank you for being straight forward when you answer my questions.

meijin,
I guess the reason that I posed the question about standing after a cool down goes back to the cool down thread I started a while back.
The main reason I woud do a cool down after a hardcore standing session is so that I do not walk away from the session with 'head fire'. This is something that my teachers and theirs as weel have put great emphasis on.
My two primary standing practices are santi for Xingyi and the Bagua version of santi where you are basically like in Xingyi with the exception that the upper body is turned towards the inside. In particular with the Bagua santi, I find it necessary to do something afterward that alows me to cool down. My teachers said that it is due to the coiling of the body while standing that causes the heat to build up.
I agree with you that standing is a wonderful training tool, however, it is not a foundational practice to all IMA's.

I had a rather interesting conversation with one of my teachers today about li kong jin.
I feel that it is somehow manipulating force so that the energetic frequency of another human being to cause an effect on that person. Kind of imposing your intent to a point where you alter their vibrational frequency and possibly cause instability?
I have no experience with this type of teaching, so it was just my opinion.
What is your take on it?
Is li kong jin applicable on its own as a 'system' or is it a set of principles to apply to an art that you already know? (ie Xingyi)

Bossman posted:
[QUOTE]Hope that helps.. It's like we speak different languages and we have to decipher the meanings![/QUOTE]
It does help, thank you. I agree that sometimes it's difficult to communicate things here. It makes things a lot easier if you can explain these ideas and whatnot if you can make gestures and physically show someone how it works.
(I guess thats why I have a hard time with the folks that think they can learn exclusively from reading)

Thanks again...
Chris

[QUOTE]
After 3 months of standing I was up to over the hr of standing each day which I did for another month then. I did an experiment even though I knew if I did I would lose all the progress I gained.but I wanted to see if it was real and IT IS!!!! I was able to suffocate a candle flame with my chi from over 4 foot away by simply pointing at it and concentrating.[/QUOTE]

First off why would what is in bold cause you to lose everything you had been training? That is just absurd. Not to mention suffocating a candle flame with your chi is also absurd imo. You can suffocate a candle with a perfectly executed strike, but not chi. Please by all means...the next time you wish to test yourself get a digicam that can record some video that would be great. I would really like to see this chi suffocation.

Also, wow. After only 3 months your standing for 1 hour every day? It has been 3 months for me and I can only stand for about 8 minutes every other day. I find myself burning out on standing posture if I do it any more than this. I originally could stand for no longer than 1-2 minutes when I began.

I think your a prime candidate for internal burnout if you are standing for an hour a day everyday. If you do have a background in meditation already, though, I can see this being possible. It's going to literally take me years to get to the point where I can stand for an hour.


[This message has been edited by hardluck (edited 03-14-2005).]

Hardluck If you could only stand for 1-2 minutes when you started and after 3 months have worked up to 8 min. every other day. You must be doing somthing wrong or you may not be as dedicated as others. Just my opinion.

You don't have to believe The outcome of my experiments. I really don't care. The internal art I am training in is called Lin Kong Jing and Standing is it's main focus. I also do Yang Style Tai Chi Daily as well do at least one shoalin, xingi and baqua set a day. I then teach TKD 2 hrs. a day 5 days a week.

Lin Kong Jin is nonsense. Also 40 minutes a day for standing is sufficient.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Hardluck If you could only stand for 1-2 minutes when you started and after 3 months have worked up to 8 min. every other day. You must be doing somthing wrong or you may not be as dedicated as others. Just my opinion.

You don't have to believe The outcome of my experiments. I really don't care. The internal art I am training in is called Lin Kong Jing and Standing is it's main focus. I also do Yang Style Tai Chi Daily as well do at least one shoalin, xingi and baqua set a day. I then teach TKD 2 hrs. a day 5 days a week.

[/QUOTE]


Well you still haven't stated why performing such an excersize/expirament would be worth "losing everything you have worked for."

You state the fact that you suffocated a flame as fact. You should be able to backup fact with proof.

Sa bum nim, this method of meditation and chi development is the first excercise I have ever learned, over 3 years ago. The only thing is I haven't really done it consistently like that or for long periods of time. But what I have been taught is to concentrate on your Chi flowing from your Dan Tieng out through your hands and gathering in between the two palms. Basically imaging a ball of water, spinning clockwise. It feels great cause after some time you can really "feel" the chi and your hands tingling. I will try your method of standing and sitting for longer periods of time.

Have you ever heard or tried of moving people with your chi without touching them?

[This message has been edited by p4rtyb0y69 (edited 03-14-2005).]

BaguaZhang:

I would have to disagree with you. Lin Kong Jing Qigong is not nonsense. Some of the people that talk about it may be, but I personally found the exercises to be quite beneficial...at least for me personally. Have you ever studied it or from what are you making your observations from?

As to the amount of time...40 minutes is a bit short. I know Xingyiquan people that do Santi alone for longer than that. In the method I was trained, there were three postures per set and working one set you needed to be able to do each posture for about an hour to get maximum benefit.

To each their own...but I found it to be a very useful exercise.

Fisherman:

You said:
"I guess the reason that I posed the question about standing after a cool down goes back to the cool down thread I started a while back.
The main reason I woud do a cool down after a hardcore standing session is so that I do not walk away from the session with 'head fire'. This is something that my teachers and theirs as weel have put great emphasis on."

Depending on how they teach, they need to be worried about that. If you begin to do a particular qigong set without having opened at least the microcosmic orbit, then that can well be an issue that you have to deal with. That is one of the main reasons that the first thing I teach is getting the orbits open and running smoothly. It takes a bit longer to "front load", but the progress made in the other exercises more than makes up for it.

You said:
"I had a rather interesting conversation with one of my teachers today about li kong jin.
I feel that it is somehow manipulating force so that the energetic frequency of another human being to cause an effect on that person. Kind of imposing your intent to a point where you alter their vibrational frequency and possibly cause instability?
I have no experience with this type of teaching, so it was just my opinion"

Actually, you are pretty much on it with that. The moving people without touching them is the most often misunderstood portion of the exercises...and most often abused.

Just as a Reiki master may have a student put their hands on them (the master), the same is true about moving someone. I am not talking about ki balls or anything of the sort...so no DBZ stuff here!!! The concept is very much the same as with the Reiki instructor. This is not the be all end all and is NOT the goal of Lin Kong Jing. Trust me...my old Shifu (Rich Mooney) progressed to some very advanced levels and the moving of people is not the goal. The expression of power (jin) is the goal. But the manipulation of another is basically the way that you describe it.

You said:
"Is li kong jin applicable on its own as a 'system' or is it a set of principles to apply to an art that you already know? (ie Xingyi)"

It depends on how much one wants to devote to it. As a health system, it is quite powerful. To progress into the martial side, you really have to devote ALOT of time to it as the seated meditation is even more time than the standing. If you already do an internal art, it is a great addition to it. As for a martial arts system in and of itself, no...it does not qualify as one. For that I highly recommend Yiquan. The postures and sets of postures are almost identical (they have the same roots after all) and it adds more martial exercises as well.

HTH!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BaguaZhang:
Lin Kong Jin is nonsense. Also 40 minutes a day for standing is sufficient.[/QUOTE]

I also highly disagree with Baguazhang.

As for the experiments i did after the short time of standing were just that and experiment to see what would happen The only way i can figure it is that my other training had built my chi more than i thought, then standing like i was before the experiments just built/tuned my chi more is the only way i can figure it. It is my understanding that LKJ is to compliment the external sytle as any style that requires movement is through the use of muscles and qualifys as external. Remember Yin & Yang people. One without the other? is that possible?

I have learned in 20 plus years of traiing is that my style is just that my style, and is a derivitive of all the training i have done. Shoalin, baqua, xingi, yang tai chi, shotokan, and TKD are what i have focused on. Taking what has worked best for me from each style and incorperating it together.

LKJ is an excellent way to build chi/ tune into it and has given me some amazing results.

As far as application of LKJ it is surely not to put out a candle from across the room or move a golf ball. However, doing so freeked out my wife and son who are both BB in TKD.

No problem, don't believe me. I am not here to make you a believer in LKJ or make anyone a believer in me or my abitity's. I figured as much, that if i posted the results to my experiments that the nay sayers would appear to take a shot. But let me say to all the nay sayers, seek out a master of LKJ and Witness it first hand I'll Bet you change your mind
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-14-2005).]

Sa Bum Nim:

I could not disagree with you more when you say that LKJ is to compliment the external. One of the primary purposes of LKJ is to fatigue the primary working muscles to the point where the secondary resting muscles have to take over. The longer this is done, the easier it makes it so that a person can can use this muscles group and there by reduce the amount of li (physical strength) is required to deliver a technique. I made a long post about this and you can go look it up. The problem with arts like Shotokan and Tang So Do (both arts that I have a black belt ranking in my past studies) is that their stances and methods of moving do not lend themselves to the internal. Again, as I indicated in an earlier post, the primary goal of LKJ training is the proper and more powerful expression of jin...or internal power. And an external art is just not going to get you there.

As to the reason why people are looking at your posts a little funny when it comes to your claims. Consider the following and maybe you will understand why it is that warning bells went off and red flags wnet up:

#1. You list a variety of different arts and you spelled the majority of the names wrong. Hey, I am a bad speller too...but generally the student of an art spells the name of the arts that they study correctly.

#2. You list two or three arts that no one has ever heard of. Not so much a problem...there are obscure arts in the various different traditions. But, you list what is seeminly American style names as the founders. Again, not necessarily a problem. But, the number of Western individuals that have actually created viable combative arts or inherited a legit system can be counted on your 10 fingers and have most of them left over.

#3. In listing the names of the Chinese arts that no one has ever heard of, you seem to mix different styles of transliterating the names to English. Again, not necessarily a problem...but it does set off warning bells.

#4. When asked about all of this, you get angry about it, shift the direction of the conversation and then never address the questions at all.

Any of these points alone mean nothing. Yet, when all combined together, it makes folks instantly see you as a DBZ type of person. As for me, I'd still like to know who it was that taught your LKJ instructor LKJ. I'd like to know more about these arts you mention that I can find nothing about. I'd like to know what style your "Sijo" created or inherited. Most of all, I'd like to see some video of you doing what you claim you can do. As a matter of fact, if you'll get me the video I will create a web page for it and post it on my own server for everyone to check out. Until then, I certainly cannot take your claims seriously. You can take that personal if you like, but I assure you that it is not just me. I am just trying to tell you where alot of the thought process is on this with alot of us. Others can certainly speak on their own...but I would bet that their thoughts are close to my own.

Sa Bum Nim:

Here is the information I referenced in my last post. Perhaps it will be helpful, perhaps not. Sorry to everyone who has had to read this twice now, but I thought it was related enough to the topic at hand to re-post it.

===================

Jin (or jing as it is commonly written) is what is used to develop an "internal" punch (or any other technique for that matter). Qi is the fuel that produces jin.

Within the internal martial arts, there is a process that is taught. Li is the strictly muscular force that everyone uses. This is what is trained first. This is what the Chinese also refer to as Ming Jin or Obvious Power. It is called that because when you see someone performing their art, it is obvious to you that they are using strictly muscular force.

As you train the li, one of the things that you are taught are the Jin Dian (energy points) and Jin Lu (energy path). The Jin Lu would roughly be the equivalent of a structural line as developed by an engineer. The Jin Lu is the most effective pathway through the body for expressing kinetic energy. Along the Jin Lu are the Jin Dian or energy points. These are the critical points that must come into alignment in a particular way to develop the Jin Lu to effective express kinetic energy. Once a person as developed or has begun to develop this, they have what the Chinese refer to as Zheng Jin or whole body power. This simply means that instead of just using the localized arm and shoulder muscles to deliver a punch or a strike, they are now effectively using their whole body from the ground to the point of delivery through the Jin Lu to punch or strike. This is where the martial arts aim to take you...internal or external.

The next level of training is where what the Chinese refer to as Li Yu Qi He or Strength and Qi Combine comes into play. Through generalized and/or system specific qigong exercises, you learn how to increase qi in the body and to effectively transform that into jin and then to use the jin in a technique (strike, punch, kick, throw, etc.). At this point you begin to develop what is called An Jin or hidden power. It is called hidden because when viewed it appears to be this mysterious small action or movement that can launch someone several feet. When you read some of the writings of the older Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan masters, why do you think they said that they only needed to see someone perform one form or a part of it? Because the way that they express themself physically with such an activity easily tells you how skillful they are and alot about what they know. I can watch a Goju-ryu karate-ka perform any of their kata and in a moment or two know whether or not they are any good. Sometimes it is as simple as seeing the hand formations that they use. Sometimes it is just seeing how they move in transition in sanchin-dachi or performing a part of the Sanchin kata. For a Chen Shi Taijiquan and/or Bajiquan, I can tell from the stomp that they do. In Taijiquan or Yiquan, it is just a matter of watching them do push hands or participating in push hands with them.

So...to answer the original question...no, in general, you don't use qi in punches...you use jin. Now...if you want to talk about advanced levels of training such as Qi Yu Yi He (qi and intent combine) and Yi Yu Shen He (intent and spirit combine) it can be a different story...but that is a different thread altogether.

Sa Bum Nim, at the very least since you ignore my posts, could you please explain why exactly you "lost" months of training because you smothered a flame.

meijin, here is the history of

BAIXINGQUAN; YILI'S ANCESTOR FROM SHAO-LIN

Baixingquan (aka. Pai-Hsing Chuan) translates as "White Star Fist" and is the unusual form of northern Shao-lin boxing from which Yiliquan draws many of it's techniques and some of it's basic forms.

Baixing originally hails from the Shao-lin Monastery located in Honan Province and dates back to the end of the Ming Dynasty (1644). It's founder was, I believe, a monk surnamed Chou. He combined the "northern" styled techniques and movements with those of the southern school(s). This is why Baixingquan (which is classed as a northern system) contains elements and even a form (Sanbaoquan) of the southern art(s). While it can be surmised that Baixing's founder trained in the northern art taught at the Shao-lin Temple at the time, we cannot know what southern system he learned or who taught it to him. We can say that it certainly bears some of the earmarks of Wing Chun, but the development of Baixing pre-dates Wing Chun's development.

Baixing takes it's name from an unusual technique of punching which is also found, oddly enough, in the arsenal of Xingyiquan. Baixing's "White Star Fist" punch was learned by all Baixing seniors and was never taught to junior students.

Baixing includes a wide variety of bare-handed form which include Ferocious Tiger Descends the Mountain (the forerunner of Diyi Guan Nien), five "animal" forms based upon the movements of the Leopard, Tiger, Snake, Crane, and Dragon, Methods of the Five Masters (Teachers), Hidden Strength Great Victory, Light Step Iron Hand, Dragon and Tiger in Conference, Three Jewels (Sanbaoquan), Chase Eight Tigers, Heavenly Whirlwind Thunderbolt Fist, and many others which bring the total to 21 forms.
Unlike most kung-fu forms, Baixing's forms were divided into "sections" which were first performed on one side and then immediately repeated on the other. Most of it's forms demonstrate the techniques and strategies of a typical northern form of Shao-lin kung-fu. However, as mentioned earlier, Baixing includes one outstandingly southern form (Sanbaoquan) and the influence of the southern schools can be clearly seen in most of Baixing's other forms. Many of them seem to attempt to combine southern kung-fu principles with long-range techniques.
Baixing has never utilized any "two-man forms" at all.

Baixingquan also carries a full arsenal of weapons and forms for most of them. Of course, this included the basic four weapons; the staff, sword, spear, and broadsword. However, it also included other weapons such as the Guandao, tiger-fork, double broadswords, double daggers, three-section staff, stick, short stick, and the butterfly swords....a weapon normally found only in the southern schools of kung-fu!

Baixing is an aggressive system. That is, the emphasis is on powerful forward movements which are intended to drive deeply into the enemy's territory (very much like Xingyi's, and hence, Yili's fighting theory). It's typical fighting posture is forward-weighted and spring-loaded for quick, surging attacks. Unlike many of the "long fist" systems of northern kung-fu, Baixing loathes "flowery" movements and focuses on practical, direct techniques which are intended to penetrate an enemy's defense(s) very quickly. Unlike Yili which does not advocate attack, Baixing's primary tactic is attack, attack, and attack...kind of a Chinese version of "The best defense is a good offense" sort of thing.
This unusual style allows it's practicioners to begin from "long range" and then quickly close with the enemy while simultaneously applying "short range" in-fighting principles and techniques. Unlike most northern systems which utilize the corkscrew punch as being their primary method of thrusting, Baixing emphasizes the so-called "standing fist" which we know as the "sun fist."
Yili's very few jumping kicks are all derived from Baixing; the butterfly kick, the flying knee stroke, and the hurricane kick. Oddly, Baixing states that the butterfly kick should never be applied at long ranges and it teaches methods for it's application at medium range.


Baixing also includes a wide variety of throwing techniques and take-downs as well as numerous joint-twisting techniques, chokes, and holds. It is safe to say that more than half of Yili's throwing techniques and almost all of it's joint techniques and chokes are derived from this ancestor.

I cannot guess at the reason(s) for Baixing's lack of popularity. Perhaps it is the system's lack of flowery movements and emphasis on aggressive, bone-crushing attacks. While it is not as aesthetically pleasing as many northern arts, it is not as homely as some of the southern boxing schools. In any case, Baixing had no interest in how it looked; only in how it worked.

In 1982 I was fortunate in being able to visit China and take Baixing back home and demonstrate it to the Chinese people. They appeared to like it very much and were most impressed with it's practical and powerful fighting techniques (which were demonstrated in sparring exhibitions).

Baixingquan forms the base for training in Yiliquan. It is safe to say that much of our "basic training" consists of basic Baixing techniques and stances. Our first basic form is actually a Baixing form, and the close-quarters combat form which is popular amongst many Yili seniors, Sanbaoquan, is a Baixing form.
Baixing is utilized as a base for development of physical conditioning and coordination prior to training in the so-called "internal" methods of Yiliquan.

Love,
Sifu
June 9, 2002


"The History of Pai-Hsing Chuan

"As is the case with most Chinese Boxing Styles, the History of Pai-
Hsing Chuan is full of legend and color.

"It is said that around 1300 A. D., a monk of the famous Shao-lin
Monastery named Cho Hung-tung was trying to develop his own boxing
style from the boxing style of Shao-lin Chuan which he mastered.
Although he tried, he could not find within himself the answer which
he sought. He simply felt that the Shao-lin art was not complete and
needed changing; how to change it was another question.

"One day a great storm blew over the mountains. The monks in the
courtyard fought their way through the powerful wind to seek shelter
inside the monastery. Cho was one of these monks and on his way back
to the monastery, he noticed a small sparrow gliding gracefully on
the wind. Whilst the monks fought against the storm and tired
themselves, the bird used the storm's great strength to help it reach
it's destination and used little of it's own strength.

"Cho had discovered something and felt that he was beginning to
realize the answer to his problem. He understood that hard must be
complemented by soft and vice-versa. Thereupon, he left the
monastery to work with his idea. He traveled to Fukien Province, and
while enroute to a small village there he met an old man by the name
of Yee Sung-ti who was traveling to the same village. Cho was glad
for the company and he and Yee walked together. Cho explained that
he was very interested in the martial arts and asked if Yee knew
anyone who could teach him. As it turned out, Yee himself was a
practitioner of a little known art called Hsing-I Chuan. Thus, Cho
and Yee remained in this small, nameless village and spent many years
combining the arts of Shao-lin Chuan and Hsing-I Chuan.

"Here we have to stop and consider something. The legendary founder
of Hsing-I boxing was General Yueh Fei of the Northern Sung Dynasty
(960-1127). Although almost all schools of Hsing-I Chuan insist upon
Yueh-Fei as the founder, modern boxing historians say that there is
insufficient historical evidence to support this claim. They say
that the recorded founder was Chi Lung-feng who learned the art while
traveling in the Chung-nan Mountains between 1637 and 1661.

"According to the traditional history of Pai-Hsing Chuan, Yee was a
boxer of the Hsing-I Chuan style. This was long before Chi's
travels. Therefore, Hsing-I Chuan was known before Chi's time
although where Yee learned it is not known. There is a possibility
that Yee did not know Hsing-I Chuan per se - but learned an earlier
art upon which Hsing-I Chuan is based. General Yueh-Fei's original
art was called "Yueh's Shan-Shou" and was based on the use of the
spear. Hsing-I Chuan cannot be based on the use of the spear (in my
opinion). Although legend says that Yueh-Fei's pupils renamed the
art "Yi-Chuan" which is essentially the same as "Hsing-I Chuan" (it
is still sometimes called by the former), there is a distinct
possibility that Yee had actually learned Yueh-Fei's art. The Pai-
Hsing Chuan history would say that he learned "Yi Chuan" or "Hsing-I
Chuan" because of the legend that the general's students named his
original art so. But it may not be Hsing-I Chuan at all; it may have
been an art which is long since dead.

"In any case, Yee married and although rather aged, he produced a son
named Yee Ling-kung. Cho was a monk and never married. Thus, young
Yee learned the new art which his father and Cho developed. Cho is
thought to have died around 1350 and old Yee followed soon after.

"Young Yee ventured out - why is not known; to seek his fortune or
what ever. But he found himself eventually in a small town in Hunan
Province and arrived just in time to observe a small man engaged in
mortal combat with a much larger adversary.

"I well imagine this was a duel of some sort. The small man deftly
touched the big man's chest and with much to-do, the big man died in
a few minutes. This astounded Yee and he knelt before Ming Liong-
shih. Ming practiced an unknown form of boxing and was accomplished
in what we call "Forbidden Hands."

"Yee somehow talked Ming into returning to the source of his own
boxing style; the Shao-lin temple. Here they stayed and learned the
legendary boxing art until Yee's death. Why he died or when he died
is not known, but afterwards, Ming left the temple.

"Ming was a merchant of some sort and often traveled to the south of
China; Canton. Once while traveling there, he happened upon a group
of boys bullying a small boy. Ming stopped the bullies and found the
boy to be an orphan who hunted food in the streets and alleys. His
name was Yip-man koy. Ming took Yip under his wing and taught him
the boxing art. Ming remained in Canton, invested in a small fabric
shop, and never married. Yip did marry and had two sons of which
only one would carry on the art. This was Yip-man gu. Ming died
around 1425.

"Yip-Man gu changed the terminology of the northern art to Cantonese,
took control of his father's shop, and traveled throughout China. On
one trip, he met another fabric merchant named Li-Pai tu who
practiced an unknown boxing art. Yip and Li became partners of a
sort until Yip's death. Li then maintained the partnership with
young Yip and they decided to move north to Hunan Province. However,
Yip died of a fever during the trip.

"This left Li alone with the art. He felt compelled to leave an heir
and upon finding a small pagoda, he offered a fervent prayer.

"As he turned to leave, he saw a small boy standing behind him. This
was Choy-Fut gu. He had been listening to Li's prayer and said he
was an orphan and would be happy to stay with him.

"Choy was the first boxing genius to learn the art. Up until this
time, the art had no name which is still common with "family"
styles. Choy named it. The name he gave it was Mandarin; Chin-Shou
Ssu. "Chin" means "To Enter;" and "Shou" means "Hands." "Ssu"
means "Death; To Die." So it means roughly "the Entering Hands of
Death." Years ago, my teacher tried to explain this old name and I
thought he meant "Inside; As Inside a Building" when he actually
meant "Enter." So I mistook the name.

"Li taught Choy until Choy's skill surpassed his own and then passed
away. Choy buried him at the site of their first meeting - the
pagoda. He then traveled to Lanchow and came upon a girl whose
husband abandoned her and their son, Lung-Chin hu. Choy felt very
sorry for them and took them in. He remained in Lanchow and adopted
the boy. When he felt Lung had learned all he could teach, he
returned to the pagoda where he first met Li and it is said he died
there.

"Some years later, Lung met Wun-Tsai pai who is said to have mastered
the "Forbidden Hands" techniques. They became close friends. When
the Manchus invaded China, they fought and killed many enemies. Some
time later when Wun was in his nineties, the Manchus arrested Lung
and subsequently beheaded him. I do not know why.

"Wun was very angry and opened an underground school to teach
boxing. His most senior student was Hua-Lin ho. Hua took care of
old Wun until Wun left to avenge his friend's death. He was never
seen again. However, this would have made him over 100 years old and
I think it is more likely that he died in bed.

"Wun's school was the first school to teach our boxing art to non-
family members. Hua kept the school open for a short time, closed
it, and left for his home in Nanking (now Peking). When he arrived,
he heard of a new art called T'ai-Chi Chuan. After making some
inquiries, he met Fun-Gnoy tok and Hsiang-Lan mai, both of whom
claimed mastery of this new art. This is not likely since their
names do not appear on the record of senior students of the great
T'ai-Chi Chuan teachers of that day. In any event, Fun refused to
combine his art with anything else, but Hsiang was not disagreeable
to it.

"While Hsiang and Hua worked and trained, a young boy named Pai-Yu
cheng sat and watched them. After some time, he performed for them
and so impressed them that he was taken in and taught the art.

"Hsiang and Hua opened an underground school, but were found out by
the Manchus. Around 1810, they were both summarily executed. Pai
fled to Canton where he married and produced two sons; Pai-Fi k'ang
and Pai-Sou tung. When Pai's wife died, he and his sons traveled
throughout China until 1882 when Pai attacked a Manchu outpost. It
is said he killed 45 men before he died. However, I imagine that
Pai's sons had a hand in this attack. The Manchus were probably
heavily armed and I doubt that old Pai could have killed 45 men
singlehandedly.

"Pai had taught his sons his great "secret" technique which he named
after himself; the "Pai-Hsing Chuan" or "Pai Star Fist." I believe
this was a technique of striking with a relaxed fist which tightened
upon (and because of) impact. They traveled to Schezwan and met two
men: Ch'in-Sun wing who studied T'ai-Chi Chuan and Wang-Kai ho who
studied a new art called Pa-Kua Ch'ang.

"The Pai brothers wore their swords (which was forbidden by Manchu
law) defiantly and the two were asked if they were boxers. They
performed their art for the two men who were impressed.
Subsequently, they combined their arts.

"Wang died around 1906, before the others had finished the
development of the style. They searched for another Pa-Kua Ch'ang
practitioner and after some time, they came upon a large estate where
they saw a man performing the style for his son. T'ai-Ling lang was
his name and he agreed to work with them as long as he did not have
to travel. His business was most profitable and he had no desire to
leave it. The trio agreed.

"T'ai outlived the entire group. His most famous pupil was Chen-Wing
chou. Chen remained with T'ai until the latter's death in 1932.
During WW II, Chen learned English from an unknown American
missionary. He remained in China as the communists took power in
1949, and in 1961 fled to Taiwan.

"The following year, Chen made his way to the United States and to
Washington, DC. He lived in McLean, VA, and worked at the Pentagon
as an interpreter.

"Chen renamed the art Nei-Shou. "Nei" means "Inside; From Within"
and "Shou" means "Hands." Thus, "Hands From Within" or "Internal
Hands." In 1962, he was approached by the first non-Chinese to learn
the art. This was myself. I heard of Chen from a classmate of his,
Ho-Ming lan, who fled to Taiwan earlier than Chen, and found his way
down to Panama City in Panama.

"Ho did not know where Chen lived, but he told me of him and his
great skill. By chance, when my parents moved to McLean, my
Kyokushinkai Karate teacher had heard of this Chinese gentleman who
possessed incredible skill. How he heard of him I do not know; but
he did know where Chen lived. Again - by sheer luck - Chen lived not
more than ½ mile from me.

"Many times I approached his home and was told by Chinese (students)
that he did not live there. I kept returning. One day Chen himself
opened the door and admitted me. I hurriedly told him about studying
with Ho and with a smile, he began to teach me.

"In 1970 Chen moved to Chinatown in New York. Here he died from a
kidney aliment on February 26th, 1970 at the age of 54. He left with
me the responsibility of teaching the art. Thus, the history of the
Chu-Mo T'ang is the continuing history of the art."


This was written by my former Sifu Grand master Phillip Star

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-15-2005).]

THE LIFE AND TIMES OF W.C. CHEN

As most of you already know, W.C. Chen was my primary kung-fu teacher. I have trained and studied under numerous other instructors, but he is the one I name as my main teacher. I am writing this from all from memory and I fear that it will be woefully inadequate; I cannot hope to do justice to the man who taught me so much. But one of our seniors asked if I might try to write down some of what I recall as a student of Chen's in an effort to provide current Yili practicioners a more complete sense of where they came from.

Chen Wingchou was born in the city of Longyang in Fukien Province in 1908. Actually, the family name of Chen is very common in that area. Unlike stories concerning many other martial arts figures, Chen was neither sickly nor poor. He was quite healthy as a child and his family was actually quite well-to-do. His father owned a mill of some kind and provided well for his family so that Chen was very well-educated. He had two sisters whose names I never learned.
Chen aspired to learn martial arts from his youth and studied the southern Chinese form of Hung-Gar for some time before going to Beijing to attend college around 1926. In college he was primarily interested in the sciences, but he had a natural aptitude for learning other languages and he began to study english in his free time. He found Beijing to be a real haven for anyone learning to learn martial arts and he studied a unique form of northern Shao-lin boxing known as Hochuan (named after the person who originally developed it) from a teacher surnamed Tai. This form of boxing required very severe training and Tai accepted only a few students at a time. Chen often indicated that much of this training was spent on basic postures and movements which were repeated dozens of times in each and every class. It included not only striking and kicking techniques, but also throwing and joint-locking techniques. As I recall, he told me that broken bones were not uncommon!
It wasn't long before he was introduced to Zhang-Zhaodong, a famous teacher of both Baguazhang and Xingyichuan. Zhang had studied Bagua from the legendary Cheng-Tinghua although he was already well-known as a Xingyi boxer who made his living as a bodyguard or convoy escort. One of Chen's senior classmates, Wang-Shujin, would eventually become world-famous. Zhang had also been introduced to and studied briefly from the founder of Baguazhang, Dong-Haichuan. Zhang favored Xingyi and emphasized the utility of the basic postures and the development of striking power. He favored the "KISS" principle ("Keep It Simple, Stupid...") and his Bagua shows a clear Xingyi influence. Although Zhang's teacher, Cheng, had a strong shuai-jiao (grappling) background which heavily influenced his practice of Bagua, Zhang disdained the use of many grappling techniques and stripped his form of Bagua to the bare bones.
After college, Chen remained in the Beijing area and worked for a company which produced some kind of paint. He continued his study of martial arts. I suspect that martial arts training was the real reason for his remaining in the area and not returning home to take part in his father's business. It was during this time that he met the woman who would become his wife (her first name was Mei, but I never learned her original family name).
After they were married, they rented a small apartment and Mei became pregnant. Sadly, the child was stillborn and she did not conceive again.
In 1935, tensions with Japan were at a high level and the Chinese feared that war might break out. Chen decided to return home during that time. His Shao-lin teacher, Tai, was very ill and knew that he was going to die. Chen had promised Tai that he would remain with him to the end. He lived up to his promise, remaining in Beijing until Tai passed away. The following year, the Japanese bombed Shanghai and Chen joined the Army as an officer. He served in the infantry but later worked in the field of intelligence. This experience left him with a permanent dislike of things Japanese; a common phenomenon with many Chinese of that time.
At the end of the war in 1945, fighting broke out between the communists (led by a youngster named Mao-Zedong), and the "republic" which was headed by a former warlord known as Chiang-Kaichek. When Chiang's army was eventually defeated and fled (with many civilians) to the island of Taiwan, Chen remained with his family in China. He spoke little of these times and I believe that both of his parents passed away prior to his decision to leave China in 1952.
I believe that Chen and his wife escaped to Taiwan on a boat, but the details were never revealed to me. I do know that after he arrived in the new Republic of China in Taiwan, he went to work for military intelligence there. He wanted to come to the United States and did so in 1960. Just how this was arranged, I do not know...but he went to work immediately as "an interpreter" (as he told me). I was quite young at the time and my Father was a U.S. Army colonel who was stationed in the Pentagon. I naturally assumed that that was where Chen worked since he indicated that his work as an interpreter was used by the U.S. military and intelligence agencies. Looking back, it is altogether possible that he actually worked for CIA or perhaps DIA or some other intelligence gathering agency. The town where he lived, McLean, Virginia, was loaded with CIA personnel. It is altogether possible that he was recruited by one of these agencies when he was living in Taiwan and they arranged for him to move to America. In any case, he spoke very, very little about what his job. When I would ask about it, he'd just brush off my questions and move to another topic.
I do know that he despised the communists and what they had done to his homeland. He would never, ever trust anyone who was, or had been, communist.
In any case, Chen's first love was martial arts and once in the U.S., he began teaching. He referred to the northern Shao-lin system he'd learned as neishou ("inside hands") and sought to find a way to blend Xingyi and Bagua with it. He never really succeeded in this effort and continued to teach these arts seperately, hoping that his students would learn to "blend" them according to their own levels of understanding and skill.
Like virtually all Chinese kung-fu teachers of that time, Chen taught martial arts only to other Chinese. He did not believe that Americans (or anyone else) could really grasp the essence of the Chinese martial arts, and that they also probably lacked the discipline to learn it in it's fullness.
I met Chen in 1962, having been told about a "kung-fu teacher" in the area by a couple of my karate classmates. As it happened, he lived only a few blocks from my house (a distance of perhaps a mile or a little more) and, after making several visits to his home and telling him that I had studied a form of kung-fu previously, I was allowed inside. I suspect that Chen was amused with this young teenager who insisted that he'd studied kung-fu and who kept pestering him and his wife. After some questioning, he determined that I had, in fact, studied kung-fu under one of his junior Shao-lin classmates! He took me under his wing and introduced me to his other students.
Virtually all of his other students were adults and none of them looked favorably on having an American classmate. Kung-fu was a part of Chinese culture that only the Chinese could really understand and more importantly, it was a secret which was not to be taught to "outsiders." So for the most part, they simply chose to ignore me. I think this actually worked against them as it forced Chen to spend more time with me, explaining various aspects of the art. I asked many questions (not knowing that this was normally forbidden) and Chen happily answered them as best he could. This brought us closer together and in time, he began to look upon me as the son he never had.
I trained with Chen several times weekly, often staying at his home until well after dark (which really irritated my parents). He was very proud of his english and tried to explain virtually everything in my native tongue. This made things difficult at times. When he explained the lineage of the art I was learning, I tried to phonetically sound out what I thought were names of various people, but it turned out that many of these were nicknames. Some words which I thought were names of people were actually names of certain martial arts with which Chen was familiar. He also knew many other martial arts teachers in China and some of their names became confused with the names of those instructors of my lineage.
Since he hailed from the Guangzhou area (ie., "Canton"; southern China), Chen spoke fluent Cantonese. He also spoke fluent Mandarin due to his time in Beijing. When referring to something in Chinese, he usually spoke Mandarin but this was often difficult for me. Young American teenagers are not predisposed to learn how to make the odd sounds of Mandarin, so when difficulties arose he would simply switch the name(s) to Cantonese. For example, the word for "teacher" in Mandarin is shih-fu which can be tough to pronounce correctly. It's Cantonese equivalent, Sifu, is much easier for Americans to enunciate.
Chen's life was centered around his practice of martial arts. He stood perhaps 5'6" and weighed maybe 130 lbs. soaking wet and after a substantial meal. He had coal-black hair with a severely receding hairline and very dark eyes. His upper body was very strong (and looked like it) with a powerful chest and back and sinewy arms. His hands and fingers were thick and muscular and his legs were like two small iron pillars. In a word, his body was hard and he trained daily to keep it that way. His grip was akin to that of a vise and he often liked to jokingly poke me with his fingers which were like iron spikes and quite thick.
He came to understand that karate was a fine martial art, even if the Japanese did practice it...although sadly, he never lost his distaste for the Japanese themselves.
To him, life was training and vice-versa. Work and social life were placed below training on his lift of priorities. Mei was happy to leave him to whatever made him happy; she was a kind of ideal Chinese wife.
In the late 60's, Chen developed a kidney ailment. I never found out exactly what it was, but his passing (in 1967) was a heavy blow to me. I believe Mei returned to Taiwan as I was never able to contact her after her husband's death. Only one of my students, Larry Hart (who, I think, became a psychologist in Rhode Island), ever spoke to Chen (by phone). None of my students had ever met him. My classmates scattered to the four winds and I never heard anything from any of them - they wouldn't have known my address anyway; we weren't real close.
Chen's teaching and way of living had a tremendous influence on me. To this day, I measure my skill and progress by what his was. I took what Chen taught me and ultimately turned it into what is now known as Yilichuan. I am certain that he would be more than pleased with what I have managed to accomplish and with the fine students; his "grand-students", who I have taught over the years.

Phillip Star

In today's martial arts world which is often filled with so much "eclectic" homemade martial arts (and everything else), it is often important to sit back and reflect on the true roots of the martial art(s) which we practice. In this way, we can come to understand why our system is structured the way it is; why we do what we do. To know where you're going, it's important to know where you've been...
Yilichuan is a system which is comprised of four traditional styles of kung-fu. Each of these styles has it's own unique history and flavor and it's important to understand how those histories have affected the development of those arts and thus, Yili. It should be understood that Yilichuan is a traditional system in that it insists of training in the traditional manner as it were. A good many so-called "traditional" styles of kung-fu or even karate and other martial arts have allowed themselves to "change with the times," thus losing more or less of their original nature and essence. Yili has steadfastly refused to go this route, save for adding special training such as defensive maneuvers against firearms and the like, and in doing so it has retained many very old and "traditional" methods of training which are rarely seen in other schools.
But for now, let's look at how the history of each style (used in Yili) has affected it........

BAIXINGCHUAN (White Star Fist) was a sort of "underground" form of northern Shao-lin kung-fu. Originally said to have been conceived by a Shao-lin monk named Cho or Chou (or Zhou), it moved away from the older forms of Shao-lin which often relied heavily on meeting force with force and hardening the body.
One must remember that there is really no such thing as a single style of kung-fu known simply as "Shao-lin." Over the years of Shao-lin's existance, many forms of kung-fu developed there. These would include Fut-Ga (Buddha Family), Hung-Ga (Hung Family), Choy Ga (Choy Family), Mok-Ga (Mok Family), and many, many others. Some were developed within the temple walls while others were developed by Shao-lin monks outside of the monastery. I believe that Baixingchuan was developed outside of the actual temple itself.
It should also be borne in mind that most of Baixing's development occured during the Ching (Manchu) Dynasty. The northern Manchus (who are not han Chinese) invaded China and crushed the prosperous and legendary Ming Dynasty. One of the insults they heaped upon the Chinese people was the wearing of the queue (long pigtail) by all males......because for them, it resembled a horse's a**. However, the Chinese being the kind of people they are, assimilated this new custom and it actually became quite popular.
The Ching Dynasty, much to the chagrin of the Chinese and their efforts to overthrow it, would last until 1900 when the infamous Boxer Rebellion took place and the establishment of the Republic by Dr. Sun Yatsen which ultimately failed. The end result was what we see today; a communist state.
In any case, during the time of the Ching, the practice of martial arts was not looked upon with favor because the government feared that people might try to use it to rebel against the new regime. It was during this period of terrible unrest, rebellion, and violence that Baixingchuan developed.
Baixingchuan emphasizes yielding to the opponent's attack and then countering with an overwhelming blitz of powerful, bone-crushing techniques. It certainly wasn't a style favored by the weak of heart; the training was spartan and extremely rigorous (does this sound familiar?). It emphasized that one must develop the ability to destroy the enemy in a single blow and so it made extensive use of the striking post and other pieces of equipment.
Although not much is known about those who developed this style, it is known that a few of them were revolutionaries who were openly hostile to the Ching government. They had little use for "flowery" techniques or forms; everything was direct and "to the point." They trained for long-range fighting (as seen in forms such as Ganbahu) as well as close-quarters combat (look at Sanbaochuan).

TAIJICHUAN originated in Chen Village. It's origin is traditionally attributed to a legendary figure named Chang Sanfeng, but there is little evidence that such a person really existed and newer research (on the mainland) has uncovered the truth.
Wang Sungyueh had been a general in the Chinese army under the famous Chi Jiguang who provided extensive matial arts training for all of his commanders and their troops. Therefore, Wang had learned parts of various styles, but what they actually were remains a mystery. After defeating a number of challengers in Chen Village, he taught his art to Chen Wangting who subsequently combined Wang's art with the local boxing style known as "Pao-Chui." Thus, the so-called "Chen" style is actually the original style of Taijichuan.
Yang Luchan learned the Chen style and became very famous, especially after developing his own version of the art (Yilichuan emphasizes Yang's Taiji as well as Sun's). He had two sons; Yang Panhou and Yang Chien (his third son, Yang Chi, died in his youth).
Yang Panhou liked to fight and actually killed several men in duels. He died young. Yang Chien, on the other hand, had two sons, Yang Shaochung and Yang Chengfu. It was Yang Chengfu who took the art to southern China and popularized "Yang's Taiji" such that it became the most popular martial art in the world.
The founder of Yang's Taiji, Yang Luchan, became so famous that he was ordered to appear before the imperial court to perform and later to teach the nobles there. This presented a considerable set of problems. First, Yang had little love for the Manchus and determined that he would not teach them the true art; he'd give them a watered-down version. However, he also knew that the court officials led soft lives and were in poor physical condition (and not likely to be very fond of rigorous exercise). How could he teach them without causing them considerable physical pain and thereby lose his head?
His idea was to practice primarily in slow motion so as not to cause too much discomfort. Taiji was normally taught in slow-motion to beginners so as to lalow them to "get the feel" of the movements and allow them to learn how to move "from the inside" but Yang determined that his new pupils would ALWAYS do it in slow motion. Stances were made higher and shorter, too.
His idea worked and Yang died an old man with his head intact. Unfortunately, his popular method of constant slow-motion practice became the "norm" for many Taiji practicioners of the day...and it still remains so. Yang emphasized the health aspects of the art and it's slow, graceful movements and because of this Taijichuan was and still is practiced by millions of Chinese every day. Unfortunately, most of them have no idea of how one might apply this art combatively.
Sun Lutang was already a famous practicioner of Xingyi and Bagua when he took up the practice of Taiji under Kuo Weijin and Hao Weichen. Kuo had developed his own style of Taiji after training with Wu-Yuxing (founder of the compact Wu Style) which never became popular outside of China, and Hao had trained under Yang Panhou and learned the "secret" family style of the Yang's.
Sun created his own version of Taijichuan (Sun's style) which blended some Xingyi and a touch of Bagua with Taiji. This is mostly seen in it's sudden explosive movements which are not to be found in Yang's style at all.

XINGYICHUAN is attributed to the legendary general, Yao Fei but there is no concrete evidence to support the claim. The first known practicioner was Chi Longfeng who is said to have been an expert in the use of the lance. Just where he learned the art of the spear is not known, but it was likely during military service. The art's early practicioners and teachers were men who took their training very seriously and many worked as bodyguards and convoy escorts; vocations which normally reduced one's lifespan considerably. This is a marked contrast to Yang Taiji's early practicioners being of royal blood.
Xingyi practicioners had little time for much in the way of fancy movements. Their art emphasized very quick and penetrating "blitzing" techniques which sought to overwhelm and literally run over or through the opponent. They favored interception and "wedging through" the enemy's attack so as to penetrate through his center with an array of powerful blows which would not cease until he was down. Unlike Taijichuan which utilized a wide variety of techniques (including kicks, joint locks, and throws), Xingyi stuck to the minimum, using almost no kicks and de-emphasizing grappling of any kind.
It should be borne in mind that convoy guards would often have to fight multiple enemies at the same time. Grappling with one opponent would allow the others to close in and finish the job. Thus, Xingyi's emphasis on bone-crushing, gut-wrenching blows and it's KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) principle.

BAGUACHANG was first practiced by Dong Haichuan. Although there are legendary tales about how Dong learned the art, the truth is that he spent a decade or so at the Shao-lin Temple in Honan Province and he developed a great fondness for their open-hand "palm" techniques. He later chanced upon a group of Daoist hermits who practiced a strange form of chigong which involved walking around the rim of a large circle. Dong must have been a most ingenious fellow because he combined his striking techniques with this chigong exercise to develop a whole new martial art. One should also remember that after ten years at Shao-lin, Dong would also be highly skilled in various techniques of kicking and grappling as well as other things.
Dong taught many pupils but his two best known were Yin Fu and Cheng Tinghua. Dong refused to teach anyone who did not already have extensive training in another martial art. When he did accept a new pupil, he would teach them the Single and Double Change Palm (forms) and then assist them in developing their own "way" of performing the art. This certainly didn't help standardize the style and today there are dozens of different forms opf Bagua.
Yin Fu had trained extensively in Tan-Tui (The Springy-Leg art which emphasizes kicking) and northern Shao-lin. His form of Bagua looks very much like Shao-lin boxing performed on a circle. Cheng Tinghua was an expert in Shuai-Jiao (grappling), and so this is reflected in his method.
One of Cheng's students was a certain Chang Chaodong who worked frequently as a bodyguard and convoy escort. An expert in Xingyi, he took up the study of Bagua with Cheng and was able to train for a short time with the founder of the art, Dong himself. Chang had little use for grappling maneuvers (although his teacher favored them) and preferred the short, direct approach which is typical of Xingyi exponents. This was my teacher's teacher.

YILICHUAN has synthesized these arts by blending them into one and adding it's own special principles and concepts. At the same time, I will confess that Yili has been influenced by Japanese culture and the spirit of it's arts (this is sacrilege to many traditionally-minded kung-fu practicioners, especially those who are Chinese). How could it be otherwise? I spent many years training in traditional Japanese karate.

And so, Yiliquan is a most unique art. Let's look at some of the things which come out of the histories of our foundations:

* Yili's emphasis on evasion come directly from Bagua as do it's various methods of stepping and body movement (insofar as evasive maneuvers are concerned). All of Yili's evasive maneuvers can be found in the circle-walking exercise of traditional Bagua.

*Yili's principles of "changing the point of focus" of the enemy's attack are taken mainly from Taiji.

*Yili's emphasis on penetration over and through the opponent come straight out of Xingyi which features exactly the same thing. Yili's careful analysis of body timing also comes from Xingyi.

*Yili's extensive use of grappling is derived from Baixing, Taiji, and Bagua.

*Most of Yili's kicks come out of Baixingchuan.

*Yili disdains traditional methods of falling (when thrown) as used in traditional Chinese grappling because it is impractical and dangerous. Instead, it uses Japanese forms of ukemi (breakfalling) and this is being found more and more in kung-fu schools.

*Yili's insistance on developing the ability to "kill in a single blow" actually is derived more from Japanese sources than anything else. And insofar as Japanese martial arts go, this concept seems to have originated in the art of kenjitsu (swordfighting).

*Analyzation of and training in the principles/concepts of timing, distance, and rhythm come largely from Japanese sources although some of them are peculiar to Yili itself.

*The use of horizontal and vertical strength (as defined in Yili) are peculiar to Yili.

*The various pieces of training equipment found in most Yili schools come from a variety of sources. The striking post from Baixing, the candle and paper from Japanese karate.....

*Yili's extensive practice of One-Step actually comes from Baixing and karate, and it's heavy emphasis on Freestyle One-Step comes from Baixing (although it was once very common in traditional Japanese karate schools).

The truth is that most schools which teach Taijichuan, Xingyichuan, Baguachang, and forms of Shao-lin no longer utilize the older training methods. Why? Because many of them are extremely rigorous and severe or because they have become misunderstood and their value depreciated. This is unfortunate because it has led, I believe, to a terrible degeneration of the real martial arts of both China and japan. Instructors (particularly those who teach full-time) fear that forcing students to undergo such severe training will result in heavy losses when students quit. Certainly, some will give up because they lack the spirit for such training and perhaps because they have entered the training hall for the wrong reasons, but in my schools we let students know that they were part of a very special group; they were linked directly to their martial arts ancestors bcause they underwent the same kind of training and developed the same strong spirit. This actually helped maintain a fairly high enrollment much of the time.

I intend to present a short series of lectures on the old, traditional ways of training in our founding arts and this lecture will serve as a sort of introduction.

Love,
Sifu

meijin, these are letters from Sifu Star
I hope this answers your questions about Baixingquan/ Pai-Hsing Chuan/ Bai-xing Chuan
However you want to spell it



[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-15-2005).]

definately a mixed internal martial art. From that description...wherever it is from it definately is a bastardization of hsing-i.

what I don't understand though is this:

[QUOTE] Baixing has never utilized any "two-man forms" at all.[/QUOTE]

Thats like leaving out one of the most important aspects of hsing-i and the other IMA.

And again...Why did you lose all your progress for smothering a flame....I'm like a broken type writer. I really would like to know though. Very curious about the explanation for that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hardluck:
definately a mixed internal martial art. From that description...wherever it is from it definately is a bastardization of hsing-i.

what I don't understand though is this:

Thats like leaving out one of the most important aspects of hsing-i and the other IMA.

And again...Why did you lose all your progress for smothering a flame....I'm like a broken type writer. I really would like to know though. Very curious about the explanation for that.[/QUOTE]

Because I was willing to sacrifice the three months of training to try the experiments to see if I could project my jing. No big deal when you look at the big picture.


Philip "Pete" Starr was born in 1949 to a career army officer and started his kung fu training with master Ho Ming Lam in 1956 at the age of seven. In his teens he took up Shito Ryu karate and later Kyokushinkai, earning black belts in each of them. But his real training came when his family moved to McLean, VA. There he would find master Chen Wing Chou, who taught the Shaolin system of Baixingquan (White Star Fist) and the internal systems of Xing Yi, Taiji, and Bagua. Later he became Chen's most senior student.

Around the time of Chen's death in 1970, Mr. Starr completed college and began work in law enforcement. In 1974 he joined the USKA and was placed on their National Research Board and National Rules Committee. He also became the head of the USKA Chinese Boxing Committee. Thus his life in martial arts politics began.After winning a few national championships (in karate tournaments - there weren't any kung fu tournaments at the time) and becoming a chapter leader in JKD and a certified instructor in Pekiti-Tersia he moved to Cedar Rapids, IA and set up his school and headquarters.

In 1982, Mr. Starr was chosen as one of 30 U.S. instructors to travel to China to perform and study with some of China's greatest masters. There, they nicknamed him "Thunderbolt Fist" and made him an honorary member of the All China Sports Federation. Upon returning to the U.S., he had an epiphany of sorts as to how martial arts should be taught and practiced and Yiliquan was born. As with many works of art, a great idea went through many trials, changes and tweaks until it was ready for demonstration to the public.

That demonstration came years later when Mr. Starr became the first National Chairman for the AAU's Chinese Martial Arts division. When he took the position, the Chinese Martial Arts division was the smallest of the AAU clubs. When he left, it was the second largest. During those years he organized and hosted the first recognized National Chinese Martial Arts tournament. It was through his efforts here that he was named "Man of the Year" for Inside Kung Fu's Hall of Fame.
Yiliquan= one principle boxing

Sijo Miskimen's style is called. Fu Shi Tao
and my TKD GM is Woo Jin Jung. I hope that answers your questions If not Sorry

Meijin, although shotokan and tang soo do are mostly external styles You can't have one without the other. I would also like to note that when steping in shotokan and tang soo do as well as in all hard sytles you should be grounding your internal energy mid step. If you know what I mean and if you don't you will figure it out.

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-15-2005).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Because I was willing to sacrifice the three months of training to try the experiments to see if I could project my jing. No big deal when you look at the big picture.[/QUOTE]

why did projecting your jing cause you to lose all your progress?

Go train in LKJ and find out.

Sabum nim,
This has been an utterly fascinating read. Sa bum nim, You managed to do on this thread the very same thing you did on previous TKD threads. You begin with a vauge assertion, offer to instruct or enlighten, then condesend. Then you generally become irritated and say something like" I didn't come here to fight with you"You then post long quote from recognised masters, i.e. General Choi, to support the vagaries of your supposition.
Do you really have trouble understanding why it is people find themselves at odds with you at times. I would like to think of myself as a person who doesnt hold grudges but to be honest on previous threads you made some accusations toward me that were untrue and it has continued to irk me. When I addressed the issue, then and asked a question (POOF) you were gone like a Qi blown candle. I hope that you will judge the participants of the energy arts forum as fairly as you judge tournament sparring.

oldman

HardluckL

I would assume, from dealing with other such issues and claims that the "tremendous efforts to put the candle out drain the jing from him and it took that long to replentish it". I am not saying at all that I buy that, but I am assuming that is what it means.

Sa Bum Nim:

Please...let's get one thing straight very quickly. One does not project jing (or jin for that matter). Jing (and I will use the common wording here, not the correct wording) is the outward physical manifestation or expression of internal energy. It is not something that can be sent outside of the body no more than a car can emit horsepower outside of an engine. If you want to say that you project qi to get a desired result, then we can certainly debate that...but what we cannot debate is the projection of jin[g].

Michael

[QUOTE]Originally posted by meijin:
I would assume, from dealing with other such issues and claims that the "tremendous efforts to put the candle out drain the jing from him and it took that long to replentish it". I am not saying at all that I buy that, but I am assuming that is what it means.
[/QUOTE]

This was the reply I was expecting...because personally I couldn't think of any other "explanation". Of course I get no answer...which i was also expecting [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Anyway I just felt the need to call him out on it. While I know you all try to keep the discussions here as open as possible, I would really hate to think this person might have an influence over another individual and convince them you could project your "jing" to smother a flame (not only that but lose all that hard earned "work" :rolleyes [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG].

I should just try harder to ignore posts like this.

I've studied and trained in a secret way to put out candles without losing any amount of qi worth mentioning

Perhaps he is confusing "jin"-trained power with jing-seminal essenses. Regardless, I've seen these Empty Force guys (aptly named) and it's always "I don't want to use too much of my power because you are not strong enough." I've trained IMA for decades with some of the more well known practitioners, no brag, just fact, and to a man they dismiss this crap as hocum.

Jing is not Expression. Jing translated actually means force, thus Kong Jing = empty force. We can call chi energy if you like a lot of people do. However, there are many ways to describe chi. Heaven chi, earth chi, nourishment chi, ect.ect.. but actually there is only one type of chi and everything has it whether living or not. i.e.. My desk has chi in it, as it is made up of molecules and all molecules have positive and negative particles. Protons and neutrons.

Actually tuning into chi is what you do. Jing is what is projected. Jing which some call expression, some call energy, and some call force, is what is applied.

I would like to ask a question Meijin please tell us of your experiences with Lin Kong Jing? or Kong Jing? since you were a student of Sifu Mooney and are a 2nd level certified instructor tell us of your experience with experiments in projection

Thanks

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-15-2005).]

Hardluck and Meijin, here is the answer. I really don't know why. But, Hardluck as far as Baixing being a bastardization of Xing-i, You couldn't be more wrong. I have shared some of my experiences with LKJ and a brief over view of the art of Baixing and some of its linage with the board which none of you had heard of. I trained under Sifu Star for quite some time and acknowledge him as the instructor that has influenced me probably the most. As Far as my LKJ training goes I never said I was a master I just told of my personal experiences and what I have learned. I thought the boards were for sharing. Not a competition.

Oldman, I simply went to the source and you people don't like that. I never trained under Choi nor did I say I had. But my GM in TKD, whom I teach for was one of Choi's personal advisors. Do I need to prove that to you also? I never intended to "IRK" you as you say I have. I answered the questions put before me. If you have a problem with that, Well that's your problem not mine Remember the 4th tenet? Self-control. Don't blame me if your Irked. Blame yourself.

Now to everyone, We can either Bicker with each other or learn from each other I choose to learn.

[This message has been edited by Sa Bum Nim (edited 03-15-2005).]

Sa bum nim

Hows that for editing?

oldman




[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 03-16-2005).]

Oh My Lord.....Nice convienent editing oldman. Since you admit to holding some sort of grudge and I told you I didn't want to argue with you and I really don't think I can say it any more plain than that. Here I will try another approach because I guess you don't understand plain english.

How about this? I never asked you to agree with me did I and because of this grudge you hold you keep challenging me. Can it and don't talk to me. Did you understand that? SHEESH

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sa Bum Nim:
Oh My Lord.....Nice convienent editing oldman. Since you admit to holding some sort of grudge and I told you I didn't want to argue with you and I really don't think I can say it any more plain than that. Here I will try another approach because I guess you don't understand plain english.

How about this? I never asked you to agree with me did I and because of this grudge you hold you keep challenging me. Can it and don't talk to me. Did you understand that? SHEESH[/QUOTE]

This has never been about Agreement. It is about accuracy and your arrogance.

You stated:
Oldman, you answered by not giving the answer. How convienent.

I gave the answer, you did not, How convienient .

You could have just answered the question or offered an apology . I would have accepted either.

oldman

Sa Bum Nim:

In this thread you define fa jin[g] one way and when it suits you, you define it another. I am beginning to see what Oldman ment with his posts regarding prior dealings with you.

If you will go back and read what I wrote earlier concerning Lin Kong Jing, you will see that I indicated quite clearly that "projection" of anything is NOT the primary goal of LKJ. The final goal is the jin[g]...or the internal power that you can express as a result of the qi cultivation and storing.

As to my experiences with "projection", they worked quite nicely usually...what in particular do you want to know?

As to Kong Jing, it is totally different from Lin Kong Jing...not the same thing at all. I have no experience with Kong Jing.

And, by way of your wording, you seem to think my credentials with LKJ are not what I have stated. If this is the case, just contact Richard Mooney. I was a direct student of his, have my instructor certification license from him, I have assisted him in teaching seminars on LKJ in TX, NJ and TN and I have also appeared on a video training tape that was produced by the DSI. If you have any questions, contact him directly.

Enough of an answer for you?

What I am saying If i say car and you say automobile isn't that the same thing? I guess we will have to agree to disagree no problem.
Can you tell me some of you LKJ experiments you did and the results.
Thanks

This crap is fakery of the highest order and Mooney is it's high priest. At the request of George Mattson (famed uechi ryu master) he submitted to a double blind test and was debunked. Please see:
uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/an_empty_force.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BaguaZhang:
This crap is fakery of the highest order and Mooney is it's high priest. At the request of George Mattson (famed uechi ryu master) he submitted to a double blind test and was debunked. Please see:
uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/an_empty_force.htm[/QUOTE]

I disagree with you Baqua but to each their own

Once there was a man and a woman. They stood in their kitchen together when the man heard the woman groan. " Whats up honey" said the man. "I was at the store earlier and I forgot to get apples. I really need them for a recipe and I don't have time to go back. The man said "Honey you know I love you and would do anything for you, let me go to the store and get apples". The lady replied "You would do that for me? you must really love me. You are so understanding.I love you and I always will". He replied "Anything for you my love". So he went to the store and asked the grocer for his best apples. The Grocer complied and brought out the most beautiful apples either of them had ever seen. The man paid a premium price for the glorious produce. He left the store excited to know that he could express his love for his mate in this practical fashion. He entered the house and called out to his mate "Honey I'm home I've got the apples you wanted,and I must say they are the most beautiful apples ever seen!" The lady took one look at the apples and said " Those are Macintosh I needed Granny Smith!!! The man replied "What I am saying is, I say apple and you say apple isn't that the same thing? I guess we will have to agree to disagree no problem".



[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 03-17-2005).]

You're not disagreeing with me,I have no stake in this. You are ignoring the obvious truth because it does not conform with your belief.

Don't want to take any part in a debate on a subject I'm not competent in, but I'd just like to correct two mistakes made by Sa Bum Nim, regardless of the rest of his statements on which I will make no judgement, having no knowledge of what is being discussed here.

First, Peking(Beijing in the now official pinyin translitteration) is not the new name of Nanking (Nanjing in pinyin): these are distinct cities which both still exist, and as their name says, Beijing is situated in northern China (bei = north) while Nanjing is situated in southern China (nan = south).
And as for "positive and negative particles: protons and neutrons", protons are positive particles indeed, but neutrons are definitely not negative: as their name says quite plainly, they're neutral [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]. The negative particles of the atom are the electrons.

I'm aware that these menial details aren't relevant to the debate at hand, but again it is not my wish to take part in it anyway. I just couldn't help correcting those two minor errors (well, minor regarding the topic, that is [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])...

Respectful regards to you all.

Thank you for the correction on the particules the point i was making was everything is made up of energy. If I am understanding your correction on the translation of the word Jing why is it you directed the correction only at me. I didn't even bring it up. But thanks for the info. I have known for along time that if you ask a non martial artist Chinese who speaks different dialects i.e. Cantonese, mandarin you will get completely different translations of what the words actually mean.

I am still waiting to here of what experiments in LKJ you have done Meijin and the results

Thanks to all.

Oops!
My apology! I realize now my linguistic bit must have sounded confusing according to what had been said previously. My correction had nothing to do with jing: as far as I know, the "jing" in Beijing and Nanjing has nothing to do with the jing being discussed here (different tone and different ideogram). I was just referring to an errated passage of your post about the history of
baixingquan:
"...and left for his home in Nanking (now Peking)."
I just wanted to explain that Nanking (or Nanjing, in pinyin) is a whole different city from Peking(or Beijing), and they both still exist: the first is in southern China, the second in northern China - and is the current capital of China, by the way (People's Republic of China, that is). And since their respective names roughly indicate their location, there's no way they can be one and the same city...
I hope my explanation was clearer this time...

SaBumNim,

Although YiLiQuan uses several forms of QiGong (stake standing being just one), Mr. Starr is not an advocate of Mooney or Dillman.

I appreciate your posting some of the history here, but by dropping Mr. Starr's name along with the others in your posts, it seems as if he is of the same mind. Well, he's not...

I just wanted to make that clear for the others reading this thread.

chufeng

Cheng I think you took this the wrong way. I studied under Sifu Starr and when questioned about the style Biaxing I was showing where it came from and it's linage. As far as Dillman I never mentioned him. I have had conversations with Mooney.

I was doing Lin Kong Jing under Sifu Starr at the age of 15 even though at the time I didn't know what it was called I only knew it as chi gung then. But I was able to move a 12x12 piece of canvas suspended by 2 stings from the ceiling with my chi gung exercises taught to me by Sifu Starr back then.

Sifu Starr told me of masters who could knock out a person from across the room without even touching them.

He demonstrated and taught Fajing quite often. Let me just say heavy bags were falling like fly's, being split with internal punches and kicks back then.

How is Sifu I heard he moved back to Omaha recently? I could tell you some amazing things that happened in the C. R. Kwoon back then.

My initial post was about Zhan Zhaung as the foundation to the internal arts. The problem is that standing meditation. was nearly forgotten when it came to the internal arts of the West Fortunately Sifu Starr was one of the few who Knew this and made us practice this during class quite often. As Far as Mooneys Validity I can only say this. What I have experienced from Mooneys teachings has made me a lot more sensitive to chi than ever before and able to read an opponents intention better as well as having what I feel as significant success with the experiments I have attempted.

SaBumNim,

e-mail me...you probably know me, just not my handle...

Mark Hachey