I-Chin-Ching

Posted by: Anonymous

I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 07:51 AM

I have been a martial artist for 32 years. I have been practicing the I-Chin-Ching for 6 years. My teachers were Grandmaster Sin Kwan TheĀ“ and Master James Halladay. I would be happy to share my knowledge with any who ask. The practice takes about 6 hours if done quickly.
Posted by: nenipp

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 01:21 PM

Can you tell us some more first, then it would be easier to make up one's mind as to wether one is interested or not?
If it isn't too much trouble, that is.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 01:47 PM

Chrisgraves99, which Chinese Shaolin Center did you attend?

I attended the CSC in Boulder and Denver under Masters David and Sharon Soard for a few years myself and I am also familiar with the I Chin Ching (Dynamic Muscle Tendon Change exercises).

I am curious if you were able to learn any of the Pa Kua or Hsing I that the CSC teaches.

Regards
Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 03:14 PM

I would recommend anyone interested in this research Sin The and the lineage he presents prior to embarking on that path.

Michael
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 04:38 PM

Michael,

Just curious, do you have experience with the Sin The lineage also?

Regards,

Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 11:38 PM

I am heartened by the replies I have received so far. As for researching the lineage, what is your point? This goes all the way back to Bodhidharma and his adaptation of the Indian ksatreiya techniques in 529 A.D. I am not so concerned with where it came from as the fact that this is my practice, and it works for me. If you wish to learn, the knowledge is available. As for what it does, it allows me to strengthen my chi. As a side-effect, it also strengthens my body, improves my balance, focuses my mind, and helps me daily to be a more effective Buddhist.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 02/28/05 11:45 PM

If you wish to learn, email me directly at chrisgraves99@yahoo.com
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/01/05 06:10 AM

Chrisgraves99 posted...

[QUOTE]As for what it does, it allows me to strengthen my chi.[/QUOTE]

Can you explain how the I Chin Ching 'strengthens' your chi?
How does a dynamic muscle tendon change exercise - even with breath incorperated - strengthen ones chi?

Sooooo,
Which Shaolin Center did you study at?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/01/05 08:23 AM

I learned from Master Halladay directly from 1998 to 2003. I have proof and paperwork also, oh suspicious one! :-) As for strengthening the chi, the short version is that the internal component of the practice involves forcing the chi flow through the tensed muscles, following the various circles of heaven and the associated meridians. by the way, is Sharon still a blond?
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/01/05 08:37 AM

Chrisgraves99,

I wasn't questioning if your 'credentials' are valid, just curious as to which CSC you had trained in.
It seems that there are 2 different branches within the Sin Kwan The school that have masters within the US. Those under Bill Leonard and those under the Soards. I guess I was curious as to which one your teacher, Master Halladay, studied under.
I am curious as to what differences and similarities exist between each 'branch'.

[QUOTE]by the way, is Sharon still a blond?[/QUOTE]
I don't know. I have not been to the CSC in a few years.

As for what you said about how qi is strengthened within the I Chin Ching, I have to disagree with a couple of things. Unfortunately I am at work right now, so my RE: to that will have to wait till later.

Regards,
Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/01/05 12:06 PM

Thank you for the clarification. As for ''branches'' , I have no idea. I studied in order to learn one specific thing, the I-Chin-Ching. I have managed to remain blissfully ignorant of the internecine politics, and so cannot help you there. I do know that the practice works very well for me, but my main focus is not martial arts so much as compassion for all beings. I have been living as a monk since 1992, and the I-Chin-Ching is my meditation. A very wise person once told me that the secret to the greatest self-defense in the world was to ''Have No Enemies''. Not ''make no enemies'' , not ''leave no enemies alive'' , and not ''vanquish all your enemies'' , but simply to live your life in such a way that you HAVE no enemies. True compassion for all beings means I stop any physical confrontation before it starts, if possible, and if not, then do so in such a fashion that no one is injured. To care enough for the angry violent person that I stop them from causing injury to myself or others in order to prevent the angry person from accruing the bad karma that would occur if they were allowed to injure another.
Imagine having a 3 year old son or daughter who wanted cookies for dinner, and when you told them ''no'', they got angry and tried to injure you. Do you grab their arm and pull and perform wrist-break? Do you squat and sweep with Iron Broom? No. Why not? Because that is your child, and you love them. Most beings who respond to a situation with violent anger are operating from the emotional level of a child...''you hurt me, so I'm going to hurt you'' , or ''you scared me, so I'm going to hurt you'', or ''you have something I want, so I'm going to hurt you and take it, because I haven't learned better yet'', and beating children up is not acceptable. To truly love and have compassion for all beings is extremely difficult, but that is my goal. Yes, I know that it sounds corny, but it works for me, and has done so successfully for a long time...including 12 years employment with the Illinois Department of Corrections. I make no claims for anyone else's experience with the I-Chin-Ching, only my own. If you wish someday to walk this path, then I will be glad to assist in any way that I can.
Sincerely,
Chris Graves

[This message has been edited by Chrisgraves99 (edited 03-01-2005).]
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 12:29 PM

Chrisgraves99,
First of I'd have to say what you have chosen as your 'path' is a quite commendable undertaking. I wish you all the best as it will not be an easy thing to acomplish in this modern world we live in.

[QUOTE]As for strengthening the chi, the short version is that the internal component of the practice involves forcing the chi flow through the tensed muscles, following the various circles of heaven and the associated meridians.[/QUOTE]

I would have to disagree with you on how these 49 exercises 'strengthen the qi'. However, I am not saying that the exercises cannot strengthen qi.
I guess what I disagree with is the idea that qi is 'forced through tense muscles'.
I guess that I always saw the I Chin Ching as supplementary exercises to other practices such as Qi Gong. The reason I disagree with the above quote is because it goes against most of the principles inherent within the IMA's. The main principle that I am thinking of is that qi cannot be forced. It has to be guided through a properly aligned and relaxed body.

This got me thinking, and I may have to experiment with this a bit now. What if I were to do the I Chin Ching with my emphasis on proper alignment and keeping the body relaxed. Would this just be yoga?

For those who are not familiar with the I Chin Ching; legend has it that these are the original 49 exercises that Bohidharma (TaMo) brought to the Shaolin Temple. The exercises are extremely similar to Hatha Yoga with the element of dynamic tension involved.

Regards
Chris
Posted by: nenipp

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 12:47 PM

Hey Fisherman!

Bodhidarma thaught the Shaolin monks no more than 18 exercises, the form is called the "18 hands of Luohan"

and the version of the form that I practice just happens to be the one and only original version!

Where on earth have you gotten the strange idea that he had 49 exercises?

ps: if you were to take this post with just a small grain of salt, I wouldn't hold that against you )

[This message has been edited by nenipp (edited 03-02-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 01:08 PM

Is it really important to you to ''know'' which version was actually the one Bodhidharma taught? I know that at one point in my life, it was important to me, too. I also know that, short of a time machine, there really is no way to ''know'' what really happened at the Little Tree temple 1500 years ago. I do know that it works for me, and that the 49 forms are what I was taught, and that the quality of my life and the lives of those around me is better for it. I'm sorry, but the other things just aren't as important to me. I wish you joy in your quest.

[This message has been edited by Chrisgraves99 (edited 03-02-2005).]
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 01:18 PM

nenipp,

IMHO, that is one of the problems with a lineage that is 1,000's of years old. Who is to say what Bohidharma really taught?

[QUOTE]Bodhidarma thaught the Shaolin monks no more than 18 exercises, the form is called the "18 hands of Luohan"[/QUOTE]

I think that the I Chin Ching is something completely different than the 18 Hands. However, I have never studied the 18 Hands, so I would not know.
Are the 18 hands martial forms? Or are they a set of exercises?

[QUOTE]Where on earth have you gotten the strange idea that he had 49 exercises?[/QUOTE]
Uhhhh, from the Kungfu school that I spent 5 years in. It was typed up in the very beginning of the manual. Whether they were right or wrong makes no difference to me at this point.

It is said that Bohidharma cut off his eyelids because he was irritated with himself for falling asleep while meditating. Where the eyelids landed, tea began to grow. Thus, we have tea to keep us awake!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Now you can't tell me that the stories and teachings havent been altered in the 1,000's of years since they were created.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 01:25 PM

Fisherman Chris, thank you for your kind words. Yes, it is difficult at times, but each time I encounter difficulties, sooner or later I (once again) realize that the ''difficulties'' are only difficult because of how I perceive them. ''How embarrassing; I'm suffering because of my own misconceptions of reality again!'' And yes, your beliefs about the chi do coincide with my own. I am unused to writing about this subject. Had I paid closer attention to my words, I hope that I would have been a bit more precise, and mentioned that it is not the chi that is strengthened, but my control over it's flow that is improved. Thank you for helping me to become a better communicator.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 01:31 PM

oh, Fisherman Chris, by the way, according to Master TheĀ“, the forms are in many ways externally the same as the yogic asanas, the primary difference being that one tenses into the I-Chin-Ching, whereas one relaxes into the asanas.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 02:56 PM

My instructor has us do I-Chin-Ching sometimes. Dennis Cook, he studies under Master Leonard. Unfortunately, I am still new (will be testing for green this month) so I still have a LOOONNNG way to go. I-chin imo is hard, but then again I am just starting out.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 04:26 PM

Chrisgraves99
[QUOTE]the primary difference being that one tenses into the I-Chin-Ching, whereas one relaxes into the asanas.[/QUOTE]

Very interesting. I wonder if the tensing is for more of the martial mind set. Thanks for the good post.

coxne,
Keep up the hard work! The kungfu that you are learning (even at green belt) opened quite a few doors for me and led me to where I am today.
Hmmm, green belt, those were interesting days. Do you learn Chei Chen (Fist of the Enlightened One) at green belt?

Enjoy!

Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/02/05 06:50 PM

what a small world crisg9 you know greg charles?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/03/05 12:04 AM

No, can't recall anyone by that name. Does he go by any other name?
Posted by: nenipp

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/03/05 12:30 AM

Hi chris&chris )

I'm surprised to say the least that you took my post that seriously, I honestly am!

No I don't care the least wether my form is the original or not (and quite frankly I'm 100% sure it's not), I was only teasing those who make similar claims, and I thought that was obvious!?

The 18 hands that I practice is a set of exercises, not a MA form, they use them in Choy Le Fut as some kind of supportive training I think.
I use it as a more physical aspect of my qigong training and only do it about once a week, not my favourite BTW
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/03/05 06:34 AM

nenipp,

[QUOTE]I was only teasing those who make similar claims, and I thought that was obvious!?[/QUOTE]

Ohhhhh, LOL!!!!
Yeah, I see where you are comming from.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/06/05 05:23 AM

Hi!
Is there any good literature about the I-Chin-Ching out there?
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/06/05 06:38 AM

You can try a google search for them online.
The book that I have is copyrighted material because it is my old Kungf training manual.

Good Luck

Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/06/05 09:49 AM

Kosh, I'm afraid you'll find much the same response wherever you look. There is some info in ''Shaolin-Do, Secrets from the Temple'' by Master James Halladay, but only a brief overview. Also there are less detailed references in Nagaboshi Tomio's ''Bodhisattva Warriors''. My teachers insisted that I not write down or publish any of the I-Chin-Ching, not out of any ''ancient Chinese Secret'' nonsense, but simply out of concern for the health and well-being of all new practitioners. Believe it or not, it is possible to cause great self-injury with any chi manipulation techniques if improperly applied. Your best bet is to find a good teacher. If there are none in your area, you may wish to move to a city where one is available. (how committed to your art ARE you? :-) ) Lacking that choice, I will be happy to help you, but it will take at least a year or so, and it is not easy.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/06/05 02:50 PM

Yes, I am aware of the dangers of improper practice, that is why I am careful when learning any kind of qigong.
There are no teachers in my entire country that I am aware of. The first time I heard of shaolin do was on this forum if I recall correctly.
Well, I find it hard to answer your question of how commited I am. I am very interested in I-Chin-Ching. How commited should I be? I don`t mind if it is hard. Sometimes something that is hard to do gives me even greater motivation.
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/07/05 05:46 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kosh:
Yes, I am aware of the dangers of improper practice, that is why I am careful when learning any kind of qigong.[/QUOTE]

Just FYI - The I Chin Ching set is not qigong.

[QUOTE]How commited should I be?[/QUOTE]
IMO, only commit to something once you have tried it out and see if it is right for you first.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/07/05 07:49 AM

Can anyone in rough layman terms describe what I-Chin-Ching is? I read "49 excersies based on muscle/tendon changes" which I don't understand.

Is this a conditioning excersize like iron shirt/palm/ect ect?

Also if it is similar to Hatha Yoga, then does that not make these external exercises? I was reading opening the energy gates, and the author (Frantzis) claims that hatha yoga develops the V-shaped style of body (Overdeveloped upperbody and arm muscles).

And if it involves tensing and muscle flexing...I don't understand how that would increase your chi flow...I thought that kind of movement inhibited it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/07/05 11:49 AM

Ok Hardluck,
In layman's terms, here it is. Yes, the I-Chin-Ching is externally similar to yoga, the primary difference externally being that one relaxes into the yogic forms (asanas) whereas one tenses into the I-Chin-Ching forms. From my point of view, which may not be very common, the muscle and tendon conditioning gained by the I-Chin-Ching is just a side-effect. For me, the most important benefits are internal and spiritual. Some basic assumptions about chi flow include the fact that chi flow is hampered or restricted by muscle tension. I agree with this assumption. A very rough analogy might be that if you were to practice kata under water, or with weights tied to your body, you would be practicing against resistance, and your muscular strength would increase, so that when you performed the same motion without resistance, there would be more strength available. In a similar fashion, forcing chi flow through tensed muscle groups and keeping concentration in extremely difficult poses allows one that much more power and focus when one is in a relaxed situation, such as a tournament match or a street combat situation. Does this help at all? Please feel free to contact me at chrisgraves99@yahoo.com for the rest of your questions.
-Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/07/05 02:35 PM

If I may...I think some folks are missing some of the aspects of the Yi Jin Jing in their descriptions...at least as far as I was taught.

You often hear this (Yi Jin Jing) referred to as the Tendon Changing Classic. But the name really means more than that and you might, depending on who taught it to you, hear it referred to as the "Sinew Metamorphosis". The "jin" in the Yi Jin Jing is actually a shortened form of "jin gu". Here jin refers to the sinews and gu refers to bones.

As I was taught this exercises set the primary purposes are as follows:

"...toning and energizing the muscles, tendons, and fasciae, on circulating energy through the twelve major organ meridians, on moving energy to the surface to enhance the guardian shield of wei(external)-qi, and on cultivating postnatal Fire energy..."

In a more condensed form, the ideal of the "tendon changing" or Sinew Metamorphosis is have a significant increase in power, flexibility and resilience of muscles and tendons that is brought about by packing and storing energy into the condensed form of connective tissues called fasciae (for those that don't know or don't have a reference like Gray's Anatomy handy, fasciae are flat, slippery, flexible tissues which envelop and lubricate all muscles, tendons, and ligaments). They (fasciae) have a concentrated electrolyte (mineralized fluids which conduct electric energy in ionic form) content. So, from a Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) perspective or paradigm, fasciae have "the capacity to absorb and store the electrically charged ion energy of Qi".

With that being said, a typical qigong (kiko) regime would be laid out as follows:

#1. Xaio Zhou Tian Qigong
Small Heavenly Circulation Energy Work
Shoshyuten Kiko for the Japanese/Okinawan Also called the Microcosmic Orbit
Designed to coordinate breathing with qi flow through the Conception Vessel (CV) and Governing Vessel (GV) and to fully open many points that are typically not fully open.

#2. Da Zhou Tian Qigong
Large Heavenly Circulation Energy Work
Daishyuten Kiko for the Japanese/Okinawan
Also called the Macrocosmic Orbit
Designed to expand the energy flow obtained in #1 through the upper and lower extremities, by way of the meridians.

#3. Yi Jin Jing Qigong
Muscle/Tendon Transforming Energy Work
Ekkin Kiko for the Japanese Okinawans
Purpose described above and to prepare for the Xi Shi Jing described below.

#4. Xi Sui Jing
Marrow Cleansing Energy Work
Senzui Kiko for the Japanese/Okinawans
Designed to "direct energy inwards into the bones and marrow and upwards into the spinal fluids and brain, build up reservoirs of energy in the eight extraordinary channels, and cultivate prenatal Water energy by transforming the original essence of hormones".

From there, more specific schools of qigong (that have some very special and/or specific goals) can be "tackled" as desired as you have built a wonder foundation or base to expand on.

The Yi Jin Jing is (to me) way mre complicated than seems to have been described here (again, my interpretation of what is being written/said). I have been to specific classes where hours have been spent on something as small or simple (for lack of better terms) as "Flicking the Fingers" and "Lifting the Sky".

But, as always, your mileage may vary and this is my understanding from my perspective and training (and glad that I take good notes on just about everything!).

Hope that is of some help...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/07/05 03:30 PM

In addition...the yoga analogy, IMVHO, is not a really good one.

While there is some cross over, the xue vs. marma (points), jingluo vs. nadi (energy channels or meridians) and qi vs. prana (internal energy) issues are quite different.

Basically, the Zhingyixue (Traditional Chinese Medicine) paradigm vs. the Ayurvedic paradigm is not one in the same.

Again, just an opinion to factor in (or out).

HTH!
Posted by: Fisherman

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/07/05 03:46 PM

Michael,

Man! Why didn't you post that earlier?!
Great information!!!

I made the yoga analogy because that was what I was told waaayyyyy back when.
The way the I Chin Ching was taught at the Shaolin Center I attended was a 1 day seminar per year in which the focus was on doing each of the postures. Not a whole lot of time was taken on the fine details.

Regards
Chris
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I-Chin-Ching - 03/08/05 09:46 AM

Chris:

I am glad that you found the response helpful in some way...it will be interesting to see what results it yields.

I've been really busy with work lately and getting ready for a big poker tournament in Vegas at the end of the month...so time is short and writing these longer responses is getting harder and harder.

Thanks again!